EPTnot just have them isolated
Widow mine becomes weak as skill increases? - Page 2
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS |
|
Drake
Germany6146 Posts
not just have them isolated | ||
|
Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On February 09 2013 06:29 FlyingBeer wrote: As others have mentioned, Zerg can't trigger the mines with just one zergling without it dying to cover fire before reaching the mine. My guess is, the player will have to send a minimum of 5 lings to trigger one mine, adding on 2 or 3 for each additional mine. This means mines are, at minimum, trading cost-effectively in mid-game. If Zerg slips up even once, then they can easily lose 1500 minerals/gas worth of units. It's absolutely ridiculous. Terran shouldn't have a unit that counters every single pre-Hive unit Zerg has. Can you use Locusts to trigger them? The recent day9 dailies are quite illustrative. In the first game, I have no idea how the Zerg player was supposed to keep from losing his third. He only stayed competitive because of the gold base in the center is imbalanced towards Zerg. In the second game, the Zerg player does a ton of damage with lings, killing off all the SCVs at the player's natural, then gets an even bigger advantage with mutas that catch Beastly completely off-guard. Day[9] never showed the worker counts, but I'm guessing Beastly was at least 15 workers behind of where he needed to be. At the pro level, that should be an almost insurmountable loss especially since Star Station has that wide open third that's very favorable to the Zerg. Despite this, Beastly is able to harass with four fully loaded medivacs while holding off ultra/ling attacks with just mines and a few marauders. I don't think a fifteen worker loss should be insurmountable though. If it is in WoL and isn't in HotS, I'd say that's a success. Comebacks from counter-harassment seem like a good thing... You could argue that it didn't require enough skill to justify the comeback though, and that widow mine drops are too good, but having opportunities for a players to make more back and forth games is a good thing in my book. | ||
|
MasterCynical
505 Posts
They just run over marines if they just Amove, but cost efficiency goes down by quite a lot when marines are split. You have to use the widow mines with your main army so that you dont get ran over by micro. | ||
|
Buff345
United States323 Posts
On February 09 2013 07:08 Gfire wrote: Can you use Locusts to trigger them? I don't think a fifteen worker loss should be insurmountable though. If it is in WoL and isn't in HotS, I'd say that's a success. Comebacks from counter-harassment seem like a good thing... You could argue that it didn't require enough skill to justify the comeback though, and that widow mine drops are too good, but having opportunities for a players to make more back and forth games is a good thing in my book. Yes, they are triggered by Locusts, assuming they get into range. Locusts are actually pretty tough so it happens often against me at least. | ||
|
DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
The myth that they are worse in the late game (or not worth the supply) might be part of this. They are a splash unit and because of this they should increase in utility as the games goes on. Their attack is also considered a spell so enemy armor upgrades do not effect them. But the main reason we are seeing a decrease in their strength atm is that a lot of widow mine users are having a lot of success with the more gimmicky attacks like mine rushes and mine drops, and lucky defensive positioning from drops. Eventually we will see mine users skill increase in more 'standard' play with the mines based on baiting the enemy over them, placing them on retreat paths, placing them on the 'cut in' path between your army, your armies attack target and the opponents army etc. (See recent Day9 vids for examples of this type of use). This is how skill has developed with most units in the game. Skill generally adapts in a back and forth manner slowly reaching an averaged point where both use and defense are at a decent point across the board. But this takes years not weeks of a beta. | ||
|
DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
On February 09 2013 06:29 FlyingBeer wrote: As others have mentioned, Zerg can't trigger the mines with just one zergling without it dying to cover fire before reaching the mine. My guess is, the player will have to send a minimum of 5 lings to trigger one mine, adding on 2 or 3 for each additional mine. This means mines are, at minimum, trading cost-effectively in mid-game. If Zerg slips up even once, then they can easily lose 1500 minerals/gas worth of units. It's absolutely ridiculous. Terran shouldn't have a unit that counters every single pre-Hive unit Zerg has. Zerg does have quite a few options to set them off. - x lings (based on the number of units covering the mine - Locusts (which represent 0 loss) - Overlords/Overseers take 2 hits. I have seen Zergs fly 8 overlords over and enemy location to absorb all the mines then move in with their army. Since overlords cost 0 supply and 100 minerals they can become a more cost effective choice then lings quite quickly. - Infested Terrans; 1 infestor can disable up to 8 mines using an infested terran. With a sufficient tank count this can be dropped to 4 mines per infestor. - Burrow move roaches; If you sneak a burrowed mine to within range of a mine then quickly unburrow and reburrow the mine fires at you but (provided they enemy does not have detection on the roach) only the splash hits the roach. Because of this a single roach can knock out multiple mines or even survive the mine + a couple of hits from units covering the mine. - Hydra; Tanks need to be scary close to a mine to be able to hit a hydra while it can shoot at a mine and risk being clouded. Late Game; Brood lords and ultras can both take out multiple mines. | ||
