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I'm not really complaining, I'm just wondering if anybody else has been having a real hard time with mutalisks playing against terran since they have gotten widow mines? I have found that they don't even need to build missile turrets anymore, they simply now build enough widow mines to put at each bases and then they just position their marines to prevent mutalisk harrass.
I always found with mutalisk play that you would build 8-10 just to force a reaction out of the terran, he would build missile turrets and if he didn't do so then you could do a little bit of damage. If you didn't do damage, then meh, the terran was forced to do stuff he didn't want to.
However, I have found that the Widow Mine is especially good to stop mutalisk play (In fact, I feel like their is almost zero reason to do it now), and it isn't all that much costly for terran, because they simply use the widow mines later as static defense around their other bases to prevent ling run by lings?
Thoughts? I really feel like mutalisks are becoming more and more useless. As a player who hates infestor play, I usually try to play ling/baneling/muta and am finding it harder to play in ZvT... Especially since Terran are already getting good at playing against it.
Also, this is a bit more off topic, but Widow Mines against cloaked units... I dunno, it's really REALLY getting annoying and almost impossible to do anything gimicky with cloaked stuff. I play random sometimes and when I roll protoss, some terran are building 1-2 widow mines from their non-addon factory and place them randomly in their base. As soon as your observer gets their it's dead, you can't even respond to it.
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And terran complains that we zergs dont make mutalisks anymore. We dont make it because there are so many "anti harassing" units now that its better to just mass infestor turtle into deathball.
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Widow mines cost supply whereas turrets dont. So the terran sacrifices a lot by going mines > turrets.
Keep that in mind and suddenly your mutas are doing their damage by forcing terran to commit supply to strict defense in the form of widow mines at home. ;O
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On December 02 2012 20:51 xSTaRFiSHx wrote:
Widow mines cost supply whereas turrets dont. So the terran sacrifices a lot by going mines > turrets.
Keep that in mind and suddenly your mutas are doing their damage by forcing terran to commit supply to strict defense in the form of widow mines at home. ;O
It is supply that is true, however it's not much supply for the timing in which mutalisks are actually useful (What supply is a terran at when mutalisks hit... something like 70-80). Also the fact that widow mines can be later used to prevent things such as run bys or simply suicided into a mineral line or something along the lines of that, I believe that it's always going to be a good investment.
1 Supply isn't much considering people will often leave 4 units in bunkers next to remote expansions.
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It is pretty clear to everyone (or almost everyone) that mines completely go against blizzard's antideathball ideas. If you want to prevent deathball play you should not introduce units that make harrass very inefficient. Is there a reason why anyone would go mutalisks if he really cared about winning? I kind of doubt it. A widow mine costs 75/25 and it can kill 1 mutalisk+damage some of them... but, Karpfen, why can't I bring an overseer and just snipe it? Well, you still lose 100/100 (of a unit that already requires lair,spire) in order to take down a 75/25 unit. Hey but at least that unit dies even if i haven't got an overseer.. No it doesn't because instead of acting like a mine it decided to act like a heavy missile turret with high power long cooldown shots. Also this renders oracle and banshee very questionable against terran. Obviously i believe that if Blizzard makes the smart choice of removing widow mines they should also make up for it with a unit that doesn't kill harrass..... or Zergs can just go infestor corruptor broodlord more rightfully than before.
Edit: On the usually recurring baneling mine argument: banelings mine can deal a lot of damage to marine based armies. But they are nowhere near widow mines because:
1)the cost of a baneling mine is double the cost of a widow mine (a single baneling kills no one)
2)Banelings need units to effectively walk over them
3)Banelings require the zerg player to activate them manually (this is huge, even in top games often they aren't detonated when they should)
4)The terran army is composed of ranged low cost units which can snipe the mine given they have detection. (raven/scan)
5)A widow mine can do the same damage to a zergling force as 2 banelings to a marine force
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Karpfen summarized it pretty good, however i am still excited about the muta buff. i just find it wierd that they prefere to guff EVERETHING else (faster detection wich is basicly free, muta buff, medivac buff [both only planned yet]) instead of simply changing the widdow mine.
