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On December 08 2012 14:56 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 13:14 Treehead wrote:On December 08 2012 12:28 Skyro wrote:On December 08 2012 12:00 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 08 2012 09:28 Skyro wrote:On December 08 2012 09:16 ZjiublingZ wrote:
@Skyro - Stalkers don't have to necessarily be cost-efficient against Void Rays for Stargate openers to not take over. And keep in mind Stalkers do actually beat them 1:1 resource cost wise *if the Void Ray isn't charged up*. So baiting charge will be a pretty important micro tactic. Combine that with the MSC's defense, Guardian Shield, the fact that Stalkers can be warped in so the Stalker player should always have more resources in the fight than the Void Ray player, and potentially Blink Micro, and I wouldn't worry too much. It's a complicated thing we can't simulate in our heads, and it definitely sounds like the Stalker player has the tools to defend an early Void Ray attack.
As for the mid-game, I think it get's even worse for the Void Ray-ing player. The Stalker player's force is far more mobile so it can secure more expansions, it's upgrades work with the rest of it's army, large numbers of Void Rays are notoriously weak against Splash (storm ofc!), I really am not too worried about these attacks. Maybe proxy Void Ray all ins will be scary, idk. Mothership Core good unit.
@the people debating Void Rays vs Thors - Thors do not wreck Void Rays. 1 Void Ray beats 1 Thor (for 3/4 the gas cost). That said, between the new shared air upgrades, Widow Mines, the ability to mass repair Thors and build Turrets on defense, and the fact that Thors old Splash attack still wrecks Void Rays in any large numbers, I don't think the Mech player has anything to worry about besides being surprised. Even then, mass repair is super good (especially with increased Thor size...) As currently implemented I don't think it is as simple as baiting charges. There is a lock-on mechanic that with enough DPS (which seems to be ~3 VRs) micro'ing away after being targeted will be pointless. And just simply running away to let VRs rampage your base isn't an option either as it currently lasts 20s which is a looong time. Is that long enough to burn down a Nexus (too lazy to calculate)? That would be GG right there. But what it boils down to is not that it will be some unbeatable strategy. 4-Gate, outside of very early on in the game's lifespan, was not an unbeatable strategy. It still however had serious ramifications on the PvP metagame, that much cannot be denied. I think the current iteration of VRs in HotS will have a similar effect, and while you can certainly make the case to tweak the VR further (as they likely will of course), I am making the arguement that the core issue is the Stalker as trying to balance the VR around the current Stalker is challenging to say the least. I hear you man, but I gave more examples of Stalkers having an advantage over Void Rays beyond baiting/running away from charges. If you want the case you are making to have some weight you should address ALL the points I made, because there are more advantages for Stalkers than just the one you cherry-picked from my post, a few specifically about defenders advantage that are worth considering in your example of Void Rays being your base! You gotta address all of them if you want to seriously make the argument you are trying to make. The VR was already nerfed due to the VR/Stalker mechanic in the past, and the only thing you pointed out that is new in HotS is the MsC. Definitely the MsC is a strong defensive unit, but it is a static unit. We'll see how it plays out, but honestly an air unit being anywhere near cost efficient vs the only core GtA unit is just bad design. This is why Voids are intentionally so bad against Marines and Hydras. But in mirrors.... well, don't we already have an example of air which is kinda good against GtA (in banshees vs. marines in TvT) - and I could be wrong but I think the verdict was that Banshees are pretty good against stalkers en masse. In fact, doing the numbers: 1.5 Stalkers = 240 health / 10.4 dps against banshees (187/75/3) 1 Banshee = 140 health / 17.2 dps against stalkers (150/100/3) 1 Banshee takes 13.95 seconds to kill 1.5 stalkers. 1.5 stalkers take 13.46 seconds to kill 1 banshee. The banshee also has a slight edge because it's a bigger supply unit, and therefore it loses dps later in the fight (where smaller units lose dps earlier). And don't forget - banshees can cloak, too. The main reasons we don't see Banshees dominating in TvP?? It takes more gas to get a ton of banshees, and therefore it's impossible to get a ton of banshees early. And to compound this notion, the unit structure required to make banshees comes out later and also requires gas to make. Do these comments remind you at all of the VR? If there is a problem, I don't think it's the Void. I personally think it's crazy how close the stalker is to being inefficient against air units. Doesn't seem right. But then, they also get blink, so.... Protoss definitely does have the worst GtA units. But people too often forget that they also have the absolute best Air to Air army (if they didn't in WoL, they without a doubt do now). This is what makes the race unique - and what leads to dynamics like Mutas being strong against a Protoss who opens robo and weak against one who opens Stargate. It allows us to see different compositions against the same race. Stalkers do not need a buff just because they are the worse than the other races at GtA. That comparison has no bearing on whether or not Stalkers should be better at GtA.
