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On December 08 2012 07:22 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Void Ray vs Stalker: This is a huge difference. If they use their charge power, Void Rays now kill Stalkers in 5.5 seconds, and only take 42 damage in response. In fact, Voids can easily take on and kill 2 Stalkers at once now. Previously, killing a Stalker took a Void Ray 10.2 seconds, and it would take 98 damage in return—and 2 Stalkers could kill a Void Ray in a direct fight. I repeat: this is huge. New Void Rays kill Stalkers almost twice as quickly. If the Void doesn’t use charge, it will take 8.5 seconds to kill the Stalker and will take 84 damage in return—not as dominant as with charge, but still a step up from the pre-patch Void.
This is not as big of a game changer as people are making it out to be. The charge power has a cooldown on it, so it's not like void rays will rampage through armies of stalkers. If you're in the scenario of blink stalker vs. stargate and they get void rays, it will take them a really long time to get enough void rays to wreck an army of stalkers. And even if they go double stargate, they won't have enough army to beat your first push. I don't see void rays becoming a force to be reckoned with in PvP beyond what they are now (from what I've seen, for attacking collosus late game). I haven't seen anybody go mass void ray ever, except for in like 2v2s... and even then I just laugh and watch my archon splash destroy them.
I would like to see, or maybe even do testing of my own for seeing how quickly it takes down a roach, as thats really all I use the void ray for. They provide excellent defense for the early-mid game while setting up a third base. So having the charge buff may make them even better for this defensive purpose.
Thank you so much for posting this information, I'll try to contribute more to the research tonight.
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On December 08 2012 08:45 unteqair wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 08:29 Skyro wrote:On December 08 2012 08:09 unteqair wrote:On December 08 2012 08:00 Skyro wrote:Out of all the things you pointed out I am only concerned in PvP vs Stalkers. Everything else is either still cost efficient vs VRs or can be mitigated with micro. In PvP however Stalkers will be the only mobile form of defense unless you went stargate yourself, and Photon Cannons are the least cost effective defensive structure of the 3 races. If Stalkers are not cost effective vs VRs by at least a sizable margin (2 stalkers is only 50 less gas than a VR) then stargate openers will be the de facto opening in that matchup. As I mentioned in another thread I believe with all the buffs air units (plus some new air units) are getting in HotS (Medivacs, VRs, Phoenix, Mutas, etc.) Stalkers need to have a stronger AtG attack. On December 08 2012 07:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Thanks a lot for this data!
Loving the new changes.
@Treehead
Remember stalkers can out run void rays, meaning if you're in big trouble you cooould run your stalkers and then probes around until more stalkers come out.
Actually you could micro against them to help pass the 20 seconds right? Since void ray attacks in fast intervals and stalkers attacks in bigger intervals, you can attack, and run a little. If they keep chasing, then keep attacking (they won't be attacking all the time because you run faster). If they try to just kill a pylon or probe or such, you turn back around and get a quick shot off, and back off again.
@OP I was going to think that, since phoenixes already only barely beat void rays, that this vs phoenix buff might be too much, however small it is. But then I remembered now that phoenixes can kite void rays forever :D While yes Stalkers can outrun VRs you have to remember the VR beam also "locks-on" the target for quite a bit outside VRs range of 6. If 1 VR kills a Stalker when charged in 5.5s then if they hit you with 3 charged VRs early running away won't be an option as it will just die before it can run out of range. I'm ok with all of that because I think watching stargate units is more exciting than gateway units. There really is a lot more room for battles around the map with this, and the dynamic between the five stargate units should bring some needed flavor to this matchup. I always found Stalkers to be one of the more boring units of the game. First of all regardless how "exciting" you think it may be, having 1 dominant strategy that is going to be used the vast majority of the time will eventually make it boring. The much hated 4-gate, while much hated by the community at large, was actually quite an exciting micro battle involving tight timings and slim margins of victory. Second of all I do not think you understand the dynamics of PvP air play. It basically boils down to who can make more Phoenixes faster and then just go and win one engagement and proceed to win the game. There is a huge "avalanche" effect with Phoenix vs Phoenix air battles. The only viable solution to this and the potential VR issue is, as I stated above, buffing Stalkers AtG attack so that they can actually function to counter VRs and Phoenixes cost effectively. If this is what you think, then I don't think you understand the matchup, nor the utility that Stalkers still have. 4-gate is not "exciting." And what is the point of putting "exciting" in quotations?
Oh? Please enlighten me on how mirror Stargate openers play out at high levels currently in WoL (and which should remain relatively the same in HotS due to no new units/mechanics that should affect Phoenixes in PvP).
