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I'm not really complaining, I'm just wondering if anybody else has been having a real hard time with mutalisks playing against terran since they have gotten widow mines? I have found that they don't even need to build missile turrets anymore, they simply now build enough widow mines to put at each bases and then they just position their marines to prevent mutalisk harrass.
I always found with mutalisk play that you would build 8-10 just to force a reaction out of the terran, he would build missile turrets and if he didn't do so then you could do a little bit of damage. If you didn't do damage, then meh, the terran was forced to do stuff he didn't want to.
However, I have found that the Widow Mine is especially good to stop mutalisk play (In fact, I feel like their is almost zero reason to do it now), and it isn't all that much costly for terran, because they simply use the widow mines later as static defense around their other bases to prevent ling run by lings?
Thoughts? I really feel like mutalisks are becoming more and more useless. As a player who hates infestor play, I usually try to play ling/baneling/muta and am finding it harder to play in ZvT... Especially since Terran are already getting good at playing against it.
Also, this is a bit more off topic, but Widow Mines against cloaked units... I dunno, it's really REALLY getting annoying and almost impossible to do anything gimicky with cloaked stuff. I play random sometimes and when I roll protoss, some terran are building 1-2 widow mines from their non-addon factory and place them randomly in their base. As soon as your observer gets their it's dead, you can't even respond to it.
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And terran complains that we zergs dont make mutalisks anymore. We dont make it because there are so many "anti harassing" units now that its better to just mass infestor turtle into deathball.
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Widow mines cost supply whereas turrets dont. So the terran sacrifices a lot by going mines > turrets.
Keep that in mind and suddenly your mutas are doing their damage by forcing terran to commit supply to strict defense in the form of widow mines at home. ;O
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On December 02 2012 20:51 xSTaRFiSHx wrote:
Widow mines cost supply whereas turrets dont. So the terran sacrifices a lot by going mines > turrets.
Keep that in mind and suddenly your mutas are doing their damage by forcing terran to commit supply to strict defense in the form of widow mines at home. ;O
It is supply that is true, however it's not much supply for the timing in which mutalisks are actually useful (What supply is a terran at when mutalisks hit... something like 70-80). Also the fact that widow mines can be later used to prevent things such as run bys or simply suicided into a mineral line or something along the lines of that, I believe that it's always going to be a good investment.
1 Supply isn't much considering people will often leave 4 units in bunkers next to remote expansions.
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It is pretty clear to everyone (or almost everyone) that mines completely go against blizzard's antideathball ideas. If you want to prevent deathball play you should not introduce units that make harrass very inefficient. Is there a reason why anyone would go mutalisks if he really cared about winning? I kind of doubt it. A widow mine costs 75/25 and it can kill 1 mutalisk+damage some of them... but, Karpfen, why can't I bring an overseer and just snipe it? Well, you still lose 100/100 (of a unit that already requires lair,spire) in order to take down a 75/25 unit. Hey but at least that unit dies even if i haven't got an overseer.. No it doesn't because instead of acting like a mine it decided to act like a heavy missile turret with high power long cooldown shots. Also this renders oracle and banshee very questionable against terran. Obviously i believe that if Blizzard makes the smart choice of removing widow mines they should also make up for it with a unit that doesn't kill harrass..... or Zergs can just go infestor corruptor broodlord more rightfully than before.
Edit: On the usually recurring baneling mine argument: banelings mine can deal a lot of damage to marine based armies. But they are nowhere near widow mines because:
1)the cost of a baneling mine is double the cost of a widow mine (a single baneling kills no one)
2)Banelings need units to effectively walk over them
3)Banelings require the zerg player to activate them manually (this is huge, even in top games often they aren't detonated when they should)
4)The terran army is composed of ranged low cost units which can snipe the mine given they have detection. (raven/scan)
5)A widow mine can do the same damage to a zergling force as 2 banelings to a marine force
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Karpfen summarized it pretty good, however i am still excited about the muta buff. i just find it wierd that they prefere to guff EVERETHING else (faster detection wich is basicly free, muta buff, medivac buff [both only planned yet]) instead of simply changing the widdow mine.
IMO it should either be visable or not attack air (more the 2nd one) but even if everything stays the same i think there is still ways that need trying. for example running a overlord in to tank the mines or sth.
but as karpfen already said, it totally goes against the anti deathball idea!
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Yes this is the most disappointment in HotS so far personally, I really love using Muta in ZvT. No it's not that Terran only need to burrow 2 WM around the base, it's the combination of 1 Turret, 2 WM and 4 Marines that can cover the whole base.
1 Turret + WM will counter the whole harassment process. 1 WM + some marines will protect all addons + Sensor Tower
The only successful way to actually attack the base for me is using Overlord speed/drop and fly them into the base with some ling. But really this will never become a thing because all they need to do is building Sensor Tower or have really good map control or just all in (all in with Hell Bat, WM are very strong vs Muta play)
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On December 02 2012 21:00 Karpfen wrote:
Edit: On the usually recurring baneling mine argument: banelings mine can deal a lot of damage to marine based armies. But they are nowhere near widow mines because:
1)the cost of a baneling mine is double the cost of a widow mine (a single baneling kills no one)
2)Banelings need units to effectively walk over them
3)Banelings require the zerg player to activate them manually (this is huge, even in top games often they aren't detonated when they should)
4)The terran army is composed of ranged low cost units which can snipe the mine given they have detection. (raven/scan)
5)A widow mine can do the same damage to a zergling force as 2 banelings to a marine force
I'll be the last person who claims widow mines are just like banelings, but this list is pretty poor imo.
1) And half the supply cost.
2) True widow mines got range
3) You can simply enable autocast if you like automatic activation
4) And the zerg army is composed of loads of free units which activate them
5) ???
Anyway the problem with widow mines is simply they dont do their intended role, and are only a cheesy/gimmick unit, and early/mid game shutting down harrasment completely (later on you rather got more missile turrets then the supply cost of widow mines). They dont do anything against deathballs, only promote them, and dont help terran later in the game since they are just too easy to kill.
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Last time I went muta in HOTS my first 9 mutas died instantly to a Widow mine 
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On December 02 2012 21:54 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 21:00 Karpfen wrote:
Edit: On the usually recurring baneling mine argument: banelings mine can deal a lot of damage to marine based armies. But they are nowhere near widow mines because:
1)the cost of a baneling mine is double the cost of a widow mine (a single baneling kills no one)
2)Banelings need units to effectively walk over them
3)Banelings require the zerg player to activate them manually (this is huge, even in top games often they aren't detonated when they should)
4)The terran army is composed of ranged low cost units which can snipe the mine given they have detection. (raven/scan)
5)A widow mine can do the same damage to a zergling force as 2 banelings to a marine force
I'll be the last person who claims widow mines are just like banelings, but this list is pretty poor imo. 1) And half the supply cost. 2) True widow mines got range 3) You can simply enable autocast if you like automatic activation 4) And the zerg army is composed of loads of free units which activate them 5) ??? Anyway the problem with widow mines is simply they dont do their intended role, and are only a cheesy/gimmick unit, and early/mid game shutting down harrasment completely (later on you rather got more missile turrets then the supply cost of widow mines). They dont do anything against deathballs, only promote them, and dont help terran later in the game since they are just too easy to kill.
1) you are right
3) this would greatly diminish baneling mine's power. It can obviously be done but having 2 banes dying for a marine going forward is pretty silly. (there is no real reason to enable autocast)
4) but the activation doesn't really kill the mine. Also they can target air (1 shot banshee, prism). Ling run bys will be heavily slowed if you use some forward lings to clear the mines making them not effective at all.
5)¿¿¿
I agree on the rest completely.
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according to liquipedia a widowmine costs 2 supply not 1.
If you build 10 widowmines with a reactored factory,
you will not be able to produce a single offensive unit around 4 minutes.
The other factories will most likely produce tanks and without good hellion/marine
support terran wont attack. The main reason to produce mutalisks was never
to deal significant damage it is to secure additional bases without beeing attacked.
I dont see any real problems with this goal. If widowmine would not be able to defend
a mechplayer vs mutalisk terran would need a good mech-alternativ. Thor isnt really
able to do the job without support.
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On December 02 2012 20:35 blug wrote:
some terran are building 1-2 widow mines from their non-addon factory and place them randomly in their base. As soon as your observer gets their it's dead, you can't even respond to it.
Observer - 11 vision range. Mine - 5 range, has trigger delay.
I don't want to insult you or your feelings, but I must, since this thread is leading lower level players into the wrong conclusion that there is something correct with what you are saying, I must respond, as misinformation is dangerous in the hands of stupid and incompetent people.
1. Mine has 5 range, observer has 11 range. You must be a really bad player to lose your observer to a widow mine. If you do, you deserved to lose it. Lower players, before judging, please think if it wasn't you who could have done something better.
2. Banshees, stalkers and marauders have 6 range. Mine has 5. There is NO way 10 stalkers trade evenly with 10 mines. For that matter of fact, unless you suicide your obs on top of the mines, THEN blink on top of the mines, there is no way to lose anything to mines. While lower level players might lose stalkers to mines, a remotely competent player will clean a cluster of mines with no losses. Don't forget: any remotely competent player will WIN with stalkers without losses vs mines.
3. Mines are just underpowered. A proof for that is that there is no large scale usage in higher leagues, shows how completeley useless they are past minute 7 of the game.
4. Mines don't stop cloaked units harrass. Vs toss no terran would make mines (as they are plain bad), and vs terran many masters and gm terrans including me use banshees with no problem. Banshee has 6 range, if you scan ahead, you can kill the mine, then there is a free mineral line for you. Muta harrass is also not shut down at all, as if you bring an overseer, you can just sack some mutas to the cluster of mines, then destroy the mines and basically just nest on top of his production structures. So the terran still has to make turrets anyway. Don't forget: lower level players will not bring an overseer, will clump their mutas, will fly them into the mine line, will not respond on the first detonation, will fly in more, lose all their mutas. Any remotely competent player will just avoid gthe minefield, kill some stray units, and when and if the mines try to relocate, snipe them.
