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I'm starting to come around to WM hitting air not being such a bad thing. I don't have the beta, so I didn't know about the delay, other than I think I've noticed it on streams. It is to say, that 1 widow mine can't screw over a zerg if he plays well. Spot it with an overseer, charge in and kill it before it can activate, start killing scvs. If they have too many WM in 1 place, then don't go in, is that so bad?
You can also use the overseer to tank 1 hit if they have 2 mines.
In response to Blade555's argument that to make muta harass dependent on overseer spotting will negate mutas primary advantage (speed): I think you're being over dramatic on what this does to muta play. Yes, it will raise the skill cap on muta harass, but is that bad? I also don't think it's too much to ask for 2 overseers, 1 where you're hitting now, and one where you want to hit next.
At the same time, I really don't think core unit design dissuading zerg from going muta is good for the game at all, this turtle into infestor/BL style is crap and makes me want to walk away from the game.
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I think you could fly in an overlord before you send the mutas since the OV's don't die to the mines. It does make mutalisk play much harder though and I would like to see the play style buffed to further reward muta retention in the later game.
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Bear in mind everyone is struggling to win, regardless of league or race. It's only natural to feel miffed when something (such as muta harassment) you've been using to cling to that win-rate becomes massively more difficult to execute for what feels like a negligible cost on your opponent's part. He spends 75/25 (or indeed nothing at all; I have no way of knowing) and now I need to invest overseers and (realistically) overlord speed just in case he bothered to build a mine and hide it somewhere. My gut reaction to that is: I can only just make muta harassment pay for itself against the calibre of opponents I'm facing in WoL. In HotS it's going to be entirely beyond me. So I won't bother.
I keep coming back to what I said a while ago: if Zerg had been given WidowBanes in HotS, there would have been a tidal wave of QQ that would have swept the internet away like a sandcastle. Yet here we are talking about how, in the Terran army, they're not worth building. I don't know how to make that fit inside my head.
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On December 03 2012 18:15 SolidZeal wrote:
I'm starting to come around to WM hitting air not being such a bad thing. I don't have the beta, so I didn't know about the delay, other than I think I've noticed it on streams. It is to say, that 1 widow mine can't screw over a zerg if he plays well. Spot it with an overseer, charge in and kill it before it can activate, start killing scvs. If they have too many WM in 1 place, then don't go in, is that so bad?
You can also use the overseer to tank 1 hit if they have 2 mines.
In response to Blade555's argument that to make muta harass dependent on overseer spotting will negate mutas primary advantage (speed): I think you're being over dramatic on what this does to muta play. Yes, it will raise the skill cap on muta harass, but is that bad? I also don't think it's too much to ask for 2 overseers, 1 where you're hitting now, and one where you want to hit next.
At the same time, I really don't think core unit design dissuading zerg from going muta is good for the game at all, this turtle into infestor/BL style is crap and makes me want to walk away from the game.
how does waiting for a slowass overseer increase the skill? everytime you move above ground you will have to move in overseerspeed because for 25 gas terrans will start burrowing 4-6 mines over the whole map to get lucky hits (before they are maxed out of course) and blizzards idea to fix mutas vs mines is to give mutas faster speed...so...they can now move in...overseerspeed. lol. nice thinking ^^
i dont even get why terran say the mine is bad (its bad in lategame but in early game and midgame vs strats like mutas its awesome). in wol mutas were already hard to play and now you have to invest 100 gas in ovispeed, morph 2-3 extra overseer, have to move in overseerspeed and even if you see the mines they trade 25 gas for 100 gas. like wtf is going on in terrans minds that they say mutas are fine right now? they were fine in WoL and even there they were figured out and you never ever saw mass ling bling muta in the last year or so (only 8-13 mutas and transition into infestor). and now they are effectively a lot slower, you have less of them and cant trade effectively with mines...
remove the retarded single target damage that makes the mine instaeffective vs mutas, DTs, banshees and dropships. you always trade 25 for 100-125 even if the opponent plays PERFECT. like literally its always effective vs these units so they wont be played because these units HAVE TO do damage since they suck in straight up fights. so if you see the mine but cant fight it effectively and therefore do no damage its not worth building DTs, banshees, mutas or go for drops.
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On December 03 2012 19:02 Decendos wrote:
how does waiting for a slowass overseer increase the skill?
