On December 09 2012 02:11 McBrungus wrote: Just micro against them. I honestly don't see the damage buff being too crazy to handle in ZvZ. I've always just rolled over anyone going ultras with roach/hydra/infestor and some stutter stepping, which is crazy good with fast hydras.
Good players will roll you with ultras build in zvz, they hard counter that comp, they They hard counter it even in wol.
If someone is just making only ultra he is a new player and has no clue what he is doing.
The zvz ultra build gets 3/3 melee upgrades on 3 bases very quick and lots of infestors as support, along with NON stop constant Ling run bys (StarTale_Life stye) to keep busy/ destroy your ecom. Also 3/3 lings with crackling upgrade will destroy hydras while ultra destroy roaches, and as infestors root you.
You can't funngle or np Ultras, Your best bet is to grab a strong broodlord while trying to wall off with spines, if you can't react or find out he is going ultras untill mid game u already lost if the guy has good micro.
The counter to it in wol is broodlord transition, IN hots I assume you can use vipers with roach/hydra to hold it off untill u can grab broodlords. I
I'm only rank 5 masters in HOTS, I only lose when to fast muta tech on 2 base, if they hide it well able to prevent my scouting (hiding spire) Or i sometimes lose while going ultra/ling/infestor if they can turtle long enough to get large amounts of Viper/Bl/corupter out before i can get my own aa.
Players going ultra in zvz can grab 3/3 very fast due to not spending gas on roach or hydra tech and only gas on melee upgrade and infestor in mid game.
On December 10 2012 09:58 phodacbiet wrote: Frenzy is gone, just neural.
Frenzy is not gone, nor can you NP them EVER. Only thing Change on utlras was the burrow remove and Added dmg vs all making them viable vs protoss ground armies now.
Melaine, I think you've got it a little mixed up. For a few reasons. For starters there is absolutely no possible way to be droning super hard and be super aggressive at the same time. So maybe you drone then are aggressive but there is still a timing where u are very vulnerable when going straight to ultras. Second you say they make a shit ton of infestors. Think for a minute there is no way at 15-16 minutes you have have 15 infestors and 10 ultras I'm sorry it doesn't work that way. Especially when your being aggressive.. Your right about infestors not hurting ultras anyway but lings die super super quickly to fungal with good splits on roach hydra. Fungaling kings maybe even having a few banelings you can be somewhat efficient. You never want to engage on open area. A roach hydra player can always match you on upgrades. Easily. Ling runbys can get shut down very easy with smart building placement and roach positioning. Ling ultra relys heavily on a strong early econ because lings are so larva inefficient. You will also need a lot more macro hatches. If roach hydra kills a ultra ling army once. The lings are weak vs roach hydra infestor with same upgrades its ridiculous. So if there is any roach hydra left and you relax on kings I wish you luck. And when going ling ultra you WILL die to any roach timings and roach hydra attacks with out roaches of your own. There is plenty of ways to beat ling ultra. Just takes patients/aggression/ timing attacks to do damage. If you deny a third you can't go ultras either.
Uhm... Im not sure if IT eggs block ultra pathing in HOTS beta (like memcpy said), but thats an excellent way to go. Mass IT will get some dmg through and block the ultras from hitting ur main army. Ultras dont hit IT eggs so theyll just spazz until the IT hatch. Another solution, of course, is ultras of your own.
Since it does 35 dmg to everything, broods are BAD. even in WoL ive made the mistake of trying to kill ultras with broods. It works, but theyve already shredded through everything. Its like having 4 mutas against a 2/2 roach timing.
And in response to existor, you need a LOT of IT. And remember that every two hits is two hits off of your hydras which are pounding away. For an exaggeration of how this works, watch this:
They should remove Frenzied, reduce the size of the Ultra model, maybe buff Ultra speed slightly in return. They would still ignore conc shells and stomp through FFs because they're massive, but you could fungal them and then get in free hits with ranged Units. But with their speed (and especially if it was buffed slightly), and with a slightly smaller size, they would have a decent chance to dodge the Fungal Projectile and get in close, so while Fungal would be strong against them it wouldn't necessarily instawin.
edit: The other option would be to give the Broodlord attack bonus damage vs. massive.