We don't see mines in late game, cause they are plain bad. I propose an upgrade that gives 2 range to the mine. I also propose incompetent players to stop making threads about balance. Cause of incompetent players making qq threads, that's why we have the current GGfestor and the GGlord, and the SiegeQueen. Think about it. You don't want to be one of the reasons why starcraft is not a good esport, do you?
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lead with an overseer, they tank like two or three mines and let you see them so you know you wont die.... pretty simple solution to be honest. if you dont allow the mines to do damage to important units then the person with the mines will have a weaker army and be in bad shape
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Nash, you do not need 10 widow mines to be safe from muta harassment you need 1 well placed widow mine and 2 turrets per base. And your other aa units + turret can defend your unit producing structures, this is not nearly the investment zerg put into the harassment to begin with. Harassment is a major reason to build mutalisks, not the only reason but one of the main reasons.
You get map control by forcing his units to be in his base to defend from the harassment and killing of counter-harassment by your opponent. This is how your were safe to take expansions as zerg when going for muta. This is now shut-down by widow mines.
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On December 03 2012 00:45 Elldar wrote:
This is now shut-down by widow mines.
No, it is not. The players with the mines can't go out on the map, cause as soon as the zerg understands there are widow mines moving out on the map, he is gonna just make a bunch of lings, lead with an obs, see the mines, send a lone ling, waste the mines charge, then kill the mines. The zerg lost a ling or two, you lost 5 mines. Mines don't allow for map control, unless we are talking about very very low leagues, where I have no idea what goes on.
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On December 03 2012 00:39 madespecifically wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 20:35 blug wrote:
some terran are building 1-2 widow mines from their non-addon factory and place them randomly in their base. As soon as your observer gets their it's dead, you can't even respond to it. Observer - 11 vision range. Mine - 5 range, has trigger delay. I don't want to insult you or your feelings, but I must, since this thread is leading lower level players into the wrong conclusion that there is something correct with what you are saying, I must respond, as misinformation is dangerous in the hands of stupid and incompetent people. 1. Mine has 5 range, observer has 11 range. You must be a really bad player to lose your observer to a widow mine. If you do, you deserved to lose it. Lower players, before judging, please think if it wasn't you who could have done something better. 2. Banshees, stalkers and marauders have 6 range. Mine has 5. There is NO way 10 stalkers trade evenly with 10 mines. For that matter of fact, unless you suicide your obs on top of the mines, THEN blink on top of the mines, there is no way to lose anything to mines. While lower level players might lose stalkers to mines, a remotely competent player will clean a cluster of mines with no losses. Don't forget: any remotely competent player will WIN with stalkers without losses vs mines. 3. Mines are just underpowered. A proof for that is that there is no large scale usage in higher leagues, shows how completeley useless they are past minute 7 of the game. 4. Mines don't stop cloaked units harrass. Vs toss no terran would make mines (as they are plain bad), and vs terran many masters and gm terrans including me use banshees with no problem. Banshee has 6 range, if you scan ahead, you can kill the mine, then there is a free mineral line for you. Muta harrass is also not shut down at all, as if you bring an overseer, you can just sack some mutas to the cluster of mines, then destroy the mines and basically just nest on top of his production structures. So the terran still has to make turrets anyway. Don't forget: lower level players will not bring an overseer, will clump their mutas, will fly them into the mine line, will not respond on the first detonation, will fly in more, lose all their mutas. Any remotely competent player will just avoid gthe minefield, kill some stray units, and when and if the mines try to relocate, snipe them. We don't see mines in late game, cause they are plain bad. I propose an upgrade that gives 2 range to the mine. I also propose incompetent players to stop making threads about balance. Cause of incompetent players making qq threads, that's why we have the current GGfestor and the GGlord, and the SiegeQueen. Think about it. You don't want to be one of the reasons why starcraft is not a good esport, do you?
It was unnecessary the way you posted that, and I get a great feeling that you play terran and are very biased. I am a mid masters casual zerg, when I talk about Observers and such I obviously don't have 100% knowledge on that, I just said it to hear opinions on it, but when I talk about Zerg I feel like I have an idea what I am talking about.
When I build mutalisks, I have the intention to force my opponent to react with missile turrets and also to gain a bit of map control if they are using hellions. However, the widow mine is cancelling out the need to be as vigorous with missile placement. This is bad, simply because the widow mines can be used later on, whether or not they are used strategically on the map to assist with preventing run bys and burrowed unit play.
When you put a widow mine down at a base, obviously a good zerg should assume that they are located around the map, and if I go mutalisks, I'm going to do harrass and lose a mutalisk. That is a trade no good Zerg is willing to make, overseer or not, especially since mutalisk attack range is so small and can't out range the mine.
Also, you 100% lost your credibility as soon as you started talking about the gglord bull crap. I'm not one to say it isn't overpowered, but even in my initial post I said that I try to avoid using infestors. Also, many would consider mutalisk play to be balanced, if not, underpowered since terrans have worked out how to beat it so well now. This is by no means qq, this is me talking about Mutalisks and keeping them viable in ZvT. It will make the ZvT matchup more dynamic rather than a tunnel visioned mode getting from hatchery tech to infestors into broodlords.
Also, you talk as if these so called pro players can deal with widow mines easily. That simply isn't the case, I'm not going to use my credentials as a mid master and say I am near the level of the pros because I'm not. However, I do watch a shit load of streams and I see how pros utilize their APM. When a Zerg does a run by into a terrans command center, they don't even watch their lings half the time. If anything, a widow mine is just going to force the zerg to have to be more micro intensive to avoid dying. When is it ever a bad thing to force your opponent to have better multi tasking skills in a matchup at a smallish cost?
It seems very narrow minded calling something such as the Widow Mine underpowered just because it doesn't kill a whole flock of mutalisks if they fly into one. If I lose 1 mutalisk out of 8 and the rest get damaged... as a Zerg player I feel like my harrass has been weakened significantly.
I have seen them used late game on streams, they obviously don't kill armies on their own but they serve their purpose in late game. If they suck so much and you want more mech units, then go sack them... The same way Zerg sack their roaches when they want more of your so called ggLords.
Stop saying "Higher Leagues" as if they are that high and mighty. SC2's very foundation is based on trying to make your opponent make small mistakes and the Widow Mine assists you with this. Even if the widow mines don't do direct damage, they will do indirect damage because they will force the opposing player to focus more APM on the mines in which they could of been using it else where.
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On December 03 2012 00:45 AndreiDaGiant wrote:
lead with an overseer, they tank like two or three mines and let you see them so you know you wont die.... pretty simple solution to be honest. if you dont allow the mines to do damage to important units then the person with the mines will have a weaker army and be in bad shape
They tank two. But regardless, this is pretty effective, especially since Terrans that use widow mines to defend tend to think only two mines with no additional AA is enough to stop all mutas.
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On December 03 2012 01:45 blug wrote: I am a mid masters casual zerg, when I talk about Observers and such I obviously don't have 100% knowledge on that, I just said it to hear opinions on it, but when I talk about Zerg I feel like I have an idea what I am talking about.
Then don't talk about the toss side of things.
On December 03 2012 01:45 blug wrote:
When a Zerg does a run by into a terrans command center, they don't even watch their lings half the time.
On December 03 2012 01:45 blug wrote:
It seems very narrow minded calling something such as the Widow Mine underpowered just because it doesn't kill a whole flock of mutalisks if they fly into one. If I lose 1 mutalisk out of 8 and the rest get damaged... as a Zerg player I feel like my harrass has been weakened significantly.
And when I lose to medivacs to 3 infestors, without the possibility to move them, from a 9 range insta cast spell, I feel somebody at Blizzard isn't doing their work right.
On December 03 2012 01:45 blug wrote:
Even if the widow mines don't do direct damage, they will do indirect damage because they will force the opposing player to focus more APM on the mines in which they could of been using it else where
Basically now zerg can't only a move and that is a bad thing cause you can't handle it? Looking at the current state of balance in WOL, I would think it would be nice for a change if zerg players tried to micro for the win instead of just a moving into siege lines.
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On December 03 2012 02:02 madespecifically wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 01:45 blug wrote: I am a mid masters casual zerg, when I talk about Observers and such I obviously don't have 100% knowledge on that, I just said it to hear opinions on it, but when I talk about Zerg I feel like I have an idea what I am talking about.
Then don't talk about the toss side of things. Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 01:45 blug wrote:
When a Zerg does a run by into a terrans command center, they don't even watch their lings half the time.
Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 01:45 blug wrote:
It seems very narrow minded calling something such as the Widow Mine underpowered just because it doesn't kill a whole flock of mutalisks if they fly into one. If I lose 1 mutalisk out of 8 and the rest get damaged... as a Zerg player I feel like my harrass has been weakened significantly.
And when I lose to medivacs to 3 infestors, without the possibility to move them, from a 9 range insta cast spell, I feel somebody at Blizzard isn't doing their work right. Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 01:45 blug wrote:
Even if the widow mines don't do direct damage, they will do indirect damage because they will force the opposing player to focus more APM on the mines in which they could of been using it else where
Basically now zerg can't only a move and that is a bad thing cause you can't handle it? Looking at the current state of balance in WOL, I would think it would be nice for a change if zerg players tried to micro for the win instead of just a moving into siege lines.
Ok, for some reason you keep bringing up infestors. I have no idea why, this has nothing to do infestors. I even agreed that infestors are OP.
You also defend the current widow mines by talking about Zerg not having to A-Move anymore... That's exactly what the widow mine does! It stops it so that Zerg can't A-Move with Ling harrass so good job defending the Widow Mine (Even though you have consistently talked about how bad it is).
Also, stop talking as if Terran don't A-Walk their drops. Even QXC admits that when he does drops he just shift clicks them and doesn't focus on them to much. Zerg Micro against Terran isn't just A-Walk btw, I've played random quite a bit, and when I get Terran the micro is more involved, but a lot of it is mindless micro. Doing the stuff which people like Stephano does can't be done by any normal player, it's not easy.