IMO it should either be visable or not attack air (more the 2nd one) but even if everything stays the same i think there is still ways that need trying. for example running a overlord in to tank the mines or sth.
but as karpfen already said, it totally goes against the anti deathball idea!
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Yes this is the most disappointment in HotS so far personally, I really love using Muta in ZvT. No it's not that Terran only need to burrow 2 WM around the base, it's the combination of 1 Turret, 2 WM and 4 Marines that can cover the whole base.
1 Turret + WM will counter the whole harassment process. 1 WM + some marines will protect all addons + Sensor Tower
The only successful way to actually attack the base for me is using Overlord speed/drop and fly them into the base with some ling. But really this will never become a thing because all they need to do is building Sensor Tower or have really good map control or just all in (all in with Hell Bat, WM are very strong vs Muta play)
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On December 02 2012 21:00 Karpfen wrote:
Edit: On the usually recurring baneling mine argument: banelings mine can deal a lot of damage to marine based armies. But they are nowhere near widow mines because:
1)the cost of a baneling mine is double the cost of a widow mine (a single baneling kills no one)
2)Banelings need units to effectively walk over them
3)Banelings require the zerg player to activate them manually (this is huge, even in top games often they aren't detonated when they should)
4)The terran army is composed of ranged low cost units which can snipe the mine given they have detection. (raven/scan)
5)A widow mine can do the same damage to a zergling force as 2 banelings to a marine force
I'll be the last person who claims widow mines are just like banelings, but this list is pretty poor imo.
1) And half the supply cost.
2) True widow mines got range
3) You can simply enable autocast if you like automatic activation
4) And the zerg army is composed of loads of free units which activate them
5) ???
Anyway the problem with widow mines is simply they dont do their intended role, and are only a cheesy/gimmick unit, and early/mid game shutting down harrasment completely (later on you rather got more missile turrets then the supply cost of widow mines). They dont do anything against deathballs, only promote them, and dont help terran later in the game since they are just too easy to kill.
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Last time I went muta in HOTS my first 9 mutas died instantly to a Widow mine 
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On December 02 2012 21:54 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 21:00 Karpfen wrote:
Edit: On the usually recurring baneling mine argument: banelings mine can deal a lot of damage to marine based armies. But they are nowhere near widow mines because:
1)the cost of a baneling mine is double the cost of a widow mine (a single baneling kills no one)
2)Banelings need units to effectively walk over them
3)Banelings require the zerg player to activate them manually (this is huge, even in top games often they aren't detonated when they should)
4)The terran army is composed of ranged low cost units which can snipe the mine given they have detection. (raven/scan)
5)A widow mine can do the same damage to a zergling force as 2 banelings to a marine force
I'll be the last person who claims widow mines are just like banelings, but this list is pretty poor imo. 1) And half the supply cost. 2) True widow mines got range 3) You can simply enable autocast if you like automatic activation 4) And the zerg army is composed of loads of free units which activate them 5) ??? Anyway the problem with widow mines is simply they dont do their intended role, and are only a cheesy/gimmick unit, and early/mid game shutting down harrasment completely (later on you rather got more missile turrets then the supply cost of widow mines). They dont do anything against deathballs, only promote them, and dont help terran later in the game since they are just too easy to kill.
1) you are right
3) this would greatly diminish baneling mine's power. It can obviously be done but having 2 banes dying for a marine going forward is pretty silly. (there is no real reason to enable autocast)
4) but the activation doesn't really kill the mine. Also they can target air (1 shot banshee, prism). Ling run bys will be heavily slowed if you use some forward lings to clear the mines making them not effective at all.
5)¿¿¿
I agree on the rest completely.
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according to liquipedia a widowmine costs 2 supply not 1.
If you build 10 widowmines with a reactored factory,
you will not be able to produce a single offensive unit around 4 minutes.
The other factories will most likely produce tanks and without good hellion/marine
support terran wont attack. The main reason to produce mutalisks was never
to deal significant damage it is to secure additional bases without beeing attacked.
I dont see any real problems with this goal. If widowmine would not be able to defend
a mechplayer vs mutalisk terran would need a good mech-alternativ. Thor isnt really
able to do the job without support.