Vikings... they still don't have any air units which can hold their own against Vikings (Terran's Air to Air unit) - unless phoenix are better at it with the extra range somehow.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 08 2012 15:00 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 14:56 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 08 2012 13:14 Treehead wrote:On December 08 2012 12:28 Skyro wrote:On December 08 2012 12:00 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 08 2012 09:28 Skyro wrote:On December 08 2012 09:16 ZjiublingZ wrote:
@Skyro - Stalkers don't have to necessarily be cost-efficient against Void Rays for Stargate openers to not take over. And keep in mind Stalkers do actually beat them 1:1 resource cost wise *if the Void Ray isn't charged up*. So baiting charge will be a pretty important micro tactic. Combine that with the MSC's defense, Guardian Shield, the fact that Stalkers can be warped in so the Stalker player should always have more resources in the fight than the Void Ray player, and potentially Blink Micro, and I wouldn't worry too much. It's a complicated thing we can't simulate in our heads, and it definitely sounds like the Stalker player has the tools to defend an early Void Ray attack.
As for the mid-game, I think it get's even worse for the Void Ray-ing player. The Stalker player's force is far more mobile so it can secure more expansions, it's upgrades work with the rest of it's army, large numbers of Void Rays are notoriously weak against Splash (storm ofc!), I really am not too worried about these attacks. Maybe proxy Void Ray all ins will be scary, idk. Mothership Core good unit.
@the people debating Void Rays vs Thors - Thors do not wreck Void Rays. 1 Void Ray beats 1 Thor (for 3/4 the gas cost). That said, between the new shared air upgrades, Widow Mines, the ability to mass repair Thors and build Turrets on defense, and the fact that Thors old Splash attack still wrecks Void Rays in any large numbers, I don't think the Mech player has anything to worry about besides being surprised. Even then, mass repair is super good (especially with increased Thor size...) As currently implemented I don't think it is as simple as baiting charges. There is a lock-on mechanic that with enough DPS (which seems to be ~3 VRs) micro'ing away after being targeted will be pointless. And just simply running away to let VRs rampage your base isn't an option either as it currently lasts 20s which is a looong time. Is that long enough to burn down a Nexus (too lazy to calculate)? That would be GG right there. But what it boils down to is not that it will be some unbeatable strategy. 4-Gate, outside of very early on in the game's lifespan, was not an unbeatable strategy. It still however had serious ramifications on the PvP metagame, that much cannot be denied. I think the current iteration of VRs in HotS will have a similar effect, and while you can certainly make the case to tweak the VR further (as they likely will of course), I am making the arguement that the core issue is the Stalker as trying to balance the VR around the current Stalker is challenging to say the least. I hear you man, but I gave more examples of Stalkers having an advantage over Void Rays beyond baiting/running away from charges. If you want the case you are making to have some weight you should address ALL the points I made, because there are more advantages for Stalkers than just the one you cherry-picked from my post, a few specifically about defenders advantage that are worth considering in your example of Void Rays being your base! You gotta address all of them if you want to seriously make the argument you are trying to make. The VR was already nerfed due to the VR/Stalker mechanic in the past, and the only thing you pointed out that is new in HotS is the MsC. Definitely the MsC is a strong defensive unit, but it is a static unit. We'll see how it plays out, but honestly an air unit being anywhere near cost efficient vs the only core GtA unit is just bad design. This is why Voids are intentionally so bad against Marines and Hydras. But in mirrors.... well, don't we already have an example of air which is kinda good against GtA (in banshees vs. marines in TvT) - and I could be wrong but I think the verdict was that Banshees are pretty good against stalkers en masse. In fact, doing the numbers: 1.5 Stalkers = 240 health / 10.4 dps against banshees (187/75/3) 1 Banshee = 140 health / 17.2 dps against stalkers (150/100/3) 1 Banshee takes 13.95 seconds to kill 1.5 stalkers. 