Yes, I do agree I shouldn't be talking about toss, I just mentioned other scenarios where the widow mine can be useful.
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Don't widow mines deal splash damage to friendly units? If so they would be a terrible choice to guard mineral lines i guess.
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On December 02 2012 20:36 phodacbiet wrote:
And terran complains that we zergs dont make mutalisks anymore. We dont make it because there are so many "anti harassing" units now that its better to just mass infestor turtle into deathball.
Since when do terrans complain that? Im 100% win rate vs non mutalisks im just sick of zergs going muta and getting easy wins
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On December 03 2012 00:39 madespecifically wrote:
4. Mines don't stop cloaked units harrass. Vs toss no terran would make mines (as they are plain bad), and vs terran many masters and gm terrans including me use banshees with no problem. Banshee has 6 range, if you scan ahead, you can kill the mine, then there is a free mineral line for you. Muta harrass is also not shut down at all, as if you bring an overseer, you can just sack some mutas to the cluster of mines, then destroy the mines and basically just nest on top of his production structures. So the terran still has to make turrets anyway. Don't forget: lower level players will not bring an overseer, will clump their mutas, will fly them into the mine line, will not respond on the first detonation, will fly in more, lose all their mutas. Any remotely competent player will just avoid gthe minefield, kill some stray units, and when and if the mines try to relocate, snipe them.
saccing a 100/100 muta for one 75/25 mine, are you serious? and then i suppose the terran will just leave their scvs there for me to take out after i carefully cleared those mines.
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Widow mines are pretty broken. Countering all the harass units is not great.
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On December 03 2012 02:33 a176 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 00:39 madespecifically wrote:
4. Mines don't stop cloaked units harrass. Vs toss no terran would make mines (as they are plain bad), and vs terran many masters and gm terrans including me use banshees with no problem. Banshee has 6 range, if you scan ahead, you can kill the mine, then there is a free mineral line for you. Muta harrass is also not shut down at all, as if you bring an overseer, you can just sack some mutas to the cluster of mines, then destroy the mines and basically just nest on top of his production structures. So the terran still has to make turrets anyway. Don't forget: lower level players will not bring an overseer, will clump their mutas, will fly them into the mine line, will not respond on the first detonation, will fly in more, lose all their mutas. Any remotely competent player will just avoid gthe minefield, kill some stray units, and when and if the mines try to relocate, snipe them.
saccing a 100/100 muta for one 75/25 mine, are you serious? and then i suppose the terran will just leave their scvs there for me to take out after i carefully cleared those mines.
Nobody is making you go into the mineral line if you don't want to. Kill some addons, leave. It gives you map control, what mutas are supposed to do. They are not supposed to win you the game. Besides, if you tank the first mine hit with the overseer, you will kill the mine for free. It requires micro? Boo hoo, it's about time something of zerg started requiring micro.
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On December 03 2012 02:39 madespecifically wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 02:33 a176 wrote:On December 03 2012 00:39 madespecifically wrote:
4. Mines don't stop cloaked units harrass. Vs toss no terran would make mines (as they are plain bad), and vs terran many masters and gm terrans including me use banshees with no problem. Banshee has 6 range, if you scan ahead, you can kill the mine, then there is a free mineral line for you. Muta harrass is also not shut down at all, as if you bring an overseer, you can just sack some mutas to the cluster of mines, then destroy the mines and basically just nest on top of his production structures. So the terran still has to make turrets anyway. Don't forget: lower level players will not bring an overseer, will clump their mutas, will fly them into the mine line, will not respond on the first detonation, will fly in more, lose all their mutas. Any remotely competent player will just avoid gthe minefield, kill some stray units, and when and if the mines try to relocate, snipe them.
saccing a 100/100 muta for one 75/25 mine, are you serious? and then i suppose the terran will just leave their scvs there for me to take out after i carefully cleared those mines. Nobody is making you go into the mineral line if you don't want to. Kill some addons, leave. It gives you map control, what mutas are supposed to do. They are not supposed to win you the game. Besides, if you tank the first mine hit with the overseer, you will kill the mine for free. It requires micro? Boo hoo, it's about time something of zerg started requiring micro.
Arrogant terran player is arrogant. Why don't you go play Zerg and do the stuff Stephano does which no other Zerg can do.
Other than that, 800 minerals and 800 gas for 8 mutalisks. That's a big price to pay for map control... You have to do some damage to justify their cost. You can't kill addons if the Terran has half a brain and positions his marines correctly.
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On December 03 2012 02:45 blug wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 02:39 madespecifically wrote:On December 03 2012 02:33 a176 wrote:On December 03 2012 00:39 madespecifically wrote:
4. Mines don't stop cloaked units harrass. Vs toss no terran would make mines (as they are plain bad), and vs terran many masters and gm terrans including me use banshees with no problem. Banshee has 6 range, if you scan ahead, you can kill the mine, then there is a free mineral line for you. Muta harrass is also not shut down at all, as if you bring an overseer, you can just sack some mutas to the cluster of mines, then destroy the mines and basically just nest on top of his production structures. So the terran still has to make turrets anyway. Don't forget: lower level players will not bring an overseer, will clump their mutas, will fly them into the mine line, will not respond on the first detonation, will fly in more, lose all their mutas. Any remotely competent player will just avoid gthe minefield, kill some stray units, and when and if the mines try to relocate, snipe them.
saccing a 100/100 muta for one 75/25 mine, are you serious? and then i suppose the terran will just leave their scvs there for me to take out after i carefully cleared those mines. Nobody is making you go into the mineral line if you don't want to. Kill some addons, leave. It gives you map control, what mutas are supposed to do. They are not supposed to win you the game. Besides, if you tank the first mine hit with the overseer, you will kill the mine for free. It requires micro? Boo hoo, it's about time something of zerg started requiring micro. Arrogant terran player is arrogant. Why don't you go play Zerg and do the stuff Stephano does which no other Zerg can do. Other than that, 800 minerals and 800 gas for 8 mutalisks. That's a big price to pay for map control... You have to do some damage to justify their cost. You can't kill addons if the Terran has half a brain and positions his marines correctly.
Or positions his widow mines, correctly. There is no way to take out a widow mine cost efficiently with mutas, and that's what this thread is about.
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On December 03 2012 03:10 Grendel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 02:45 blug wrote:On December 03 2012 02:39 madespecifically wrote:On December 03 2012 02:33 a176 wrote:On December 03 2012 00:39 madespecifically wrote:
4. Mines don't stop cloaked units harrass. Vs toss no terran would make mines (as they are plain bad), and vs terran many masters and gm terrans including me use banshees with no problem. Banshee has 6 range, if you scan ahead, you can kill the mine, then there is a free mineral line for you. Muta harrass is also not shut down at all, as if you bring an overseer, you can just sack some mutas to the cluster of mines, then destroy the mines and basically just nest on top of his production structures. So the terran still has to make turrets anyway. Don't forget: lower level players will not bring an overseer, will clump their mutas, will fly them into the mine line, will not respond on the first detonation, will fly in more, lose all their mutas. Any remotely competent player will just avoid gthe minefield, kill some stray units, and when and if the mines try to relocate, snipe them.
saccing a 100/100 muta for one 75/25 mine, are you serious? and then i suppose the terran will just leave their scvs there for me to take out after i carefully cleared those mines. Nobody is making you go into the mineral line if you don't want to. Kill some addons, leave. It gives you map control, what mutas are supposed to do. They are not supposed to win you the game. Besides, if you tank the first mine hit with the overseer, you will kill the mine for free. It requires micro? Boo hoo, it's about time something of zerg started requiring micro. Arrogant terran player is arrogant. Why don't you go play Zerg and do the stuff Stephano does which no other Zerg can do. Other than that, 800 minerals and 800 gas for 8 mutalisks. That's a big price to pay for map control... You have to do some damage to justify their cost. You can't kill addons if the Terran has half a brain and positions his marines correctly. Or positions his widow mines, correctly. There is no way to take out a widow mine cost efficiently with mutas, and that's what this thread is about.
OK, let's make the thread about hellions vs roaches then, cause hellions can't seem to cost efficiently kill roaches. Or make a thread about marauders being bad vs muta ling. Why is this thread even made?
You can consult a guide seeing which units are good vs which, if you don't know. The 4 hellion contain is also a huge investment in resources and time (as you could be making tanks instead). We wanted them to do damage as well, but now with the siegequeen they can't even deny creep tumors without taking damage. 800/800 is a good price for map control in semi late game. You also can deny drops, and snipe stray units. So, excuse me, but the mutas do damage to the terran at the very time they pop out:
he can't drop safely
he can't move out on the map safely with medivacs, cause of ling muta
he can't leave his base without making widow mines or turrets or both
he can't send lines of units as mutas will snipe them
Tell me how that isn't justifying the 800/800 investment? This thread is bogus and has to be closed. I am tired of seeing threads where an incompetent player creates a problem out of thin air, then ponders how to solve it, while in fact he is the one with inadequate skill and perception.
Dude: Mutas SHOULD not beat widow mines. The widow mines are supposed to defend stuff in your base, just like mutas are supposed to be for map control, sniping drops and killing stray units or undefended addons. If you want to throw your mutas into a meatgrinder, that is your problem, but don't create a problem out of something just cause you play stupidly.
