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United States4883 Posts
On January 18 2013 23:27 sunglasseson wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 16:17 SC2John wrote:On January 18 2013 16:01 sunglasseson wrote:On January 18 2013 15:26 Novacute wrote:
There are a few solutions, control groups exclusively to powerful casters eg. 1 for HT 2 for Sentry. OR you could play like some other pros who MANUALLY select the caster and cast them whilst quickly selecting the army group right after to continue micro. A lot of players do the latter, especially Protoss players because they have alot of scattered Hts. The good thing about hots is that it further increases the skill cap that's been reached in WoL by forcing more individual unit control and widening the caster base. This is a good thing for esports. Leave it alone. unless one race needs to use 4+ casters very effectively and the other doesnt use more then 1. also wouldnt the game be better if every unit could be used well and more importantly fast? its slower to click 1 tab storm then 4 storm its even slower to hit 2 tab use mothership core in some way then click 1 tab and storm. its just clunky Your argument is officially invalid. It might seem clunky to you because you aren't used to the mechanics needed to play Starcraft, but there's absolutely no reason why manually clicking units and casters can't be utilized with a fair amount of ease. From what you're saying, the problem is not the game being clunky, it's you. I'm not flaming you, I just really think you should take the suggestions in this thread: Everyone in this thread has made great suggestions including using minimap more, putting only important casters on hotkeys, individually clicking casters and units, putting units like MsC, observers, or warp prisms on follow commands, etc, all of which are fairly simple and elegant solutions, though they may not necessarily be easy to learn or implement into your gameplay. yes add your pov with a condescending stab. again, theres a high likelyhood im a better player then you being that ive been top masters as all the races. the problem i have with tab is quality of life. 5 casters with 3 of them playing the same keybind role are stupid. you can go watch pro games where the casters such as templar and infestors VERY commonly die when they did not at all have to die but thats the nature of the pros keybind/caster/other unit relationship when using tab its insanely clunky and lacks fluidity. as someone who likes to use the hotkeys over boxing it means i have to box more but it doesnt mean its good for the game to each his own i suppose but it does cause problems that can be avoided. the only arguement i can see is "ur making it easier" have u played sc2 tho? sc2 is SOOOOO easy. you can put an entire army on 1 keybind and have success.... people can get GM with 1 army bind also i didnt mean pros used the 0 number bind i meant they used no keybinds... its a zerg i forget who it was tho
I suppose the problem I have is that you seem to have your fingers in your ears and just keep yelling, "it's clunky" when pretty much 90% of the people in this forum either straight-up disagree, or are giving you good advice on how to deal with it in a better manner. If you watch pros totally on top of their game, they don't suicide casters; I'm fairly certain I've never seen Stephano lose a chunk of infestors because of bad hotkeys. Quite honestly, top players can micro almost entirely with the mouse, using they keyboard only for hotkeys. I don't see how eliminating the keyboard out of the equation can be considered clunky or that somehow you can't make it comfortable over time.
In my honest opinion, SC2 makes players WAY too overdependent on hotkeys because of the unlimited selection and smartcasting. As a result, a lot of players are a lot worse than they could be, and unable or unwilling to rely on simply clicking faster and more accurately to micro and macro.
In a way, I suppose my real problem is that being reliant on hotkeys ONLY (which you appear to do) is what's causing the clunkiness, and whatever suggestion people are making in this thread, you're simply throwing out as "Oh, you just don't want the game to be easier. I want to continue playing MY way, because I'm a top masters with every race and I have GREAT mechanics that don't need to be improved." Again, I'm honestly not flaming, I'm just really super irritated by your attitude lol.
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On January 18 2013 13:31 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
You can set hotkeys using ctrl plus the 1-9 keys. This problem doesn't exist if you use more than 1 hotkey.
On January 18 2013 13:58 zhurai wrote:
Use more hotkeys.
Using more hotkeys actually does nothing in regards to using abilities, as cycling through all available abilities with Tab requires the same amount of commands.
