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Void Ray
We haven't seen many players microing against the Void Ray's Prismatic Alignment ability, even among the highest rated players in the HotS Beta. In order to encourage more precise micro against this ability, we've decided to display a timer on the Void Ray for the duration of the effect. We're hoping to see players pull their units back against Prismatic Alignment, and re-engage once the ability is on cooldown.
We also felt that Void Rays were too strong in the late game for their supply cost, so we decided to increase this requirement by 1
-David Kim
This thread is for discussion of the Void Ray, since its a unit that has undergone so many tweaks recently. Where does the unit stand right now? Is Blizzard Going in the right direction with them? Where should they be going with them?
The Void Ray got a major buff not so many patches ago, and Blizzard is trying to tone them down.
As a Protoss, I believe this is the right move. Void Rays are extremely strong at the moment. And while I very much enjoy having a core stargate unit that actually feels powerful, in certain circumstances I--and Blizzard as well, evidently--think they're a bit too strong.
The Supply Cost change is sort of self-explanatory, and I think very warranted. Previously, Void Rays cost 84 minerals and 50 gas per 1 supply...which was much higher than even capital ships, and in mineral cost per supply was actually the highest in the game. This made them sort of like the anti-Roach--where Roaches are super cheap per supply and therefore great for early and midgame pushes but worse and worse as the game goes on and players have the chance to get maxed with more expensive units, Void Rays allowed players to pack far more resources into a single air force than was possible for any other race. Reducing their utility in the deathball is very much a good thing.
I think the idea behind the timer change on Void Rays is a good one...but I'm not sure this is the most elegant or effective way to go about fixing it. For one thing, having a bunch of timers clogging up the view in the middle of a battle is visually clunky and distracting.
But for another, I think it misses the real reason why players rarely try to pull back against Void Rays. After all, its not like skilled players can't tell when someone has triggered charge. They aren't morons.
No, the real reason no one micros away from Voids and baits charges is that Blizzard specifically gave Void Rays a mechanic that makes it extremely difficult to pull back when you engage them.
Void Rays have 6 range. But when they engage, that range is extended to 8--meaning if you attack Voids and try to pull back, you're guaranteed to take additional damage. And when charged, Void Ray dps is so high (especially vs units like Stalkers) that in the time it takes to pull back Voids will already have caused a serious amount of damage.
This extended range mechanic made sense when Voids needed to charge up by attacking at length, since otherwise it would be too easy to micro away to prevent them from getting charged. But they don't charge up that way anymore. Now the player controls when they're charged, and Blizzard has said they really want to see opponents exploiting that by baiting charges, then pulling back and letting them run out before reengaging.
Given that, isn't a far more sensible, elegant and intuitive solution, to simply remove the legacy mechanic of extended range once the engagement starts? Just give them 6 range flat. This would let Voids keep their new damage and powerful charge mechanics--but it would actually make countermicro possible.
What do you guys think of the Void Ray at the moment? Is Blizzard heading in the right direction? Would you prefer a change like I outlined above, or something else entirely?
edit: poll added about the proposed change
Poll: Should Void Ray's lose their extended range and just have 6 range flatYes (65) 66% No (33) 34% 98 total votes Your vote: Should Void Ray's lose their extended range and just have 6 range flat (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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The change makes so sense as all of Zerg's AA is actually too slow to micro away from Voids. Change is a poor direction as it shows literally no understanding of basic movements speeds of the units that can actually attack Void Rays.
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If they want players to micro against voidrays, they should definitely remove it.
But still I think their damage is way too good, even if they didn't have extended range.
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On January 18 2013 09:32 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
The change makes so sense as all of Zerg's AA is actually too slow to micro away from Voids. Change is a poor direction as it shows literally no understanding of basic movements speeds of the units that can actually attack Void Rays.
Hydralisk, Corruptor, Stalker, Phoenix, Stimmed Marines and Vikings are all faster than Voids. All of them them besides marines and non-upgraded hydras and phoenixes have as much or more range than them as well. Of those, Corruptors, Stalkers and Vikings are armored, and therefore the ones who incentivize the opponent to trigger charge.