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On December 02 2012 20:35 blug wrote:
some terran are building 1-2 widow mines from their non-addon factory and place them randomly in their base. As soon as your observer gets their it's dead, you can't even respond to it.
Observer - 11 vision range. Mine - 5 range, has trigger delay.
I don't want to insult you or your feelings, but I must, since this thread is leading lower level players into the wrong conclusion that there is something correct with what you are saying, I must respond, as misinformation is dangerous in the hands of stupid and incompetent people.
1. Mine has 5 range, observer has 11 range. You must be a really bad player to lose your observer to a widow mine. If you do, you deserved to lose it. Lower players, before judging, please think if it wasn't you who could have done something better.
2. Banshees, stalkers and marauders have 6 range. Mine has 5. There is NO way 10 stalkers trade evenly with 10 mines. For that matter of fact, unless you suicide your obs on top of the mines, THEN blink on top of the mines, there is no way to lose anything to mines. While lower level players might lose stalkers to mines, a remotely competent player will clean a cluster of mines with no losses. Don't forget: any remotely competent player will WIN with stalkers without losses vs mines.
3. Mines are just underpowered. A proof for that is that there is no large scale usage in higher leagues, shows how completeley useless they are past minute 7 of the game.
4. Mines don't stop cloaked units harrass. Vs toss no terran would make mines (as they are plain bad), and vs terran many masters and gm terrans including me use banshees with no problem. Banshee has 6 range, if you scan ahead, you can kill the mine, then there is a free mineral line for you. Muta harrass is also not shut down at all, as if you bring an overseer, you can just sack some mutas to the cluster of mines, then destroy the mines and basically just nest on top of his production structures. So the terran still has to make turrets anyway. Don't forget: lower level players will not bring an overseer, will clump their mutas, will fly them into the mine line, will not respond on the first detonation, will fly in more, lose all their mutas. Any remotely competent player will just avoid gthe minefield, kill some stray units, and when and if the mines try to relocate, snipe them.
We don't see mines in late game, cause they are plain bad. I propose an upgrade that gives 2 range to the mine. I also propose incompetent players to stop making threads about balance. Cause of incompetent players making qq threads, that's why we have the current GGfestor and the GGlord, and the SiegeQueen. Think about it. You don't want to be one of the reasons why starcraft is not a good esport, do you?
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lead with an overseer, they tank like two or three mines and let you see them so you know you wont die.... pretty simple solution to be honest. if you dont allow the mines to do damage to important units then the person with the mines will have a weaker army and be in bad shape
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Nash, you do not need 10 widow mines to be safe from muta harassment you need 1 well placed widow mine and 2 turrets per base. And your other aa units + turret can defend your unit producing structures, this is not nearly the investment zerg put into the harassment to begin with. Harassment is a major reason to build mutalisks, not the only reason but one of the main reasons.
You get map control by forcing his units to be in his base to defend from the harassment and killing of counter-harassment by your opponent. This is how your were safe to take expansions as zerg when going for muta. This is now shut-down by widow mines.
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On December 03 2012 00:45 Elldar wrote:
This is now shut-down by widow mines.
No, it is not. The players with the mines can't go out on the map, cause as soon as the zerg understands there are widow mines moving out on the map, he is gonna just make a bunch of lings, lead with an obs, see the mines, send a lone ling, waste the mines charge, then kill the mines. The zerg lost a ling or two, you lost 5 mines. Mines don't allow for map control, unless we are talking about very very low leagues, where I have no idea what goes on.
