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Widow mine becomes weak as skill increases? - Page 7

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HeeroFX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2704 Posts
February 17 2013 16:59 GMT
#121
I think so, like if you see your terran going window mines you will be aware of it and adapt to it.
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-17 18:57:13
February 17 2013 18:56 GMT
#122
Same for Swarm Hosts spawning locusts


Not that I've actually checked since I tried zerg when I first got the beta (much like WoL I couldn't play them, like at all), but you can hold fire with the swarm hosts can't you?
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
DBS
Profile Joined July 2012
515 Posts
February 17 2013 19:03 GMT
#123
On February 16 2013 14:02 Rowrin wrote:
IMO: They are good defensive unit to get early game to save gas and allow terran to focus on tech/upgrades.

Besides that, widow mines are pretty much useless as skill increases and as the players progress later into the game. Their only efficient use is early game to harass/defend harass and to hold off a 7-8 minute timing. After that, if you still have a few, you stick the ones you have left to guard mineral lines (Though you cant get too close without friendly fire decimating your scvs). They are pretty much supply sinks once the mid game kicks in. Players either poke with individual units if they know you have WM's, or have some type of detection with their army.

However, that said I would think that at the extremely highest levels, widow mines complement bio armies + medvacs extremely well. Players that are good at moving the mines constantly, maneuvering around the map, keeping their opponent guessing and that are able to respond to small groups of units trying to snipe mines, may be able to get a better return out of them.

It is just another aspect of terran that gets worse as you get better until you cross a massive skill gap.


Im not good but widow-mine tank vs. P is absolutely sick. My opponents can generally not just lose units to the widowmines due to lack of control/detection, but they are great for protecting tanks. It really isn't that difficult, just put them right in front of the tanks
"a pitchfork is for hay. a trident is for killing bitches." -djwheat
magicallypuzzled
Profile Joined June 2011
United States588 Posts
February 17 2013 19:22 GMT
#124
People talking about how it'd be hard to trigger the widow mine with lings if the Terran plays right got me thinking. What if the Zerg used something else to trigger them? Something that is typically used for some thing completely different? Something that recently got a seemingly useless early game buff. Overlords with speed.

Make 6 or so extra Overlords with speed send them in from different directions to help prevent the marines from focusing them down before they are in the widow mines range. Now I know that's rather more expensive then lings but it's far less expensive then losing your entire army no? Also it's not uncommon for even high level pros to have a few hundred extra minerals at times. A possible weakness would be It'd be entirely possible for the Terran to kill them all if he had enough marines might mean using the overlords when he's tank heavy and lings when he's marine heavy or some such. What do you think would it be worth it to use Overlords like that I mean more so then it is at the moment sometimes it happens but it seems almost more of a after thought and only one at a time then a strategy meant specifically to counter low to mid numbers of widow mines.
is depressed
Vlare
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
748 Posts
February 17 2013 19:25 GMT
#125
On February 18 2013 04:22 magicallypuzzled wrote:
People talking about how it'd be hard to trigger the widow mine with lings if the Terran plays right got me thinking. What if the Zerg used something else to trigger them? Something that is typically used for some thing completely different? Something that recently got a seemingly useless early game buff. Overlords with speed.

Make 6 or so extra Overlords with speed send them in from different directions to help prevent the marines from focusing them down before they are in the widow mines range. Now I know that's rather more expensive then lings but it's far less expensive then losing your entire army no? Also it's not uncommon for even high level pros to have a few hundred extra minerals at times. A possible weakness would be It'd be entirely possible for the Terran to kill them all if he had enough marines might mean using the overlords when he's tank heavy and lings when he's marine heavy or some such. What do you think would it be worth it to use Overlords like that I mean more so then it is at the moment sometimes it happens but it seems almost more of a after thought and only one at a time then a strategy meant specifically to counter low to mid numbers of widow mines.


Because that costs 700/100 . That's a lot of ling/drone/queen and whatever else have you. Maybe in the later game when you've got a bank, sure. But in the early-midgame. You can't make that sink. You're better off sending in 1ling, or a burrowed roach or a changeling if those work.
Mass zerglings doesnt fail
magicallypuzzled
Profile Joined June 2011
United States588 Posts
February 17 2013 19:30 GMT
#126
On February 18 2013 04:25 Vlare wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2013 04:22 magicallypuzzled wrote:
People talking about how it'd be hard to trigger the widow mine with lings if the Terran plays right got me thinking. What if the Zerg used something else to trigger them? Something that is typically used for some thing completely different? Something that recently got a seemingly useless early game buff. Overlords with speed.

