EPTNew Mothership Discussion - Page 2
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
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kvmetternich
Italy35 Posts
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virpi
Germany3599 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
I'm still disappointed about the recall change. It was a genuinely interesting spell that opened up a lot of options versus slow steamroll compositions. It would have come into its own this patch since it wouldn't have had to compete with the all-important vortex anymore. | ||
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Zanno
United States1484 Posts
it forces the opponent to bring detection to the battlefield amounting to way more in resources than what you spend on the mothership itself | ||
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sevia
United States954 Posts
On December 07 2012 10:05 Zanno wrote: i think it will remain useful as your very last bit of supply just for the cloaking field it forces the opponent to bring detection to the battlefield amounting to way more in resources than what you spend on the mothership itself I don't know about that. I mean, mothership is 400/400 + Fleet Beacon, or the cost of 8 overseers or observers. By the time you can focus fire that many detectors, your opponent could just target down your mothership. I think most people will just stick with the core. | ||
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Geefking
Australia41 Posts
at least make it fun for newbies like me to use while being supply inefficient enough that pros will rarely use it | ||
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Wafflelisk
Canada1061 Posts
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HardlyNever
United States1258 Posts
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Doc Daneeka
United States577 Posts
MSC is fine. actually the only hope the MS has is that the MSC is so solidly useful and so the MS is bound to pop up from time to time just for the hell of it, particularly when there's already a fleet beacon out for tempests. if nothing else, it's added hp and dps for the core plus the cloak. | ||
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Crawdad
614 Posts
On December 07 2012 10:36 Doc Daneeka wrote: MSC is fine. actually the only hope the MS has is that the MSC is so solidly useful and so the MS is bound to pop up from time to time just for the hell of it, particularly when there's already a fleet beacon out for tempests. if nothing else, it's added hp and dps for the core plus the cloak. That's what I was thinking, but don't forget the quadruple supply cost and the decreased speed. | ||
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TheRealPaciFist
United States1049 Posts
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
They should give them really fun troll powers. Like: A self-destruct ability. 10 seconds countdown, and the Mothership explodes like a humongous flying baneling. For 100 energy, render a non-massive enemy unit permanently unable to do anything but dance. Like current Vortex, but way funnier. A melee attack, possibly with a built in charge. The mothership rockets forward and slams into a flying enemy unit like a giant pinball. C'mon Blizzard. Have fun with this. There are way better possibilities in a joke manner unit than the current lame vortex. | ||
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
Hello B.net beta forums, after seeing the new patch I found it funny they made the vortex to be useless, I guess that the "kill one non-massive unit" is a placeholder for another spell, but still I want to purpose a way for the Mothership to be a thing that can not be used in competitive games but still fulfill the role of the "one awesome mega unit". The solution is quite simple actually, instead of 8 supply, make it 20 supply. "WHAT?!?!" - you might ask, but yes that is needed in order for it to be a TRUE Mothership and not a useless BMothership. Of course 20 supply is a random number, it could be anything from 10 to 50 supply, but I think 20 is very good number. Now, after we have the 20 supply thing we can do anything we want, since if we give it a large build time as well there is no way it will be useful in professional matches, since you can't just bind 20 supply for 3-4 minutes and expect not to lose, the only way you can do it is if the opponent is turtling hard and is way behind and thus making the Mothership is a sign for him to leave. Example abillites the Mothership can have: (Of course there can be cooler ones, as I said they can do anything they want once the Mothership is too expensive to get in the top level) -Keep the recall(MS recall, not MSC recall), I think it fits the nature of the Mothership, I think maybe you can lower the cost to 50 energy, dunno. -Old vortex is cool but the new lame vortex gave me an idea - a super ability of the Mothership, MASS lame VORTEX, what does it do? you activate the ability and then randomly all around the Mothership many small Vortexes spawn and kill non-massive units, massive units will take something like 300 damage or so, maybe with a cool animation of how they manage