It doesn't just take skill, it takes tactical awareness. I'm saying that when you send overlords over to his side of the map early game, you morph them into overseers before you head towards his base with the mutas. Where the skill comes in is that you need to poke in with your overseer seconds before you move in with your mutas. Then, you need to scout out safe movement paths with your seer before you send your mutas just anywhere in his base. This will be harder to control than normal muta harass.
There is a powerful psychological factor with widow mines, even more so than baneling mines imo, because of the range. I think this is getting to you. There is a feeling that mines are everywhere, but really there not. This is especially true once you get into his base with mutas. If terran was going mech and is counting on that 1-2 widow mines per mineral line to keep him safe, and you kill them quickly and efficiently, then he's going to take massive damage. Unless of course, he has a thor on the way, but most likely he's working on tanks and hellions. It's hard to use mines to stop the harassment once you're in, because you can kill them as they try to burrow.
WM are really powerful, but they have some serious limitation that make me think they'll never really be OP. I watched a really awesome TvT where Dragon was using WM as his only anti-air, It worked great as they killed 2 banshees for free. Painful for the guy who sent them, but really it was his fault for not scanning before charging in. Anyway, his 3rd banshee did get in. What followed was a really awesome micro battle, wherever the widow mines couldn't reach, the banshee was killing workers, the few marines Dragon had, and he even killed a few mines. Dragon was able to "surround" it with 3 mines and kill it, but it did show how mines have limitations and can make some awesome micro situations.
If you are worried about mines being "all over the map" then run singleton lings around to find out where they are, then clean them up.
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so the balanced mutaharrass is now a lot weaker: 100 gas for ovispeed, 200 for overseers = 3 less mutas. so instead of the initial 8-11 you get 5-8. and they move slower...a lot slower...AND cant attack even if they scout the mine. so basically what you say the perfectly balanced mutaplay in wol got nerfed incredibly through the WM is fine? no one says the WM is OP. the problem is that the WM completely shuts down a strategy path of the zerg. why would you ever go mutas if they were balanced in wol and in HOTS nothing changes for the zerg side if you go muta but the WM makes them a lot worse. there is simply absolutely 0 reason for zerg to go muta again. none.
same thing goes for banshee play. the banshee is at least able to kill the mines because it outranges them, BUT (and this is a huge one): if you go banshee you NEED to do damage = kill some worker to be even. if you now have to scan everytime you try to kill worker...well guess what, thats one less mule for every scan so no terran will ever go banshee opening again because in wol you had to kill 5-8 worker to make the banshee pay for itself and now you lose mules so you would have to kill even more worker. it doesnt matter that dragon tried to go WM only. but even with mech you got some marines, go mines and add 1 turret per base and the banshee player will be so far behind that no one will ever go banshee again in TvT.
again: WM is not OP but it shuts down a lot of different, fun to use, a lot of skill needing strategies and force the player to go into a techpath. if they would cost 100 gas each and force a player into that techpath it would be fine. but the VERY cheap mines completely negating a lot of strategies is a bad thing. the mine is just too good vs everything which is the reason it is 2 supply which is the reason it sucks lategame.
so making it less good vs air and cloak harrass while buffing their lategame usage (less supply) and antiground usage (more splash damage and/or more range) would make the mine and the whole game a lot better since harrassment is one of the best parts of the game. macro for 20 min and 1 huge deathball fight is what the mine in its current state accomplishes which is really really bad.
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Anyone who thinks they are OP, I'm sorry, but you just need to micro better
What the heck? You can snipe Mine just by A move how's that 'require micro'?
The problem is 1 Turret + 1/2 WM with auto disabled pair with 1 Viking or some marines can shut down the whole muta play, tell me how do you break that? Normally Terran is always in fear of mass muta breaking in and destroy all turrets and kill all marines, thats why Terran have to drop to force Zerg away.