Vikings already outrange and outrun Void Rays, so while it would be a minor nerf against them it wouldn't have a major impact. But Corruptors and Stalkers are both 6 range and faster than Voids--which means they can engage Void Rays at the limit of their range, goad the Voids into triggering charge, then simply pull away until it wears off.. Or they could...except if they try to do this now, Voids have a unique mechanic that lets them keep attacking at longer range, making the manuever much less effective.
This removes that mechanic. In what way would it not be helpful in PvP, ZvP and to some extent TvP? More nerfs might be needed if it isn't enough, but I think at the very least its the first place Blizzard should start if they truly want to encourage a dynamic where players engage Voids to bait charges, then pull away and reengage when it wears off. A timer is not gonna cut it so long as the extended range mechanic exists.
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I like this idea. I think you hit the nail on the head, extremely skilled players have little difficulty mastering simple timings. The extended range is probably the only reason we don't see more void baiting.
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This is a pretty decent idea. I just played a PvP and yeah. VR are crazy strong. I don't mind dialing them back.
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I'm just dumbfounded they added a timer over the unit. May as well display a timer for Stim then. Just a horrible design decision.
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Removing the extended range make sense, after all the idea of asking people to retreat against the current VR is pretty illogical
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Protoss is the race that requires the least micro, and yet they think that "Void Ray micro" should be the OPPONANT moving out of range. I really wish that Blizzard would try make some more drastic changes, because right now it does not look like Void Rays are going to become something that you are going to micro
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On January 18 2013 11:22 Prog455 wrote:
Protoss is the race that requires the least micro, and yet they think that "Void Ray micro" should be the OPPONANT moving out of range. I really wish that Blizzard would try make some more drastic changes, because right now it does not look like Void Rays are going to become something that you are going to micro
While I see your point, the rest of Toss air is already fairly micro intensive. Phoenix are one of the most micro heavy units in the game. Oracles are fragile and have to use their abilities at the right time. Tempests to be used optimally have to be repositioned putting your army between the enemy anti air and them. Carriers can now use leash micro (though not as good as brood war).
Actually having written that, only the Phoenix is really impressive. But still. Not exactly a group of 1a units, more like a ragtag band of units that all have to be microed differently.
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This is a sensible suggestion but one problem with the Void Ray now is that the DPS is so damn high, that they kill buildings insanely fast too. How are we supposed to micro back buildings?
Void Rays kill Sporecrawlers 1 on 1. It's insane that dedicated anti-air dies to a single air unit that can be out that early in the game.
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While I see your point, the rest of Toss air is already fairly micro intensive. Phoenix are one of the most micro heavy units in the game. Oracles are fragile and have to use their abilities at the right time. Tempests to be used optimally have to be repositioned putting your army between the enemy anti air and them. Carriers can now use leash micro (though not as good as brood war).
Actually having written that, only the Phoenix is really impressive. But still. Not exactly a group of 1a units, more like a ragtag band of units that all have to be microed differently.
Tempests also overkill like crazy if you don't control them well. Skytoss is definitely way more micro intensive than the Robo based Colossus armies that dominated WoL.
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When you think about the Immortal being 4 supply it's not that bad with Voidray at 4 supply, but then when you consider Tempest, costing the same supply seems a little silly.
The thing is, this just makes Protoss lategame even worse, you can have 2 Infestors pr. Voidray now.
You might think that; well HotS Fungal isn't as strong now, but with 10 range and even the delay of the Fungal, which means you can kite the Infestors and have units moving into it, from a farther range from the Infestor than 10, it sorta balances out in a way that late game will still favour Zerg.
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Also void rays can attack with their beam while moving. That needs to go as well. Also increase tempest supply to 6, and we would have fixed protoss air.
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The 4 supply Voidray now is in a ok position. With the same supply, it now can't beat viking, hydra and muta, even with the charge on.
So i say absolutely don't change it. If you change it, it will be useless again.
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Great idea. I hate to say this, but as usual a member of the community comes up with a much better idea than Blizzard. Timers is going to look awful, and even with timers, the 8 range Voids have when engaging makes it difficult to pull back. Corrupters are faster than Voids, but not fast enough to get out before taking huge damage from charged Voids.
