Since Ultralisks now deal 35 damage to all targets, they can one-shot Zerglings, 3-shot Hydralisks, 2-shot locusts (splash is extremely effective here) and they're already a counter to Roaches.
There is a crazy soft-counter with Vipers behind Ultralisks and abduct them again and again, not allowing to Ultralisks to reach other Zerg forces, such as Hydralisks or Swarm Hosts. But if enemy brings some anti-air to cover Ultralisks, they become unstopable.
Well, here is the question. How to counter Ultralisks in ZvZ? Exclude please solution with creating Ultralisks too. Also Broodlords are very slow against ultralisk, especially on creep, plus new Ultralisk atack can quickly clear all broodling waves.
Just micro against them. I honestly don't see the damage buff being too crazy to handle in ZvZ. I've always just rolled over anyone going ultras with roach/hydra/infestor and some stutter stepping, which is crazy good with fast hydras.
You forgot to mention that they will 4-shot ALL ZERGLINGS AROUND THEM due to their splash damage.
The best way to control them in ZvZ might actually be Neural Parasite and Spine Crawler walls (just create a kill zone and drag them over there with a Viper). Vipers could be an efficient way to simply drag them away from your important units.
On December 09 2012 02:11 McBrungus wrote: Just micro against them. I honestly don't see the damage buff being too crazy to handle in ZvZ. I've always just rolled over anyone going ultras with roach/hydra/infestor and some stutter stepping, which is crazy good with fast hydras.
surely the ultraplayer has infestors aswell making stutterstep void with fungals. Unless hes terrible that is. the whole WoL ultra bild relies upon getting tons of infestor ling while skipping roaches to get to ultras so pure ultras, well, ive never seen it and yes, pure ultras is as easy with zerg as with mmm.
On December 09 2012 02:18 Rabiator wrote: You forgot to mention that they will 4-shot ALL ZERGLINGS AROUND THEM due to their splash damage.
The best way to control them in ZvZ might actually be Neural Parasite and Spine Crawler walls (just create a kill zone and drag them over there with a Viper). Vipers could be an efficient way to simply drag them away from your important units.
Neural works on ultras in HoTS? I thought they were still immune because of frenzy.
I think that other then microing your units back again them you can also still use infested terran as a shield to stop them from attacking all together. Unless there's another change I don't know about stopping this
How about Roach/Viber? I know that Ultras beat roaches well when the Ultras form a front against them but what when they are Abducted into a swarm of them? Since the vibers stay with your own forces for this, it allows you to cover them with Hydra/Infestor or your own Air units.
Is it even possible to abduct an Ultra? I would think that was the kind of eff that frenzy made you immune to.
I actually managed to beat a guy who went mass ling ultra vs me in a ZvZ. I had the composition of having roach hydra swarm host on three bases. Honestly, it's not too difficult to beat it with just roach micro and getting ur roaches to focus fire one at a time.. they literally die in one volley and roaches can outrun ultras. Just try not to get sandwiched by his zerglings
On December 09 2012 02:18 Rabiator wrote: You forgot to mention that they will 4-shot ALL ZERGLINGS AROUND THEM due to their splash damage.
The best way to control them in ZvZ might actually be Neural Parasite and Spine Crawler walls (just create a kill zone and drag them over there with a Viper). Vipers could be an efficient way to simply drag them away from your important units.
On December 09 2012 02:25 Sumadin wrote: How about Roach/Viber? I know that Ultras beat roaches well when the Ultras form a front against them but what when they are Abducted into a swarm of them? Since the vibers stay with your own forces for this, it allows you to cover them with Hydra/Infestor or your own Air units.
Is it even possible to abduct an Ultra? I would think that was the kind of eff that frenzy made you immune to.
Yes it is. Well actually, I know you can abduct your own, not sure about enemy...
Not much has changed. Just use Locust/Roach. Locusts do die quicker, but it's infinite free spawn. Only difference is that you have to be more positional instead of 1'a-ing your army.
On December 09 2012 02:25 Sumadin wrote: How about Roach/Viber? I know that Ultras beat roaches well when the Ultras form a front against them but what when they are Abducted into a swarm of them? Since the vibers stay with your own forces for this, it allows you to cover them with Hydra/Infestor or your own Air units.