I would guess that hydras with stutter step would be really good unless he gets out infestors. However, if he has infestors and ultras before the late game, he definitely won't have the gas to get much air, which means that viper/hydra should be very strong. Also, if he techs this hardcore, then mutalisks or even 2-2 roaches will punish him hard. I expect we'll only see ultras as they were intended in the first place, as a late game unit.
Actually, I think that infestor/ultra vs hydra viper would be very cool, because both players would need good micro. The infestor player would need to not have his 'festors or ultras yanked, because the hydras could eat them alive. He'd also have to make sure to get surrounds and not engage in chokes, because his army, being purely ground, has a disadvantage wherever there is uneven terrain. The ultra player would also have to try to deny hydra stutter step with fungal, but with fast hydras + only 8 range on fungal + its a projectile, I'm confident that this would be hard to do. The viper player would also have to worry about favorable engages, not getting fungaled/flanked, and getting money pulls on the ultras.
Then suddenly a wild strategic nydus worm appears.
1. roaches/hydras with locusts in front to slow down the utlras. 2. Broodlords are good. Because they create broodlings which slow down the ultras (while you bring other units to attack).
Infestors are a bad strat against ultras because fungal and neural are useless against ultras. Neural is useless against ultras. Fungal won''t freeze ultras and takes forever to bring them down. The only thing you got is IT. Which can be use but with the new flat damage, ITs will fall so quickly (haven't test this yet). Even with IT, you really have to spread them out so they dont' clump together.
The key against mass ultras is create lots of units (locusts and/or broodlings) while you bring the high dps units (hydras..roaches) to target the ultras down.
This is all theorycraft. I can't wait to try ultras as well . Maybe the best counter to ultras are more ultras :D
Even with the reduced Egg health, still seem like would block pathing sufficiently enough so hydras could deal dmg. unfortunately i haven't been able to play on the new patch yet as ive been studying for exams.
lol However there is one really gimmicky way i know of that might help. Go drone hydra. Create an arc of drones on stop position in front of your hydras. The ultras will be forced to walk around the drone arc, the AI will prioritize the hydras.
The Ultra user will have to either tell ultras individually to attack the drones, to break through, (which with 35 per swipe will be no time at all) or they could place near by ultras on hold position, to take out the drone arc.
Edit: oh shit i just i'm forgetting about the swarm host. In stead of using drones, don't let the locust's attack move just allow them to get in to an arc and press stop. They should block the Ai well, and given they're free, far better.
To get to ultras without dying I believe the build is basically a fast tech on 3 bases behind spines and infestors, while threatening ling counters.
But with the fungal nerf mutas hit these kinds of builds super hard, the only tool the infestorling player has when mutas pop out is +1 carapace lings to try and force the mutas back. But a few banelings still destroy pure ling, and the new fungal is really bad against mutas. At least with roach play a pushout once mutas pop is scary enough for to force the mutas back to defend. Maybe a queen heavy comp is enough to hold 3 bases against mutas but it leaves you open to a lot of timings.
Ultras may be super strong against roach hydra infest but now I think muta play counters it early on. The whole point of playing against a player that aims for ultras is to cripple him early on, I feel mutas can fill that role pretty well.
Good players will roll you with ultras build in zvz, they hard counter that comp, they They hard counter it even in wol.
I'm pretty sure you have no idea what that term means and you should probably stop using it.
Anyways, Ultras have always had pretty decent damage, nice that it's a bit better now but the way to deal with Ultras hasn't changed one bit. Roach/Hydra type armies still do fine against them if you micro properly and use chokes to your advantage. If you're just a-moving your army in an open field against Ultras then yeah, you're gonna get rolled as you should be.
On December 09 2012 02:18 Rabiator wrote: You forgot to mention that they will 4-shot ALL ZERGLINGS AROUND THEM due to their splash damage.
The best way to control them in ZvZ might actually be Neural Parasite and Spine Crawler walls (just create a kill zone and drag them over there with a Viper). Vipers could be an efficient way to simply drag them away from your important units.
Do you even play zerg? You can't neural ultras.
On December 09 2012 02:25 Sumadin wrote: How about Roach/Viber? I know that Ultras beat roaches well when the Ultras form a front against them but what when they are Abducted into a swarm of them? Since the vibers stay with your own forces for this, it allows you to cover them with Hydra/Infestor or your own Air units.