to get out of the vortex. -Keep the cloak but give the Mothership permanent detection as well, after all it is a Mothership, it is sure to have an observer on it! -Maybe give it another ability, planet cracker would be cool, not so sure though. Other than that I think the mothership should also cost a lot more and be double in size, also change the weapon it uses from the current tickle beams to something that actually kills 3 marines before they kill it. Tell me what do you think about this idea, don't descourge it just cause it sounds silly and not SC2-like, Blizzard said they wanted a hero type unit for people who like that style, but one that cannot be used in professional games. TL ; DR Make the Mothership have a much higher supply cost instead of its current 8, that will make it so you can buff it without fear of it being used competitively. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
Unlike the weak MSC, you can more easily recall units offensively. Also you lose detection but gain cloak. So compared to the MSC it's more of an offensive version which is nice I guess. About vortex, i wonder if it's a placeholder. I don't think it's a "troll". Still though, instantly killing 2 units can definitely help -- it's a support unit after all. For its high price, being able to kill two units is pretty useful; infestors, vipers, ravens, etc. It'll definitely help the MS pay its cost off. I would have liked the vortex to be something better though... something not pivotal, and not something that does really well if the opponent fucks up, but maybe something like a 1.5 radius vortex, where units don't die but units get sucked up. This would mean that even without perfect stacking, 2 vortexes will only get 1/4 or less of the opponent's army. It wouldn't look as tiny as it does now (it looks so stupid haha). Perhaps they should have just made it so that vortex spreads all the units back out, instead of clumping them up. I think the spell is nice, as is stasis field (however annoying it is), and this change would keep its function similar to stasis field while not being the same spell neither. | ||
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Doc Daneeka
United States577 Posts
On December 07 2012 10:42 Crawdad wrote: That's what I was thinking, but don't forget the quadruple supply cost and the decreased speed. yeah, which is why i think it needs new spells, or (another) redesign of vortex, and tweaking of the unit in general. my vision of the mothership is of a very specific kind of endgame where if the protoss has the infrastructure up but is falling behind, running out of options, and needs to make a stand, they can invest the money and food supply in this mobile base/defensive position. so in a way going this route would still be all or nothing in the sense that the mothership was invested in instead of something else, and at this late stage of the game a proper transition to another strategy would be almost impossible. but the mothership itself doesn't have to have an all or nothing role in combat like it has been with vortex and the archon toilet. i'd like it to be something that stays back with the army concaved around it, protecting it, so that it can survive to provide support as long as possible and tip fights in favor of the protoss, not shove them like with WoL vortex. support could be picking units off with an energy-cheap version of the vortex redesign we just got in this patch, maybe a shield battery ability, probably a variety of things i can't think of right now. i think this could be accomplished with a noticeable boost in HP, though maybe not a boost in shields, so it can take a beating but the damage will mostly be permanent, plus a boost to single target damage. the opponent should have to invest in bringing it down, but not be totally boned if they choose to just engage the army and leave the MS for last. but most importantly it should be a viable option while not being a requirement, something that requires a different playstyle. you could could say i think of it as "embracing the deathball", accepting that it's always going to be a presence in SC2 especially for protoss, and engineering ways to make deathball play more skillfull and interesting, and i think the MS proper has potential to cap off that style. there's probably all kinds of holes with what i just suggested, but if nothing else i think we (and blizzard) should be more ambitious about what we want from this game. do we want to maybe just maybe be almost as good as BW, or in 10 years do we want to be able to say that our game is now doing things that were unimaginable in BW? that in a nutshell is why i think 'phasing out' units is a bad idea and they should instead be considered to be on the backburner for the time being. | ||
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Goldfish
2230 Posts