Make 6 or so extra Overlords with speed send them in from different directions to help prevent the marines from focusing them down before they are in the widow mines range. Now I know that's rather more expensive then lings but it's far less expensive then losing your entire army no? Also it's not uncommon for even high level pros to have a few hundred extra minerals at times. A possible weakness would be It'd be entirely possible for the Terran to kill them all if he had enough marines might mean using the overlords when he's tank heavy and lings when he's marine heavy or some such. What do you think would it be worth it to use Overlords like that I mean more so then it is at the moment sometimes it happens but it seems almost more of a after thought and only one at a time then a strategy meant specifically to counter low to mid numbers of widow mines.


Because that costs 700/100 . That's a lot of ling/drone/queen and whatever else have you. Maybe in the later game when you've got a bank, sure. But in the early-midgame. You can't make that sink. You're better off sending in 1ling, or a burrowed roach or a changeling if those work.


too an extent it depends on how all in the terran is doesn't it? if it's basically just pressure then maybe you would have to find a different way of dealing with it I am not trying to say its an all situations fix but it might have it's place right?
is depressed
SoFrOsTy
Profile Joined December 2011
United States525 Posts
February 17 2013 19:30 GMT
#127
Good terrain unburrow before the bait then reburrow when zerg moves in. With one second burrow time it works great.
Julyzerg ftw
magicallypuzzled
Profile Joined June 2011
United States588 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-17 19:37:42
February 17 2013 19:35 GMT
#128
On February 18 2013 04:30 SoFrOsTy wrote:
Good terrain unburrow before the bait then reburrow when zerg moves in. With one second burrow time it works great.


with banelings and good creep spread I would think that would be rather difficult to pull off with out getting your widow mines killed.
is depressed
Vlare
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
748 Posts
February 17 2013 19:35 GMT
#129
On February 18 2013 04:30 magicallypuzzled wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2013 04:25 Vlare wrote:
On February 18 2013 04:22 magicallypuzzled wrote:
People talking about how it'd be hard to trigger the widow mine with lings if the Terran plays right got me thinking. What if the Zerg used something else to trigger them? Something that is typically used for some thing completely different? Something that recently got a seemingly useless early game buff. Overlords with speed.

Make 6 or so extra Overlords with speed send them in from different directions to help prevent the marines from focusing them down before they are in the widow mines range. Now I know that's rather more expensive then lings but it's far less expensive then losing your entire army no? Also it's not uncommon for even high level pros to have a few hundred extra minerals at times. A possible weakness would be It'd be entirely possible for the Terran to kill them all if he had enough marines might mean using the overlords when he's tank heavy and lings when he's marine heavy or some such. What do you think would it be worth it to use Overlords like that I mean more so then it is at the moment sometimes it happens but it seems almost more of a after thought and only one at a time then a strategy meant specifically to counter low to mid numbers of widow mines.


Because that costs 700/100 . That's a lot of ling/drone/queen and whatever else have you. Maybe in the later game when you've got a bank, sure. But in the early-midgame. You can't make that sink. You're better off sending in 1ling, or a burrowed roach or a changeling if those work.


too an extent it depends on how all in the terran is doesn't it? if it's basically just pressure then maybe you would have to find a different way of dealing with it I am not trying to say its an all situations fix but it might have it's place right?


If you're being all in'd maybe. It really depends on the specific situation. But I don't think it will ever become a staple. It's one of those cute things you see sometimes
Mass zerglings doesnt fail
magicallypuzzled
Profile Joined June 2011
United States588 Posts
February 17 2013 19:45 GMT
#130
On February 18 2013 04:35 Vlare wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2013 04:30 magicallypuzzled wrote:
On February 18 2013 04:25 Vlare wrote:
On February 18 2013 04:22 magicallypuzzled wrote:
People talking about how it'd be hard to trigger the widow mine with lings if the Terran plays right got me thinking. What if the Zerg used something else to trigger them? Something that is typically used for some thing completely different? Something that recently got a seemingly useless early game buff. Overlords with speed.

Make 6 or so extra Overlords with speed send them in from different directions to help prevent the marines from focusing them down before they are in the widow mines range. Now I know that's rather more expensive then lings but it's far less expensive then losing your entire army no? Also it's not uncommon for even high level pros to have a few hundred extra minerals at times. A possible weakness would be It'd be entirely possible for the Terran to kill them all if he had enough marines might mean using the overlords when he's tank heavy and lings when he's marine heavy or some such. What do you think would it be worth it to use Overlords like that I mean more so then it is at the moment sometimes it happens but it seems almost more of a after thought and only one at a time then a strategy meant specifically to counter low to mid numbers of widow mines.


Because that costs 700/100 . That's a lot of ling/drone/queen and whatever else have you. Maybe in the later game when you've got a bank, sure. But in the early-midgame. You can't make that sink. You're better off sending in 1ling, or a burrowed roach or a changeling if those work.


too an extent it depends on how all in the terran is doesn't it? if it's basically just pressure then maybe you would have to find a different way of dealing with it I am not trying to say its an all situations fix but it might have it's place right?