Is it even possible to abduct an Ultra? I would think that was the kind of eff that frenzy made you immune to.
Just to clear this up: in WoL, Ultras had an ability called "frenzy" that kept them from being rooted, stunned, or neuraled. In HotS, they no longer have frenzy, and thus can be fungaled, abducted, and neuraled.
On December 10 2012 11:16 NonameAI wrote: Uhm... Im not sure if IT eggs block ultra pathing in HOTS beta (like memcpy said), but thats an excellent way to go. Mass IT will get some dmg through and block the ultras from hitting ur main army. Ultras dont hit IT eggs so theyll just spazz until the IT hatch. Another solution, of course, is ultras of your own.
Since it does 35 dmg to everything, broods are BAD. even in WoL ive made the mistake of trying to kill ultras with broods. It works, but theyve already shredded through everything. Its like having 4 mutas against a 2/2 roach timing.
And in response to existor, you need a LOT of IT. And remember that every two hits is two hits off of your hydras which are pounding away. For an exaggeration of how this works, watch this:
- ultras do 35 damage to eggs, 2-3 shot all eggs with 70 hp - IT have no upgrades - infested terrans getting 35 damage from ultralisks, so they are 3x times nerfed against ultralisks
In result, PvP colossie wars problem now evolved into ZvZ ultralisk wars
Just to clear this up: in WoL, Ultras had an ability called "frenzy" that kept them from being rooted, stunned, or neuraled. In HotS, they no longer have frenzy, and thus can be fungaled, abducted, and neuraled.
They have Frenzy in hots
Roach/Hydra type armies still do fine against them if you micro properly and use chokes to your advantage.
Ultralisks countered roaches, and also they can kill hydralisks quicker. For same cost hydroach loses to ultralisks
On December 10 2012 11:16 NonameAI wrote: Uhm... Im not sure if IT eggs block ultra pathing in HOTS beta (like memcpy said), but thats an excellent way to go. Mass IT will get some dmg through and block the ultras from hitting ur main army. Ultras dont hit IT eggs so theyll just spazz until the IT hatch. Another solution, of course, is ultras of your own.
Since it does 35 dmg to everything, broods are BAD. even in WoL ive made the mistake of trying to kill ultras with broods. It works, but theyve already shredded through everything. Its like having 4 mutas against a 2/2 roach timing.
And in response to existor, you need a LOT of IT. And remember that every two hits is two hits off of your hydras which are pounding away. For an exaggeration of how this works, watch this:
- ultras do 35 damage to eggs, 2-3 shot all eggs with 70 hp - IT have no upgrades - infested terrans getting 35 damage from ultralisks, so they are 3x times nerfed against ultralisks
In result, PvP colossie wars problem now evolved into ZvZ ultralisk wars
Just to clear this up: in WoL, Ultras had an ability called "frenzy" that kept them from being rooted, stunned, or neuraled. In HotS, they no longer have frenzy, and thus can be fungaled, abducted, and neuraled.
Ultras always beat an equal cost of roaches in an a-move battle. Roaches do better if microed but they are super vulnerable vs fungal, and ultras aren't. The main reason that roaches can beat ultras in WoL is because ultras only do 15 damage vs light. A small number of lings and/or eggs can block ultras for a really long time while roaches kill them. This doesn't work vs 35 damage ultras.
Give locusts a bonus +massive IMO. It'll really only affect ultras because locusts are unlikely to get close enough to hit colossi or Thors. And it would be less game breaking than giving BLs, mutas or hydras a +massive bonus.
It might turn into a situation like brood war PvP with dragoons (where you beat mass dragoon with dragoon/reaver). You might just need some ultras yourself + another unit behind, like Ultralisk/Hydra or something.
On December 11 2012 13:30 Whitewing wrote: It might turn into a situation like brood war PvP with dragoons (where you beat mass dragoon with dragoon/reaver). You might just need some ultras yourself + another unit behind, like Ultralisk/Hydra or something.
Exactly, I don't get why people are complaning. I'd rather have an ultralisk lategame than a broodlord one in ZvZ.
EPT
. Maybe the best counter to ultras are more ultras :D