Is it even possible to abduct an Ultra? I would think that was the kind of eff that frenzy made you immune to.
Yes it is. Well actually, I know you can abduct your own, not sure about enemy...
On December 09 2012 04:59 viasacra89 wrote: Not much has changed. Just use Locust/Roach. Locusts do die quicker, but it's infinite free spawn. Only difference is that you have to be more positional instead of 1'a-ing your army.
This indeed looks frightening, I hope it doesn't become a 'whoever hits ultra tech first wins' scenario. On the other hand, the ultra is a hive tech unit, it is possible to beat teching players with quite a lot of timed pushes before hive tech kicks into gear. Still, I hope there is a decent counter for this.
All I can think of is counterattack his bases with speedling groups when he attacks. For the army itself, I suppose micro with corruption and focusing them down with speed hydras is also a possible option. All other options probably include bringing ultralisks yourself (which is of course totally possible in a ZvZ ).
On December 09 2012 02:11 McBrungus wrote: Just micro against them. I honestly don't see the damage buff being too crazy to handle in ZvZ. I've always just rolled over anyone going ultras with roach/hydra/infestor and some stutter stepping, which is crazy good with fast hydras.
I think you are underestimating just how strong of a buff that is. It used to do 15 damage to everything except armored it would do 35. Now it does 35 to everything. While I haven't seen ultras in zvz yet I can see them becoming quiet powerful. In WoL they can beat a roach/hydra army pretty easily with 5/3 upgrades and some infestor support. Now in HOTS I imagine ultra's in zvz with vipers is incredibly strong.
I actually want to go ultralisks now in zvz thanks OP for giving me an idea when both of us don't go mutalisk ^_^
Well there is a few things I think you are missing. If you go ultras later in the mid game you have to realize you sacrifice a lot early game. Your open to timings. If the ultra player has roaches mid game plays safe that means when ultra tech comes he came make say 4 with all other upgrades. Which isn't to bad to deal with. Roach hydra can be very cost efficient. If you can split and fight on creep. With hydra speed also I think they are fast than ultras. With hydra spa out put you can kill them quickly aslo. Don't go exclusively roach hydra either. You may need banelings or something of that sort if you go investors that works but you need to deal with the lings from other side. If you see someone playing greedy you can pressure early deny expos and stop him from getting to ultra in fisrt place. If he plays a stronger decisive he won't have a lot of ultras then.
you will definetly have to have an economy advantage vs an ultraplayer since ultra ling infestor viper is insanely strong vs roach hydra. but since the infestor got nerfed very hard it is now a lot harder to go safely into the ultra tech. so most likely the ultra player will have to turtle and play more defensively than in WoL now which gives good opportunities to get 1 or even 2 bases ahead as a roach infestor or roach hydra player.
so the way to go might be roach hydra + get economy advantage, add spines and tech to BLs. this is just theorycrafting but since you will need to play the same ling infestor spine style to get to ultras and that style got weaker you should be able to either kill the opponent or if he invests hardcore into defense just get way ahead in economy and be able to stall until BLs are out.
Don't forget, mass ling was usually countered by fungals, because lings die very quickly when they get fungaled. With the projectile change, lings could potentially be a lot harder to catch, which makes ling-inf-ultra a lot stronger as well.
On December 09 2012 02:11 McBrungus wrote: Just micro against them. I honestly don't see the damage buff being too crazy to handle in ZvZ. I've always just rolled over anyone going ultras with roach/hydra/infestor and some stutter stepping, which is crazy good with fast hydras.
Good players will roll you with ultras build in zvz, they hard counter that comp, they They hard counter it even in wol.
If someone is just making only ultra he is a new player and has no clue what he is doing.
The zvz ultra build gets 3/3 melee upgrades on 3 bases very quick and lots of infestors as support, along with NON stop constant Ling run bys (StarTale_Life stye) to keep busy/ destroy your ecom. Also 3/3 lings with crackling upgrade will destroy hydras while ultra destroy roaches, and as infestors root you.
You can't funngle or np Ultras, Your best bet is to grab a strong broodlord while trying to wall off with spines, if you can't react or find out he is going ultras untill mid game u already lost if the guy has good micro.