If you're being all in'd maybe. It really depends on the specific situation. But I don't think it will ever become a staple. It's one of those cute things you see sometimes


What I am thinking is Zergs get the 100/100 for overlord speed earlier then they usually would just as a precaution and then if they scout a situation where it'd be useful. They probably will have the time to make the extra overlords before the attack actually hits. This also lets you tailor it to how ever many mines the terran actually has. That way the cost isn't too prohibitive before hand but it is fairly easy to make the required costs latter on if they need it. Also if the Zerg is ahead like they'll want to be economy wise then the Zerg can actually come out better off maybe?
is depressed
tehemperorer
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2183 Posts
February 17 2013 21:12 GMT
#131
WM/Tank is real good vs Protoss... if P is shooting your mines, scan... your viking will blow up the obs and you can take another base. You just have to defend any two base P and you're golden.
Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers.
nomyx
Profile Joined June 2012
United States2205 Posts
February 24 2013 23:56 GMT
#132
Pro players will adapt to it for sure. I've even see zergs researching the early overlord speed just to have a few overlords bait out a few widow mine shots.
EyesOnMe
Profile Joined February 2013
57 Posts
February 25 2013 14:34 GMT
#133
Poll: Do you think that WM becomes weaker as players' skill increases?

No (31)
 
65%

Yes (17)
 
35%

48 total votes

Your vote: Do you think that WM becomes weaker as players' skill increases?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No


ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12387 Posts
February 25 2013 14:56 GMT
#134
I actually think it gets stronger depending on who is using it.
The unit has so much utility in it, it can be offensive and defensive.

The only issue is that it is currently even better than tanks for zoning and therefore overlapping the roles slightly

The amount of multi tasking needed to get rid of widow mines drop in late game is really high, while traditionally terran has to micro the units for the units, for mines you are just burrowing.
Zerg has to defend it by either already have spores and spines (that would require no attention at all)
If not, they will need to morph/find the overseer, move the drones away and wait for the overseer to come and kill it off.

With the medivac speed boost and this different style of drops, terran has a really powerful multi prone drop style, taxing the multi tasking of the opponent heavily
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
Garfailed
Profile Joined May 2011
Netherlands409 Posts
February 25 2013 15:07 GMT
#135
Watch the GSL matches today.

+ Show Spoiler +
Ganzi rocked dem mines, super exciting play
A3mercury
Profile Joined June 2012
United States26 Posts
March 03 2013 03:16 GMT
#136
I do believe that because of, depending on the situation of course, how the zerg can a-move their entire army in for an attack, the WMs force zergs to engage in a more creative way. You can't just roll everything in and cast fungles anymore(at least at my level).
"Obsession is a word the lazy say to describe the dedicated."
DeCoup
Profile Joined September 2006
Australia1933 Posts
March 03 2013 06:07 GMT
#137
On February 18 2013 03:56 Qikz wrote:
Show nested quote +
Same for Swarm Hosts spawning locusts


Not that I've actually checked since I tried zerg when I first got the beta (much like WoL I couldn't play them, like at all), but you can hold fire with the swarm hosts can't you?

Yes. And you can hold position with mines too, but you have to actively do it with mines (1 click every second or so), but with swarm hosts its a toggle.
"Poor guy. I really did not deserve that win. So this is what it's like to play Protoss..." - IdrA
9-BiT
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States1089 Posts
March 03 2013 17:12 GMT
#138
widow mines should be used similar to offensive burrowed banelings. Plant them behind your army, stutter step or just run, profit.
kwark_uk: @father_sc learn to play maybe?
TheRabidDeer
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States3806 Posts
March 03 2013 17:31 GMT
#139
On February 18 2013 04:35 magicallypuzzled wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2013 04:30 SoFrOsTy wrote:
Good terrain unburrow before the bait then reburrow when zerg moves in. With one second burrow time it works great.


with banelings and good creep spread I would think that would be rather difficult to pull off with out getting your widow mines killed.

So in the early game the zerg has really good creep spread, expansions, a 100/100 upgrade (just in case) banelings and hundreds of extra minerals on units that arent fighting units just to handle a few widow mines? Those same widow mines that can be unburrowed and retreated if they see the OL's coming? Widow mines arent way out in front, they are near their army.
On February 25 2013 23:34 EyesOnMe wrote:
Poll: Do you think that WM becomes weaker as players' skill increases?

No (31)
 
65%

Yes (17)
 
35%

48 total votes

Your vote: Do you think that WM becomes weaker as players' skill increases?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No



Weaker? Yes, unquestionably. Weak? Hell no, they are still strong.
Frostfire
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States419 Posts
March 03 2013 17:47 GMT
#140
When I used them, I literally stagger them from the beginning of my ramp from the nat on maps like Daybreak, to the opposing middle base that's exposed. This way, I can run my army back while stutter-stepping, and it just adds pain to the army that I'm stuttering against. I have completely exchanged tanks for widow mines, unless it's something like mass roach
"In solitude, we are least alone"
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