so the balanced mutaharrass is now a lot weaker: 100 gas for ovispeed, 200 for overseers = 3 less mutas. so instead of the initial 8-11 you get 5-8. and they move slower...a lot slower...AND cant attack even if they scout the mine
This exactly. It's not like you can't sacrifice Muta, but the twist is:
1/ You can't sacrifice 1 Muta because good players will keep all Defensive WM on hotkey with Auto off and Turret will kill 1 Muta easier
2/ Muta costs 100 Min 100 Gas. Mine costs 75 Min 25 Gas. Even if the mine can kill 1 Muta it's already cost effective
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 03 2012 22:26 BlueKatz wrote:What the heck? You can snipe Mine just by A move how's that 'require micro'? The problem is 1 Turret + 1/2 WM with auto disabled pair with 1 Viking or some marines can shut down the whole muta play, tell me how do you break that? Normally Terran is always in fear of mass muta breaking in and destroy all turrets and kill all marines, thats why Terran have to drop to force Zerg away. Show nested quote +so the balanced mutaharrass is now a lot weaker: 100 gas for ovispeed, 200 for overseers = 3 less mutas. so instead of the initial 8-11 you get 5-8. and they move slower...a lot slower...AND cant attack even if they scout the mine This exactly. It's not like you can't sacrifice Muta, but the twist is: 1/ You can't sacrifice 1 Muta because good players will keep all Defensive WM on hotkey with Auto off and Turret will kill 1 Muta easier 2/ Muta costs 100 Min 100 Gas. Mine costs 75 Min 25 Gas. Even if the mine can kill 1 Muta it's already cost effective
Okay 1 Turret, + 2 Widow Mines, + 1 Vikings can protect one 9 range space. So what? 1 Thor can protect 1 9 range space, and it's more mobile than what you've listed above. If you force the Terran to have this combination of defenses in multiple places your Mutas have done more than enough damage. These units couldn't even fully protect the main base themselves, you would need more than that.
Okay 100 gas for speed and 200 gas for 4 Overseers? Why do you need 4 of them? If you just make 2 and put them in two different sides of the Terran, you can be not slowed down by them and send them in ahead of your mutas to spot for widow mines. You don't even need the speed on Overseers, because they don't have to follow your mutas around at all times.
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On December 03 2012 12:10 blug wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 10:16 SixtusTheFifth wrote:I think you guys are being trolled a bit. You have a 9 post wonder called "madespecifically" who joined today and has made all 9 posts specifically on the widow mine. A quick scan of his posts brings a sense of deja vu (link). On December 03 2012 00:39 madespecifically wrote:
...this thread is leading lower level players into the wrong conclusion that there is something correct with what you are saying, I must respond, as misinformation is dangerous in the hands of stupid and incompetent people. A quick scan of his posts brings a sense of deja vu (link). On December 03 2012 00:49 madespecifically wrote:
Threads like this are dangerous, since they can lead incompetent players into believing there is truth in what you are saying.
It fact, the deja vu is so disorientating that even he isn't sure if he is proposing an idea: On December 03 2012 00:39 madespecifically wrote:
I propose an upgrade that gives 2 range to the mine. or agreeing with it: On December 03 2012 00:49 madespecifically wrote:
I can agree that late game mine is very weak: so I really like the +2 range upgrade you suggested. I suggest you stop arguing with the sock puppet and wait for the puppetmaster to show up and fight his own battles. Yeah, I'm assuming that they might be trolls, I don't think anybody could be that dumb. Which kind of saddens me because I would like someone who actually knows what they are talking about to say why mutalisks aren't useless.
That guy is DestinationLiquid, the guy from this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384532¤tpage=3
His arguments are the same as the one from that thread, he got banned for insulting every Zerg on the planet because they "a-click" and have no clue how to micro, and every valid argument me, Decendos and Umpteen gave to him, he just changed the subject and stared talking about the Infestors and how they are OP. Looking at his comments from this thread, I am 100% positive that that guy is him, arguments are basically the same, he even said in this thread the same thing what he said in that thread, and that is that nobody is using more than 5-6 Widow Mines and that unit is bad.
I feel bad for him, I mean you guys think that he is a troll, but actually it seems that he really believes in what he is saying.
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Yes Bluekatz, a turret and mines + marines or vikings will make mutas unable to harass...then again, so do marines + turrets currently in WoL...so I don't see what you're trying to say there, if the terran is completely prepared for your attack it will not work.
1. I really think you'll only need 2 overseers, not 4 so more like 1 less muta
2. I clearly suggested using overlords that are already near the terran base to morph into overseers, ovie speed is not a prereq for attacking terran with mutalisks. Is it worth investing in ovie speed when fighting a player going heavy mines? sure, but it's not needed only for muta harass.
3. This is up for testing, but given that I have seen a delay on mine activation, I believe it: A group of 9 mutalisks can kill a widow mine with no losses! This is what the guy was talking about when he mentioned that WM aren't OP if you micro. Sufficiently stacked muta's will kill the mine, after it activates, but before it launches.