The counter to it in wol is broodlord transition, IN hots I assume you can use vipers with roach/hydra to hold it off untill u can grab broodlords. I
I'm only rank 5 masters in HOTS, I only lose when to fast muta tech on 2 base, if they hide it well able to prevent my scouting (hiding spire) Or i sometimes lose while going ultra/ling/infestor if they can turtle long enough to get large amounts of Viper/Bl/corupter out before i can get my own aa.
Players going ultra in zvz can grab 3/3 very fast due to not spending gas on roach or hydra tech and only gas on melee upgrade and infestor in mid game.
On December 10 2012 09:58 phodacbiet wrote: Frenzy is gone, just neural.
Frenzy is not gone, nor can you NP them EVER. Only thing Change on utlras was the burrow remove and Added dmg vs all making them viable vs protoss ground armies now.
Melaine, I think you've got it a little mixed up. For a few reasons. For starters there is absolutely no possible way to be droning super hard and be super aggressive at the same time. So maybe you drone then are aggressive but there is still a timing where u are very vulnerable when going straight to ultras. Second you say they make a shit ton of infestors. Think for a minute there is no way at 15-16 minutes you have have 15 infestors and 10 ultras I'm sorry it doesn't work that way. Especially when your being aggressive.. Your right about infestors not hurting ultras anyway but lings die super super quickly to fungal with good splits on roach hydra. Fungaling kings maybe even having a few banelings you can be somewhat efficient. You never want to engage on open area. A roach hydra player can always match you on upgrades. Easily. Ling runbys can get shut down very easy with smart building placement and roach positioning. Ling ultra relys heavily on a strong early econ because lings are so larva inefficient. You will also need a lot more macro hatches. If roach hydra kills a ultra ling army once. The lings are weak vs roach hydra infestor with same upgrades its ridiculous. So if there is any roach hydra left and you relax on kings I wish you luck. And when going ling ultra you WILL die to any roach timings and roach hydra attacks with out roaches of your own. There is plenty of ways to beat ling ultra. Just takes patients/aggression/ timing attacks to do damage. If you deny a third you can't go ultras either.
Uhm... Im not sure if IT eggs block ultra pathing in HOTS beta (like memcpy said), but thats an excellent way to go. Mass IT will get some dmg through and block the ultras from hitting ur main army. Ultras dont hit IT eggs so theyll just spazz until the IT hatch. Another solution, of course, is ultras of your own.
Since it does 35 dmg to everything, broods are BAD. even in WoL ive made the mistake of trying to kill ultras with broods. It works, but theyve already shredded through everything. Its like having 4 mutas against a 2/2 roach timing.
And in response to existor, you need a LOT of IT. And remember that every two hits is two hits off of your hydras which are pounding away. For an exaggeration of how this works, watch this:
They should remove Frenzied, reduce the size of the Ultra model, maybe buff Ultra speed slightly in return. They would still ignore conc shells and stomp through FFs because they're massive, but you could fungal them and then get in free hits with ranged Units. But with their speed (and especially if it was buffed slightly), and with a slightly smaller size, they would have a decent chance to dodge the Fungal Projectile and get in close, so while Fungal would be strong against them it wouldn't necessarily instawin.
edit: The other option would be to give the Broodlord attack bonus damage vs. massive.
I would guess that hydras with stutter step would be really good unless he gets out infestors. However, if he has infestors and ultras before the late game, he definitely won't have the gas to get much air, which means that viper/hydra should be very strong. Also, if he techs this hardcore, then mutalisks or even 2-2 roaches will punish him hard. I expect we'll only see ultras as they were intended in the first place, as a late game unit.
Actually, I think that infestor/ultra vs hydra viper would be very cool, because both players would need good micro. The infestor player would need to not have his 'festors or ultras yanked, because the hydras could eat them alive. He'd also have to make sure to get surrounds and not engage in chokes, because his army, being purely ground, has a disadvantage wherever there is uneven terrain. The ultra player would also have to try to deny hydra stutter step with fungal, but with fast hydras + only 8 range on fungal + its a projectile, I'm confident that this would be hard to do. The viper player would also have to worry about favorable engages, not getting fungaled/flanked, and getting money pulls on the ultras.
Then suddenly a wild strategic nydus worm appears.
