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Overall seems like a really fun patch in the right direction this time. :D
I just regret that:
1.- the energize ability has not be reinstalled
2.- the carrier mechanics have not been improved
On a side note, the upgrade change for terran seems like vikings will become a little too strong a counter to colossus/broodlords. But hey, what do I know.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On December 06 2012 20:40 syroz wrote:
4GB patch oh shit! This is madness :D
Only because WOL is inside HOTS client now and Arcade here too
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On December 06 2012 20:37 Sigmur wrote:
Yay dt shrine is cheaper - who cares when gateway units will suck even more with all these buffs to other races' units.
This.
Gateway units will be even more retarded against stronger enemy units.
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On December 06 2012 20:49 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 20:37 Sigmur wrote:
This patch is bullshit.
Vortex not able to kill massive units, whereas neural parasite can take control over massive.
Faster healing and extreme speed buff for medivacs wtf.
Mutalisk are too slow - lol - and get a speed buff.
Yay dt shrine is cheaper - who cares when gateway units will suck even more with all these buffs to other races' units. Well first of all you should notice that every race has been buffed significantly. Medivacs have been buffed, but Protoss and Zerg has also been giving the means to deal with stronger bio forces. Same goes for improve Mutalisks. Also it is true that Gateways units may not do quite as well against bio units for instance, but Stargate on the other hand is now much more viable. Secondly it is very intentional to nerf Vortex into obscurity, since it was very badly designed for competitive play. It was always ment for casuals.
You think stargate compensate for lack of ANY buffs to gateway units? Afterall stargate units are very expensive and you just can't mass them like you can mass bio. Even if you could, marines would just own them.
Good that atleast they try to buff terran, so maybe HotS won't be as forgivable to zerg as it is in WoL.
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On December 06 2012 20:08 idkfa wrote:You're monologuing! Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 20:01 Rabiator wrote:On December 06 2012 08:23 Cracy wrote:
Thor
250mm Strike Cannons has been removed.
The Thor can now switch between two modes: High-Impact Payload and Explosive Payload. The mode shift takes 4 seconds.
When in High-Impact Payload mode, the Thor switches to a different anti-air gun (250mm Punisher Cannons) that has 10 range and deals 24 flat damage.
Thor radius, inner radius, and separation radius increased from 0.8215 to 1. Goliath Cost: 100 minerals/50 gas; 40 seconds; 2 supply Defense: 1 armor; 125 hit points; Offense: attack ground/air 12(+1) / 20(+4)explosive; 22 "cooldown"; range ground/air 5/8; Cargo size: 2 Speed: DECENT Thor WoL Cost: 300 minerals/200 gas; 60 seconds, 6 supply Defense: 1 armor; 400 hit points; Offense: attack ground/air 30(+3)*2 / (6(+1)+6 vs light(+1))*4 splash; 1,28/3,00 "cooldown" for ground/air; range ground/air Cargo size: 8 Speed: AWFUL Thor HotS "High impact" Offense: attack air 24 The "high impact mode" damage for the Thor is just the same as its regular damage ... except you only have to pass ONE set of armor oh and you DONT get the bonus damage against light. 6*4 = 24 ... Really? REALLY?????? And I thought you were trying to make mech viable. Give the Thor proper damage against single targets instead of this junk OR (preferably) give Terrans the Goliath instead and remove the Thor. You are trying to turn your stupid and clunky big unit into the Goliath anyways or why was its size reduced? You can toggle between the splash anti-light missiles and the nonsplash gauss slug based on need or whim as you decide. Why is that useful? WoL Thor vs Corruptor: 4 missiles, 6 damage each, Corruptor has 2 armor, so missile salvos end up doing 16 damage. HotS Thor "High Impact" does 22 damage to the same Corruptor. Really. REALLY!!!!!!!!!
That REALLY is a significant increase in their damage ... NOT (which was the whole point of the post).
On December 06 2012 20:09 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 20:01 Rabiator wrote:While looking at the patch notes I got a bit angry about the seemingly bad change to the Thor. A high single target damage in itself is a good thing, BUT it is only FOUR DAMAGE higher than its BW counterpart had as damage. I started digging into the stats a bit and found that it was worse than I thought when I began ... On December 06 2012 08:23 Cracy wrote:
Thor
250mm Strike Cannons has been removed.
