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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 11 2012 11:00 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 01:54 weikor wrote:
I think your overcalculating numbers here.
2 Widow mines kill 1 voidray in 0 Seconds.
1 Widow mine kills a marine in 0 seconds
Does the high DPS of the widow mine mean they are broken?
The reason the widow mine is balanced is because the widow mine, like the voidray, has certain units or strategies that will decimate it completely.
If voidrays get too strong in the early game, im sure blizzard will find an upgrade to add.
You aren't remotely familiar with 3gate Void Ray Cheese, are you? It's a very strong all-in that's given a lot of Terran players many problems. It's only fallen out of favor because Terrans started expecting it and got better at scouting and preparing for it. It was strong enough even when scouted, and with the Void Ray strengthened, it may be a serious concern.
Warp in on higher ground is removed though. That's a pretty big nerf to that build.
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On December 11 2012 11:13 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 11:00 Acritter wrote:On December 11 2012 01:54 weikor wrote:
I think your overcalculating numbers here.
2 Widow mines kill 1 voidray in 0 Seconds.
1 Widow mine kills a marine in 0 seconds
Does the high DPS of the widow mine mean they are broken?
The reason the widow mine is balanced is because the widow mine, like the voidray, has certain units or strategies that will decimate it completely.
If voidrays get too strong in the early game, im sure blizzard will find an upgrade to add.
You aren't remotely familiar with 3gate Void Ray Cheese, are you? It's a very strong all-in that's given a lot of Terran players many problems. It's only fallen out of favor because Terrans started expecting it and got better at scouting and preparing for it. It was strong enough even when scouted, and with the Void Ray strengthened, it may be a serious concern. Warp in on higher ground is removed though. That's a pretty big nerf to that build.
Indeed. While it can still be used against lower level opponents, more skilled players can be easily prepared for this without a high ground warp in option. It's critical to the success of the build.
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On December 10 2012 12:58 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Phoenixes might be fast enough to dodge the new fungal, but Voids definitely aren't, and fungal+Hydra is quite cost efficient vs Void heavy air compositions.
This might work if your opponent is extremely terrible. You do realize that the fungal projectile is so slow a thor can dodge it right? With the latest patch using fungal as a reasonable answer to counter anything basically says "Hey I'm bronze and I cant move a unit slightly to the left or right at the correct time". Against good players infestors are completely useless against any unit faster than a thor. Go play against a friend using infestors and micro 2-3 voids when they come into range. With 2+ minutes of practice you'll never get snagged again.
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This really sounds like too much damage and too quick deaths. "Critical number" is going to become a problem again.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
You do realize that the fungal projectile is so slow a thor can dodge it right?
You cant look at if X unit can dodge the shot like that. If you fire from 8 range (instead of trying to tag the edge of the thor from fungal radius, 8+2 range), there's a 0.6 second travel time on the shot, and thor can only move ~56% of the way out of it in any direction, for example.
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On December 11 2012 12:40 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote + You do realize that the fungal projectile is so slow a thor can dodge it right? You cant look at if X unit can dodge the shot like that. If you fire from 8 range (instead of trying to tag the edge of the thor from fungal radius, 8+2 range), there's a 0.6 second travel time on the shot, and thor can only move ~56% of the way out of it in any direction, for example.
And that assumes zero reaction time (normally going to be 200ms or more).
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stalkers cost 125 - 50 - 2
void rays cost 250 - 150 - 3
it should be a 3-1 advantage to the voids
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On December 11 2012 14:37 Razorspine wrote:
stalkers cost 125 - 50 - 2
void rays cost 250 - 150 - 3
it should be a 3-1 advantage to the voids
Supply is the most valuable resource and there it is only 3-2 ... which is a reasonable ratio.
The problem is that Stalkers in particular can outmicro the Void Ray once you have blink and ensure that none of them dies while killing the Void Ray. The only way to "neutralize" this is to bring a critical number of Void Rays so they can basically one-shot the Stalkers. That is a boring thing to watch AND quite imbalanced for the gameplay though ...
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I've been in a number of games that involves transition from ground/robo to mass void rays. If i was playing protoss, i would most likely crush mass mech (unless it was very well fortified with ALOT of widow mines). If i was at the receiving end, 90% of my games are about losing all my factory/starport units with record time. I guess i should have turtled behind a massive field of missile turrets. But mech with a decent amount of vikings and cannon mode thors DO NOT handle a heavy vr comp well at all.
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On December 11 2012 14:41 Novacute wrote:
I've been in a number of games that involves transition from ground/robo to mass void rays. If i was playing protoss, i would most likely crush mass mech (unless it was very well fortified with ALOT of widow mines). If i was at the receiving end, 90% of my games are losing all my factory/starport units with record time. I guess i should have turtled behind a massive field of missile turrets. But mech with a decent amount of vikings and cannon mode thors DO NOT handle vr well at all.