Please share this idea with Blizzard and cross your fingers that they'll listen.
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Void Rays are still way way way too strong against stalkers, which has the side effect of making anything but "making more void rays than the other guy" be a losing strategy in PvP.
Something like the proposed change would help, but the damage really needs to be addressed. I feel like we did this in WoL already...lol
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Maybe they want voidrays like this at the release of game. So all noobs will be like "Hey, I can build this funny looking flying beam thingy and kill everything! This game is so fun!" :D.
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On January 18 2013 22:51 Tuczniak wrote:
Maybe they want voidrays like this at the release of game. So all noobs will be like "Hey, I can build this funny looking flying beam thingy and kill everything! This game is so fun!" :D.
Nah, its not that. They want Stargate to be a viable tech tree instead of more of a gimmick that you only ever build for limited harass or specific counters (e.g. they make mutas so you get phoenixes). That means Stargate needs a core unit, available right off the bat, that is actually effective against a lot of compositions and good in direct engagements. Buffing Voids to fill that role was the obvious approach, as you'd have to radically redesign the Phoenix or Oracle if you wanted them to serve as core combat units in that way.
I get that. And honestly, for the most part I support it. If I have a choice between Protoss being more robo-oriented or more stargate-oriented, I'll take stargate any day because for the most part its more micro intensive than Colossi/Immortal builds and promotes much more multitasking and rewards higher apm and better gamesense. I think its more fun to play Stargate, and more fun to watch.
But that said...there's a difference between making a unit a solid core combat unit, and making it too strong. The Void Ray right now may well be too strong, particularly in PvP and PvZ. And moreover, as Blizzard says, we're seeing very little micro on either side when it comes to Voids.
The "activate charge" ability was added not just to buff Voids, but specifically to do so in a way that would encourage micro and tactical considerations. Ideally, it should make the opponent want to bait the Void into triggering charge at a time or position where the opponent can then back off until it wears off. If opponents get good at this, then that creates a mindgame--Protoss want to get as much out of their Voids as possible, which normally means they should trigger charge right when an engagement begins when all their Voids are alive and healthy to get maximum dps out of their Voids during the engagements...except triggering right at the start might push the opponent to pull back and then the charge is wasted...so Protoss may want to wait a bit to get the opponent to commit more, but every second of the engagement they're not using charge on Voids is hurting their overall dps for the fight. Ideally, you end up with a mindgame/positioning battle where Protoss needs to judge the perfect moment to use charge and the opponent needs to figure out when and how to bait Protoss into misusing it.
That all sounds good...except, its not happening. What's actually happening is a big ball of Voids gets moved into a big ball of enemy units, they trigger charge, and both sides stand there and duke it out. The end result is that Voids end up incredibly strong since they're always getting 100% efficiency out of charge, and combat isn't as interesting because no micro is incentivized.
This isn't because opponents don't know when charge is triggered (as Blizzard seems to think by adding the timer). Its because once combat starts, Void range extends to follow retreating units, making the baiting tactics Blizzard wants to encourage mostly pointless.
Removing the extended range nerfs Voids a bit, which is needed. But rather than nerfing them back into near-uselessness like in WoL, they remain a strong core unit...but one who can be made much less effective with good micro and mindgames.
In every way, it would be a positive change that would push the unit in the direction Blizzard say they want--a strong, core combat option for the Stargate, but that can be soft-countered by smart micro and positioning.
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i dont think the timer is final, its prolly just a placeholder until they come up with a more elegant solution
while i can agree with voids being 4 supply i dislike the direction to even smaller armies, id be all for increasing the supply cap to 230 or 250 in order to push back the moment of maxing out a little bit
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On January 19 2013 00:59 summerloud wrote:
i dont think the timer is final, its prolly just a placeholder until they come up with a more elegant solution
while i can agree with voids being 4 supply i dislike the direction to even smaller armies, id be all for increasing the supply cap to 230 or 250 in order to push back the moment of maxing out a little bit
Protoss having the smallest armies fits the flavor of the race though. And Voids cost per supply was stupidly high before, way higher than even capital ships. 4 supply makes more sense for them, and makes them less useful when you just decide to mass them into a deathball.