The Thor can now switch between two modes: High-Impact Payload and Explosive Payload. The mode shift takes 4 seconds.
When in High-Impact Payload mode, the Thor switches to a different anti-air gun (250mm Punisher Cannons) that has 10 range and deals 24 flat damage.
Thor radius, inner radius, and separation radius increased from 0.8215 to 1. Goliath Cost: 100 minerals/50 gas; 40 seconds; 2 supply Defense: 1 armor; 125 hit points; Offense: attack ground/air 12(+1) / 20(+4)explosive; 22 "cooldown"; range ground/air 5/8; Cargo size: 2 Speed: DECENT Thor WoL Cost: 300 minerals/200 gas; 60 seconds, 6 supply Defense: 1 armor; 400 hit points; Offense: attack ground/air 30(+3)*2 / (6(+1)+6 vs light(+1))*4 splash; 1,28/3,00 "cooldown" for ground/air; range ground/air Cargo size: 8 Speed: AWFUL Thor HotS "High impact" Offense: attack air 24 The "high impact mode" damage for the Thor is just the same as its regular damage ... except you only have to pass ONE set of armor oh and you DONT get the bonus damage against light. 6*4 = 24 ... Really? REALLY?????? And I thought you were trying to make mech viable. Give the Thor proper damage against single targets instead of this junk OR (preferably) give Terrans the Goliath instead and remove the Thor. You are trying to turn your stupid and clunky big unit into the Goliath anyways or why was its size reduced? Conclusion #1: Blizzard seems to be "seeing the light" in that mech needs the Goliath, but they are too cowardly to just remove the Thor and add the BW unit. They also cant do the math properly and present us with a damage nerf against light air in this new and shiny single target mode ... The depressing part is that there will be too many people out there who wont see that they are basically getting the same - too weak for a 6 supply unit - deal in a different package and will cheer for "new stuff". ---- Now lets bring the "air opposition" for comparison: GuardianCost: 150 minerals/200 gas; 40 seconds; 2 supply Defense: 2 armor/150 hit points Offense: 20(+2) damage; 30 "cooldown"; range 8 Speed: SLOW BroodlordCost: 300 minerals/250 gas; 74 seconds; 4 supply Defense: 1 armor; 225 hit points Offense: 20(+2) damage; 2,5 "cooldown"; range 9,5 Speed: SLOW The Guardian has more armor but a lot less hit points and costs twice the supply compared to the Broodlord, however ... the Broodlord has a lower cooldown compared with the Thor and the Guardian had a significantly higher cooldown than the Goliath. In addition the Broodlings spawned by the Broodlord prevent it from moving and this is a decided advantage AND they deal additional damage as well during their short lifespan. Conclusion #2If we assume the relationship between the Goliath and its Zerg counterpart to be balanced in BW the stats are totally in Zergs favour in SC2 with a lower cooldown AND free units for the Broodlord while the Thor and this new proposed change does not improve the situation one bit. Just 0,5 range advantage of the Thor is supposed to make up for free units which block the way and limit maneuverability ... who really believes that? IF the change was "four attacks of 24 damage against a single target" - like they have for the splash attack - it would have been too much but closer to the target than the 24 damage. That isnt the case. It is ONE attack of 24 damage. Personally I would say it should be "four single target attacks against separate targets OR - if there is only one target/the Thor gets told which target to focus down - against one target". An appropriate damage would be something like 12-16 for each of these attacks. Oh and this should replace the current abuseable AoE damage. I think the new Thor AA cannons should be tested some more in the beta in live games and unit testers before definitively drawing any conclusions. From the one test that I managed to do before the servers went down, a Thor will beat a Broodlord with the AA cannons whereas the Broodlord will beat the Thor when its using the AA missiles. Also, the cooldown for the AA cannons is 2 seconds as opposed to the 3 second cooldown of the AA missiles, which adds a bit more single-target DPS.
That is good to know but not listed in the patch notes ... There is still the issue of "Broodlords can get into range of a Thor freely, but the Broodlings prevent Thors from an equal freedom of maneuverability" ... which their own clunkiness really doesnt help with.