That being said it is very possible to attack a mineral line with both a turret up and 2 mines with 9+ mutas and an overseer. You have to trigger 1 mine with the overseer first, then target fire the other mine with the mutas, then you focus down the turret and BAM! you rape the poop out of that mineral line while suffering only minimal damage on your mutas from the missile turret. This will take good micro execution, but when a player leaves 2 mines and a turret to defend a line, he probably didn't expect you to roll in and rape it, so he won't have back up ready and you can get value from the muta attack.
-edit: Nath'd
/shakes fist
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SolidZeal, you can turn the auto-attack from the Widow Mines off. It would be good if you couldn't, so you would be able to trigger the Mines with Overlords/Overseers, but you can't, they will just turn them on when your Mutas come, so there is no way in engaging one Widow Mine without losing one Mutalisk, and that is 100/100 for 75/25, that is why many people think that it is bad. So, not only you have to play slowly, just not lose Mutalisks for "free", but it will also give Terran enough time to come back with like ~10 Marines and your harass is over, with no loss for Terran player and at least 2 Mutas Lost for Zerg player.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 04 2012 00:40 Ramiz1989 wrote:
SolidZeal, you can turn the auto-attack from the Widow Mines off. It would be good if you couldn't, so you would be able to trigger the Mines with Overlords/Overseers, but you can't, they will just turn them on when your Mutas come, so there is no way in engaging one Widow Mine without losing one Mutalisk, and that is 100/100 for 75/25, that is why many people think that it is bad. So, not only you have to play slowly, just not lose Mutalisks for "free", but it will also give Terran enough time to come back with like ~10 Marines and your harass is over, with no loss for Terran player and at least 2 Mutas Lost for Zerg player.
Dude, if you fly over with Overseer and the mine is off, you can fly in with Mutalisks and kill it. If they turn it on, it will still target the closest unit - the Overseer. You are completely incorrect in your assertion.
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1) Widow mines need to be destroyed upon a single use (i.e. self destruct).
2) It should not be able to hit cloaked units.
3) It should have a weakness against air.
4) It's damage and splash damage should be reduced.
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On December 04 2012 01:23 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 00:40 Ramiz1989 wrote:
SolidZeal, you can turn the auto-attack from the Widow Mines off. It would be good if you couldn't, so you would be able to trigger the Mines with Overlords/Overseers, but you can't, they will just turn them on when your Mutas come, so there is no way in engaging one Widow Mine without losing one Mutalisk, and that is 100/100 for 75/25, that is why many people think that it is bad. So, not only you have to play slowly, just not lose Mutalisks for "free", but it will also give Terran enough time to come back with like ~10 Marines and your harass is over, with no loss for Terran player and at least 2 Mutas Lost for Zerg player. Dude, if you fly over with Overseer and the mine is off, you can fly in with Mutalisks and kill it. If they turn it on, it will still target the closest unit - the Overseer. You are completely incorrect in your assertion.
No it won't target the closes unit, the targeting is random, that is the whole problem...
I've even saw a video(can't remember which one), where 2 Immortals were standing like 1 range from the Mine, and Mine targeted Observer that was like 4 range from the Mine.
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Okay 1 Turret, + 2 Widow Mines, + 1 Vikings can protect one 9 range space. So what? 1 Thor can protect 1 9 range space, and it's more mobile than what you've listed above.
Cost for cost Muta with Magic Box can beat Thor. 1 Turret + 2 WM beat a lot of Muta
Edit: also Viking is not for muta, it's for killing Overlord and Overseer
Yes Bluekatz, a turret and mines + marines or vikings will make mutas unable to harass...then again, so do marines + turrets currently in WoL...so I don't see what you're trying to say there, if the terran is completely prepared for your attack it will not work.
2 WM is a lot cheaper than a bunch of Marines and a lot more effective. Can you defend your 2 bases with 8 marines? No. Sure it's possible vs like 8 muta but what killed muta play that just 1 Turret + 2 WM can shut down infinity amount of muta (ok not exactly infinity, 20 or less actually)
People seem to forget that Muta is not just about harassing it can be a great offensive units too. But if MW can shut it down that easily then there's no reason to use more than 8 muta, which mean no reason to go muta at all. Infestor, SH late game gglord all days
Also what with the misleading information about WM targeting here? You can turn it off and target enemy normally like using Spell, it will only auto target if you use turn the auto on instead.