4-Gate is exciting to some people. I'm using it as an analogy of a devolution of strategy due to a dominant strategy that some people may find exciting.
And I put "exciting" in quotations because most people do not find mass Phoenix vs Phoenix battles exciting.
I have no idea what you are trying to say about the utility of the Stalkers. If you are trying to say Blink Stalker openers counter Stargate openers in WoL that has no bearing on the discussion because currently HotS VRs melt Stalkers.
Thus you are forced to make a Stargate to counter Stargate, which then leads to the mass Phoenix battles. You can't even scout a Stargate and react with your own because your opponent will already have the upperhand on Phoenix production!
My point is that a big reason VRs are hard to balance is due to this Stalker/VR dynamic. Stalkers being Protoss' only GtA unit but so weak as a unit DPS/cost is the problem, not the VR itself. The solution is to buff Stalkers GtA.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
@Skyro - Stalkers don't have to necessarily be cost-efficient against Void Rays for Stargate openers to not take over. And keep in mind Stalkers do actually beat them 1:1 resource cost wise *if the Void Ray isn't charged up*. So baiting charge will be a pretty important micro tactic. Combine that with the MSC's defense, Guardian Shield, the fact that Stalkers can be warped in so the Stalker player should always have more resources in the fight than the Void Ray player, and potentially Blink Micro, and I wouldn't worry too much. It's a complicated thing we can't simulate in our heads, and it definitely sounds like the Stalker player has the tools to defend an early Void Ray attack.
As for the mid-game, I think it get's even worse for the Void Ray-ing player. The Stalker player's force is far more mobile so it can secure more expansions, it's upgrades work with the rest of it's army, large numbers of Void Rays are notoriously weak against Splash (storm ofc!), I really am not too worried about these attacks. Maybe proxy Void Ray all ins will be scary, idk. Mothership Core good unit.
@the people debating Void Rays vs Thors - Thors do not wreck Void Rays. 1 Void Ray beats 1 Thor (for 3/4 the gas cost). That said, between the new shared air upgrades, Widow Mines, the ability to mass repair Thors and build Turrets on defense, and the fact that Thors old Splash attack still wrecks Void Rays in any large numbers, I don't think the Mech player has anything to worry about besides being surprised. Even then, mass repair is super good (especially with increased Thor size...)
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On December 08 2012 09:16 ZjiublingZ wrote:
@Skyro - Stalkers don't have to necessarily be cost-efficient against Void Rays for Stargate openers to not take over. And keep in mind Stalkers do actually beat them 1:1 resource cost wise *if the Void Ray isn't charged up*. So baiting charge will be a pretty important micro tactic. Combine that with the MSC's defense, Guardian Shield, the fact that Stalkers can be warped in so the Stalker player should always have more resources in the fight than the Void Ray player, and potentially Blink Micro, and I wouldn't worry too much. It's a complicated thing we can't simulate in our heads, and it definitely sounds like the Stalker player has the tools to defend an early Void Ray attack.
As for the mid-game, I think it get's even worse for the Void Ray-ing player. The Stalker player's force is far more mobile so it can secure more expansions, it's upgrades work with the rest of it's army, large numbers of Void Rays are notoriously weak against Splash (storm ofc!), I really am not too worried about these attacks. Maybe proxy Void Ray all ins will be scary, idk. Mothership Core good unit.
@the people debating Void Rays vs Thors - Thors do not wreck Void Rays. 1 Void Ray beats 1 Thor (for 3/4 the gas cost). That said, between the new shared air upgrades, Widow Mines, the ability to mass repair Thors and build Turrets on defense, and the fact that Thors old Splash attack still wrecks Void Rays in any large numbers, I don't think the Mech player has anything to worry about besides being surprised. Even then, mass repair is super good (especially with increased Thor size...)
As currently implemented I don't think it is as simple as baiting charges. There is a lock-on mechanic that with enough DPS (which seems to be ~3 VRs) micro'ing away after being targeted will be pointless. And just simply running away to let VRs rampage your base isn't an option either as it currently lasts 20s which is a looong time. Is that long enough to burn down a Nexus (too lazy to calculate)? That would be GG right there.
But what it boils down to is not that it will be some unbeatable strategy. 4-Gate, outside of very early on in the game's lifespan, was not an unbeatable strategy. It still however had serious ramifications on the PvP metagame, that much cannot be denied. I think the current iteration of VRs in HotS will have a similar effect, and while you can certainly make the case to tweak the VR further (as they likely will of course), I am making the arguement that the core issue is the Stalker as trying to balance the VR around the current Stalker is challenging to say the least.
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On December 08 2012 07:24 Rnevermore wrote:
I worry about the power of mass void rays vs Terran mech now. I am not completely sure what a meching Terran can do to stop it.