What is the point of patch notes if we have to figure out half of it ourselves?
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On December 06 2012 21:09 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 20:08 idkfa wrote:On December 06 2012 17:40 Crawdad wrote:
When every race is OP...
No race is. You're monologuing! On December 06 2012 20:01 Rabiator wrote:On December 06 2012 08:23 Cracy wrote:
Thor
250mm Strike Cannons has been removed.
The Thor can now switch between two modes: High-Impact Payload and Explosive Payload. The mode shift takes 4 seconds.
When in High-Impact Payload mode, the Thor switches to a different anti-air gun (250mm Punisher Cannons) that has 10 range and deals 24 flat damage.
Thor radius, inner radius, and separation radius increased from 0.8215 to 1. Goliath Cost: 100 minerals/50 gas; 40 seconds; 2 supply Defense: 1 armor; 125 hit points; Offense: attack ground/air 12(+1) / 20(+4)explosive; 22 "cooldown"; range ground/air 5/8; Cargo size: 2 Speed: DECENT Thor WoL Cost: 300 minerals/200 gas; 60 seconds, 6 supply Defense: 1 armor; 400 hit points; Offense: attack ground/air 30(+3)*2 / (6(+1)+6 vs light(+1))*4 splash; 1,28/3,00 "cooldown" for ground/air; range ground/air Cargo size: 8 Speed: AWFUL Thor HotS "High impact" Offense: attack air 24 The "high impact mode" damage for the Thor is just the same as its regular damage ... except you only have to pass ONE set of armor oh and you DONT get the bonus damage against light. 6*4 = 24 ... Really? REALLY?????? And I thought you were trying to make mech viable. Give the Thor proper damage against single targets instead of this junk OR (preferably) give Terrans the Goliath instead and remove the Thor. You are trying to turn your stupid and clunky big unit into the Goliath anyways or why was its size reduced? You can toggle between the splash anti-light missiles and the nonsplash gauss slug based on need or whim as you decide. Why is that useful? WoL Thor vs Corruptor: 4 missiles, 6 damage each, Corruptor has 2 armor, so missile salvos end up doing 16 damage. HotS Thor "High Impact" does 22 damage to the same Corruptor. Really. REALLY!!!!!!!!! That REALLY is a significant increase in their damage ... NOT (which was the whole point of the post). Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 20:09 eviltomahawk wrote:On December 06 2012 20:01 Rabiator wrote:While looking at the patch notes I got a bit angry about the seemingly bad change to the Thor. A high single target damage in itself is a good thing, BUT it is only FOUR DAMAGE higher than its BW counterpart had as damage. I started digging into the stats a bit and found that it was worse than I thought when I began ... On December 06 2012 08:23 Cracy wrote:
Thor
250mm Strike Cannons has been removed.
The Thor can now switch between two modes: High-Impact Payload and Explosive Payload. The mode shift takes 4 seconds.
When in High-Impact Payload mode, the Thor switches to a different anti-air gun (250mm Punisher Cannons) that has 10 range and deals 24 flat damage.
