|
The Void Ray received a major redesign in the latest patch. But exactly how much impact will this have? Here's how, with their new cooldown and charge ability, Void Rays now perform vs. various units and structures they commonly engage with:
Void Ray vs Stalker: This is a huge difference. If they use their charge power, Void Rays now kill Stalkers in 5.5 seconds, and only take 42 damage in response. In fact, Voids can easily take on and kill 2 Stalkers at once now. Previously, killing a Stalker took a Void Ray 10.2 seconds, and it would take 98 damage in return—and 2 Stalkers could kill a Void Ray in a direct fight. I repeat: this is huge. New Void Rays kill Stalkers almost twice as quickly. If the Void doesn’t use charge, it will take 8.5 seconds to kill the Stalker and will take 84 damage in return—not as dominant as with charge, but still a step up from the pre-patch Void.
Void Ray vs. Viking: With their new power, Void Rays kill Vikings in about 4 seconds, in which time they’ll take 40 return damage. Voids can actually take on 3 Vikings at once and win now. Compared to before, where they took 7.8 seconds to kill Vikings and would take 60-80 return damage. Void Rays now kill Vikings about twice as quickly. If they don’t use charge, Voids instead take 6.5 seconds to kill Vikings, so still a decent step up from pre-patch.
Void Ray vs Corruptor: Using their charge power, Void Rays can now kill Corruptors in 7.5 seconds, during which the Void Ray will take 42 damage in return fire. In fact, Void Rays can now take on a couple Corruptors at once and win pretty comfortably. Previously unless they were somehow precharged, Void Rays took 12 seconds to kill Corruptors and would take 84 damage over that time—yes, with their new ability and cooldown, Void Rays now kill Corruptors in nearly half the time. If they don’t use charge, it will take them 12.5 seconds to kill Corruptors, which is about the same as pre-patch
Void Ray vs Queen: Void Rays will now kill Queens in 17.5 seconds, during which the Queen will deal about 162 damage to the Void and leave them with just under 90 health. 2 Queens at once, or a Queen using transfuse, can still take on a Void Ray. Previously, Void Ray vs. Queen was something Void Rays would win just barely, so comfortably beating queens is a big bump in effectiveness.
Void Ray vs. Static Defense:
A Void Ray can now kill a Photon Cannon in 10 seconds if it triggers charge before engaging--in that time, the Photon Cannon will knock off about 160 hp from the Void Ray, leaving it with 90 health. Previously, a Void Ray facing a Cannon would take 15 seconds to kill it, and would deal 240 damage to the Void leaving it with just 10 health (and since Cannons outrange Voids and generally strike first, they often simply killed the Void outright)
A Void Ray can now kill a Missile Turret in 8 seconds, and will take 216 damage in return . Previously it would take 12.6 seconds to kill a Turret...except Turret dps is high enough that it would win the fight outright before that ever happened.
A Void Ray will now kill a Spore Crawler in 13.5 seconds, during which it will take 225 damage in return and end up with 35 health remaining. Previously it would have taken a Void 18.9 to kill a Spore...except Spores only needs 14.6 seconds to kill Voids.
In a nutshell, prior to the patch, any static defense was capable of taking a Void Ray in a straight up fight, unless the Void was somehow precharged. Post patch, if you trigger the charge then engage, Void Rays can beat any static defense in a direct fight.
Void Ray vs. Worker: kills probes in 3.5 seconds (down from 4.2 before) and scvs and drones in 4 seconds (down from 4.8 before). A marginal bump, but you’re still better off using the new Oracle if you want to kill workers.
Void Ray vs Marine: Void Rays now take 4 seconds to kill marines, previously they took about 5. In that time, one Marine will deal 24 damage to the Void. This means that a Void can take on 3 marines at once and win pretty comfortable, and can almost win against 4 marines at once—honestly this isn’t a gigantic shift (although when fighting 3 marines the new Void finishes with way more health than the old one).
Void Ray vs. Phoenix: Void Rays now take 15 seconds to kill Phoenixes, and will take about 130 damage in return. Previously, it took them 15.6 seconds. So a very slight bump, but basically negligible.
Against massive units, the Void has actually been slightly nerfed when charged—the new version deals 32 dps, the old one dealt 31 dps vs massive, but the old version had slightly higher damage/longer cooldown, which made it better at punching through armor. The faster cooldown on the new Void Ray means armor makes a bigger impact, and most massive units have decent armor. However, this is only when charged, which could be tricky to get in engagements—the new Void can do its peak dps much more reliably. The net effect is that Voids are probably more or less as effective as they’ve always been against massive…which is to say, ok, but not as good as Tempests.