|
Noocta
France12578 Posts
| ||
|
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On February 09 2013 04:01 Zelniq wrote: Why is it that everyone just thinks of using widow mines as isolated units, away from your army? The strongest use of the widow mine is and will be when you have an army nearby to protect it, making it so you can't just set it off with 1 zergling, especially with the delay before it activates. Widow mines to support bio or mech armies is what makes it so powerful vs zerg. Watch the recent day9 dailies on it, xigua vs beastyQT This. I am not sure why terrans have that mind set either. The terrans I have found this composition really strong verse were players like beastyqt who use widow mines with the bio ball. It's so strong and you can't set it off with 1 ling because his armies right there preventing that. | ||
|
Kambing
United States1176 Posts
On February 09 2013 09:40 Noocta wrote: I think free units like Locust and Infested terran don't set Widow Mines off. They do. | ||
|
rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On February 09 2013 02:43 MockHamill wrote: A few weeks ago I would go widow mine/air and have a 70% win rate vs Zerg. Zerg players tried to go for BroodLords/Corruptor or Ultras and widow mines + viking/bansehee/raven would work great against both. Then lately every player seems to have learned how to bait widow mines with a few units then go in with their whole army and wipe out the widow mines field after they have fired. Is this the future of widow mines? They will be strong against weak players that try to a-move over them without thought, but close to useless in mid game or late game battles against better opponents? If anyone is still successful with widow mines past early game against good opponents please describe in detail how you use them. If you are actually asking "Can I only make Widow Mines and win every single game?" The answer is no and that is a good thing. Early on they can be really strong in certain pushes and the later it gets the weaker they become in direct engagements.. They are intended to take care of counter attack paths and secure expansions... | ||
|
aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On February 09 2013 04:10 avilo wrote: I cautioned this at the very start of beta. I said and repeatedly tried to give feedback to blizzard, the widow mine is a flawed unit. It's strong early game-ish but the longer the game goes, the shittier and more non-existent the unit becomes when the higher tech units come into play. In the first months of beta/release, the widow mine will seem OK, but as players figure out the game and games lengthen into longer macro games, there will 100% be a problem and the unit will be shown to have an extremely flawed design - the main thing being that it costs 2 supply making your army weaker the longer the game goes, and the more of them you have in your army. The mine also seems extremely OP vs low skill level players, but vs masters level to pro level the mine will end up looking worthless. Already wrote many posts about this, here and on the pro forums, as well as mentioning it in videos. I'm sure others have as well to an extent, but blizzard does not seem to recognize this as an issue. The other issue is these don't really work well with a Terran deathball, while all of the other new additions and buffs to Protoss and Zerg actually enhance those lategame deathballs. Terran is left out in the cold again. The dumbest thing about mines is that they're balanced with low level play in mind. They're "strong" at that level, but crap like banelings, storm, fungals, and colossi are broken as shit (but balanced at the pro level). But I've learned that we can't have nice things as Terran, so whatever. | ||
|
aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On February 09 2013 09:41 blade55555 wrote: This. I am not sure why terrans have that mind set either. The terrans I have found this composition really strong verse were players like beastyqt who use widow mines with the bio ball. It's so strong and you can't set it off with 1 ling because his armies right there preventing that. Because it suffers from the same crap as tanks that is "friendly fire." I'm not sure if people really grasp how bad friendly fire can wreck a Terran army. I know people that play the other races KNOW it exists, but have never really experienced their whole, slowly remade, army evaporating under their own attacks. It makes the unforgiving micro of Terran that much more unforgiving. Not only that, but why would you ever chase down a Terran army to get caught in widow mines? In most cases, you're not afraid of the Terran regrouping for an even stronger attack. You're waiting for your "trump card" to come out, whether it's storm, colossus, infestors, or ultras. You're usually biding time against a Terran and not rushing into an engagement with them. | ||
|
sagefreke
United States241 Posts
| ||
|
Tuczniak
1561 Posts