Thor radius, inner radius, and separation radius increased from 0.8215 to 1. Goliath Cost: 100 minerals/50 gas; 40 seconds; 2 supply Defense: 1 armor; 125 hit points; Offense: attack ground/air 12(+1) / 20(+4)explosive; 22 "cooldown"; range ground/air 5/8; Cargo size: 2 Speed: DECENT Thor WoL Cost: 300 minerals/200 gas; 60 seconds, 6 supply Defense: 1 armor; 400 hit points; Offense: attack ground/air 30(+3)*2 / (6(+1)+6 vs light(+1))*4 splash; 1,28/3,00 "cooldown" for ground/air; range ground/air Cargo size: 8 Speed: AWFUL Thor HotS "High impact" Offense: attack air 24 The "high impact mode" damage for the Thor is just the same as its regular damage ... except you only have to pass ONE set of armor oh and you DONT get the bonus damage against light. 6*4 = 24 ... Really? REALLY?????? And I thought you were trying to make mech viable. Give the Thor proper damage against single targets instead of this junk OR (preferably) give Terrans the Goliath instead and remove the Thor. You are trying to turn your stupid and clunky big unit into the Goliath anyways or why was its size reduced? Conclusion #1: Blizzard seems to be "seeing the light" in that mech needs the Goliath, but they are too cowardly to just remove the Thor and add the BW unit. They also cant do the math properly and present us with a damage nerf against light air in this new and shiny single target mode ... The depressing part is that there will be too many people out there who wont see that they are basically getting the same - too weak for a 6 supply unit - deal in a different package and will cheer for "new stuff". ---- Now lets bring the "air opposition" for comparison: GuardianCost: 150 minerals/200 gas; 40 seconds; 2 supply Defense: 2 armor/150 hit points Offense: 20(+2) damage; 30 "cooldown"; range 8 Speed: SLOW BroodlordCost: 300 minerals/250 gas; 74 seconds; 4 supply Defense: 1 armor; 225 hit points Offense: 20(+2) damage; 2,5 "cooldown"; range 9,5 Speed: SLOW The Guardian has more armor but a lot less hit points and costs twice the supply compared to the Broodlord, however ... the Broodlord has a lower cooldown compared with the Thor and the Guardian had a significantly higher cooldown than the Goliath. In addition the Broodlings spawned by the Broodlord prevent it from moving and this is a decided advantage AND they deal additional damage as well during their short lifespan. Conclusion #2If we assume the relationship between the Goliath and its Zerg counterpart to be balanced in BW the stats are totally in Zergs favour in SC2 with a lower cooldown AND free units for the Broodlord while the Thor and this new proposed change does not improve the situation one bit. Just 0,5 range advantage of the Thor is supposed to make up for free units which block the way and limit maneuverability ... who really believes that? IF the change was "four attacks of 24 damage against a single target" - like they have for the splash attack - it would have been too much but closer to the target than the 24 damage. That isnt the case. It is ONE attack of 24 damage. Personally I would say it should be "four single target attacks against separate targets OR - if there is only one target/the Thor gets told which target to focus down - against one target". An appropriate damage would be something like 12-16 for each of these attacks. Oh and this should replace the current abuseable AoE damage. I think the new Thor AA cannons should be tested some more in the beta in live games and unit testers before definitively drawing any conclusions. From the one test that I managed to do before the servers went down, a Thor will beat a Broodlord with the AA cannons whereas the Broodlord will beat the Thor when its using the AA missiles. Also, the cooldown for the AA cannons is 2 seconds as opposed to the 3 second cooldown of the AA missiles, which adds a bit more single-target DPS. That is good to know but not listed in the patch notes ...
I suspect a few things were added that weren't explained in the patch notes, such as tweaked Carrier micro or the Thor AA cannon cooldown. Maybe there are some more undocumented changes in there.
It's not surprising considering that we got a few new settings in 2.0.1 that weren't officially documented until now with 2.0.2.
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On December 06 2012 21:00 hugman wrote:I think sharing both attack and armor upg between air and mech is too much. Armor only might be fine. Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 18:43 Pursuit_ wrote:
As a Terran, here are my initial thoughts.
New Seeker Missile sucks if it got rid of splash and is pretty nice if it didn't, though it overlaps with Yamato a lot It doesn't have splash and it won't suck. One HSM will kill a BL from 10 range! Ravens cost half the supply of a BL and quite a bit less in terms of resources, so they're going to be very efficient vs them. Even against Ultras I imagine HSM will be okay. 300 single target dmg is a ton.
Still if you fire your Seeker Missile the Raven becomes useless for a long time. I like the direction they are going in though. I'd suggest reducing Auto Turret Energy cost to 25 or make Auto Turret droppable even if units are on the ground or lower Point Defence Drone Enegery cost to 75. Just do anything that the Raven can be used after having fired a Seeker Missile.
On December 06 2012 21:07 Elitios wrote:
Overall seems like a really fun patch in the right direction this time. :D
I just regret that:
1.- the energize ability has not be reinstalled
2.- the carrier mechanics have not been improved
On a side note, the upgrade change for terran seems like vikings will become a little too strong a counter to colossus/broodlords. But hey, what do I know.