Voids are expensive as fuck. Play skytoss from start is almost imposible in high level PvT. And if the P have room to switch to voids, that mean that the P was already ahead.
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On December 08 2012 08:05 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 07:26 awesomoecalypse wrote:On December 08 2012 07:24 Rnevermore wrote:
I worry about the power of mass void rays vs Terran mech now. I am not completely sure what a meching Terran can do to stop it. the new Thor completely wrecks Void Rays. Proof?
Vikings with kiting, and some thor support so that he has to worry about splitting
but yes i would like some proof
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On December 08 2012 09:13 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 08:45 unteqair wrote:On December 08 2012 08:29 Skyro wrote:On December 08 2012 08:09 unteqair wrote:On December 08 2012 08:00 Skyro wrote:Out of all the things you pointed out I am only concerned in PvP vs Stalkers. Everything else is either still cost efficient vs VRs or can be mitigated with micro. In PvP however Stalkers will be the only mobile form of defense unless you went stargate yourself, and Photon Cannons are the least cost effective defensive structure of the 3 races. If Stalkers are not cost effective vs VRs by at least a sizable margin (2 stalkers is only 50 less gas than a VR) then stargate openers will be the de facto opening in that matchup. As I mentioned in another thread I believe with all the buffs air units (plus some new air units) are getting in HotS (Medivacs, VRs, Phoenix, Mutas, etc.) Stalkers need to have a stronger AtG attack. On December 08 2012 07:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Thanks a lot for this data!
Loving the new changes.
@Treehead
Remember stalkers can out run void rays, meaning if you're in big trouble you cooould run your stalkers and then probes around until more stalkers come out.
Actually you could micro against them to help pass the 20 seconds right? Since void ray attacks in fast intervals and stalkers attacks in bigger intervals, you can attack, and run a little. If they keep chasing, then keep attacking (they won't be attacking all the time because you run faster). If they try to just kill a pylon or probe or such, you turn back around and get a quick shot off, and back off again.
@OP I was going to think that, since phoenixes already only barely beat void rays, that this vs phoenix buff might be too much, however small it is. But then I remembered now that phoenixes can kite void rays forever :D While yes Stalkers can outrun VRs you have to remember the VR beam also "locks-on" the target for quite a bit outside VRs range of 6. If 1 VR kills a Stalker when charged in 5.5s then if they hit you with 3 charged VRs early running away won't be an option as it will just die before it can run out of range. I'm ok with all of that because I think watching stargate units is more exciting than gateway units. There really is a lot more room for battles around the map with this, and the dynamic between the five stargate units should bring some needed flavor to this matchup. I always found Stalkers to be one of the more boring units of the game. First of all regardless how "exciting" you think it may be, having 1 dominant strategy that is going to be used the vast majority of the time will eventually make it boring. The much hated 4-gate, while much hated by the community at large, was actually quite an exciting micro battle involving tight timings and slim margins of victory. Second of all I do not think you understand the dynamics of PvP air play. It basically boils down to who can make more Phoenixes faster and then just go and win one engagement and proceed to win the game. There is a huge "avalanche" effect with Phoenix vs Phoenix air battles. The only viable solution to this and the potential VR issue is, as I stated above, buffing Stalkers AtG attack so that they can actually function to counter VRs and Phoenixes cost effectively. If this is what you think, then I don't think you understand the matchup, nor the utility that Stalkers still have. 4-gate is not "exciting." And what is the point of putting "exciting" in quotations? Oh? Please enlighten me on how mirror Stargate openers play out at high levels currently in WoL (and which should remain relatively the same in HotS due to no new units/mechanics that should affect Phoenixes in PvP). 4-Gate is exciting to some people. I'm using it as an analogy of a devolution of strategy due to a dominant strategy that some people may find exciting. And I put "exciting" in quotations because most people do not find mass Phoenix vs Phoenix battles exciting. I have no idea what you are trying to say about the utility of the Stalkers. If you are trying to say Blink Stalker openers counter Stargate openers in WoL that has no bearing on the discussion because currently HotS VRs melt Stalkers. Thus you are forced to make a Stargate to counter Stargate, which then leads to the mass Phoenix battles. You can't even scout a Stargate and react with your own because your opponent will already have the upperhand on Phoenix production! My point is that a big reason VRs are hard to balance is due to this Stalker/VR dynamic. Stalkers being Protoss' only GtA unit but so weak as a unit DPS/cost is the problem, not the VR itself. The solution is to buff Stalkers GtA.