Edit:
by request,
Void Rays vs. Bunker with 1, 2, 3 or 4 marines. A charged Void Ray takes 13.5 seconds to kill a bunker--marines will each deal 90 damage in that time, so Voids will take a bunker with 1 marine with 160 health left, a bunker with 2 marines with 70 health left, and 3 or 4 marines in a bunker will kill the Void. If an SCV can arrive to repair though, that will significantly swing things in the Terran's favor, reducing the Void Ray's dps by 10 and extending the life if the bunker to 20 seconds, during which each marine will deal 138 damage, meaning even 2 marines in a bunker being repaired will be sufficient to kill the Void. Interesting, in WoL Voids took 19.8 seconds to kill a Bunker that wasn't being prepared. Meaning that effectively, the new Voids are as good vs a bunker being repaired by an SCV as the old Voids were vs an unrepaired bunker. And vs unrepaired bunkers, the new Voids kill them 6.3 seconds faster, a significant jump if you're frantically trying to send more marines or SCVs to help defend an early push before your bunker goes down.
|
I worry about the power of mass void rays vs Terran mech now. I am not completely sure what a meching Terran can do to stop it.
|
On December 08 2012 07:24 Rnevermore wrote:
I worry about the power of mass void rays vs Terran mech now. I am not completely sure what a meching Terran can do to stop it.
the new Thor completely wrecks Void Rays.
|
micro the vikings rnevermore
|
The void ray needed a buff. Frankly, it sucked for its cost. It was generally useless after about the first 10 min in any match-up (with some rare exceptions). Now it might have multiple purposes. It might actually be too good even, but they can always reduce its damage.
At least it might see some play again in standard games.
|
The only thing that worries me about this is PvP. Mass void ray is actually really strong already in WoL, and now it's much stronger.
Of course, microed phoenixes with the range upgrade will destroy void rays without taking any damage. I'm more worried about build order wins.
|
On December 08 2012 07:22 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Void Ray vs Stalker: This is a huge difference. If they use their charge power, Void Rays now kill Stalkers in 5.5 seconds, and only take 42 damage in response. In fact, Voids can easily take on and kill 2 Stalkers at once now. Previously, killing a Stalker took a Void Ray 10.2 seconds, and it would take 98 damage in return—and 2 Stalkers could kill a Void Ray in a direct fight. I repeat: this is huge. New Void Rays kill Stalkers almost twice as quickly. If the Void doesn’t use charge, it will take 8.5 seconds to kill the Stalker and will take 84 damage in return—not as dominant as with charge, but still a step up from the pre-patch Void.
Yay, another air unit that the stalker has a really difficult time fighting. I mean, if you compare Stalker/Void per resources (ignoring that gas is more scarce early because the harvesting rates are about the same) 2 stalkers cost about the same (if you factor in pylon cost) as one Void. I'm betting that in large numbers, this means the only unit in PvP capable of handling large numbers of voids are phoenixes (and... maybe HT/Archon because of splash?).
Stalkers are so bad in straight up fights it's painful.... perhaps blink will have a role to play here?
On December 08 2012 07:22 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Void Ray vs. Viking: With their new power, Void Rays kill Vikings in about 4 seconds, in which time they’ll take 40 return damage. Voids can actually take on 3 Vikings at once and win now. Compared to before, where they took 7.8 seconds to kill Vikings and would take 60-80 return damage. Void Rays now kill Vikings about twice as quickly. If they don’t use charge, Voids instead take 6.5 seconds to kill Vikings, so still a decent step up from pre-patch.
This is slightly moot, because Vikings never have to actually fight Voids a-move-style.
|
Thanks a lot for this data!
Loving the new changes.
@Treehead
Remember stalkers can out run void rays, meaning if you're in big trouble you cooould run your stalkers and then probes around until more stalkers come out.
Actually you could micro against them to help pass the 20 seconds right? Since void ray attacks in fast intervals and stalkers attacks in bigger intervals, you can attack, and run a little. If they keep chasing, then keep attacking (they won't be attacking all the time because you run faster). If they try to just kill a pylon or probe or such, you turn back around and get a quick shot off, and back off again.