For example, an army with Marines (Stim), Ghost (EMP), Raven (PDD), and Siege Tanks (Siege).
One control group:
Select Control Group 1 (CG1) -> PDD -> Tab -> EMP -> Tab -> Stim -> Tab -> Siege (8 Commands)
Two control groups:
Select CG1 -> PDD -> Tab -> EMP -> Select CG2 -> Stim -> Tab -> Siege (8 Commands)
Four control groups:
Select CG1 -> PDD -> Select CG2 -> EMP -> Select CG3 -> Stim -> Select CG4 -> Siege (8 Commands)
The only thing more hotkeys does is that you can individually move each group. Which is useful and necessary in a lot of situations, but it doesn't make casting more accessible than using a single control group. (which was the point of the OP i guess)
The problem with the OP's solution however is that the spells won't fit on the command card cuz there are too many. And obviously certain hotkeys overlap.
You could fix the first problem by simply not showing the abilities in the command card. There are a few ways to fix the overlap between hotkeys, but they're all pretty complicated so i don't think it would be any better than the current system.
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I think this would lowe the mechanical skill ceiling on Protoss too much. Currently, caster management is the main, most important form of micro for Protoss. Having that caster management actually be a mechanical challenge is one of the few things that separates good players from bad.
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In BW, spellcasting was hard and clunky as fuck, which was what made it impressive when someone like Jangbi hits perfect stom after perfect storm. Spellcasting is already a fair bit easier in SC2, I don't see a lot of benefit to making it easier.
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There are more things than activated abilities when it comes to unit controls if you ask me. Often you don't want to a-move units without babysitting their formations a bit or preparing a defensive position. You want to target fire with colossus and archons as well as do your best to get surrounds with zealots.
Most importantly, the way you want to use your units will vary from situation to situation. What I find is best is 1-2 controlgroups for the core of the army and then 1-2 additional ones for units outside of your core (phoenix, prisms and anything that does harassment). This way you move all units at the same time but once youare actually in a fight, you need to micro manage by drag selecting or ctrl selecting units.
The drawback is that you can make mistakes in selections, but you can do that with hotkeys as well in my experience. The benefit is that there is no limitation to this kind of controlling, it allows for everything.
Every now and then you want to blink small parts of stalkers, or separate a small army to go deal with a drop. Then your hotkeys can't help you anyway so why not get used to the idea of always selecting manually? This is what works for me anyway.
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um this is not even a issue, Theres only like 1 or 2 new caster units in HOTS.....Just sounds like you need to review how to play correctly, Day 9 video on hotkeys should help you out.
For example I play Grid zerg, I bind 7/8 to my 2 mouse buttons as alt keys, if I need to make vipers And infestors.
Protoss always had to use sep hot keys for sentries/blink stalkers, should not be a issue. It's part of the game, I mean if you want to just use 1 control group for all your units and A move across the map, it aint gonna happen/
Have to learn to micro manage your hotkeys/units Read few basic day 9 videos on hot keys then adapt to what feels good for you. You need multi control groups anyway for all 3 races for flanks, proper unit placement ect.
most pros rebind constantly unit groups thru out the game depending on what happens, most pros start with 2 control groups for units in the early game and add 2/3 more as the game progresses, I watch Supernova play HOTS he has like 4-5 control groups for units in the super late game, for his air/ghost/flanks of bio ect ect.
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On January 18 2013 13:54 Thirsty wrote:
I agree that there are too many casters/abilities in this game.. It would be more interesting if we had more straight up units that we could optimize with control/positioning/micro instead of pressing t and clicking somewhere.
The hotkey situation is a little annoying, and definitely a barrier for some but I don't think it's the main problem here ^^ Although I feel like it's one blizzard would be more likely to realize/answer
yeah it really seems like it's turning into a micro game, having perfect macro is now something you must have at mid-high masters level
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EPT