For a 6 supply unit the new AA of the Thor doesnt deal nearly enough damage ... but if they increased it the damage would most likely be too high.
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On December 08 2012 07:24 Rnevermore wrote:
I worry about the power of mass void rays vs Terran mech now. I am not completely sure what a meching Terran can do to stop it.
I'm also concerned about this. Void rays basically kill everything now really really fast.
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interesting stuff thanks for the info. Good on the request for the bunker and marines that will be useful.
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On December 11 2012 14:43 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 14:41 Novacute wrote:
I've been in a number of games that involves transition from ground/robo to mass void rays. If i was playing protoss, i would most likely crush mass mech (unless it was very well fortified with ALOT of widow mines). If i was at the receiving end, 90% of my games are losing all my factory/starport units with record time. I guess i should have turtled behind a massive field of missile turrets. But mech with a decent amount of vikings and cannon mode thors DO NOT handle vr well at all. For a 6 supply unit the new AA of the Thor doesnt deal nearly enough damage ... but if they increased it the damage would most likely be too high.
I don't think a buff to HIP would be out of order. As it is currently its really pretty useless. Raising the damage to something like 25+10 vs. armored would give it bigger role without being OP when you consider the overall cost of the Thor.
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On December 11 2012 14:59 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 14:43 Rabiator wrote:On December 11 2012 14:41 Novacute wrote:
I've been in a number of games that involves transition from ground/robo to mass void rays. If i was playing protoss, i would most likely crush mass mech (unless it was very well fortified with ALOT of widow mines). If i was at the receiving end, 90% of my games are losing all my factory/starport units with record time. I guess i should have turtled behind a massive field of missile turrets. But mech with a decent amount of vikings and cannon mode thors DO NOT handle vr well at all. For a 6 supply unit the new AA of the Thor doesnt deal nearly enough damage ... but if they increased it the damage would most likely be too high. I don't think a buff to HIP would be out of order. As it is currently its really pretty useless. Raising the damage to something like 25+10 vs. armored would give it bigger role without being OP when you consider the overall cost of the Thor.
Please not another "bonus" damage attack for Terrans. They already are limited the most in the flexibility of their units by this compared to other races.
I would much rather have both AA attacks be replaced by something like this:
On December 11 2012 02:51 Rabiator wrote:
The old splash attack is removed and replaced by 4 shots of X damage (no bonus damage restrictions) which hit separate targets - if avalable - OR a single target if only one is around OR the Thor is told to attack that unit. This would add a lot of decisions to the Thor, remove the abusive magic boxing (which made the Thor useless against the unit it was designed against) and allows for a relatively high amount of single target damage.
This system would give "swarm defense" without the abuse of magic boxing but also the flexibility of focused firepower.
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Wow thanks for the information! A lot of interesting changes to it. Seems waaaaayyy better then WoL Void ray.
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On December 09 2012 03:27 FeyFey wrote:
Voidray is so easy to use now. I already miss charging micro. But if it makes people happy to use them now I don't mind.
The charge micro is gone (and this was exciting of course, with charging the void ray at rocks or a plyon of one's own) but now we have other things to micro. For example when the opponent tries to engage the void rays. Do we use prismatic alignment on all voids or are we able to just select a few, to scare the opponent away? The cooldown is quite long, one needs to make sure to have the spell ready when needed.
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Can you do it for void rays vs hydras?
On December 11 2012 02:51 Rabiator wrote:
The old splash attack is removed and replaced by 4 shots of X damage (no bonus damage restrictions) which hit separate targets - if avalable - OR a single target if only one is around OR the Thor is told to attack that unit. This would add a lot of decisions to the Thor, remove the abusive magic boxing (which made the Thor useless against the unit it was designed against) and allows for a relatively high amount of single target damage.
This system would give "swarm defense" without the abuse of magic boxing but also the flexibility of focused firepower.
TL;DR : Please make it so the only unit I have to build is the Thor. "abusive magic boxing" lol.
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really interesting numbers, ty for posting them.
I learned that one voidray to attack turrets works wonders when 2 or 3 oracles go beserk in the mineral line at the same time! If u r careful u kill the turret, a lot of workers and save ur oracles and even a damged void ray.
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while i really love the new design of the protoss stargate fleet, i think that both the oracle and the VR will have to be slightly nerfed
or if blizzard continues the new philosophy from the last patch they will just create some OP counters to both of them, either is fine for me 
like i already said in case of the oracle id say nerf speed slightly and make their attack zero range (kinda like irradiated SV), this way hydras will punish early oracle harass even harder and thus make it more risky
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