They have. Was just not documented. Change target in leash range is possible now.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
The changes... They're beautiful :3
I'm so happy about the new widow mine change as it allows you to burrow it as you go into battle without it being totally sniped.
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someone should remake that test map vid with a 3/5 ultra vs a million 0/0 slowlings and see how many it can murder this time :D
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more speed to mutas lol.... they call it ballance pach .... lol
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On December 06 2012 21:09 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 20:37 Sigmur wrote:
Yay dt shrine is cheaper - who cares when gateway units will suck even more with all these buffs to other races' units. This. Gateway units will be even more retarded against stronger enemy units.
You're crazy! Stalkers can now Blink against Zerg super effectively. Fungals can be dodged, Blinding Clouds are ineffective. Now Dark Shrine should always be an option! Yay! I admit, MMM will demolish basic Gateway armies. But, HTs can quickly negate any buffs with some well placed storms and feedbacks on the super medivacs.
That said, I'm hope Protoss will see more dynamic changes, at least I am hoping. They seem to be getting pigeon-holed into making Stargate units at the moment.
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I wanted to give some actual playtime to these changes before offering an opinion but seeing as beta is still down, I'll throw in my 2 pence.
Medivac changes are probably going to be downgraded a bit (specifically the speed boost) but they're a cool idea which I like.
Air and mech upgrades might seem strong but considering terran has a hellish time tech switching compared to Z and P, it's meant to balance that out. Also a cool little upgrade for vikings - 3/3 vikings actually kick a fair amount of arse on the ground.
Protoss air seems very interesting but I don't have an opinion on it. Leashing carriers is very good. Not sure about the Void Ray. It's still potentially going to be very weak and the Prismatic Focusing/Alignment/Whatever seems unnecessary - just a button to press prior to combat with virtually any air.
Tempests are no longer the counter to any large unit built. That's nice.
Thor cannons are pretty much exactly what they needed. Removal of energy plus an ability to deal with more powerful air units at range. They're not going to trade against battlecruisers and carriers (you can't really overcome Yamato or long range leashing) but they will trade pretty evenly with anything else except Tempests at max range.
Raven seeker missile feels like it's got a bit too much overlap with Yamato cannon. I wouldn't mind if they stuck with the mechanics of the current seeker missile but used the new design. Then again, I've yet to play with it.
Redesign of fungal growth and drastic weakening of infested terrans is welcome.
Widow mine change is nice.
Still convinced they need to buff hydras somehow. Don't know how though.
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On December 06 2012 21:14 aklambda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 21:00 hugman wrote:I think sharing both attack and armor upg between air and mech is too much. Armor only might be fine. On December 06 2012 18:43 Pursuit_ wrote:
As a Terran, here are my initial thoughts.
New Seeker Missile sucks if it got rid of splash and is pretty nice if it didn't, though it overlaps with Yamato a lot It doesn't have splash and it won't suck. One HSM will kill a BL from 10 range! Ravens cost half the supply of a BL and quite a bit less in terms of resources, so they're going to be very efficient vs them. Even against Ultras I imagine HSM will be okay. 300 single target dmg is a ton. Still if you fire your Seeker Missile the Raven becomes useless for a long time. I like the direction they are going in though. I'd suggest reducing Auto Turret Energy cost to 25 or make Auto Turret droppable even if units are on the ground or lower Point Defence Drone Enegery cost to 75. Just do anything that the Raven can be used after having fired a Seeker Missile.
At dodgeable single target damage it doesnt seem justified to have Seeker Missile cost 125 energy anymore.
Personally I dont like this change that much, because you can too easily do it as an "instant Queen assassination" move for example. They should have kept the old flying missile and just increased the trigger range to 10, because it isnt that fast anyways and you dont have such an easy time to figure out which unit from your clump is the real target.
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On December 06 2012 09:17 rpgalon wrote:
VOIDRAY
DPS vs light
Before: 10 dps Uncharged / 13.33 dps Charged
Now: 12 dps
DPS vs Armored
Before: 16.67 dps Uncharged / 26.67 dps Charged
Now: 32 dps (~92% damage increase for the standard attack O.o)
OBS: I'm counting that the new ability is activated...