No. In the current build of HotS it is far more of a balancing act than you are willing to admit. This is just yet another plea to have stalkers buffed. This unit cannot be buffed to be cost efficient vs. anything because it can be spammed, resources can be dumped into it very quickly, has excellent range, can be warped in around the map, is extremely fast, can teleport, can hit both air and ground, becomes much more powerful when used with ff's, and is tier 1.
You say that if two Protoss players both open Stargate that the battle will devolve into a mass Phoenix war, as producing this unit is clearly the dominant strategy; yet, you don't consider that in this situation you've created there aren't any VR's to begin with, because producing Phx is the dominant strategy, and producing a VR means forgoing one. This would be the case if Stalkers didn't exist, but they do, and this is where they come in. It won't just be mass phoenix.
I just don't think the dance between the units is as simple as you are portraying it. Yes, having the threat that dangerous units will come the Stargate encourages Phoenix production, but that's not all there is.
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Now that Void Rays are roughly twice as good vs. several of their most common foes... I'm still not sure if the unit will be viable in standard play after 10 minutes.
Yeah, that's how bad the Void Ray used to be.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 08 2012 09:28 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 09:16 ZjiublingZ wrote:
@Skyro - Stalkers don't have to necessarily be cost-efficient against Void Rays for Stargate openers to not take over. And keep in mind Stalkers do actually beat them 1:1 resource cost wise *if the Void Ray isn't charged up*. So baiting charge will be a pretty important micro tactic. Combine that with the MSC's defense, Guardian Shield, the fact that Stalkers can be warped in so the Stalker player should always have more resources in the fight than the Void Ray player, and potentially Blink Micro, and I wouldn't worry too much. It's a complicated thing we can't simulate in our heads, and it definitely sounds like the Stalker player has the tools to defend an early Void Ray attack.
As for the mid-game, I think it get's even worse for the Void Ray-ing player. The Stalker player's force is far more mobile so it can secure more expansions, it's upgrades work with the rest of it's army, large numbers of Void Rays are notoriously weak against Splash (storm ofc!), I really am not too worried about these attacks. Maybe proxy Void Ray all ins will be scary, idk. Mothership Core good unit.
@the people debating Void Rays vs Thors - Thors do not wreck Void Rays. 1 Void Ray beats 1 Thor (for 3/4 the gas cost). That said, between the new shared air upgrades, Widow Mines, the ability to mass repair Thors and build Turrets on defense, and the fact that Thors old Splash attack still wrecks Void Rays in any large numbers, I don't think the Mech player has anything to worry about besides being surprised. Even then, mass repair is super good (especially with increased Thor size...) As currently implemented I don't think it is as simple as baiting charges. There is a lock-on mechanic that with enough DPS (which seems to be ~3 VRs) micro'ing away after being targeted will be pointless. And just simply running away to let VRs rampage your base isn't an option either as it currently lasts 20s which is a looong time. Is that long enough to burn down a Nexus (too lazy to calculate)? That would be GG right there. But what it boils down to is not that it will be some unbeatable strategy. 4-Gate, outside of very early on in the game's lifespan, was not an unbeatable strategy. It still however had serious ramifications on the PvP metagame, that much cannot be denied. I think the current iteration of VRs in HotS will have a similar effect, and while you can certainly make the case to tweak the VR further (as they likely will of course), I am making the arguement that the core issue is the Stalker as trying to balance the VR around the current Stalker is challenging to say the least.
I hear you man, but I gave more examples of Stalkers having an advantage over Void Rays beyond baiting/running away from charges. If you want the case you are making to have some weight you should address ALL the points I made, because there are more advantages for Stalkers than just the one you cherry-picked from my post, a few specifically about defenders advantage that are worth considering in your example of Void Rays being your base! You gotta address all of them if you want to seriously make the argument you are trying to make.
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Storm deals with void rays just fine en mass if it actually comes to that. Doubt it will. In more worried about void ray all ins in pvt with this change. A better void ray with the mother ship core sound really scary to me. Nothing has changed for the Terran in the early game.
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On December 08 2012 11:28 unteqair wrote:
No. In the current build of HotS it is far more of a balancing act than you are willing to admit. This is just yet another plea to have stalkers buffed.
Yes, it is beta, balancing happens in beta. What is it exactly am I trying to not admit here? This is where you can make changes to core units because that is harder to do on release.
This unit cannot be buffed to be cost efficient vs. anything because it can be spammed, resources can be dumped into it very quickly, has excellent range, can be warped in around the map, is extremely fast, can teleport, can hit both air and ground, becomes much more powerful when used with ff's, and is tier 1.