@OP I was going to think that, since phoenixes already only barely beat void rays, that this vs phoenix buff might be too much, however small it is. But then I remembered now that phoenixes can kite void rays forever :D
|
Thanks for the information! Some rather interesting changes, will love to try this out myself and feel the difference and adapt to it.
|
Out of all the things you pointed out I am only concerned in PvP vs Stalkers. Everything else is either still cost efficient vs VRs or can be mitigated with micro.
In PvP however Stalkers will be the only mobile form of defense unless you went stargate yourself, and Photon Cannons are the least cost effective defensive structure of the 3 races. If Stalkers are not cost effective vs VRs by at least a sizable margin (2 stalkers is only 50 less gas than a VR) then stargate openers will be the de facto opening in that matchup. As I mentioned in another thread I believe with all the buffs air units (plus some new air units) are getting in HotS (Medivacs, VRs, Phoenix, Mutas, etc.) Stalkers need to have a stronger AtG attack.
On December 08 2012 07:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Thanks a lot for this data!
Loving the new changes.
@Treehead
Remember stalkers can out run void rays, meaning if you're in big trouble you cooould run your stalkers and then probes around until more stalkers come out.
Actually you could micro against them to help pass the 20 seconds right? Since void ray attacks in fast intervals and stalkers attacks in bigger intervals, you can attack, and run a little. If they keep chasing, then keep attacking (they won't be attacking all the time because you run faster). If they try to just kill a pylon or probe or such, you turn back around and get a quick shot off, and back off again.
@OP I was going to think that, since phoenixes already only barely beat void rays, that this vs phoenix buff might be too much, however small it is. But then I remembered now that phoenixes can kite void rays forever :D
While yes Stalkers can outrun VRs you have to remember the VR beam also "locks-on" the target for quite a bit outside VRs range of 6. If 1 VR kills a Stalker when charged in 5.5s then if they hit you with 3 charged VRs early running away won't be an option as it will just die before it can run out of range.
|
On December 08 2012 07:37 Empirimancer wrote:
The only thing that worries me about this is PvP. Mass void ray is actually really strong already in WoL, and now it's much stronger.
Of course, microed phoenixes with the range upgrade will destroy void rays without taking any damage. I'm more worried about build order wins.
Whaaa? Mass VR loses to anyone in low Masters or above.
It's likely a non-stargate vs stargate PvP match will have stalkers using blink to retreat from fights where the VR has used the charge ability, and then blinking to catch up and shoot down running VRs.
|
On December 08 2012 07:37 Empirimancer wrote:
The only thing that worries me about this is PvP. Mass void ray is actually really strong already in WoL, and now it's much stronger.
Of course, microed phoenixes with the range upgrade will destroy void rays without taking any damage. I'm more worried about build order wins.
I think mass void rays arent that strong in WoL. The only time you can afford mass void rays is end game and by that time infestors + corruptor should demolish the void rays
|
mass void rays? i mean really thats like mass battlecruisers, good luck getting there.
|
On December 08 2012 07:26 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 07:24 Rnevermore wrote:
I worry about the power of mass void rays vs Terran mech now. I am not completely sure what a meching Terran can do to stop it. the new Thor completely wrecks Void Rays.
Proof?
|
On December 08 2012 08:00 Skyro wrote:Out of all the things you pointed out I am only concerned in PvP vs Stalkers. Everything else is either still cost efficient vs VRs or can be mitigated with micro. In PvP however Stalkers will be the only mobile form of defense unless you went stargate yourself, and Photon Cannons are the least cost effective defensive structure of the 3 races. If Stalkers are not cost effective vs VRs by at least a sizable margin (2 stalkers is only 50 less gas than a VR) then stargate openers will be the de facto opening in that matchup. As I mentioned in another thread I believe with all the buffs air units (plus some new air units) are getting in HotS (Medivacs, VRs, Phoenix, Mutas, etc.) Stalkers need to have a stronger AtG attack. Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 07:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Thanks a lot for this data!
Loving the new changes.
@Treehead
Remember stalkers can out run void rays, meaning if you're in big trouble you cooould run your stalkers and then probes around until more stalkers come out.
Actually you could micro against them to help pass the 20 seconds right? Since void ray attacks in fast intervals and stalkers attacks in bigger intervals, you can attack, and run a little. If they keep chasing, then keep attacking (they won't be attacking all the time because you run faster). If they try to just kill a pylon or probe or such, you turn back around and get a quick shot off, and back off again.