Also about 4 Overseer quote, I agree with wasting some gases on that, not making 4 Overseers part. (you do want to make at least 2 however) You do want speed actually or Terran just need 1 Viking to kill you or after he gets a big army he can just walk around (some maps are just that bad), it's 2-3 less muta but that's a lot better in long term play (pass 8 muta mark)
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 04 2012 03:05 BlueKatz wrote:Show nested quote +Okay 1 Turret, + 2 Widow Mines, + 1 Vikings can protect one 9 range space. So what? 1 Thor can protect 1 9 range space, and it's more mobile than what you've listed above. Cost for cost Muta with Magic Box can beat Thor. 1 Turret + 2 WM beat a lot of Muta Edit: also Viking is not for muta, it's for killing Overlord and Overseer Show nested quote +Yes Bluekatz, a turret and mines + marines or vikings will make mutas unable to harass...then again, so do marines + turrets currently in WoL...so I don't see what you're trying to say there, if the terran is completely prepared for your attack it will not work. 2 WM is a lot cheaper than a bunch of Marines and a lot more effective. Can you defend your 2 bases with 8 marines? No. Sure it's possible vs like 8 muta but what killed muta play that just 1 Turret + 2 WM can shut down infinity amount of muta (ok not exactly infinity, 20 or less actually) People seem to forget that Muta is not just about harassing it can be a great offensive units too. But if MW can shut it down that easily then there's no reason to use more than 8 muta, which mean no reason to go muta at all. Infestor, SH late game gglord all days Also what with the misleading information about WM targeting here? You can turn it off and target enemy normally like using Spell, it will only auto target if you use turn the auto on instead. Also about 4 Overseer quote, I agree with wasting some gases on that, not making 4 Overseers part. (you do want to make at least 2 however) You do want speed actually or Terran just need 1 Viking to kill you or after he gets a big army he can just walk around (some maps are just that bad), it's 2-3 less muta but that's a lot better in long term play (pass 8 muta mark)
You're just making stuff up now dude. How can I discuss with that? 1 Viking can't shut down an Overseer, not even close. So that entire point you are making about 1 viking 2 widow mine 1 turret shutting down an area is now completely invalid.
1 Turret and 2 widow mines can't defend 20 mutas. that's nonsense.
It's already been addressed why you can't just target a Muta with your Widow Mine - Mutas can kill a widow mine before it gets the chance to attack. It doesn't attack instantly. So you can't just "target a muta" and always trade a mine for a muta.
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^You left the Viking to fend off the Overseers, not to kill it, meanwhile you drop normally to keep muta out. Never say it's needed just something I like to do to force other not to send some muta to snipe WM
1 Turret and 2 widow mines can't defend 20 mutas. that's nonsense.
Oh course it should not be able to hold 20, but surely it can hold less than that
It's already been addressed why you can't just target a Muta with your Widow Mine - Mutas can kill a widow mine before it gets the chance to attack. It doesn't attack instantly. So you can't just "target a muta" and always trade a mine for a muta.
That's why you have more than 1 WM... if you let he get THAT much muta without leaving any at home you are doing it wrong
The more Muta you get the more mine you lay around, but overall it's just not good for muta players. lol I never say (or intended) WM out right kill Muta it's just not very cost effective going muta, that's why we go Infestor instead
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 04 2012 05:05 BlueKatz wrote:^You left the Viking to fend off the Overseers, not to kill it, meanwhile you drop normally to keep muta out. Never say it's needed just something I like to do to force other not to send some muta to snipe WM Oh course it should not be able to hold 20, but surely it can hold less than that Show nested quote +It's already been addressed why you can't just target a Muta with your Widow Mine - Mutas can kill a widow mine before it gets the chance to attack. It doesn't attack instantly. So you can't just "target a muta" and always trade a mine for a muta. That's why you have more than 1 WM... if you let he get THAT much muta without leaving any at home you are doing it wrong The more Muta you get the more mine you lay around, but overall it's just not good for muta players. lol I never say (or intended) WM out right kill Muta it's just not very cost effective going muta, that's why we go Infestor instead
Upload a replay of this being the case, please.
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Sure as long as I can find a Muta zerg player in HotS when playing Terran. I can upload my muta play but then you can just say "oh you just don't do it right" anyways
Edit: send a PM, hopefully I will get to play vs Muta this weekend when I get back
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 04 2012 14:25 BlueKatz wrote:
Sure as long as I can find a Muta zerg player in HotS when playing Terran. I can upload my muta play but then you can just say "oh you just don't do it right" anyways
It gives us some frame of reference to talk about it, it doesn't matter if you are the Terran or Zerg. I can say "oh you didn't do it right" but then I have to follow that up with "you should have done this", and we can see how that would or wouldn't work in a game.
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EPT
