EPTWidow mine becomes weak as skill increases? - Page 6
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Prime Directive
United States186 Posts
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Vlare
748 Posts
On February 13 2013 02:32 Dvriel wrote: Really? One Widow Mine is 2 supply.Cannons built in mineral line are 0!!! Observers still 1 supply and allow enemy to kill the mine free with no damage. I only one widow mine drop makes you lose the game,you got big problem and its called macro and not WM. The Full Marines Medivac does much more damage.They can move,they can be healed,they can kill workers,units and even Structures!!!They are even cheaper,but nobody cries about this... I actually find it much easier to deal with a marine drop. You've got more time to react. You get a message saying you're being attacked, incase you missed mini map, and can pull probes. With widow mine, it's just losing all your probes if you didnt look at minimap. No need to bm my mechanics or ability to play, my macro isn't an issue thanks. A cannon at each base is 150/base and the forge for another 150 if you didnt have one already. So are you saying Protoss should be opening up super fast forge? Or we should go super fast robo vs gas. Currently a proxy factory makes a widow mine before an observer is on the map even. If we spend all our robo time/gas making observers (minimum 2-3) we won't have any units to deal with the actual push because we're so busy dealing with the potential of mines. I've had T do builds where they proxy widow mine or widow mine drop, then do a double drop. Hellbats in 1base, widow mines in the other. With current speed medivacs, Protoss cant' even kill the medis easilly before they get the drop off in the early'ish game. I really feel like you don't have a ton of experience with it from the Protoss PoV because it's actually very difficult to deal with against skilled opponents. It's not about supply, it actually has nothing to do with supply. In the early game, protoss doesnt want to be investing resources into cannons. The mines don't let us use our first obs to scout because the first obs has to deal with mines. This means we are essentially in the dark for a very long time. Stalker pressure also becomes obsolete with mines due to them dying in 1shot. Oracles are also out of the question. Current pvt openers vs gas feel like dt rush (coinflip vs mine opener) or robo expand, which isnt very economical. You can open air, but any safe T player will counter that with mines. | ||
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cydial
United States750 Posts
On February 09 2013 04:01 Zelniq wrote: Why is it that everyone just thinks of using widow mines as isolated units, away from your army? The strongest use of the widow mine is and will be when you have an army nearby to protect it, making it so you can't just set it off with 1 zergling, especially with the delay before it activates. Widow mines to support bio or mech armies is what makes it so powerful vs zerg. Watch the recent day9 dailies on it, xigua vs beastyQT Because having widow mines with your army makes your suffers from the splash of the mine? The strongest use of the widow mine is that it's gimmicky as hell. Unlike the tank, once the widow mine goes off it's useless for 10 seconds. It's annoying at best. | ||
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cydial
United States750 Posts
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Vlare
748 Posts
On February 14 2013 11:58 cydial wrote: Love the generalizations z and p players make telling Terran players what to do. What exactly are you talking about  | ||
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BlessedHammers
Canada19 Posts
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AlphaDotCom
United States43 Posts
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Blackknight232
United States169 Posts
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On February 16 2013 13:10 AlphaDotCom wrote: Widow mine drop and proxy factory mine are good at all skill level the latter slightly worse if they scout it obv. the fact that you can have a cloaked unit in opponents base before six minutes is silly Using your buildings to maintain vision within your own base aka SimCity is an important component of SC2 early game defense against T. no different than blocking the ramp against 6-pool. I hope Blizzard will be more open to this "silly" strategy by making it viable. Zerg is already viable due to their vision options of creep, overlords and 50 mineral units to take the watch towers. Terran's reapers are an expensive option, made much more viable than in WoL due to their speed increase. | ||
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Rowrin
United States280 Posts
Besides that, widow mines are pretty much useless as skill increases and as the players progress later into the game. Their only efficient use is early game to harass/defend harass and to hold off a 7-8 minute timing. After that, if you still have a few, you stick the ones you have left to guard mineral lines (Though you cant get too close without friendly fire decimating your scvs). They are pretty much supply sinks once the mid game kicks in. Players either poke with individual units if they know you have WM's, or have some type of detection with their army. However, that said I would think that at the extremely highest levels, widow mines complement bio armies + medvacs extremely well. Players that are good at moving the mines constantly, maneuvering around the map, keeping their opponent guessing and that are able to respond to small groups of units trying to snipe mines, may be able to get a better return out of them. It is just another aspect of terran that gets worse as you get better until you cross a massive skill gap. | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On February 16 2013 14:02 Rowrin wrote: IMO: They are good defensive unit to get early game to save gas and allow terran to focus on tech/upgrades. Besides that, widow mines are pretty much useless as skill increases and as the players progress later into the game. Their