That is... a really large buff. Along with how ridiculous the new oracle is after this patch, and the other buffs, I don't know why the Protoss players on BNET are crying so much.
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Maaaaaannnn! Where are all the hots-streams!? I wanna watch the new hots so bad!
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Isn't the new Seeker Missile basically Yamato Cannon? I really like the oracle change and mech/air upgrades. Reaper and medivac look interesting, but they could become a problem.
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On December 06 2012 21:19 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 09:17 rpgalon wrote:
VOIDRAY
DPS vs light
Before: 10 dps Uncharged / 13.33 dps Charged
Now: 12 dps
DPS vs Armored
Before: 16.67 dps Uncharged / 26.67 dps Charged
Now: 32 dps (~92% damage increase for the standard attack O.o)
OBS: I'm counting that the new ability is activated... That is... a really large buff. Along with how ridiculous the new oracle is after this patch, and the other buffs, I don't know why the Protoss players on BNET are crying so much.
I don't know, despite all the amazing Terran buffs I'm still shocked to not see tons of terrans crying. Bad low league players will always be bad and low league for a reason.
On December 06 2012 21:09 Sigmur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 20:49 Prog455 wrote:On December 06 2012 20:37 Sigmur wrote:
This patch is bullshit.
Vortex not able to kill massive units, whereas neural parasite can take control over massive.
Faster healing and extreme speed buff for medivacs wtf.
Mutalisk are too slow - lol - and get a speed buff.
Yay dt shrine is cheaper - who cares when gateway units will suck even more with all these buffs to other races' units. Well first of all you should notice that every race has been buffed significantly. Medivacs have been buffed, but Protoss and Zerg has also been giving the means to deal with stronger bio forces. Same goes for improve Mutalisks. Also it is true that Gateways units may not do quite as well against bio units for instance, but Stargate on the other hand is now much more viable. Secondly it is very intentional to nerf Vortex into obscurity, since it was very badly designed for competitive play. It was always ment for casuals. You think stargate compensate for lack of ANY buffs to gateway units? Afterall stargate units are very expensive and you just can't mass them like you can mass bio. Even if you could, marines would just own them. Good that atleast they try to buff terran, so maybe HotS won't be as forgivable to zerg as it is in WoL.
Well it's not like Zerg got compensated for the Infestor getting nerfed, all Zerg get is a bit quicker Mutas and Hydras, neither of which are particularly good against mega-healing bio. Oh but Zerg gets a bit better UItra damage...that'd be nice if Zergs were ever gonna make it to hive tech any more at least.
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On December 06 2012 21:21 Zane wrote:
Isn't the new Seeker Missile basically Yamato Cannon? I really like the oracle change and mech/air upgrades. Reaper and medivac look interesting, but they could become a problem.
Why they changed the medivac healing is beyond me. There have been enough games already where bio refuses to die once the "1 Medivac for each bio unit" ratio has been reached and now they heal even better for less energy?
On December 06 2012 21:22 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 21:19 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 06 2012 09:17 rpgalon wrote:
VOIDRAY
DPS vs light
Before: 10 dps Uncharged / 13.33 dps Charged
Now: 12 dps
DPS vs Armored
Before: 16.67 dps Uncharged / 26.67 dps Charged
Now: 32 dps (~92% damage increase for the standard attack O.o)
OBS: I'm counting that the new ability is activated... That is... a really large buff. Along with how ridiculous the new oracle is after this patch, and the other buffs, I don't know why the Protoss players on BNET are crying so much. I don't know, despite all the amazing Terran buffs I'm still shocked to not see tons of terrans crying. Bad low league players will always be bad and low league for a reason.
Easy to answer ... because Terrans know how to PLAY WITH STYLE. They have the Siege Tank, the best designed unit in the game, and yet that unit didnt get buffed one single bit and its "replacement" (the Widow Mine) only satisfies the people who think "powerful = fun".
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The seeker missle change seems strange, I don't get that one at all. Most of the other changes seems good or at least in the right direction, I'm excited to try it out!
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team.EG-LQD: plz fuck proleague and set up beta streams 24/7 XD
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