1.5 stalkers take 13.46 seconds to kill 1 banshee. The banshee also has a slight edge because it's a bigger supply unit, and therefore it loses dps later in the fight (where smaller units lose dps earlier). And don't forget - banshees can cloak, too. The main reasons we don't see Banshees dominating in TvP?? It takes more gas to get a ton of banshees, and therefore it's impossible to get a ton of banshees early. And to compound this notion, the unit structure required to make banshees comes out later and also requires gas to make. Do these comments remind you at all of the VR? If there is a problem, I don't think it's the Void. I personally think it's crazy how close the stalker is to being inefficient against air units. Doesn't seem right. But then, they also get blink, so.... Protoss definitely does have the worst GtA units. But people too often forget that they also have the absolute best Air to Air army (if they didn't in WoL, they without a doubt do now). This is what makes the race unique - and what leads to dynamics like Mutas being strong against a Protoss who opens robo and weak against one who opens Stargate. It allows us to see different compositions against the same race. Stalkers do not need a buff just because they are the worse than the other races at GtA. That comparison has no bearing on whether or not Stalkers should be better at GtA. Vikings... they still don't have any air units which can hold their own against Vikings (Terran's Air to Air unit) - unless phoenix are better at it with the extra range somehow.
Umm... Phoenix already beat Vikings cost efficiently, not to mention their huge speed advantage makes them a more advantageous unit for the Protoss to have in general compared to Vikings. The increased range is just icing on the cake.Void Rays just CRUSH them now if the Vikings don't kite as well. But yeah, Phoenix.
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First off, thanks op for grinding out all those numbers, and making the difference between old and new voids evident.
My main beef with the prismatic alignment is how one dimensional it is. You engage, or the enemy engages you... You charge some or all of the voids. I guess it's like stimpack, but with stim you have more control, and can repeatedly stim to cover lots of ground or kill stuff faster at the expense of medivac energy... With prismatic alignment, there's only one situation where it's useful, namely fighting armored units (unlike stim, which increases movement speed and dmg output vs everything). I don't know, it just seems too bland, like there's almost no difference between this ability and giving void rays a slight bonus vs armored units.
I think blizzard could make this ability a bit more strategic and more viewer intuitive (do better damage vs everything, not just armored). Example, they could make prismatic alignment take 2 seconds to charge during which the void can't move or attack, but afterward damage output would be increased vs all types... This would make voids into great attacking, heavy assault units without making them too a move-ish, due to the vulnerability while charging. Maybe just minor nitpicks, but I honestly think there's room for improvement here. Protoss air is already incredibly mobile, so they need one slow, clunky but powerful ship.
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On December 08 2012 15:19 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Umm... Phoenix already beat Vikings cost efficiently, not to mention their huge speed advantage makes them a more advantageous unit for the Protoss to have in general compared to Vikings. The increased range is just icing on the cake.Void Rays just CRUSH them now if the Vikings don't kite as well. But yeah, Phoenix.
Tested it, phoenixes beat vikings in equal numbers but not with equal cost. It's a close fight, but with equal cost the vikings come on the top.
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On December 08 2012 08:05 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 07:26 awesomoecalypse wrote:On December 08 2012 07:24 Rnevermore wrote:
I worry about the power of mass void rays vs Terran mech now. I am not completely sure what a meching Terran can do to stop it. the new Thor completely wrecks Void Rays. Proof?
Yeah, it's the opposite. However, with air upgrades being the same as mech, i assume the point is for Vikings to have better UPs then Protoss air. Thor+Vikings with UPs+Turrents+Mines, i think Terran mech anti air is decent.
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I wonder if Void Rays still get nothing from upgrades, or it's actually benefiting them now.
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On December 08 2012 20:57 ejozl wrote:
I wonder if Void Rays still get nothing from upgrades, or it's actually benefiting them now.