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On December 03 2012 00:39 madespecifically wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 20:35 blug wrote:
some terran are building 1-2 widow mines from their non-addon factory and place them randomly in their base. As soon as your observer gets their it's dead, you can't even respond to it. Observer - 11 vision range. Mine - 5 range, has trigger delay. I don't want to insult you or your feelings, but I must, since this thread is leading lower level players into the wrong conclusion that there is something correct with what you are saying, I must respond, as misinformation is dangerous in the hands of stupid and incompetent people. 1. Mine has 5 range, observer has 11 range. You must be a really bad player to lose your observer to a widow mine. If you do, you deserved to lose it. Lower players, before judging, please think if it wasn't you who could have done something better. 2. Banshees, stalkers and marauders have 6 range. Mine has 5. There is NO way 10 stalkers trade evenly with 10 mines. For that matter of fact, unless you suicide your obs on top of the mines, THEN blink on top of the mines, there is no way to lose anything to mines. While lower level players might lose stalkers to mines, a remotely competent player will clean a cluster of mines with no losses. Don't forget: any remotely competent player will WIN with stalkers without losses vs mines. 3. Mines are just underpowered. A proof for that is that there is no large scale usage in higher leagues, shows how completeley useless they are past minute 7 of the game. 4. Mines don't stop cloaked units harrass. Vs toss no terran would make mines (as they are plain bad), and vs terran many masters and gm terrans including me use banshees with no problem. Banshee has 6 range, if you scan ahead, you can kill the mine, then there is a free mineral line for you. Muta harrass is also not shut down at all, as if you bring an overseer, you can just sack some mutas to the cluster of mines, then destroy the mines and basically just nest on top of his production structures. So the terran still has to make turrets anyway. Don't forget: lower level players will not bring an overseer, will clump their mutas, will fly them into the mine line, will not respond on the first detonation, will fly in more, lose all their mutas. Any remotely competent player will just avoid gthe minefield, kill some stray units, and when and if the mines try to relocate, snipe them. We don't see mines in late game, cause they are plain bad. I propose an upgrade that gives 2 range to the mine. I also propose incompetent players to stop making threads about balance. Cause of incompetent players making qq threads, that's why we have the current GGfestor and the GGlord, and the SiegeQueen. Think about it. You don't want to be one of the reasons why starcraft is not a good esport, do you?
god i want to upvote this guy
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Problem is less than 50% of zergs go mutas in WOL then terran gets a new unit thats crazy good vs mutas. Why ever go mutas zvt anymore?
Something some people might not know is if you get near a mine then run out within 0.5 sec of its attack animation, you can see where the mine is without getting hit. It becomes temporarily visible then invisible again after you are out of its attack range. Try it out.
This trick still doesn't make mutas good vs mines. You can never trade well vs mines you have to avoid them, and mines can move and are useful vs lings and banelings in real fights.
Muta are pretty dead zvt in hots until something changes :/
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Yup OP I stopped going mutalisks thanks to widow rockets. They just aren't viable in hots vs good terrans who abuse the widow rockets AA. Don't have to place them in mineral lines just in spaces that mutas would HAVE to fly over to do harass and it's just yeah. Really bad idea to go mutalisks vs terran now thanks to the widows.
On December 03 2012 02:19 Scholera wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 20:36 phodacbiet wrote:
And terran complains that we zergs dont make mutalisks anymore. We dont make it because there are so many "anti harassing" units now that its better to just mass infestor turtle into deathball. Since when do terrans complain that? Im 100% win rate vs non mutalisks im just sick of zergs going muta and getting easy wins
Wow didn't realize terrans still struggled vs mutas :o.
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On December 03 2012 02:39 madespecifically wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 02:33 a176 wrote:On December 03 2012 00:39 madespecifically wrote:
4. Mines don't stop cloaked units harrass. Vs toss no terran would make mines (as they are plain bad), and vs terran many masters and gm terrans including me use banshees with no problem. Banshee has 6 range, if you scan ahead, you can kill the mine, then there is a free mineral line for you. Muta harrass is also not shut down at all, as if you bring an overseer, you can just sack some mutas to the cluster of mines, then destroy the mines and basically just nest on top of his production structures. So the terran still has to make turrets anyway. Don't forget: lower level players will not bring an overseer, will clump their mutas, will fly them into the mine line, will not respond on the first detonation, will fly in more, lose all their mutas. Any remotely competent player will just avoid gthe minefield, kill some stray units, and when and if the mines try to relocate, snipe them.
saccing a 100/100 muta for one 75/25 mine, are you serious? and then i suppose the terran will just leave their scvs there for me to take out after i carefully cleared those mines. Nobody is making you go into the mineral line if you don't want to. Kill some addons, leave. It gives you map control, what mutas are supposed to do. They are not supposed to win you the game. Besides, if you tank the first mine hit with the overseer, you will kill the mine for free. It requires micro? Boo hoo, it's about time something of zerg started requiring micro.
I sincerely doubt your claim of being really good at the game if you can make an error this colossal while also making mindless balance whine.
"Nobody is making you go into the mineral line if you don't want to. Kill some addons, leave. It gives you map control, what mutas are supposed to do. They are not supposed to win you the game."
In a normal game, mutas go for whatever they can, which is usually not much, like addons, as you mentioned. However, that doesn't really do anything except force the terran to spend a few apm and remind him that you have mutas. Negligible damage.
What really matters is, as you said, the map control. They NEED to be able to win you the game. You NEED that threat to actually have the map control. If you can't threaten him with horrific damage, you don't have map control and you lose the game, unless you're at the point in the game where you've got a backup plan.
Fairly significant oversight on your part.
Next, bringing along overseers (that's right, plural, you'll be needing quite a few of the fat gas sinks) to counter mines is pretty bad for the muta player. They can only tank one hit and there may be several mines in random places, which forces you to take your overseers everywhere with your mutas which SEVERELY slows down your harass. So, you'll need many overseers just to account for the possibility of randomly placed mines which causes you to use a lot of gas, reducing your muta count. Also, since the overseers will be needed to be dragged along with your mutas, your muta harass will be slowed down so much as to become next to useless.
Finally, only the best of the best of the best actually pays that much attention to their harass (there are obvious exceptions, like mutalisk harass, so I won't bother outlining those). Forcing players to constantly pay attention to every move into terran turf is going to severely discourage harass, which is also very bad. I mean, think about all the places you could randomly drop widow mines and instantly destroy harass. You could do it on drop paths, random places in your base, mineral lines, chokes and every single one of these potential mine positions will need to be accounted for with mobile detection accompanying EVERY drop and army.
In the end, muta play is already suboptimal, and, although widow mines are not that good currently, when Blizzard gets them to where they want them, it'll fuck shit up to an absurd degree and put an end to something a lot of people enjoy very much.
Also, wtf is with your rage about no zerg micro? We're talking about muta play, which is pretty well known for the micro required, and even standard, boring infestor play is really micro intensive and requires constant minimap awareness if you're going to do it well.
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I prefer getting Turrets against Mutas. Mines are nice, but a good Zerg player will clean them without losses. Also the Area you have to cover as Terran is huge. You would need around 30 supply of mines, just to stop 20 supply of mutas. Was going Muta play for testing purpose. They do just fine, but you have to babysit them more. I like that they got harder to use. Compared to other forms of harassment/map control Mutas have been fairly easy to use.
Maybe the missile of the Widow mine should work like the Thors 250mm. If you leave the range before the animation is done, the spell gets canceled. That way people that pay attention, can see the red dot (if it would become visible) and fly out of range before the Mine launches.
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On December 03 2012 02:39 madespecifically wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 02:33 a176 wrote:On December 03 2012 00:39 madespecifically wrote:
4. Mines don't stop cloaked units harrass. Vs toss no terran would make mines (as they are plain bad), and vs terran many masters and gm terrans including me use banshees with no problem. Banshee has 6 range, if you scan ahead, you can kill the mine, then there is a free mineral line for you. Muta harrass is also not shut down at all, as if you bring an overseer, you can just sack some mutas to the cluster of mines, then destroy the mines and basically just nest on top of his production structures. So the terran still has to make turrets anyway. Don't forget: lower level players will not bring an overseer, will clump their mutas, will fly them into the mine line, will not respond on the first detonation, will fly in more, lose all their mutas. Any remotely competent player will just avoid gthe minefield, kill some stray units, and when and if the mines try to relocate, snipe them.
saccing a 100/100 muta for one 75/25 mine, are you serious? and then i suppose the terran will just leave their scvs there for me to take out after i carefully cleared those mines. Nobody is making you go into the mineral line if you don't want to. Kill some addons, leave. It gives you map control, what mutas are supposed to do. They are not supposed to win you the game. Besides, if you tank the first mine hit with the overseer, you will kill the mine for free. It requires micro? Boo hoo, it's about time something of zerg started requiring micro.
Are you serious? You clearly have no idea about what you are talking about, and mixed with the shameless balance whine it makes your post that more ignorant and useless.
On December 03 2012 05:26 FeyFey wrote:
I prefer getting Turrets against Mutas. Mines are nice, but a good Zerg player will clean them without losses. Also the Area you have to cover as Terran is huge. You would need around 30 supply of mines, just to stop 20 supply of mutas. Was going Muta play for testing purpose. They do just fine, but you have to babysit them more. I like that they got harder to use. Compared to other forms of harassment/map control Mutas have been fairly easy to use.
Maybe the missile of the Widow mine should work like the Thors 250mm. If you leave the range before the animation is done, the spell gets canceled. That way people that pay attention, can see the red dot (if it would become visible) and fly out of range before the Mine launches.
I like that idea a lot, it keeps the mine as it is, it rewards the zerg player that is paying attention, and still zones the mutas out requiring some sort of micro/sacrifice to kill the mine.
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On December 03 2012 05:17 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
Finally, only the best of the best of the best actually pays that much attention to their harass (there are obvious exceptions, like mutalisk harass, so I won't bother outlining those). Forcing players to constantly pay attention to every move into terran turf is going to severely discourage harass, which is also very bad. I mean, think about all the places you could randomly drop widow mines and instantly destroy harass. You could do it on drop paths, random places in your base, mineral lines, chokes and every single one of these potential mine positions will need to be accounted for with mobile detection accompanying EVERY drop and army.
Finally, only the best of the best of the best actually pays that much attention to their harass (there are obvious exceptions, like <dropship> harass, so I won't bother outlining those). Forcing players to constantly pay attention to every move into <zerg> turf is going to severely discourage harass, which is also very bad as <zerg is economically ahead anyway>. I mean, think about all the places you could randomly <place an infestordrop> instantly destroy harass. You could do it on drop paths, random places in your base, mineral lines, chokes and every single one of these potential infestor positions will need to be accounted for with a scan before dropping anywhere in zerg turf. Add to that the fact zerg sees the whole map due to rocket lords and tumors and lings and creep, and fungal is insta cast and 9 range, of course, it discourages playing with small groups of units harrassing, cause a single infestor will shut them down.