only efficient use is early game to harass/defend harass and to hold off a 7-8 minute timing. After that, if you still have a few, you stick the ones you have left to guard mineral lines (Though you cant get too close without friendly fire decimating your scvs). They are pretty much supply sinks once the mid game kicks in. Players either poke with individual units if they know you have WM's, or have some type of detection with their army. However, that said I would think that at the extremely highest levels, widow mines complement bio armies + medvacs extremely well. Players that are good at moving the mines constantly, maneuvering around the map, keeping their opponent guessing and that are able to respond to small groups of units trying to snipe mines, may be able to get a better return out of them. It is just another aspect of terran that gets worse as you get better until you cross a massive skill gap. I completely disagree with the last line. Even on a bad day, when using WM/Bio in TvZ I always get good hits with my Widow Mines. In TvP they're not so good, but in TvZ they're amazing no matter your skill level, and they steadily get better the better you are at positioning your Widow Mine/Bio. On February 14 2013 11:58 cydial wrote: Because having widow mines with your army makes your suffers from the splash of the mine? The strongest use of the widow mine is that it's gimmicky as hell. Unlike the tank, once the widow mine goes off it's useless for 10 seconds. It's annoying at best. If you spread and kite your Bio and Mines, the splash damage you take is minimal. | ||
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Vlare
748 Posts
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
You say as people get better mines will be less useful, but I see it as people get better, they will get better at using them  . Just like vultures in bw, those are not a 1a unit and require a LOT of practice to be useful. I personally feel they are easier to use than to play against, but I only played about 50 HotS games so I have no clue yet. | ||
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Novacute
Australia313 Posts
On February 13 2013 02:44 Prime Directive wrote: Another great strategy to beat a big mine field is dumping 10-20 infested terrans into the field spread out. After the mines trigger rush in with your army. I like the infestor's continued role as a siege breaker. I never thought of that. Added to the list of things to try when i roll zerg | ||
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p14c
Vatican City State431 Posts
If Blizzard really wants Terran to be a good defensive race they should fix the god damn Siege tanks and make Thors useful anti-air units. Thors are so bad they can't even fight mutas for god sake...Thors needs at least Ultra's armor and good AA DPS. | ||
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Vlare
748 Posts
On February 17 2013 03:04 p14c wrote: It's a gimmicky unit, a relocating turret with horrible DPS. I dont think it will get used at high level. It's too costly(food wise) for what it can do and there are too many detectors in game to be useful. And not only this, it also looks horrible. If Blizzard really wants Terran to be a good defensive race they should fix the god damn Siege tanks and make Thors useful anti-air units. Thors are so bad they can't even fight mutas for god sake...Thors needs at least Ultra's armor and good AA DPS. Not sure if this is a serious post. You can have Widow Mines in a protoss base before they have detection. Tell me why Terran shouldn't use this? There aren't that many detectors in the game that are available as early as widow mines are. Widow mines are strong both offensively and defensively. I'm not sure how much you ladder, or what your rank is on the ladder. But I promise, once you start playing the high masters/GM terrans, you will realize the potential that widow mines have. What exactly is gimicky about the unit? It has function all game long. | ||
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On February 17 2013 05:55 iky43210 wrote: window mines need a hold/stop attack function This is really the crux of the issue. Without the ability to counter-micro your opponent, there will be an effective skill cap to the unit. We're talking about increasing skill here, where it becomes harder (and riskier) to sneak a widow mine into a Protoss base and burrow it before they kill it, and Zergs have the APM to stagger their units before attacking. Yes, somebody can outplay you using the mines creatively, but they can also do that with drops or an all-in. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 17 2013 06:36 aksfjh wrote: This is really the crux of the issue. Without the ability to counter-micro your opponent, there will be an effective skill cap to the unit. We're talking about increasing skill here, where it becomes harder (and riskier) to sneak a widow mine into a Protoss base and burrow it before they kill it, and Zergs have the APM to stagger their units before attacking. Yes, somebody can outplay you using the mines creatively, but they can also do that with drops or an all-in. Every cloaked unit would profit from such a thing. Same for Swarm Hosts spawning locusts or Siege Tanks to prevent premature fire. However, I believe that this just turns the situation around. Right now these non-controllable effects make it possible for a clever/capable opponent to abuse them. With hold fire/spawn etc, it reduces the skillcap for the opponent, while it increases it for yourself. Also very important to mention in that context. You can control all of them. A cloaked unit can be forced to move instead of attacking, swarm hosts and widow mines can be unburrowed and tanks unsieged. Those mechanism just have a way higher skillcap than a hold fire button and also have other drawbacks. But for widow mines specifically: Drilling Claws and low priority are intented to help out with those drawbacks, allowing for better control through unburrow. | ||
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Tosster
Poland299 Posts
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