Given that VRs didn't gain because of the reduced charge, and that they charge now by command - yeah, they gain from upgrades like normal now.
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I think terran can be fine in the early game. The addition of the widow mine is actually pretty huge, if he stargate allins you you can run a widow mine to his base or just abuse his limited detection.
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Vikings... they still don't have any air units which can hold their own against Vikings (Terran's Air to Air unit) - unless phoenix are better at it with the extra range somehow.
Void Rays will absolutely destroy Vikings now. Vikings can kite them...but Protoss can add a couple Tempests and suddenly all kiting does is let the Protoss get free shots on your Vikings. If Vikings don't kite and Voids get in range, Voids will absolutely melt them. As I pointed out in my OP, the new Voids kill Vikings in 4 seconds.
A single Void Ray can take on 3 Vikings at once and kill them if they aren't kiting--Voids Rays are 250/150 and 3 supply and take 40 seconds to build with Chrono, 3 Vikings are 450/225 and 6 supply and take at least 42 seconds to build (if you have 2 starports and one is reactored, if not it will be more like 84 seconds), so thats a hugely cost-efficient trade for Protoss. And once Tempests are in play, Terran can't kite with Vikings without giving the Tempests free shots.
Yes, Vikings have been given a major buff via the merging of mech/air upgrades...but thats only true for Terrans with mech-heavy compositions. if Terran goes for bioball+viking+medivac (like they did in WoL), then their ability to upgrade Vikings is no better than before. This is important, because one of the advantages Vikings used to have vs. Voids was that Voids typically had to fly over a big Terran bioball to hit Vikings, at which point marines would shred the Voids. But if Terran is going air/mech for the upgrade synergy, they won't have a giant marine bioball, so the point is moot. its a tradeoff for Terran--go air/mech and have good upgrades on vikings but minimal marine support, or go for bio/air and have strong atg from marines, but fall behind on viking upgrades.
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Void Rays will absolutely destroy Vikings now. Vikings can kite them...but Protoss can add a couple Tempests and suddenly all kiting does is let the Protoss get free shots on your Vikings. If Vikings don't kite and Voids get in range, Voids will absolutely melt them. As I pointed out in my OP, the new Voids kill Vikings in 4 seconds.
Considering the dps difference between vikings and tempests, I don't know if this kind of situation is a bad thing. Sure, you will take damage but you will also do damage. As long as you manage to keep the void ray count down, tempests are easy to kill on their own.
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On December 09 2012 02:24 Fenris420 wrote:Show nested quote +Void Rays will absolutely destroy Vikings now. Vikings can kite them...but Protoss can add a couple Tempests and suddenly all kiting does is let the Protoss get free shots on your Vikings. If Vikings don't kite and Voids get in range, Voids will absolutely melt them. As I pointed out in my OP, the new Voids kill Vikings in 4 seconds. Considering the dps difference between vikings and tempests, I don't know if this kind of situation is a bad thing. Sure, you will take damage but you will also do damage. As long as you manage to keep the void ray count down, tempests are easy to kill on their own.
This is true, but its a tricky positioning game--Terran wants to keep within 7-9 range, where Voids can't hit them but they can hit Voids. Protoss wants to keep Terran either within 6 range where Voids wreck them, or else over 9 range where Tempests can shoot them without Vikings being able to attack. So if a Viking starts kiting Voids, they need to be very careful not to get out of 9 range, which will be tricky to do if Protoss is pulling back their voids, trying to bait Terran into moving too far back. Staying perfectly within that 7-9 range while the enemy is moving around trying to trick you into getting either too close or too far is not the easiest thing to do against a skilled opponent. In a way, its a bit like the early game Zealot/Stalker vs Marine dynamic, where Zealots own marines if they can get in range, but Marines can kite them all day, but since Stalkers outrange Marines they can get lots of free shots while the marines try to kite the Zealots.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 09 2012 02:40 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 02:24 Fenris420 wrote:Void Rays will absolutely destroy Vikings now. Vikings can kite them...but Protoss can add a couple Tempests and suddenly all kiting does is let the Protoss get free shots on your Vikings. If Vikings don't kite and Voids get in range, Voids will absolutely melt them. As I pointed out in my OP, the new Voids kill Vikings in 4 seconds. Considering the dps difference between vikings and tempests, I don't know if this kind of situation is a bad thing. Sure, you will take damage but you will also do damage. As long as you manage to keep the void ray count down, tempests are easy to kill on their own. This is true, but its a tricky positioning game--Terran wants to keep within 7-9 range, where Voids can't hit them but they can hit Voids. Protoss wants to keep Terran either within 6 range where Voids wreck them, or else over 9 range where Tempests can shoot them without Vikings being able to attack. So if a Viking starts kiting Voids, they need to be very careful not to get out of 9 range, which will be tricky to do if Protoss is pulling back their voids, trying to bait Terran into moving too far back. Staying perfectly within that 7-9 range while the enemy is moving around trying to trick you into getting either too close or too far is not the easiest thing to do against a skilled opponent. In a way, its a bit like the Zealot/Stalker vs Marine dynamic, where Zealots own marines if they can get in range, but Marines can kite them all day, but since Stalkers outrange Marines they can get lots of free shots while the marines try to kite the Zealots.