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On December 03 2012 05:26 FeyFey wrote:
I prefer getting Turrets against Mutas. Mines are nice, but a good Zerg player will clean them without losses. Also the Area you have to cover as Terran is huge. You would need around 30 supply of mines, just to stop 20 supply of mutas. Was going Muta play for testing purpose. They do just fine, but you have to babysit them more. I like that they got harder to use. Compared to other forms of harassment/map control Mutas have been fairly easy to use.
Maybe the missile of the Widow mine should work like the Thors 250mm. If you leave the range before the animation is done, the spell gets canceled. That way people that pay attention, can see the red dot (if it would become visible) and fly out of range before the Mine launches.
You don't need 30 supply of mines lol 
The widow mine doesn't fire if you run out of its range quick enough. They go visible temporarily right before they fire. If you run in and out theyll go visible then invisible as you leave their attack radius. So your mutas wont get hit by mines if you're watching but widow mine+turret combo is amazingly cost effective vs mutas. Its just not worth it to go mutas most of the time.
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On December 03 2012 05:26 FeyFey wrote:
I prefer getting Turrets against Mutas. Mines are nice, but a good Zerg player will clean them without losses. Also the Area you have to cover as Terran is huge. You would need around 30 supply of mines, just to stop 20 supply of mutas. Was going Muta play for testing purpose. They do just fine, but you have to babysit them more. I like that they got harder to use. Compared to other forms of harassment/map control Mutas have been fairly easy to use.
Maybe the missile of the Widow mine should work like the Thors 250mm. If you leave the range before the animation is done, the spell gets canceled. That way people that pay attention, can see the red dot (if it would become visible) and fly out of range before the Mine launches.
i prefer mines for a variety of reasons. they act more like mobile turrets like a spore crawler. they have shorter range than a turret but they do much more damage thanks to splash. and thanks to that damage and splash, any number of marines or thor(s) can easily clean up the remaining mutas. and mines dont become useless mineral sinks if the zerg makes a tech switch to ground units.
they are 2 supply yes, but total food investment depends on how you're playing. i mean, will a zerg be put off from even going muta if you show them mines early? so you don't have to sink food into them. or even if you do keep going widow mines, they have so many uses to block expos, slow down zerg armies by having them devote apm and sheer time and effot to clear them.
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On December 03 2012 05:37 TheGreenMachine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 05:26 FeyFey wrote:
I prefer getting Turrets against Mutas. Mines are nice, but a good Zerg player will clean them without losses. Also the Area you have to cover as Terran is huge. You would need around 30 supply of mines, just to stop 20 supply of mutas. Was going Muta play for testing purpose. They do just fine, but you have to babysit them more. I like that they got harder to use. Compared to other forms of harassment/map control Mutas have been fairly easy to use.
Maybe the missile of the Widow mine should work like the Thors 250mm. If you leave the range before the animation is done, the spell gets canceled. That way people that pay attention, can see the red dot (if it would become visible) and fly out of range before the Mine launches. You don't need 30 supply of mines lol The widow mine doesn't fire if you run out of its range quick enough. They go visible temporarily right before they fire. If you run in and out theyll go visible then invisible as you leave their attack radius. So your mutas wont get hit by mines if you're watching but widow mine+turret combo is amazingly cost effective vs mutas. Its just not worth it to go mutas most of the time.
they do fire beyond their range. i've nuked many a worker thanks to that.
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On December 03 2012 05:29 madespecifically wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 05:17 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
Finally, only the best of the best of the best actually pays that much attention to their harass (there are obvious exceptions, like mutalisk harass, so I won't bother outlining those). Forcing players to constantly pay attention to every move into terran turf is going to severely discourage harass, which is also very bad. I mean, think about all the places you could randomly drop widow mines and instantly destroy harass. You could do it on drop paths, random places in your base, mineral lines, chokes and every single one of these potential mine positions will need to be accounted for with mobile detection accompanying EVERY drop and army.
Finally, only the best of the best of the best actually pays that much attention to their harass (there are obvious exceptions, like <dropship> harass, so I won't bother outlining those). Forcing players to constantly pay attention to every move into <zerg> turf is going to severely discourage harass, which is also very bad as <zerg is economically ahead anyway>. I mean, think about all the places you could randomly <place an infestordrop> instantly destroy harass. You could do it on drop paths, random places in your base, mineral lines, chokes and every single one of these potential infestor positions will need to be accounted for with a scan before dropping anywhere in zerg turf. Add to that the fact zerg sees the whole map due to rocket lords and tumors and lings and creep, and fungal is insta cast and 9 range, of course, it discourages playing with small groups of units harrassing, cause a single infestor will shut them down.
Ok then. A drop walks into an infestor, the zerg has to 1: notice the drop (harder than it sounds) and 2: either nab it in dead space (again, harder than it sounds) or have backup as the terran will have time to deploy the drop.
A drop walks into a mine, BOOM. The end. Also, mobile detection needs to accompany the drop, as infestors can be seen, and mines cannot.
Also, a LOT of terran pros, even some Korean ones, will actually just shift click their drop into the zerg base. So
(there are obvious exceptions, like <dropship> harass, so I won't bother outlining those)
is an invalid jab.
Forcing players to constantly pay attention to every move into <zerg> turf
Every race has pretty powerful drop defense. Zerg more so, of course, but it isn't in the realm of complete madness. Any drop that walks into waiting units will die, whether those units are zerglings, infestors, stalkers or marines. However, none of those units are completely invisible, and only one of them even comes close to the widow mine's ability to instantly destroy drops and cripple harass.
As for paying attention to your army, well, if you aren't paying attention to your army, you deserve to lose.
which is also very bad as <zerg is economically ahead anyway>
more balance whining
I mean, think about all the places you could randomly <place an infestordrop> instantly destroy harass. You could do it on drop paths, random places in your base, mineral lines, chokes
Placing an infestor with zergling backup in the middle of the map is decently sized investment and can be spotted beforehand and thus dodged, whereas burrowing the odd mine or two isn't a significant investment and necessitates mobile detection.
Add to that the fact zerg sees the whole map due to rocket lords and tumors and lings and creep, and fungal is insta cast and 9 range, of course, it discourages playing with small groups of units harrassing, cause a single infestor will shut them down.
Zerg vision has been getting out of hand as of late due to zerg's increased defenses, and yes, fungal growth is OP, but really, at this point in your post you've just gone into full balance whine mode. I've also already covered what I would say in this section in my previous sections, so no need to repeat myself here.
I find it interesting that you just decided to focus on that one section, and refute it in an extremely offensive manner. Maybe you could provide reasoning that is 1: less emotional and aggressive and 2: has less holes in it.
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If you take out auto cast, this balances the game so much. You can put the warhound back in (with a slight nerf), it makes swarm hosts require skill, and just makes a lot of think requre more attention.
And personally, this is better. I have been turning off auto cast widow mine attack, so running 1 ling doesn't set it off.
With swarm hosts, it also allows u to stagar them, so you are always being attacked
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On December 03 2012 05:51 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
I find it interesting that you just decided to focus on that one section, and refute it in an extremely offensive manner.t.
Widow mines are not op, not hard to deal with, and are plain bad.
That is why they are not used in big numbers, as any reasonable terran won't make more than 5 or 6 of them as they are a huge investment which most of the time doesn't pay off. Thus, I suggest an upgrade to their range, so that they can be useful in late game as well, or in offensive play, or vs toss, as stalkers collosi just ignore widow mines. Roaches also can't be stopped by mines, and mines are uber useless against swarm hosts.
So, excuse me, but I am not gonna sit there while a clueless zerg makes a thread how he can't use mutas against widow mines, while I just lost 2 games in a row vs gm zergs that just go muta overseer and demolished me, as twice I had too little but the widow mines.
I will repeat it again: if the OP is incompetent and unwilling to change his playstyle around the new unit, it is his problem. Cloaked harrass, mutas, ling runbys, everything is still viable, just it requires a teeny bit more skill. Skill, which the OP doesn't seem to want to acquire, so is quick on the qq bandwagon. Of course, cause of incompetent people like the OP (Idra) and their incessive QQ-ing, we have the current zerg as it is.
Inability to play smartly and learn from your mistakes should not be an excuse to create crappy threads crying for balance. I believe this thread should be closed, as it may leave other incompetent players with the impression that there is any truth in what the OP says. And there is not. It is just a not so cleverly disguised QQ thread. I will summarize it to you:
The OP is QQ-ing cause widow mines for defense make muta play less easy on the zerg. He exaggerates that to a point where he presents it in such a way that any forms of harrass are not possible due to the widow mine. The problem with his statement is that he acts surprised that a defensive unit does what it is supposed to do: give you defense. An overseer has 11 range, you don't even have to fly him in to spot the mine fields, just avoid them, kill a stray unit, then leave. It is so easy, so elegant.
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On December 02 2012 21:17 gCgCrypto wrote:
Karpfen summarized it pretty good, however i am still excited about the muta buff. i just find it wierd that they prefere to guff EVERETHING else (faster detection wich is basicly free, muta buff, medivac buff [both only planned yet]) instead of simply changing the widdow mine.
IMO it should either be visable or not attack air (more the 2nd one) but even if everything stays the same i think there is still ways that need trying. for example running a overlord in to tank the mines or sth.
but as karpfen already said, it totally goes against the anti deathball idea!
We always give shit to Blizzard because instead of taking the philosophy of buffing everything (a la Broodwar, supposedly), they nerf everything.