Vortex has been countered and it hasn't been "all of a sudden game changing spell" for the past year or so. The only exception (at least one I watched) is MVP vs Squirtle and that wasn't a "aww, Vortex is IMBA", it was a "OMG WTF SQUIRTLE MADE A HUGE COME BACK!" moment. I remember the Grubby vs Vortix games (I think) in IEM and Mothership used there was great. It promoted active play (not passive) and the game was full of drops (the Mothership was the base defense before becoming the finisher). The change to recall means you can't keep the Mothership at base (or you can't sneak a Mothership somewhere) for a mass recall. Edit - You can still do offensive attacks (in fact, the new recall is better since the Mothership will help support with cloak) but on the downside, the old recall allowed you to use the mothership as pure base defense (which I liked to do at times). Of course it's not cool leaving a giant mothership not battling and on guard duty. So recall is sort of a neutral thing (I guess an alternative or compromise would be give the Mothership two versions of the Recall that the player can select/use). Overall... I think the Vortex impacting the game too much was overstated because I have not seen many games where Vortex was a decider. As Dustin Browder said (before he changed his mind), it's not different than a group of HTs being EMPed, or a "money fungal" and (there are way more game changing fungals than game changing vortex, of course Infestor is more popular but the point is that the game revolves around spells already). (Bolded and underlined because really, the old Vortex isn't much different than fungal, emp, storm, etc. Again, I rarely saw too many game changing clutch vortexes in the past year. The only exception is MVP vs Squirtle but that was an epic comeback vortex.) tl;dr - Change Vortex to back to what it was before (it's no different as a "game changer" than EMP on a clump of HTs you need to survive, fungals on a deathball you need, etc. Plus Zerg know how to defend and spread out against Vortex). I mean, they could nerf Vortex cast range instead of changing it to more of a BM spell. It's silly to have BM units anyway. I'd like to see variety in a game, not "use <x> and <y> unit every game, if you build <z> unit that's only for BMing". I miss the old Mothership  .I mean, I thought they were going to work on making all units viable (for variety). Finally, I dislike the Void Ray change. I think the old Void Ray had more micro potential ("cloning", a concept that is almost gone from BW. Basically single click each Void Ray, have it focus on one unit so it can charge up, etc). I liked the idea of giving Void Ray a gradually increasing life steal effect while it focuses on a single target (rather than just replacing it with an active ability that doesn't really promote micro or cloning). , but if nothing else i think we (and blizzard) should be more ambitious about what we want from this game. do we want to maybe just maybe be almost as good as BW, or in 10 years do we want to be able to say that our game is now doing things that were unimaginable in BW? that in a nutshell is why i think 'phasing out' units is a bad idea and they should instead be considered to be on the backburner for the time being. I am honestly not sure if the "BW way" will still work. BW thrived as a "mainstream" (not a niche, like CS 1.6, or WC3) eSport because of a number of factors (booming PC bang market in SK, lack of competition in terms of games or entertainment for youth at the time, etc). More people are into the Dota way (continuously add new stuff that makes the game more interesting and still refreshing to play) than playing a game that stays the same (people do that but it's a really niche market). One important thing to note is that there is a ton of competition nowadays (in terms of video games). If SC2 doesn't change, it becomes more of a niche market (yes, people still play CS 1.6, <insert game that hasn't received updates in a while, etc> but those games aren't main stream). People will likely be game hoppers (hop from game to game) rather than stick with one game if it stays the same (after LotV gets released that is). People are still into SC2 because it is still new and fresh (sort of, I mean there are still 2 major expansions coming, and the next one is coming in around 4 months). SC2 has the potential to be more of a mainstream game if Blizzard is ambitious. Though honestly I have no idea what they can do (maybe they shouldn't change SC2 much after LotV, maybe it thrives for a good 5 years, WC4 gets released, it thrives for maybe 5-10 years, then SC3's turn rinse and repeat). Of course I'm being a bit bias here because I always dislike it when they phase out or remove old units and stuff >.> (that's why I brought Dota because Icefrog does the opposite.... heck even Techies got buffed in the last patch and there are a decent amount of people that dislike how he changes games he are in). Edit - Yeah, the new Mothership is still useful but again, I think the vortex nerf is a bit overdone. Vortex is overstated as a game changer spell when nearly every other AoE spell (EMP on a clump of HT that you "need", Fungals, etc) are similar (DB himself said that in defense of the Mothership a while back). | ||
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FroZeN.Broken
Sweden47 Posts
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Jenia6109
Russian Federation1613 Posts
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