Protoss' only GtA unit cannot be cost efficient vs air? That is one of the core design principles of every single RTS ever made. You break that and it causes other problems. Yes, Stalkers are versatile. I'm not suggesting a straight across the board buff, I'm asking specifically for their GtA capabilities. What does FF have anything to do with that?
You say that if two Protoss players both open Stargate that the battle will devolve into a mass Phoenix war, as producing this unit is clearly the dominant strategy; yet, you don't consider that in this situation you've created there aren't any VR's to begin with, because producing Phx is the dominant strategy, and producing a VR means forgoing one. This would be the case if Stalkers didn't exist, but they do, and this is where they come in. It won't just be mass phoenix.
I never said there would be VRs in mirror Stargate openers. I'm specifically saying that if VRs are buffed to be cost efficient vs Stalkers to the point where Stargate openers is the dominant strategy, that will lead to eye-gouging mass Phoenix battles in PvP. The existence (e.g. threat) of VRs are simply the catalyst that leads to mass Phoenix.
I just don't think the dance between the units is as simple as you are portraying it. Yes, having the threat that dangerous units will come the Stargate encourages Phoenix production, but that's not all there is.
It depends entirely if Stargate openers becomes the dominant strategy or not. If it is, then yes, it is that simple. Mass phoenix will beat Phoenix + Stalkers, generally speaking. There is a reason it is basically an "arms race" of who has more Phoenix in mirror Stargate openers.
Like I said, they very well could tweak (nerf) the VR, retaining Stalker cost efficiency vs VRs and Stargate then no longer becomes a dominant strategy. But now the VR is no longer cost efficient vs other races' armored AA units and you're back at square one, a unit nobody will use.
You could, alternatively, nerf VRs AtG attack specifically, but again you are balancing around the Stalker specifically. What does buffing Stalker's GtA attack would throw balance out of whack? Nearly every air unit in HotS has been buffed. How effective do you think Stalkers will be stopping Medivac drops now? How much stronger are Mutas going to be now vs non-stargate openers? Exactly.
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On December 08 2012 11:21 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 08:05 link0 wrote:On December 08 2012 07:26 awesomoecalypse wrote:On December 08 2012 07:24 Rnevermore wrote:
I worry about the power of mass void rays vs Terran mech now. I am not completely sure what a meching Terran can do to stop it. the new Thor completely wrecks Void Rays. Proof? Vikings with kiting, and some thor support so that he has to worry about splitting but yes i would like some proof
actually, you guts are 100% right and I was making totally unfounded assumptions. My bad, I dunno why but for some reason in the back of my head I thought Thors had 2 armor, which they don't.
I just ran the numbers, and a charged Void Ray vs. a Thor with HIP will kill the Thor in 13.5 seconds, and will have 82 hp left--obviously repair changes that calculation, and the ratio changes as you get more Void Rays and Thors because the Thor splash attack is actually decent against Voids (since they don't have any armor). If the Void isn't charged, the Thor will trade roughly even with Vikings.
So...yeah. I dunno if going pure mech really provides an effective answer to the new Void Ray. Normally with Vikings+bioball, you just use the Viking range to force the Voids to fly over the Marines and get shredded. But if there aren't many marines in play, Voids will defeat both Vikings and Thors pretty badly. SCV repair can swing things the other way of course, but that costs money and comes with its own vulnerabilities (e.g., losing all your scvs to storm and/or colossi).
They might need to buff High Impact Payload a bit more. Maybe give it a damage bonus vs. armored. Right now it does 12 dps, which really isn't that strong for a single target attack from a T3 unit that costs 300/200. If HIP dealt 25+10 vs armored, for example, Thors would be on pretty even footing with Void Rays, and significantly more helpful vs capital ships and colossi.
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On December 08 2012 12:00 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 09:28 Skyro wrote:On December 08 2012 09:16 ZjiublingZ wrote:
@Skyro - Stalkers don't have to necessarily be cost-efficient against Void Rays for Stargate openers to not take over. And keep in mind Stalkers do actually beat them 1:1 resource cost wise *if the Void Ray isn't charged up*. So baiting charge will be a pretty important micro tactic. Combine that with the MSC's defense, Guardian Shield, the fact that Stalkers can be warped in so the Stalker player should always have more resources in the fight than the Void Ray player, and potentially Blink Micro, and I wouldn't worry too much. It's a complicated thing we can't simulate in our heads, and it definitely sounds like the Stalker player has the tools to defend an early Void Ray attack.
As for the mid-game, I think it get's even worse for the Void Ray-ing player. The Stalker player's force is far more mobile so it can secure more expansions, it's upgrades work with the rest of it's army, large numbers of Void Rays are notoriously weak against Splash (storm ofc!), I really am not too worried about these attacks. Maybe proxy Void Ray all ins will be scary, idk. Mothership Core good unit.