Maybe leaving Widow Mine very powerful is a good idea, if they can buff everything else. Obviously this would be a bad idea for the balanced WoL (where you want to do very few changes at a time, or balance goes completely out of whack), but I want to see Blizz take as many risks as possible in designing HotS
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On December 03 2012 06:58 TheRealPaciFist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 21:17 gCgCrypto wrote:
Karpfen summarized it pretty good, however i am still excited about the muta buff. i just find it wierd that they prefere to guff EVERETHING else (faster detection wich is basicly free, muta buff, medivac buff [both only planned yet]) instead of simply changing the widdow mine.
IMO it should either be visable or not attack air (more the 2nd one) but even if everything stays the same i think there is still ways that need trying. for example running a overlord in to tank the mines or sth.
but as karpfen already said, it totally goes against the anti deathball idea! We always give shit to Blizzard because instead of taking the philosophy of buffing everything (a la Broodwar, supposedly), they nerf everything. Maybe leaving Widow Mine very powerful is a good idea, if they can buff everything else. Obviously this would be a bad idea for the balanced WoL (where you want to do very few changes at a time, or balance goes completely out of whack), but I want to see Blizz take as many risks as possible in designing HotS
The thing is.. The widow mine ISN'T very good. Though, it's good at the things it isn't even designed to do. Sniping stray observers which are flying over and deterring mutas. But other than those it's not in the best spot yet. I'd like to see it even better, but having a more specified role instead of being average in most jobs.
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On December 03 2012 06:40 madespecifically wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 05:51 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
I find it interesting that you just decided to focus on that one section, and refute it in an extremely offensive manner.t. Widow mines are not op, not hard to deal with, and are plain bad. That is why they are not used in big numbers, as any reasonable terran won't make more than 5 or 6 of them as they are a huge investment which most of the time doesn't pay off. Thus, I suggest an upgrade to their range, so that they can be useful in late game as well, or in offensive play, or vs toss, as stalkers collosi just ignore widow mines. Roaches also can't be stopped by mines, and mines are uber useless against swarm hosts. So, excuse me, but I am not gonna sit there while a clueless zerg makes a thread how he can't use mutas against widow mines, while I just lost 2 games in a row vs gm zergs that just go muta overseer and demolished me, as twice I had too little but the widow mines. I will repeat it again: if the OP is incompetent and unwilling to change his playstyle around the new unit, it is his problem. Cloaked harrass, mutas, ling runbys, everything is still viable, just it requires a teeny bit more skill. Skill, which the OP doesn't seem to want to acquire, so is quick on the qq bandwagon. Of course, cause of incompetent people like the OP (Idra) and their incessive QQ-ing, we have the current zerg as it is. Inability to play smartly and learn from your mistakes should not be an excuse to create crappy threads crying for balance. I believe this thread should be closed, as it may leave other incompetent players with the impression that there is any truth in what the OP says. And there is not. It is just a not so cleverly disguised QQ thread. I will summarize it to you: The OP is QQ-ing cause widow mines for defense make muta play less easy on the zerg. He exaggerates that to a point where he presents it in such a way that any forms of harrass are not possible due to the widow mine. The problem with his statement is that he acts surprised that a defensive unit does what it is supposed to do: give you defense. An overseer has 11 range, you don't even have to fly him in to spot the mine fields, just avoid them, kill a stray unit, then leave. It is so easy, so elegant.
First of all, I agree with everything you say. Mines take very little effort to clear out, but they do take effort, and anyone unwilling to snap out of the WOL mindset will struggle. You can't play the way you always did. You cannot. That doesn't make the unit bad, wrong, imbalanced, it just means you have to adapt.
Now on to the most interesting part of the discussion: despite the fact that Mines don't do a single thing that units like Infestors aren't capable of already... we want the Infestors redesigned, don't we? We don't want them to be able to single-handedly shut down harass and be a potent fighting force. So why are we OK with it on the Widow Mine? My guess is precisely because it is underperforming in combat. And if we got it to perform adequately in combat, the way it has to if it's going to make mech viable, would its versatility still still be OK? My guess is no.
I've been on the Mine's side for ages because I love the idea of this kind of hopscotch positional play, but is a simple number tweak going to make this unit really fit in? I'm starting to think that if it was going to, if the problem was that simple, Blizzard would have done it already.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
OP, to be perfectly honest, it sounds like you just think it isn't fair you have to multitask more than you used to. It is very possible to harass with Mutas still against Widow Mines with Overseers, if you have good enough micro/multitask. It can slow it down if you rely on one Overseer, but if you just use two in each position you want to harass the Terran then you are golden. Also, Overseers can tank 1 Widow Mine shot for you, so there is some leeway. If you make <10 Mutalisks, you will have to use Overseers to tank those Widow MIne shots because your Mutas won't be able to snipe them before they detonate. If you make 10 or more, then you are golden, they can 1 shot them before the mine can detonate and you can clean them up for no cost at all. Not to mention Mines cover less range than turrets. Not just the 1 less default range, but Widow Mines take a few seconds to activate, so it's very easy to bounce in and out of range of them if for some reason you needed to.
You must understand, Blizzard specifically said they are trying to introduce more multitasking for the other races, and not as much for Terran. Draw whatever conclusions you want about what that says of the races as they are in WoL, it doesn't matter. That's what their goal is and I think most would agree that's pretty fair.
All that said, they are entertaining giving a buff to Mutalisks to which I totally agree with, because I do feel Mutalisks could be better with still being balanced, and they are a very interesting play style to watch usually (mass muta/spine vs Protoss was kinda lame IMO). But saying the Widow Mine should be changed or removed because it forces the opponent to micro more - and that's essentially all it does vs Mutas (maybe force them to make 50-100 gas in Overseers) - is really, really lame IMO. Widow Mines promote more micro for the Muta'ing player, and then we can buff Mutalisks to make them more rewarding to a player who can micro really well.
That's such a better design philosophy than the one your ideas imply.
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On December 03 2012 08:40 ZjiublingZ wrote:
OP, to be perfectly honest, it sounds like you just think it isn't fair you have to multitask more than you used to. It is very possible to harass with Mutas still against Widow Mines with Overseers, if you have good enough micro/multitask. It can slow it down if you rely on one Overseer, but if you just use two in each position you want to harass the Terran then you are golden. Also, Overseers can tank 1 Widow Mine shot for you, so there is some leeway. If you make <10 Mutalisks, you will have to use Overseers to tank those Widow MIne shots because your Mutas won't be able to snipe them before they detonate. If you make 10 or more, then you are golden, they can 1 shot them before the mine can detonate and you can clean them up for no cost at all. Not to mention Mines cover less range than turrets. Not just the 1 less default range, but Widow Mines take a few seconds to activate, so it's very easy to bounce in and out of range of them if for some reason you needed to.
You must understand, Blizzard specifically said they are trying to introduce more multitasking for the other races, and not as much for Terran. Draw whatever conclusions you want about what that says of the races as they are in WoL, it doesn't matter. That's what their goal is and I think most would agree that's pretty fair.
All that said, they are entertaining giving a buff to Mutalisks to which I totally agree with, because I do feel Mutalisks could be better with still being balanced, and they are a very interesting play style to watch usually (mass muta/spine vs Protoss was kinda lame IMO). But saying the Widow Mine should be changed or removed because it forces the opponent to micro more - and that's essentially all it does vs Mutas (maybe force them to make 50-100 gas in Overseers) - is really, really lame IMO. Widow Mines promote more micro for the Muta'ing player, and then we can buff Mutalisks to make them more rewarding to a player who can micro really well.
That's such a better design philosophy than the one your ideas imply.
While you explained things perfectly, buffing muta will break ZvP. Besides, if you are using muta, you dont NEED to do damage in his base directly. In the time of muta ling bling we saw zerg players not do any damage with their mutas and still be ahead economically (cause mutas give you a lot of map control, so you can drone like a madman), and in army. Widow mine does force the zerg player to do a bit more micro and pick his fights more carefully, and it is a shame that the OP finds it that hard to micro a bit more that he felt he needed to make a QQ thread in TL.
What I am saying is such threads are dangerous, as they are full of half - truths, distorted by the prism of zerg bias and impotent, uninspired way. I bet if you make more than 10 mutas, and if you go on a mineral line with an overseer, you would see the weak points, decide whether it is worth to sack mutas and on what angle, and do a lot better than expected. Cause no terran gonna just like put 6 widow mines on his mineral line in one place. He is gonna have 2 mines maybe on one side, two mines on the middle, two mines on the other side. What stops you then as zerg to destroy his buildings? Or kill one side of the mineral line, then just nest there and prevent scv's from mining? Or go to his expo? What's he gonna have there? 6 more mines? Please, I haven't seen more than 6 mines being made in a game, and the reason is cause they are a defensive unit, and quite a weak at that.
The OP should try to improve his play and be a bit more creative when approaching this game, not create useless threads that are balance whine bait for incompetent players.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 03 2012 08:59 madespecifically wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 08:40 ZjiublingZ wrote:
OP, to be perfectly honest, it sounds like you just think it isn't fair you have to multitask more than you used to. It is very possible to harass with Mutas still against Widow Mines with Overseers, if you have good enough micro/multitask. It can slow it down if you rely on one Overseer, but if you just use two in each position you want to harass the Terran then you are golden. Also, Overseers can tank 1 Widow Mine shot for you, so there is some leeway. If you make <10 Mutalisks, you will have to use Overseers to tank those Widow MIne shots because your Mutas won't be able to snipe them before they detonate. If you make 10 or more, then you are golden, they can 1 shot them before the mine can detonate and you can clean them up for no cost at all. Not to mention Mines cover less range than turrets. Not just the 1 less default range, but Widow Mines take a few seconds to activate, so it's very easy to bounce in and out of range of them if for some reason you needed to.
You must understand, Blizzard specifically said they are trying to introduce more multitasking for the other races, and not as much for Terran. Draw whatever conclusions you want about what that says of the races as they are in WoL, it doesn't matter. That's what their goal is and I think most would agree that's pretty fair.