1. roaches/hydras with locusts in front to slow down the utlras. 2. Broodlords are good. Because they create broodlings which slow down the ultras (while you bring other units to attack).
Infestors are a bad strat against ultras because fungal and neural are useless against ultras. Neural is useless against ultras. Fungal won''t freeze ultras and takes forever to bring them down. The only thing you got is IT. Which can be use but with the new flat damage, ITs will fall so quickly (haven't test this yet). Even with IT, you really have to spread them out so they dont' clump together.
The key against mass ultras is create lots of units (locusts and/or broodlings) while you bring the high dps units (hydras..roaches) to target the ultras down.
This is all theorycraft. I can't wait to try ultras as well . Maybe the best counter to ultras are more ultras :D
Even with the reduced Egg health, still seem like would block pathing sufficiently enough so hydras could deal dmg. unfortunately i haven't been able to play on the new patch yet as ive been studying for exams.
lol However there is one really gimmicky way i know of that might help. Go drone hydra. Create an arc of drones on stop position in front of your hydras. The ultras will be forced to walk around the drone arc, the AI will prioritize the hydras.
The Ultra user will have to either tell ultras individually to attack the drones, to break through, (which with 35 per swipe will be no time at all) or they could place near by ultras on hold position, to take out the drone arc.
Edit: oh shit i just i'm forgetting about the swarm host. In stead of using drones, don't let the locust's attack move just allow them to get in to an arc and press stop. They should block the Ai well, and given they're free, far better.
To get to ultras without dying I believe the build is basically a fast tech on 3 bases behind spines and infestors, while threatening ling counters.
But with the fungal nerf mutas hit these kinds of builds super hard, the only tool the infestorling player has when mutas pop out is +1 carapace lings to try and force the mutas back. But a few banelings still destroy pure ling, and the new fungal is really bad against mutas. At least with roach play a pushout once mutas pop is scary enough for to force the mutas back to defend. Maybe a queen heavy comp is enough to hold 3 bases against mutas but it leaves you open to a lot of timings.
Ultras may be super strong against roach hydra infest but now I think muta play counters it early on. The whole point of playing against a player that aims for ultras is to cripple him early on, I feel mutas can fill that role pretty well.
Good players will roll you with ultras build in zvz, they hard counter that comp, they They hard counter it even in wol.
I'm pretty sure you have no idea what that term means and you should probably stop using it.
Anyways, Ultras have always had pretty decent damage, nice that it's a bit better now but the way to deal with Ultras hasn't changed one bit. Roach/Hydra type armies still do fine against them if you micro properly and use chokes to your advantage. If you're just a-moving your army in an open field against Ultras then yeah, you're gonna get rolled as you should be.
On December 09 2012 02:18 Rabiator wrote: You forgot to mention that they will 4-shot ALL ZERGLINGS AROUND THEM due to their splash damage.
The best way to control them in ZvZ might actually be Neural Parasite and Spine Crawler walls (just create a kill zone and drag them over there with a Viper). Vipers could be an efficient way to simply drag them away from your important units.
Do you even play zerg? You can't neural ultras.
On December 09 2012 02:25 Sumadin wrote: How about Roach/Viber? I know that Ultras beat roaches well when the Ultras form a front against them but what when they are Abducted into a swarm of them? Since the vibers stay with your own forces for this, it allows you to cover them with Hydra/Infestor or your own Air units.
Is it even possible to abduct an Ultra? I would think that was the kind of eff that frenzy made you immune to.
Just to clear this up: in WoL, Ultras had an ability called "frenzy" that kept them from being rooted, stunned, or neuraled. In HotS, they no longer have frenzy, and thus can be fungaled, abducted, and neuraled.
On December 10 2012 11:16 NonameAI wrote: Uhm... Im not sure if IT eggs block ultra pathing in HOTS beta (like memcpy said), but thats an excellent way to go. Mass IT will get some dmg through and block the ultras from hitting ur main army. Ultras dont hit IT eggs so theyll just spazz until the IT hatch. Another solution, of course, is ultras of your own.
Since it does 35 dmg to everything, broods are BAD. even in WoL ive made the mistake of trying to kill ultras with broods. It works, but theyve already shredded through everything. Its like having 4 mutas against a 2/2 roach timing.