I do agree a higher supply cap could be good though, if only because it would add more benfit to taking more than 3 bases, and the more people spread out across many bases across the map the more multitask and splitting your forces to engage at different points becomes important. Keeping your entire force in one bigass deathball leaves you more and more vulnerable to counterattack the more bases there are.
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I think Void rays are going entirely the wrong way, and have been for a while. With the superbeam on demand, they are way too general purpose and strong. It is probably better to remove them imo. Carriers should be the go-to general purpose Protoss air choice.
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Personally, while i didn't realize that they gained 8 range while charged i always thought that the reason why people don't pull back, myself included, is because when i engage mid game with like a roach/hydra push i am doing that push because it is a timing type push. i just finished speed/+1 w/e and i need to push before the tech of protoss gets to much for my roach/hydra. So if i engage and pull back then that is giving him a lot more time to get out a few more void rays or a round of gateway units, and if he does get a few more voids out then they will have the charge up ability as well.
That is why i never pull back, my push almost always requires me to deal damage so i have to engage at some point whether he is charged or not.
I also havn't seen the timer yet  So i can't really comment on that but i don't really mind how the void rays are currently, but late game skytoss is unbeatable for me as a zerg. (I don't know if other zergs have found out how to beat it ) So any sort of nerf to it is good in my personal opinion.
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On January 19 2013 01:47 UltiBahamut wrote:
Personally, while i didn't realize that they gained 8 range while charged i always thought that the reason why people don't pull back, myself included, is because when i engage mid game with like a roach/hydra push i am doing that push because it is a timing type push. i just finished speed/+1 w/e and i need to push before the tech of protoss gets to much for my roach/hydra. So if i engage and pull back then that is giving him a lot more time to get out a few more void rays or a round of gateway units, and if he does get a few more voids out then they will have the charge up ability as well.
That is why i never pull back, my push almost always requires me to deal damage so i have to engage at some point whether he is charged or not.
Void Ray charge lasts 20 seconds and has a cooldown of 60 seconds. It takes a Void 60 seconds to build, 40 seconds with chrono. So if you pull back when charge is triggered and rengage when it wears off, around 20 seconds will have passed, which isn't enough time for even one more Void to be built. At that point you'll have about a minute where he doesn't have charge, and even if another Void does finish in that time it will still need to fly over to reinforce. I think you're overestimating how much Protoss is able to do in the 20 seconds that you disengage while he's charged.
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i like what OneGoal did with the voidray by making it a zoning unit.
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I wish they would revert all the changes they made to the Voidray. Personally I liked the idea of having a unit that does overkill but not in the regular way, so the micro to prevent this overkill (Voidray not charging) was fairly unique. And I found it fairly easy to charge Voidrays in Wings. On the other hand Voidrays in Wings are overpowered, so this might be why I liked them so much.
Supply wise (the 3 supply) nothing could really beat them except if you clumped against AoEs or had tons of Marines in your army (Zerg ones included).
The charge on a button, for me was a nerf alongside with making this unit boring. Also can't understand the timer as it was really easy to see if they are charged.
Always said they are a 4 supply unit so nothing suprising for me and better then changing anything else on them.
For the extended range. Yes I think Blizzard forgot about this, with simple Voidray move (not a-move) micro you can keep the opponent for ages in range before they are able to leave it. So retreating medium speed units will get you alot of losses.
But removing it without buffing them would not work as range 6 is to low for this slow air unit. Vikings would be having a field day against them. Phoenix could even kite them. Corrupters could blob up and hit and run, while Fungal prevents Voids from doing the same.
Also Voids are supposed to counter Corrupters, so building Corrupters against Voids should only work if you can outmass them before they get their critical mass.
In any case I would prefer the extended Range over a flat range of 7. It works really well together with the front mounted attack of it making it an offensive air unit that wants to be as close as possible. While the Carrier does the opposite in attacking and staying on max range.