All that said, they are entertaining giving a buff to Mutalisks to which I totally agree with, because I do feel Mutalisks could be better with still being balanced, and they are a very interesting play style to watch usually (mass muta/spine vs Protoss was kinda lame IMO). But saying the Widow Mine should be changed or removed because it forces the opponent to micro more - and that's essentially all it does vs Mutas (maybe force them to make 50-100 gas in Overseers) - is really, really lame IMO. Widow Mines promote more micro for the Muta'ing player, and then we can buff Mutalisks to make them more rewarding to a player who can micro really well.
That's such a better design philosophy than the one your ideas imply. While you explained things perfectly, buffing muta will break ZvP. Besides, if you are using muta, you dont NEED to do damage in his base directly. In the time of muta ling bling we saw zerg players not do any damage with their mutas and still be ahead economically (cause mutas give you a lot of map control, so you can drone like a madman), and in army. Widow mine does force the zerg player to do a bit more micro and pick his fights more carefully, and it is a shame that the OP finds it that hard to micro a bit more that he felt he needed to make a QQ thread in TL. What I am saying is such threads are dangerous, as they are full of half - truths, distorted by the prism of zerg bias and impotent, uninspired way. I bet if you make more than 10 mutas, and if you go on a mineral line with an overseer, you would see the weak points, decide whether it is worth to sack mutas and on what angle, and do a lot better than expected. Cause no terran gonna just like put 6 widow mines on his mineral line in one place. He is gonna have 2 mines maybe on one side, two mines on the middle, two mines on the other side. What stops you then as zerg to destroy his buildings? Or kill one side of the mineral line, then just nest there and prevent scv's from mining? Or go to his expo? What's he gonna have there? 6 more mines? Please, I haven't seen more than 6 mines being made in a game, and the reason is cause they are a defensive unit, and quite a weak at that. The OP should try to improve his play and be a bit more creative when approaching this game, not create useless threads that are balance whine bait for incompetent players.
Protoss got a small buff against Infestors with the MSC. Both in Purify and Recall, great spells to help against Mutas. While I agree that is the most vulnerable race to Mutalisks, a small buff to Mutalisks like what Blizz was talking (speed or acceleration) definitely wouldn't automatically break Protoss. Nobody could predict that accurately.
Also, if Blizz follow through with the idea they entertained on EU's forums - making Hydras and Mutas the Zerg mid-game and nerfing Infestors. Then Protoss could perhaps open more anti-muta oriented, making them even weaker.
It's really naive to think you can say a small buff to Mutas would break ZvP confidently. It's something to look out for, but that's it.
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I think they should make widow mines have to get an armory, or engineering bay upgrade to be able to hit air. Yes it's true that zerg can play around WM with an overseer, but the effort and investment for terran is much lower than for zerg, it makes going muta a much less effective strategy in TvZ and that is a damn shame from both a player perspective and from a pro spectator perspective.
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I think you guys are being trolled a bit. You have a 9 post wonder called "madespecifically" who joined today and has made all 9 posts specifically on the widow mine.
A quick scan of his posts brings a sense of deja vu (link).
On December 03 2012 00:39 madespecifically wrote:
...this thread is leading lower level players into the wrong conclusion that there is something correct with what you are saying, I must respond, as misinformation is dangerous in the hands of stupid and incompetent people.
A quick scan of his posts brings a sense of deja vu (link).
On December 03 2012 00:49 madespecifically wrote:
Threads like this are dangerous, since they can lead incompetent players into believing there is truth in what you are saying.
It fact, the deja vu is so disorientating that even he isn't sure if he is proposing an idea:
On December 03 2012 00:39 madespecifically wrote:
I propose an upgrade that gives 2 range to the mine.
or agreeing with it:
On December 03 2012 00:49 madespecifically wrote:
I can agree that late game mine is very weak: so I really like the +2 range upgrade you suggested.
I suggest you stop arguing with the sock puppet and wait for the puppetmaster to show up and fight his own battles.
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honestly, widow mines are the reason I'm not currently playing the beta. they are ridiculous and I'm not playing until they get a nerf :-/. they just are not fun to play against
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On December 03 2012 10:16 SixtusTheFifth wrote:I think you guys are being trolled a bit. You have a 9 post wonder called "madespecifically" who joined today and has made all 9 posts specifically on the widow mine. A quick scan of his posts brings a sense of deja vu (link). Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 00:39 madespecifically wrote:
...this thread is leading lower level players into the wrong conclusion that there is something correct with what you are saying, I must respond, as misinformation is dangerous in the hands of stupid and incompetent people. A quick scan of his posts brings a sense of deja vu (link). Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 00:49 madespecifically wrote:
Threads like this are dangerous, since they can lead incompetent players into believing there is truth in what you are saying.
It fact, the deja vu is so disorientating that even he isn't sure if he is proposing an idea: Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 00:39 madespecifically wrote:
I propose an upgrade that gives 2 range to the mine. or agreeing with it: Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 00:49 madespecifically wrote:
I can agree that late game mine is very weak: so I really like the +2 range upgrade you suggested. I suggest you stop arguing with the sock puppet and wait for the puppetmaster to show up and fight his own battles.
Yeah, I'm assuming that they might be trolls, I don't think anybody could be that dumb. Which kind of saddens me because I would like someone who actually knows what they are talking about to say why mutalisks aren't useless.
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@madespecifically I'm 99% certain you're a troll
I agree with the OP, widow mines seem to effectively shutdown mutalisk harass, to the point where it isn't even viable. Honestly, I don't understand why they decided to allow them to shoot up. The only air units I can think of them hitting potentially would be mutas, phoenixes, maybe oracles, banshees, or dropships. Since mutas are the only ones of these that even clump, I can't imagine that it was meant to take out anything else. Besides, didn't terran have enough effective *tier one high dps high move speed* anti air already?
I think that this will get changed soon.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
Do all you bitching about Widow Mines stopping Muta harass not understand that Mutas can take out Widow Mines when they are detected, before they detonate? They can even bounce back and forth between attacks if you have decent micro...
Where the hell are you all getting the idea that "widow mines seem to effectively shutdown mutalisk harass"???
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On December 03 2012 13:30 admi_n wrote:
@madespecifically I'm 99% certain you're a troll
I agree with the OP, widow mines seem to effectively shutdown mutalisk harass, to the point where it isn't even viable. Honestly, I don't understand why they decided to allow them to shoot up. The only air units I can think of them hitting potentially would be mutas, phoenixes, maybe oracles, banshees, or dropships. Since mutas are the only ones of these that even clump, I can't imagine that it was meant to take out anything else. Besides, didn't terran have enough effective *tier one high dps high move speed* anti air already?
I think that this will get changed soon.
Yeah lol, they hit air, cloak, and ground. Kind of an all in 1 combo xD
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On December 03 2012 13:48 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Do all you bitching about Widow Mines stopping Muta harass not understand that Mutas can take out Widow Mines when they are detected, before they detonate? They can even bounce back and forth between attacks if you have decent micro...
Where the hell are you all getting the idea that "widow mines seem to effectively shutdown mutalisk harass"???
what? how can 3 range mutas snipe a 5 range mine?
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On December 03 2012 13:48 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Do all you bitching about Widow Mines stopping Muta harass not understand that Mutas can take out Widow Mines when they are detected, before they detonate? They can even bounce back and forth between attacks if you have decent micro...
Where the hell are you all getting the idea that "widow mines seem to effectively shutdown mutalisk harass"???
The fact that you need an overseer to mutalisk harrass a terran now is kind of against the point of mutalisks. Mutalisks are supposed to be a fast moving unit that in return does weak damage, costs lots of gas, and dies really quickly. The fact you need an overseer is taking that mobility away from Mutalisks, and considering people are already starting to hit the Infestor band wagon, people aren't using Mutalisks nearly as much as they used to. Making things harder for a mutalisk user isn't going to help the case at all.
As it currently stands, a Terran who plays half decent can defend against scouted mutalisk harrass with ease, with very little attentiveness devoted to it. The Widow Mine just adds icing to the cake which I don't think is necessary.
Also, unless your have 10+ mutalisks, that isn't true about a mutalisk being able to kill a widow mine before it blows up. If the Zerg was getting 10+ mutalisks, I would be putting down 2 widows mines at each bases instead.
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For terran players who actually have problem vs muta with WM:
Just build 1 Turret in Mineral line and build 2 WM right under it (or 2 steps away). Build 1 more Turret in main base if you like.
Keep 1 WM in between every 2 bases to prevent Muta to kill add on instead if needed and burrow it where muta normally fly between bases.
Keep 4 marines around natural if you like (if you go Bio then it's not needed at all since you will pump Marines like crazy) or 1 Viking to prevent Overseer (I like to make 1 Viking to do some overlord hunt and prevent them from preventing me from taking m 3rd)
Build a fucking Sensor Tower. Don't build your building in retarded places you can't protect them
Finally put all of your defensive mines on hotkeys (like 0) and disable all of them. When muta attack the Turret enable them all with the hotkey.
Surely you still can get some muta to force 2 turrets and prevent some drops but Infestor are so much better vs drop now and you will die so much easier vs timing (Mine + Hell Bat kill Muta Bling Ling painfully easy, SH and Infestor can do something vs this luckily).
Bringing Overseer is a joke, sure you will need it but it's slow as snail compare to muta and any half decent player can spot that thing. Again just have 1 Viking around the edge.
Maybe things will be a little easier if Speed Overseers are faster
The option to "mass muta" is gone now, which imo, was a very cool play. You force the terran to guess if you go for high tech or mass muta. If he be a bit too greedy and decide to get a late game army you can crush him with 3 bases, but if you stay Muta he can crush you with his far superior army. So much more fun than late game play meta lately imo.
Yes you can snipe Mine with 10+ muta but that's why 1 Turret + 2 WM is necessary.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 03 2012 13:58 a176 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 13:48 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Do all you bitching about Widow Mines stopping Muta harass not understand that Mutas can take out Widow Mines when they are detected, before they detonate? They can even bounce back and forth between attacks if you have decent micro...
Where the hell are you all getting the idea that "widow mines seem to effectively shutdown mutalisk harass"??? what? how can 3 range mutas snipe a 5 range mine?