And in response to existor, you need a LOT of IT. And remember that every two hits is two hits off of your hydras which are pounding away. For an exaggeration of how this works, watch this:
- ultras do 35 damage to eggs, 2-3 shot all eggs with 70 hp - IT have no upgrades - infested terrans getting 35 damage from ultralisks, so they are 3x times nerfed against ultralisks
In result, PvP colossie wars problem now evolved into ZvZ ultralisk wars
Just to clear this up: in WoL, Ultras had an ability called "frenzy" that kept them from being rooted, stunned, or neuraled. In HotS, they no longer have frenzy, and thus can be fungaled, abducted, and neuraled.
They have Frenzy in hots
Roach/Hydra type armies still do fine against them if you micro properly and use chokes to your advantage.
Ultralisks countered roaches, and also they can kill hydralisks quicker. For same cost hydroach loses to ultralisks
On December 10 2012 11:16 NonameAI wrote: Uhm... Im not sure if IT eggs block ultra pathing in HOTS beta (like memcpy said), but thats an excellent way to go. Mass IT will get some dmg through and block the ultras from hitting ur main army. Ultras dont hit IT eggs so theyll just spazz until the IT hatch. Another solution, of course, is ultras of your own.
Since it does 35 dmg to everything, broods are BAD. even in WoL ive made the mistake of trying to kill ultras with broods. It works, but theyve already shredded through everything. Its like having 4 mutas against a 2/2 roach timing.
And in response to existor, you need a LOT of IT. And remember that every two hits is two hits off of your hydras which are pounding away. For an exaggeration of how this works, watch this:
- ultras do 35 damage to eggs, 2-3 shot all eggs with 70 hp - IT have no upgrades - infested terrans getting 35 damage from ultralisks, so they are 3x times nerfed against ultralisks
In result, PvP colossie wars problem now evolved into ZvZ ultralisk wars
Just to clear this up: in WoL, Ultras had an ability called "frenzy" that kept them from being rooted, stunned, or neuraled. In HotS, they no longer have frenzy, and thus can be fungaled, abducted, and neuraled.
Ultras always beat an equal cost of roaches in an a-move battle. Roaches do better if microed but they are super vulnerable vs fungal, and ultras aren't. The main reason that roaches can beat ultras in WoL is because ultras only do 15 damage vs light. A small number of lings and/or eggs can block ultras for a really long time while roaches kill them. This doesn't work vs 35 damage ultras.
Give locusts a bonus +massive IMO. It'll really only affect ultras because locusts are unlikely to get close enough to hit colossi or Thors. And it would be less game breaking than giving BLs, mutas or hydras a +massive bonus.
It might turn into a situation like brood war PvP with dragoons (where you beat mass dragoon with dragoon/reaver). You might just need some ultras yourself + another unit behind, like Ultralisk/Hydra or something.
On December 11 2012 13:30 Whitewing wrote: It might turn into a situation like brood war PvP with dragoons (where you beat mass dragoon with dragoon/reaver). You might just need some ultras yourself + another unit behind, like Ultralisk/Hydra or something.
Exactly, I don't get why people are complaning. I'd rather have an ultralisk lategame than a broodlord one in ZvZ.
On December 11 2012 13:30 Whitewing wrote: It might turn into a situation like brood war PvP with dragoons (where you beat mass dragoon with dragoon/reaver). You might just need some ultras yourself + another unit behind, like Ultralisk/Hydra or something.
Exactly, I don't get why people are complaning. I'd rather have an ultralisk lategame than a broodlord one in ZvZ.
I'd much preferr it this way rather than a > b > c > a
They have been consistently buffing mutas for the last couple balance patches, and infestor is a lot weaker counter to them now than they used to be. Can you mass ultras while being out expanded and harassed by a muta player? Is a broodlord + mutaball composition viable in hots?
Love the new ultras. as always chokes are the ultras hard counter. They will melt any ground force caught in the open, but that's a lot harder with the speed hydras. But thats where the infestor comes in. fungal growth still works decently vs. roach/viper/hydra at chokes.
It's a lot harder to go ultralisks now. Ling/festor/ultra doesn't do well vs. muta/ling. Mutas can just dodge fungal growth and it's such a pain to lead them.
EPT
).
. Maybe the best counter to ultras are more ultras :D