@the people debating Void Rays vs Thors - Thors do not wreck Void Rays. 1 Void Ray beats 1 Thor (for 3/4 the gas cost). That said, between the new shared air upgrades, Widow Mines, the ability to mass repair Thors and build Turrets on defense, and the fact that Thors old Splash attack still wrecks Void Rays in any large numbers, I don't think the Mech player has anything to worry about besides being surprised. Even then, mass repair is super good (especially with increased Thor size...) As currently implemented I don't think it is as simple as baiting charges. There is a lock-on mechanic that with enough DPS (which seems to be ~3 VRs) micro'ing away after being targeted will be pointless. And just simply running away to let VRs rampage your base isn't an option either as it currently lasts 20s which is a looong time. Is that long enough to burn down a Nexus (too lazy to calculate)? That would be GG right there. But what it boils down to is not that it will be some unbeatable strategy. 4-Gate, outside of very early on in the game's lifespan, was not an unbeatable strategy. It still however had serious ramifications on the PvP metagame, that much cannot be denied. I think the current iteration of VRs in HotS will have a similar effect, and while you can certainly make the case to tweak the VR further (as they likely will of course), I am making the arguement that the core issue is the Stalker as trying to balance the VR around the current Stalker is challenging to say the least. I hear you man, but I gave more examples of Stalkers having an advantage over Void Rays beyond baiting/running away from charges. If you want the case you are making to have some weight you should address ALL the points I made, because there are more advantages for Stalkers than just the one you cherry-picked from my post, a few specifically about defenders advantage that are worth considering in your example of Void Rays being your base! You gotta address all of them if you want to seriously make the argument you are trying to make.
The VR was already nerfed due to the VR/Stalker mechanic in the past, and the only thing you pointed out that is new in HotS is the MsC. Definitely the MsC is a strong defensive unit, but it is a static unit. We'll see how it plays out, but honestly an air unit being anywhere near cost efficient vs the only core GtA unit is just bad design.
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We'll see how it plays out, but honestly an air unit being anywhere near cost efficient vs the only core GtA unit is just bad design.
The thing is, Blizzard has said they want pure air to be a viable composition for Protoss, with Void Rays as the "core" unit, supplemented by Phoenixes and Oracles depending on composition, and eventually Tempests/Carriers as the game goes on.
Stalkers already beat Phoenixes and Oracles for cost. If Stalkers beat Voids, then pure air will not be a viable composition, at least in PvP, because Stalkers can be massed much more quickly than Voids.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 08 2012 12:45 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +We'll see how it plays out, but honestly an air unit being anywhere near cost efficient vs the only core GtA unit is just bad design. The thing is, Blizzard has said they want pure air to be a viable composition for Protoss, with Void Rays as the "core" unit, supplemented by Phoenixes and Oracles depending on composition, and eventually Tempests/Carriers as the game goes on. Stalkers already beat Phoenixes and Oracles for cost. If Stalkers beat Voids, then pure air will not be a viable composition, at least in PvP, because Stalkers can be massed much more quickly than Voids.
I think this is a BIG assumption on your part. They said they wanted Stargate units to be a viable composition - that doesn't mean they wouldn't be supported by gateway units. In WoL Stargate play was, with very few exceptions, a tech you would open, but never really keep around for very long or continually produce. I interpreted their comment as them wanting to change Stargate so that it was like WoL Robo: where you would for a very long time continue to use Immortals and/or Colossus as part of your core army.
EDIT: Perhaps I missed a blue post though, so if you have one where you feel like it's very clear they are saying what you're saying they are, please show me to it! :D
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On December 08 2012 12:28 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 12:00 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 08 2012 09:28 Skyro wrote:On December 08 2012 09:16 ZjiublingZ wrote:
@Skyro - Stalkers don't have to necessarily be cost-efficient against Void Rays for Stargate openers to not take over. And keep in mind Stalkers do actually beat them 1:1 resource cost wise *if the Void Ray isn't charged up*. So baiting charge will be a pretty important micro tactic. Combine that with the MSC's defense, Guardian Shield, the fact that Stalkers can be warped in so the Stalker player should always have more resources in the fight than the Void Ray player, and potentially Blink Micro, and I wouldn't worry too much. It's a complicated thing we can't simulate in our heads, and it definitely sounds like the Stalker player has the tools to defend an early Void Ray attack.
As for the mid-game, I think it get's even worse for the Void Ray-ing player. The Stalker player's force is far more mobile so it can secure more expansions, it's upgrades work with the rest of it's army, large numbers of Void Rays are notoriously weak against Splash (storm ofc!), I really am not too worried about these attacks. Maybe proxy Void Ray all ins will be scary, idk. Mothership Core good unit.