On February 09 2013 10:53 aksfjh wrote: You are chasing because they are ranged and most of zergs units are melee. I remember games bio vs muta/ling/bling, when the engagement was all the way from zerg base to terran base. If mines are used with bio it's just matter of using them right. Yes, you can get caught with friendly fire, but in the most situations mines are great additon.Because it suffers from the same crap as tanks that is "friendly fire." I'm not sure if people really grasp how bad friendly fire can wreck a Terran army. I know people that play the other races KNOW it exists, but have never really experienced their whole, slowly remade, army evaporating under their own attacks. It makes the unforgiving micro of Terran that much more unforgiving. Not only that, but why would you ever chase down a Terran army to get caught in widow mines? In most cases, you're not afraid of the Terran regrouping for an even stronger attack. You're waiting for your "trump card" to come out, whether it's storm, colossus, infestors, or ultras. You're usually biding time against a Terran and not rushing into an engagement with them. | ||
|
Rowrin
United States280 Posts
Here's what I basically use them for: TvT: drop one near your mineral line and 4 or so marines. makes those annoying battle hellino drops a lot easier to deal with since it locks onto the medvac and marines should clean it up. TvP: pretty much same thing as above, just with a missle turret to deal with oracles. TvZ: mutas, though it is kinda iffy. Other than that, if you have tanks there is no real reason to have widow mines in your army. I suppose if terran is going bio heavy and they have an idle factory it would be worth getting them since more often then not they pay for themselves anyway. All in all, the unit isn't bad by any means, it just isn't spectacular. | ||
|
TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On February 09 2013 04:01 Zelniq wrote: The strongest use of the widow mine is and will be when you have an army nearby to protect it, making it so you can't just set it off with 1 zergling, especially with the delay before it activates. Widow mines to support bio or mech armies is what makes it so powerful vs zerg. This is so true, Terran players using widow mines/bio with some tanks are devastating me at the moment. It's a matter of skill on the part of both players, but mines are certainly useful in TvZ. | ||
|
FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
And something that shots randomly every 40 seconds is pretty high risk Imo, especially with a 2 supply cost. And it is also the normal direction that it took ages for people to realize how easy they are to trigger aswell as it will take even longer for people to realize that you can actually unborrow them fast enough and get a few units for free. Will be alot slow back and forth. Or Blizzard will step in throw a nerf and maybe turn off the unit, like they did with the reaper in WoL or a buff like they did to the Immortal, that destroyed mech. But hey lazy people could use the Immortal now like people that knew how to micro them before. Or everyone agrees on it being bad, till someone finds a use for it. Like the wings Voidray/Carrier. Voidray/Carrier went the same path in HotS as the Immortal did in WoL though. | ||
|
vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On February 09 2013 06:29 FlyingBeer wrote: As others have mentioned, Zerg can't trigger the mines with just one zergling without it dying to cover fire before reaching the mine. My guess is, the player will have to send a minimum of 5 lings to trigger one mine, adding on 2 or 3 for each additional mine. This means mines are, at minimum, trading cost-effectively in mid-game. If Zerg slips up even once, then they can easily lose 1500 minerals/gas worth of units. It's absolutely ridiculous. Terran shouldn't have a unit that counters every single pre-Hive unit Zerg has. The recent day9 dailies are quite illustrative. In the first game, I have no idea how the Zerg player was supposed to keep from losing his third. He only stayed competitive because of the gold base in the center is imbalanced towards Zerg. In the second game, the Zerg player does a ton of damage with lings, killing off all the SCVs at the player's natural, then gets an even bigger advantage with mutas that catch Beastly completely off-guard. Day[9] never showed the worker counts, but I'm guessing Beastly was at least 15 workers behind of where he needed to be. At the pro level, that should be an almost insurmountable loss especially since Star Station has that wide open third that's very favorable to the Zerg. Despite this, Beastly is able to harass with four fully loaded medivacs while holding off ultra/ling attacks with just mines and a few marauders. I don't know why avilo keeps complaining about late game supply issues. He can just destroy the mines and switch to something else if he has to. Does the uselessness of banshees, hellions, roaches, banelings, mutas, and phoenixes in the late game prevent players from using them in the mid game? I don't think avilo is complaining about just WM. The issue is this asymmetric balance BS from Blizzard. As we can see in WoL TvZ, terrans were OP (2011) because they had so many early/mid game timings. But then once the maps, buffs, player skill got to a point which these timings are less effective, terran's weakness in the late game units showed. But with WM, blizzard is buffing the Terran early mid game while Zerg gets t2/3 units. So the affect is likely that either Terran is OP again and dominate zergs again on 2 base pushes or it gets to macro game and Zerg just runs the Terran over. And no one what's to see either again. | ||
|
larse
1611 Posts
| ||
|
Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On February 09 2013 04:53 zeratul_jf wrote: I dont know about this. If anyone is watching QXC vs Leiya he just basically massed out like 30+ widow mine and destroyed her army. He made them look a bit OP Fact: Any shift in a paradigm will incur massive losses to those unable to adjust. See Terran who fails to master splitting vs. banelings play. | ||
| ||