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On December 03 2012 00:39 madespecifically wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 20:35 blug wrote:
some terran are building 1-2 widow mines from their non-addon factory and place them randomly in their base. As soon as your observer gets their it's dead, you can't even respond to it. Observer - 11 vision range. Mine - 5 range, has trigger delay. I don't want to insult you or your feelings, but I must, since this thread is leading lower level players into the wrong conclusion that there is something correct with what you are saying, I must respond, as misinformation is dangerous in the hands of stupid and incompetent people. 1. Mine has 5 range, observer has 11 range. You must be a really bad player to lose your observer to a widow mine. If you do, you deserved to lose it. Lower players, before judging, please think if it wasn't you who could have done something better. 2. Banshees, stalkers and marauders have 6 range. Mine has 5. There is NO way 10 stalkers trade evenly with 10 mines. For that matter of fact, unless you suicide your obs on top of the mines, THEN blink on top of the mines, there is no way to lose anything to mines. While lower level players might lose stalkers to mines, a remotely competent player will clean a cluster of mines with no losses. Don't forget: any remotely competent player will WIN with stalkers without losses vs mines. 3. Mines are just underpowered. A proof for that is that there is no large scale usage in higher leagues, shows how completeley useless they are past minute 7 of the game. 4. Mines don't stop cloaked units harrass. Vs toss no terran would make mines (as they are plain bad), and vs terran many masters and gm terrans including me use banshees with no problem. Banshee has 6 range, if you scan ahead, you can kill the mine, then there is a free mineral line for you. Muta harrass is also not shut down at all, as if you bring an overseer, you can just sack some mutas to the cluster of mines, then destroy the mines and basically just nest on top of his production structures. So the terran still has to make turrets anyway. Don't forget: lower level players will not bring an overseer, will clump their mutas, will fly them into the mine line, will not respond on the first detonation, will fly in more, lose all their mutas. Any remotely competent player will just avoid gthe minefield, kill some stray units, and when and if the mines try to relocate, snipe them. We don't see mines in late game, cause they are plain bad. I propose an upgrade that gives 2 range to the mine. I also propose incompetent players to stop making threads about balance. Cause of incompetent players making qq threads, that's why we have the current GGfestor and the GGlord, and the SiegeQueen. Think about it. You don't want to be one of the reasons why starcraft is not a good esport, do you?
It was unnecessary the way you posted that, and I get a great feeling that you play terran and are very biased. I am a mid masters casual zerg, when I talk about Observers and such I obviously don't have 100% knowledge on that, I just said it to hear opinions on it, but when I talk about Zerg I feel like I have an idea what I am talking about.
When I build mutalisks, I have the intention to force my opponent to react with missile turrets and also to gain a bit of map control if they are using hellions. However, the widow mine is cancelling out the need to be as vigorous with missile placement. This is bad, simply because the widow mines can be used later on, whether or not they are used strategically on the map to assist with preventing run bys and burrowed unit play.
When you put a widow mine down at a base, obviously a good zerg should assume that they are located around the map, and if I go mutalisks, I'm going to do harrass and lose a mutalisk. That is a trade no good Zerg is willing to make, overseer or not, especially since mutalisk attack range is so small and can't out range the mine.
Also, you 100% lost your credibility as soon as you started talking about the gglord bull crap. I'm not one to say it isn't overpowered, but even in my initial post I said that I try to avoid using infestors. Also, many would consider mutalisk play to be balanced, if not, underpowered since terrans have worked out how to beat it so well now. This is by no means qq, this is me talking about Mutalisks and keeping them viable in ZvT. It will make the ZvT matchup more dynamic rather than a tunnel visioned mode getting from hatchery tech to infestors into broodlords.
Also, you talk as if these so called pro players can deal with widow mines easily. That simply isn't the case, I'm not going to use my credentials as a mid master and say I am near the level of the pros because I'm not. However, I do watch a shit load of streams and I see how pros utilize their APM. When a Zerg does a run by into a terrans command center, they don't even watch their lings half the time. If anything, a widow mine is just going to force the zerg to have to be more micro intensive to avoid dying. When is it ever a bad thing to force your opponent to have better multi tasking skills in a matchup at a smallish cost?
It seems very narrow minded calling something such as the Widow Mine underpowered just because it doesn't kill a whole flock of mutalisks if they fly into one. If I lose 1 mutalisk out of 8 and the rest get damaged... as a Zerg player I feel like my harrass has been weakened significantly.
I have seen them used late game on streams, they obviously don't kill armies on their own but they serve their purpose in late game. If they suck so much and you want more mech units, then go sack them... The same way Zerg sack their roaches when they want more of your so called ggLords.