@the people debating Void Rays vs Thors - Thors do not wreck Void Rays. 1 Void Ray beats 1 Thor (for 3/4 the gas cost). That said, between the new shared air upgrades, Widow Mines, the ability to mass repair Thors and build Turrets on defense, and the fact that Thors old Splash attack still wrecks Void Rays in any large numbers, I don't think the Mech player has anything to worry about besides being surprised. Even then, mass repair is super good (especially with increased Thor size...) As currently implemented I don't think it is as simple as baiting charges. There is a lock-on mechanic that with enough DPS (which seems to be ~3 VRs) micro'ing away after being targeted will be pointless. And just simply running away to let VRs rampage your base isn't an option either as it currently lasts 20s which is a looong time. Is that long enough to burn down a Nexus (too lazy to calculate)? That would be GG right there. But what it boils down to is not that it will be some unbeatable strategy. 4-Gate, outside of very early on in the game's lifespan, was not an unbeatable strategy. It still however had serious ramifications on the PvP metagame, that much cannot be denied. I think the current iteration of VRs in HotS will have a similar effect, and while you can certainly make the case to tweak the VR further (as they likely will of course), I am making the arguement that the core issue is the Stalker as trying to balance the VR around the current Stalker is challenging to say the least. I hear you man, but I gave more examples of Stalkers having an advantage over Void Rays beyond baiting/running away from charges. If you want the case you are making to have some weight you should address ALL the points I made, because there are more advantages for Stalkers than just the one you cherry-picked from my post, a few specifically about defenders advantage that are worth considering in your example of Void Rays being your base! You gotta address all of them if you want to seriously make the argument you are trying to make. The VR was already nerfed due to the VR/Stalker mechanic in the past, and the only thing you pointed out that is new in HotS is the MsC. Definitely the MsC is a strong defensive unit, but it is a static unit. We'll see how it plays out, but honestly an air unit being anywhere near cost efficient vs the only core GtA unit is just bad design.
This is why Voids are intentionally so bad against Marines and Hydras. But in mirrors.... well, don't we already have an example of air which is kinda good against GtA (in banshees vs. marines in TvT) - and I could be wrong but I think the verdict was that Banshees are pretty good against stalkers en masse.
In fact, doing the numbers:
1.5 Stalkers = 240 health / 10.4 dps against banshees (187/75/3)
1 Banshee = 140 health / 17.2 dps against stalkers (150/100/3)
1 Banshee takes 13.95 seconds to kill 1.5 stalkers.
1.5 stalkers take 13.46 seconds to kill 1 banshee.
The banshee also has a slight edge because it's a bigger supply unit, and therefore it loses dps later in the fight (where smaller units lose dps earlier). And don't forget - banshees can cloak, too.
The main reasons we don't see Banshees dominating in TvP?? It takes more gas to get a ton of banshees, and therefore it's impossible to get a ton of banshees early. And to compound this notion, the unit structure required to make banshees comes out later and also requires gas to make. Do these comments remind you at all of the VR?
If there is a problem, I don't think it's the Void. I personally think it's crazy how close the stalker is to being inefficient against air units. Doesn't seem right. But then, they also get blink, so....
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On December 08 2012 11:45 Zato-1 wrote:
Now that Void Rays are roughly twice as good vs. several of their most common foes... I'm still not sure if the unit will be viable in standard play after 10 minutes.
Yeah, that's how bad the Void Ray used to be.
hahahahaha so true, so true. Aww now you made me sad that I have to watch WoL for 3 more months.
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To do a similar analysis for Stalkers v. Voids (with a 1.5 minerals per 1 gas equivalence ratio, similar to the numbers for the banshee analysis above):
2.28 Stalkers (342/114 after 25 minerals per supply)
365 health
22.1 dps
1 Void (287/150 after 25 minerals per supply)
250 health
30 dps vs. stalkers (while charged)
18 dps vs. stalkers (uncharged)
Void takes 12.17 seconds to kill 2.28 stalkers while charged.
2.28 stalkers take 11.31 seconds to kill a void.
(Sidenote: uncharged, a void takes 20.27 seconds to kill 2.28 stalkers.)
Void does have more advantage due to being low supply, and having losing dps later in the fight - but it is a bit nonsensical to consider stalkers a counter to banshees but not to voids, based on these numbers alone. (And again, banshees can cloak).