@OP I was going to think that, since phoenixes already only barely beat void rays, that this vs phoenix buff might be too much, however small it is. But then I remembered now that phoenixes can kite void rays forever :D While yes Stalkers can outrun VRs you have to remember the VR beam also "locks-on" the target for quite a bit outside VRs range of 6. If 1 VR kills a Stalker when charged in 5.5s then if they hit you with 3 charged VRs early running away won't be an option as it will just die before it can run out of range.
I'm ok with all of that because I think watching stargate units is more exciting than gateway units. There really is a lot more room for battles around the map with this, and the dynamic between the five stargate units should bring some needed flavor to this matchup. I always found Stalkers to be one of the more boring units of the game.
|
On December 08 2012 08:09 unteqair wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 08:00 Skyro wrote:Out of all the things you pointed out I am only concerned in PvP vs Stalkers. Everything else is either still cost efficient vs VRs or can be mitigated with micro. In PvP however Stalkers will be the only mobile form of defense unless you went stargate yourself, and Photon Cannons are the least cost effective defensive structure of the 3 races. If Stalkers are not cost effective vs VRs by at least a sizable margin (2 stalkers is only 50 less gas than a VR) then stargate openers will be the de facto opening in that matchup. As I mentioned in another thread I believe with all the buffs air units (plus some new air units) are getting in HotS (Medivacs, VRs, Phoenix, Mutas, etc.) Stalkers need to have a stronger AtG attack. On December 08 2012 07:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Thanks a lot for this data!
Loving the new changes.
@Treehead
Remember stalkers can out run void rays, meaning if you're in big trouble you cooould run your stalkers and then probes around until more stalkers come out.
Actually you could micro against them to help pass the 20 seconds right? Since void ray attacks in fast intervals and stalkers attacks in bigger intervals, you can attack, and run a little. If they keep chasing, then keep attacking (they won't be attacking all the time because you run faster). If they try to just kill a pylon or probe or such, you turn back around and get a quick shot off, and back off again.
@OP I was going to think that, since phoenixes already only barely beat void rays, that this vs phoenix buff might be too much, however small it is. But then I remembered now that phoenixes can kite void rays forever :D While yes Stalkers can outrun VRs you have to remember the VR beam also "locks-on" the target for quite a bit outside VRs range of 6. If 1 VR kills a Stalker when charged in 5.5s then if they hit you with 3 charged VRs early running away won't be an option as it will just die before it can run out of range. I'm ok with all of that because I think watching stargate units is more exciting than gateway units. There really is a lot more room for battles around the map with this, and the dynamic between the five stargate units should bring some needed flavor to this matchup. I always found Stalkers to be one of the more boring units of the game.
Really? I always thought that Stalkers were one of the better-than-the-BW-counterpart units of the game. Even the bad upgrade scaling fits them well. I think it's the gateway units / mechanics designed around them which might made them boring but hopefully that will change with HotS. (I for one always like units with multiple attack directions more than specialised hard counters which can only shoot vs air, or vs ground, or whatever. Multifunctional units were what made BW so good for me.)
|
On December 08 2012 08:09 unteqair wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 08:00 Skyro wrote:Out of all the things you pointed out I am only concerned in PvP vs Stalkers. Everything else is either still cost efficient vs VRs or can be mitigated with micro. In PvP however Stalkers will be the only mobile form of defense unless you went stargate yourself, and Photon Cannons are the least cost effective defensive structure of the 3 races. If Stalkers are not cost effective vs VRs by at least a sizable margin (2 stalkers is only 50 less gas than a VR) then stargate openers will be the de facto opening in that matchup. As I mentioned in another thread I believe with all the buffs air units (plus some new air units) are getting in HotS (Medivacs, VRs, Phoenix, Mutas, etc.) Stalkers need to have a stronger AtG attack. On December 08 2012 07:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Thanks a lot for this data!
Loving the new changes.
@Treehead
Remember stalkers can out run void rays, meaning if you're in big trouble you cooould run your stalkers and then probes around until more stalkers come out.
Actually you could micro against them to help pass the 20 seconds right? Since void ray attacks in fast intervals and stalkers attacks in bigger intervals, you can attack, and run a little. If they keep chasing, then keep attacking (they won't be attacking all the time because you run faster). If they try to just kill a pylon or probe or such, you turn back around and get a quick shot off, and back off again.