Stop saying "Higher Leagues" as if they are that high and mighty. SC2's very foundation is based on trying to make your opponent make small mistakes and the Widow Mine assists you with this. Even if the widow mines don't do direct damage, they will do indirect damage because they will force the opposing player to focus more APM on the mines in which they could of been using it else where.
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On December 03 2012 00:45 AndreiDaGiant wrote:
lead with an overseer, they tank like two or three mines and let you see them so you know you wont die.... pretty simple solution to be honest. if you dont allow the mines to do damage to important units then the person with the mines will have a weaker army and be in bad shape
They tank two. But regardless, this is pretty effective, especially since Terrans that use widow mines to defend tend to think only two mines with no additional AA is enough to stop all mutas.
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On December 03 2012 01:45 blug wrote: I am a mid masters casual zerg, when I talk about Observers and such I obviously don't have 100% knowledge on that, I just said it to hear opinions on it, but when I talk about Zerg I feel like I have an idea what I am talking about.
Then don't talk about the toss side of things.
On December 03 2012 01:45 blug wrote:
When a Zerg does a run by into a terrans command center, they don't even watch their lings half the time.
On December 03 2012 01:45 blug wrote:
It seems very narrow minded calling something such as the Widow Mine underpowered just because it doesn't kill a whole flock of mutalisks if they fly into one. If I lose 1 mutalisk out of 8 and the rest get damaged... as a Zerg player I feel like my harrass has been weakened significantly.
And when I lose to medivacs to 3 infestors, without the possibility to move them, from a 9 range insta cast spell, I feel somebody at Blizzard isn't doing their work right.
On December 03 2012 01:45 blug wrote:
Even if the widow mines don't do direct damage, they will do indirect damage because they will force the opposing player to focus more APM on the mines in which they could of been using it else where
Basically now zerg can't only a move and that is a bad thing cause you can't handle it? Looking at the current state of balance in WOL, I would think it would be nice for a change if zerg players tried to micro for the win instead of just a moving into siege lines.
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On December 03 2012 02:02 madespecifically wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 01:45 blug wrote: I am a mid masters casual zerg, when I talk about Observers and such I obviously don't have 100% knowledge on that, I just said it to hear opinions on it, but when I talk about Zerg I feel like I have an idea what I am talking about.
Then don't talk about the toss side of things. Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 01:45 blug wrote:
When a Zerg does a run by into a terrans command center, they don't even watch their lings half the time.
Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 01:45 blug wrote:
It seems very narrow minded calling something such as the Widow Mine underpowered just because it doesn't kill a whole flock of mutalisks if they fly into one. If I lose 1 mutalisk out of 8 and the rest get damaged... as a Zerg player I feel like my harrass has been weakened significantly.
And when I lose to medivacs to 3 infestors, without the possibility to move them, from a 9 range insta cast spell, I feel somebody at Blizzard isn't doing their work right. Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 01:45 blug wrote:
Even if the widow mines don't do direct damage, they will do indirect damage because they will force the opposing player to focus more APM on the mines in which they could of been using it else where
Basically now zerg can't only a move and that is a bad thing cause you can't handle it? Looking at the current state of balance in WOL, I would think it would be nice for a change if zerg players tried to micro for the win instead of just a moving into siege lines.
Ok, for some reason you keep bringing up infestors. I have no idea why, this has nothing to do infestors. I even agreed that infestors are OP.
You also defend the current widow mines by talking about Zerg not having to A-Move anymore... That's exactly what the widow mine does! It stops it so that Zerg can't A-Move with Ling harrass so good job defending the Widow Mine (Even though you have consistently talked about how bad it is).
Also, stop talking as if Terran don't A-Walk their drops. Even QXC admits that when he does drops he just shift clicks them and doesn't focus on them to much. Zerg Micro against Terran isn't just A-Walk btw, I've played random quite a bit, and when I get Terran the micro is more involved, but a lot of it is mindless micro. Doing the stuff which people like Stephano does can't be done by any normal player, it's not easy.
Yes, I do agree I shouldn't be talking about toss, I just mentioned other scenarios where the widow mine can be useful.
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Don't widow mines deal splash damage to friendly units? If so they would be a terrible choice to guard mineral lines i guess.
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EPT