Edit: Altered Stalker numbers, bah - musta miscalced earlier.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 08 2012 13:14 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 12:28 Skyro wrote:On December 08 2012 12:00 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 08 2012 09:28 Skyro wrote:On December 08 2012 09:16 ZjiublingZ wrote:
@Skyro - Stalkers don't have to necessarily be cost-efficient against Void Rays for Stargate openers to not take over. And keep in mind Stalkers do actually beat them 1:1 resource cost wise *if the Void Ray isn't charged up*. So baiting charge will be a pretty important micro tactic. Combine that with the MSC's defense, Guardian Shield, the fact that Stalkers can be warped in so the Stalker player should always have more resources in the fight than the Void Ray player, and potentially Blink Micro, and I wouldn't worry too much. It's a complicated thing we can't simulate in our heads, and it definitely sounds like the Stalker player has the tools to defend an early Void Ray attack.
As for the mid-game, I think it get's even worse for the Void Ray-ing player. The Stalker player's force is far more mobile so it can secure more expansions, it's upgrades work with the rest of it's army, large numbers of Void Rays are notoriously weak against Splash (storm ofc!), I really am not too worried about these attacks. Maybe proxy Void Ray all ins will be scary, idk. Mothership Core good unit.
@the people debating Void Rays vs Thors - Thors do not wreck Void Rays. 1 Void Ray beats 1 Thor (for 3/4 the gas cost). That said, between the new shared air upgrades, Widow Mines, the ability to mass repair Thors and build Turrets on defense, and the fact that Thors old Splash attack still wrecks Void Rays in any large numbers, I don't think the Mech player has anything to worry about besides being surprised. Even then, mass repair is super good (especially with increased Thor size...) As currently implemented I don't think it is as simple as baiting charges. There is a lock-on mechanic that with enough DPS (which seems to be ~3 VRs) micro'ing away after being targeted will be pointless. And just simply running away to let VRs rampage your base isn't an option either as it currently lasts 20s which is a looong time. Is that long enough to burn down a Nexus (too lazy to calculate)? That would be GG right there. But what it boils down to is not that it will be some unbeatable strategy. 4-Gate, outside of very early on in the game's lifespan, was not an unbeatable strategy. It still however had serious ramifications on the PvP metagame, that much cannot be denied. I think the current iteration of VRs in HotS will have a similar effect, and while you can certainly make the case to tweak the VR further (as they likely will of course), I am making the arguement that the core issue is the Stalker as trying to balance the VR around the current Stalker is challenging to say the least. I hear you man, but I gave more examples of Stalkers having an advantage over Void Rays beyond baiting/running away from charges. If you want the case you are making to have some weight you should address ALL the points I made, because there are more advantages for Stalkers than just the one you cherry-picked from my post, a few specifically about defenders advantage that are worth considering in your example of Void Rays being your base! You gotta address all of them if you want to seriously make the argument you are trying to make. The VR was already nerfed due to the VR/Stalker mechanic in the past, and the only thing you pointed out that is new in HotS is the MsC. Definitely the MsC is a strong defensive unit, but it is a static unit. We'll see how it plays out, but honestly an air unit being anywhere near cost efficient vs the only core GtA unit is just bad design. This is why Voids are intentionally so bad against Marines and Hydras. But in mirrors.... well, don't we already have an example of air which is kinda good against GtA (in banshees vs. marines in TvT) - and I could be wrong but I think the verdict was that Banshees are pretty good against stalkers en masse. In fact, doing the numbers: 1.5 Stalkers = 240 health / 10.4 dps against banshees (187/75/3) 1 Banshee = 140 health / 17.2 dps against stalkers (150/100/3) 1 Banshee takes 13.95 seconds to kill 1.5 stalkers. 1.5 stalkers take 13.46 seconds to kill 1 banshee. The banshee also has a slight edge because it's a bigger supply unit, and therefore it loses dps later in the fight (where smaller units lose dps earlier). And don't forget - banshees can cloak, too. The main reasons we don't see Banshees dominating in TvP?? It takes more gas to get a ton of banshees, and therefore it's impossible to get a ton of banshees early. And to compound this notion, the unit structure required to make banshees comes out later and also requires gas to make. Do these comments remind you at all of the VR? If there is a problem, I don't think it's the Void. I personally think it's crazy how close the stalker is to being inefficient against air units. Doesn't seem right. But then, they also get blink, so....
Protoss definitely does have the worst GtA units. But people too often forget that they also have the absolute best Air to Air army (if they didn't in WoL, they without a doubt do now). This is what makes the race unique - and what leads to dynamics like Mutas being strong against a Protoss who opens robo and weak against one who opens Stargate. It allows us to see different compositions against the same race. Stalkers do not need a buff just because they are the worse than the other races at GtA. That comparison has no bearing on whether or not Stalkers should be better at GtA.
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