For me the Voidray is slowly becoming a second Corruptor. A unit where you have to press a button when they fight to increase their damage. (like corruption)
But this is more a result of the majority paying more attention to macro instead of micro. So Blizzard will have to adapt the micro units to be easier to control.
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On January 18 2013 22:38 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Void Rays are still way way way too strong against stalkers, which has the side effect of making anything but "making more void rays than the other guy" be a losing strategy in PvP.
Something like the proposed change would help, but the damage really needs to be addressed. I feel like we did this in WoL already...lol
Stalkers are just terribly weak units. Mutas crush them even.
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In every matchup if you deathball fight, and you try to leave the fight; you just end up losing a little while later because you take so much damage trying to disengage thanks to the liquidlike movement of armies. Critical mass games occur too often in sc2.
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I really don't like the timer. Maybe add an animation if the ability is ready, the timer is lame. As for the extended range I'm afraid it's quite needed for the current design to work otherwise it'll be too easy to dodge that charge up time. Maybe reducing the cooldown of the ability will make it work .. I'm not sure.
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On January 19 2013 04:27 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 22:38 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Void Rays are still way way way too strong against stalkers, which has the side effect of making anything but "making more void rays than the other guy" be a losing strategy in PvP.
Something like the proposed change would help, but the damage really needs to be addressed. I feel like we did this in WoL already...lol Stalkers are just terribly weak units. Mutas crush them even.
Yeah, but it's the only Protoss option for AA until Archons, and even Archons suck against Void Rays. Before Void Rays got their super armor melting beam of amazeballs, stalkers would actually be able to defend find against Void Rays cost effectively. Now, though, the fights are always HEAVILY in favor of the Void Rays unless you outnumber the ever loving crap out of the Void Rays. This is definitely possible in the early part of the game before too many Void Rays are out, but later on it's just not practical. This makes anything other than Stargate play almost an auto loss.
On January 19 2013 04:51 i)awn wrote:
I really don't like the timer. Maybe add an animation if the ability is ready, the timer is lame. As for the extended range I'm afraid it's quite needed for the current design to work otherwise it'll be too easy to dodge that charge up time. Maybe reducing the cooldown of the ability will make it work .. I'm not sure.
Yeah, I wish it would turn the beam red or something. It would still be obvious, without looking stupid like a timer above the unit.
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I think flatting the range to 6 may just lead to useless old void rays. You engage with roaches, voids charge up and you retreat. Now what? It's over. Not much an interesting and intensive micro battle.
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Previously, Void Rays cost 84 minerals and 50 gas per 1 supply...which was much higher than even capital ships, and in mineral cost per supply was actually the highest in the game.
Wrong!! Ghosts and Banelings cost 100M / 50G per 1 supply.
Other than that I am not so sure about your idea, I see no major harm in it, so I would like to see how it affects hit and run away until the cooldown hits tactics. But I don't think its necessary, since Void Rays are fairly slow, unlike Marines and Marauders (who have a similar mechanic).
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On January 19 2013 05:37 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Yeah, I wish it would turn the beam red or something. It would still be obvious, without looking stupid like a timer above the unit.
Or that the animation is the current fully charged version of the Void rays attack, while the normal attack looks like the middle (the actual weapon) beam only. The animation are already in game and its pretty easy to see the difference.
On January 19 2013 05:49 mantequilla wrote:
I think flatting the range to 6 may just lead to useless old void rays. You engage with roaches, voids charge up and you retreat. Now what? It's over. Not much an interesting and intensive micro battle.
Not entirely roaches and rays got the same speed so when your retreating the rays should atleast be able to pick off the roaches at the end, and if they can cut off the roaches a bit even a couple more. But you might be on something do, if the leach range is removed it could lose a lot of his damage and potential when the ability is on cooldown on faster moving units. Rays where always a good unit to snipe of some extra units when the enemy is retreating even in WoL. The rays damage is for his cost not extremely high outside of his cd and with nerfing the leach range you are indirect nerfing the damage outside of the cooldown too. I think a solution should be found with the ability and not the the supply/leach range of the Void ray.
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EPT