@OP I was going to think that, since phoenixes already only barely beat void rays, that this vs phoenix buff might be too much, however small it is. But then I remembered now that phoenixes can kite void rays forever :D While yes Stalkers can outrun VRs you have to remember the VR beam also "locks-on" the target for quite a bit outside VRs range of 6. If 1 VR kills a Stalker when charged in 5.5s then if they hit you with 3 charged VRs early running away won't be an option as it will just die before it can run out of range. I'm ok with all of that because I think watching stargate units is more exciting than gateway units. There really is a lot more room for battles around the map with this, and the dynamic between the five stargate units should bring some needed flavor to this matchup. I always found Stalkers to be one of the more boring units of the game.
First of all regardless how "exciting" you think it may be, having 1 dominant strategy that is going to be used the vast majority of the time will eventually make it boring. The much hated 4-gate, while much hated by the community at large, was actually quite an exciting micro battle involving tight timings and slim margins of victory.
Second of all I do not think you understand the dynamics of PvP air play. It basically boils down to who can make more Phoenixes faster and then just go and win one engagement and proceed to win the game. There is a huge "avalanche" effect with Phoenix vs Phoenix air battles. The only viable solution to this and the potential VR issue is, as I stated above, buffing Stalkers AtG attack so that they can actually function to counter VRs and Phoenixes cost effectively.
|
Belgium126 Posts
I suppose you mean ground to air attack (GtA), and not AtG..
|
On December 08 2012 08:39 Grendel wrote:
I suppose you mean ground to air attack (GtA), and not AtG..
Oops lol yeah obviously that's what I meant 
Actually flying Stalkers would be kinda cool LMAO
|
On December 08 2012 08:29 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 08:09 unteqair wrote:On December 08 2012 08:00 Skyro wrote:Out of all the things you pointed out I am only concerned in PvP vs Stalkers. Everything else is either still cost efficient vs VRs or can be mitigated with micro. In PvP however Stalkers will be the only mobile form of defense unless you went stargate yourself, and Photon Cannons are the least cost effective defensive structure of the 3 races. If Stalkers are not cost effective vs VRs by at least a sizable margin (2 stalkers is only 50 less gas than a VR) then stargate openers will be the de facto opening in that matchup. As I mentioned in another thread I believe with all the buffs air units (plus some new air units) are getting in HotS (Medivacs, VRs, Phoenix, Mutas, etc.) Stalkers need to have a stronger AtG attack. On December 08 2012 07:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Thanks a lot for this data!
Loving the new changes.
@Treehead
Remember stalkers can out run void rays, meaning if you're in big trouble you cooould run your stalkers and then probes around until more stalkers come out.
Actually you could micro against them to help pass the 20 seconds right? Since void ray attacks in fast intervals and stalkers attacks in bigger intervals, you can attack, and run a little. If they keep chasing, then keep attacking (they won't be attacking all the time because you run faster). If they try to just kill a pylon or probe or such, you turn back around and get a quick shot off, and back off again.
@OP I was going to think that, since phoenixes already only barely beat void rays, that this vs phoenix buff might be too much, however small it is. But then I remembered now that phoenixes can kite void rays forever :D While yes Stalkers can outrun VRs you have to remember the VR beam also "locks-on" the target for quite a bit outside VRs range of 6. If 1 VR kills a Stalker when charged in 5.5s then if they hit you with 3 charged VRs early running away won't be an option as it will just die before it can run out of range. I'm ok with all of that because I think watching stargate units is more exciting than gateway units. There really is a lot more room for battles around the map with this, and the dynamic between the five stargate units should bring some needed flavor to this matchup. I always found Stalkers to be one of the more boring units of the game. First of all regardless how "exciting" you think it may be, having 1 dominant strategy that is going to be used the vast majority of the time will eventually make it boring. The much hated 4-gate, while much hated by the community at large, was actually quite an exciting micro battle involving tight timings and slim margins of victory. Second of all I do not think you understand the dynamics of PvP air play. It basically boils down to who can make more Phoenixes faster and then just go and win one engagement and proceed to win the game. There is a huge "avalanche" effect with Phoenix vs Phoenix air battles. The only viable solution to this and the potential VR issue is, as I stated above, buffing Stalkers AtG attack so that they can actually function to counter VRs and Phoenixes cost effectively.
If this is what you think, then I don't think you understand the matchup, nor the utility that Stalkers still have. 4-gate is not "exciting."
And what is the point of putting "exciting" in quotations?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