Keep in mind Void Rays can move while attacking, so it's not even 7-9 range they can be in to attack. If they are in 7 range and stop to attack, the Voids will connect for 1-2 seconds. Someone would have to test if Voids will connect if the Vikings stop in 8 range. It's a very narrow line to walk with Vikings vs Void Rays.
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On December 09 2012 02:40 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 02:24 Fenris420 wrote:Void Rays will absolutely destroy Vikings now. Vikings can kite them...but Protoss can add a couple Tempests and suddenly all kiting does is let the Protoss get free shots on your Vikings. If Vikings don't kite and Voids get in range, Voids will absolutely melt them. As I pointed out in my OP, the new Voids kill Vikings in 4 seconds. Considering the dps difference between vikings and tempests, I don't know if this kind of situation is a bad thing. Sure, you will take damage but you will also do damage. As long as you manage to keep the void ray count down, tempests are easy to kill on their own. This is true, but its a tricky positioning game--Terran wants to keep within 7-9 range, where Voids can't hit them but they can hit Voids. Protoss wants to keep Terran either within 6 range where Voids wreck them, or else over 9 range where Tempests can shoot them without Vikings being able to attack. So if a Viking starts kiting Voids, they need to be very careful not to get out of 9 range, which will be tricky to do if Protoss is pulling back their voids, trying to bait Terran into moving too far back. Staying perfectly within that 7-9 range while the enemy is moving around trying to trick you into getting either too close or too far is not the easiest thing to do against a skilled opponent. In a way, its a bit like the early game Zealot/Stalker vs Marine dynamic, where Zealots own marines if they can get in range, but Marines can kite them all day, but since Stalkers outrange Marines they can get lots of free shots while the marines try to kite the Zealots.
Obviously Blizz needs to make sure this is all balanced, but this dynamic sounds totally amazing, really fun to do, and really exciting to watch. I don't understand why people start theorypanicking every time blizzard tries something dynamic.
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On December 09 2012 02:51 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 02:40 awesomoecalypse wrote:On December 09 2012 02:24 Fenris420 wrote:Void Rays will absolutely destroy Vikings now. Vikings can kite them...but Protoss can add a couple Tempests and suddenly all kiting does is let the Protoss get free shots on your Vikings. If Vikings don't kite and Voids get in range, Voids will absolutely melt them. As I pointed out in my OP, the new Voids kill Vikings in 4 seconds. Considering the dps difference between vikings and tempests, I don't know if this kind of situation is a bad thing. Sure, you will take damage but you will also do damage. As long as you manage to keep the void ray count down, tempests are easy to kill on their own. This is true, but its a tricky positioning game--Terran wants to keep within 7-9 range, where Voids can't hit them but they can hit Voids. Protoss wants to keep Terran either within 6 range where Voids wreck them, or else over 9 range where Tempests can shoot them without Vikings being able to attack. So if a Viking starts kiting Voids, they need to be very careful not to get out of 9 range, which will be tricky to do if Protoss is pulling back their voids, trying to bait Terran into moving too far back. Staying perfectly within that 7-9 range while the enemy is moving around trying to trick you into getting either too close or too far is not the easiest thing to do against a skilled opponent. In a way, its a bit like the Zealot/Stalker vs Marine dynamic, where Zealots own marines if they can get in range, but Marines can kite them all day, but since Stalkers outrange Marines they can get lots of free shots while the marines try to kite the Zealots. Keep in mind Void Rays can move while attacking, so it's not even 7-9 range they can be in to attack. If they are in 7 range and stop to attack, the Voids will connect for 1-2 seconds. Someone would have to test if Voids will connect if the Vikings stop in 8 range. It's a very narrow line to walk with Vikings vs Void Rays.
Also, keep in mind that once Voids start attacking, you need to move outside of 8 range to stop the attack. But the main point is that they can do this. If Stalkers can be expected to stop marine pushes because (despite their horrible dps), they have 6 range vs the 5 of marines - Vikings can be expected to stop Voids (6 vs. 9, which is a pretty large difference).
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Voidray is so easy to use now. I already miss charging micro. But if it makes people happy to use them now I don't mind. Not sure how they will solve the issue against Vikings though, probably remove the extended range. But that might make Viking kiting to easy. The one range (or three) is not enough though, because of the bad acceleration a Viking has unless the player using Voidrays gives an a-move command to chase instead of a move command.
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Hello~
I've been playing mech TvP constantly before patch, the composition was hellbat tanks raven vikings and few ghosts. I didn't make any thors because of Tempest and HTs. Back then. Mech still decent to play against Protoss. But after 2.02, I see the problem Anti Air with Mech in TvP has been getting huger than ever before. Especially when Toss decided to play Stargates style: Mass New Voidrays could destroy 3/3 vikings so fast, either do Thors.
- Mech still lack of AA until got decent vikings or thors, since then Toss has decent voidrays which could destroy any Mech AA composition.
- Vikings are doomed due to new voidrays then Terran don't have any good units against Carriers in lategame.
- Thors can't be feedback-ed, but their AA isn't increased much ( 30 damage for 3/3 upgrade without AoE ).
- Either does Raven seeker missile, more damage but no longer AoE effective against Toss deathball. I think the old model of seeker missile is better like in WoL Ravens against broodlord Corrupt
- PDDs don't work on voidrays so vikings have no cover like they had against corrupt or phoenix
- Carriers are strong now, with the ninja buff.
Mech got problem with AA and the new toss in term of Air Deathball now even more stronger. Is there any way to help mech out of this ?
ps: I'm not whining and crying that i lost due to OP Toss deathball, but honestly toss have a strong Air deathball and the weak point of Mech is still AA. IMO this isn't not right direction to help Mech more viable in TvP. And please notice i'm talking about mech, not bio play or bio-mech against TvP. I want to know how to solve this as a Terran, and what need to change as balance.
Regards
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Voids seem like they're going to break PvP. Proxy SG void is going to be ridiculous.
On December 08 2012 07:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Remember stalkers can out run void rays, meaning if you're in big trouble you cooould run your stalkers and then probes around until more stalkers come out.
You're gonna lose a ton if you try to bait the charge and run away. Voids shot while moving and have (I believe) 8 range while chasing. If you go for a pure blink stalker composition, then sure, you can bait the charge and blink away without losing too much. But if you need to have anything other than blink stalkers in your army to bait the charge, that stuff is gonna die.
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@pOriishan, your post make a lot of sense. do you think the new 1s burrow time of widow mines help against air units? How effective it is to just run the mines under the voidrays and burrow?
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In WoL, Terrans had to do viking vs corruptor kiting with infestors on the ground threatening instant doom from 9 range. There was almost no margin for error in that scenario. Now we're worrying about it being too difficult to micro range 9 vikings against slow range 6 void rays? Maybe I'm not being bronze-friendly, but if you can't do that micro, you just need to practice it for 5 minutes.
If Bronzies can't be expected to micro vikings against voids, they also shouldn't have to micro phoenixes to beat mutas. Let's give phoenixes corsair-style splash damage.
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:o interesting, I thought the chances weren't that big, but I didn't know they also buffed the atk speed :D
So which unit to make from the stargate now...
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EPT