Do you even have the Beta? They take time to activate. You can do this tactic with many units against Widow Mines.
Anyone who thinks they are OP, I'm sorry, but you just need to micro better. These units are good defensively pre-mobile detection, they are good against drops. They have very little use afterwards.
If you can't handle keeping an Overseer with your Muta pack, that sucks. It's really not that hard though. My zerg off-race is probably Diamond and I have had no struggles against Widow Mines when going Mutas, except for when I fucked up.
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Can people still go brofestor spy squad? Or does WM shut down that play?
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On December 03 2012 14:28 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 13:58 a176 wrote:On December 03 2012 13:48 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Do all you bitching about Widow Mines stopping Muta harass not understand that Mutas can take out Widow Mines when they are detected, before they detonate? They can even bounce back and forth between attacks if you have decent micro...
Where the hell are you all getting the idea that "widow mines seem to effectively shutdown mutalisk harass"??? what? how can 3 range mutas snipe a 5 range mine? Do you even have the Beta? They take time to activate. You can do this tactic with many units against Widow Mines. Anyone who thinks they are OP, I'm sorry, but you just need to micro better. These units are good defensively pre-mobile detection, they are good against drops. They have very little use afterwards. If you can't handle keeping an Overseer with your Muta pack, that sucks. It's really not that hard though. My zerg off-race is probably Diamond and I have had no struggles against Widow Mines when going Mutas, except for when I fucked up.
An overseer fyi is slower then mutas a lot slower, getting the overlord upgrade it's still quiet a bit slower can you honestly say muta harass is even remotely good with the widow rocket the way it is now? I mean you did say you were diamond so that kinda proves to me you don't really know how vital muta speed in general is.
Mutas are a great harassment unit because they are fast and can hit multiple areas in a fast time frame. Add an overseer and it's like harassing with slow mutas because you would have to make sure overseers are always in front and everything. How you can honestly believe what you say just kinda blows my mind, but then again being diamond does make it hard to really judge how vital this is at high level play.
Hard to harass if you have to have the overseer with you and it doesn't take much for the widow rocket to kill the overseer and again stop harassment. The way the widow is designed right now makes muta play not viable if the terran player is good and uses them correctly, you don't even need a lot of them. Just a few and then mutas can't go into a base and do harassment because again with how slow overseers are you wouldn't get any damage done.
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On December 03 2012 08:59 madespecifically wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 08:40 ZjiublingZ wrote:
OP, to be perfectly honest, it sounds like you just think it isn't fair you have to multitask more than you used to. It is very possible to harass with Mutas still against Widow Mines with Overseers, if you have good enough micro/multitask. It can slow it down if you rely on one Overseer, but if you just use two in each position you want to harass the Terran then you are golden. Also, Overseers can tank 1 Widow Mine shot for you, so there is some leeway. If you make <10 Mutalisks, you will have to use Overseers to tank those Widow MIne shots because your Mutas won't be able to snipe them before they detonate. If you make 10 or more, then you are golden, they can 1 shot them before the mine can detonate and you can clean them up for no cost at all. Not to mention Mines cover less range than turrets. Not just the 1 less default range, but Widow Mines take a few seconds to activate, so it's very easy to bounce in and out of range of them if for some reason you needed to.
You must understand, Blizzard specifically said they are trying to introduce more multitasking for the other races, and not as much for Terran. Draw whatever conclusions you want about what that says of the races as they are in WoL, it doesn't matter. That's what their goal is and I think most would agree that's pretty fair.
All that said, they are entertaining giving a buff to Mutalisks to which I totally agree with, because I do feel Mutalisks could be better with still being balanced, and they are a very interesting play style to watch usually (mass muta/spine vs Protoss was kinda lame IMO). But saying the Widow Mine should be changed or removed because it forces the opponent to micro more - and that's essentially all it does vs Mutas (maybe force them to make 50-100 gas in Overseers) - is really, really lame IMO. Widow Mines promote more micro for the Muta'ing player, and then we can buff Mutalisks to make them more rewarding to a player who can micro really well.
That's such a better design philosophy than the one your ideas imply. While you explained things perfectly, buffing muta will break ZvP.
Not only that. Yesterday I was feeling retarded, so went air with terran against zerg who went muta. Which doesnt work in any conceivable way since zerg air is twice as strong as terran air (before tier 3). (Vikings might be considered equal to mutas, but then you also need something that can shoot down, so you need to mix in banshees, which means you have fewer vikings and zerg air is way stronger). So then I wonder, do mutas really need to be buffed? If the issue is widow mines, nerf widow mines (in the anti-muta role). Or lets face it, completely redesign widow mines to do their intended roles instead of their current early/mid game anti-harrasment + some gimmick stuff.
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I'm starting to come around to WM hitting air not being such a bad thing. I don't have the beta, so I didn't know about the delay, other than I think I've noticed it on streams. It is to say, that 1 widow mine can't screw over a zerg if he plays well. Spot it with an overseer, charge in and kill it before it can activate, start killing scvs. If they have too many WM in 1 place, then don't go in, is that so bad?
You can also use the overseer to tank 1 hit if they have 2 mines.
In response to Blade555's argument that to make muta harass dependent on overseer spotting will negate mutas primary advantage (speed): I think you're being over dramatic on what this does to muta play. Yes, it will raise the skill cap on muta harass, but is that bad? I also don't think it's too much to ask for 2 overseers, 1 where you're hitting now, and one where you want to hit next.
At the same time, I really don't think core unit design dissuading zerg from going muta is good for the game at all, this turtle into infestor/BL style is crap and makes me want to walk away from the game.
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I think you could fly in an overlord before you send the mutas since the OV's don't die to the mines. It does make mutalisk play much harder though and I would like to see the play style buffed to further reward muta retention in the later game.
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Bear in mind everyone is struggling to win, regardless of league or race. It's only natural to feel miffed when something (such as muta harassment) you've been using to cling to that win-rate becomes massively more difficult to execute for what feels like a negligible cost on your opponent's part. He spends 75/25 (or indeed nothing at all; I have no way of knowing) and now I need to invest overseers and (realistically) overlord speed just in case he bothered to build a mine and hide it somewhere. My gut reaction to that is: I can only just make muta harassment pay for itself against the calibre of opponents I'm facing in WoL. In HotS it's going to be entirely beyond me. So I won't bother.
I keep coming back to what I said a while ago: if Zerg had been given WidowBanes in HotS, there would have been a tidal wave of QQ that would have swept the internet away like a sandcastle. Yet here we are talking about how, in the Terran army, they're not worth building. I don't know how to make that fit inside my head.
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On December 03 2012 18:15 SolidZeal wrote:
I'm starting to come around to WM hitting air not being such a bad thing. I don't have the beta, so I didn't know about the delay, other than I think I've noticed it on streams. It is to say, that 1 widow mine can't screw over a zerg if he plays well. Spot it with an overseer, charge in and kill it before it can activate, start killing scvs. If they have too many WM in 1 place, then don't go in, is that so bad?
You can also use the overseer to tank 1 hit if they have 2 mines.
In response to Blade555's argument that to make muta harass dependent on overseer spotting will negate mutas primary advantage (speed): I think you're being over dramatic on what this does to muta play. Yes, it will raise the skill cap on muta harass, but is that bad? I also don't think it's too much to ask for 2 overseers, 1 where you're hitting now, and one where you want to hit next.
At the same time, I really don't think core unit design dissuading zerg from going muta is good for the game at all, this turtle into infestor/BL style is crap and makes me want to walk away from the game.
how does waiting for a slowass overseer increase the skill? everytime you move above ground you will have to move in overseerspeed because for 25 gas terrans will start burrowing 4-6 mines over the whole map to get lucky hits (before they are maxed out of course) and blizzards idea to fix mutas vs mines is to give mutas faster speed...so...they can now move in...overseerspeed. lol. nice thinking ^^
i dont even get why terran say the mine is bad (its bad in lategame but in early game and midgame vs strats like mutas its awesome). in wol mutas were already hard to play and now you have to invest 100 gas in ovispeed, morph 2-3 extra overseer, have to move in overseerspeed and even if you see the mines they trade 25 gas for 100 gas. like wtf is going on in terrans minds that they say mutas are fine right now? they were fine in WoL and even there they were figured out and you never ever saw mass ling bling muta in the last year or so (only 8-13 mutas and transition into infestor). and now they are effectively a lot slower, you have less of them and cant trade effectively with mines...
remove the retarded single target damage that makes the mine instaeffective vs mutas, DTs, banshees and dropships. you always trade 25 for 100-125 even if the opponent plays PERFECT. like literally its always effective vs these units so they wont be played because these units HAVE TO do damage since they suck in straight up fights. so if you see the mine but cant fight it effectively and therefore do no damage its not worth building DTs, banshees, mutas or go for drops.
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On December 03 2012 19:02 Decendos wrote:
how does waiting for a slowass overseer increase the skill?
It doesn't just take skill, it takes tactical awareness. I'm saying that when you send overlords over to his side of the map early game, you morph them into overseers before you head towards his base with the mutas. Where the skill comes in is that you need to poke in with your overseer seconds before you move in with your mutas. Then, you need to scout out safe movement paths with your seer before you send your mutas just anywhere in his base. This will be harder to control than normal muta harass.
There is a powerful psychological factor with widow mines, even more so than baneling mines imo, because of the range. I think this is getting to you. There is a feeling that mines are everywhere, but really there not. This is especially true once you get into his base with mutas. If terran was going mech and is counting on that 1-2 widow mines per mineral line to keep him safe, and you kill them quickly and efficiently, then he's going to take massive damage. Unless of course, he has a thor on the way, but most likely he's working on tanks and hellions. It's hard to use mines to stop the harassment once you're in, because you can kill them as they try to burrow.
WM are really powerful, but they have some serious limitation that make me think they'll never really be OP. I watched a really awesome TvT where Dragon was using WM as his only anti-air, It worked great as they killed 2 banshees for free. Painful for the guy who sent them, but really it was his fault for not scanning before charging in. Anyway, his 3rd banshee did get in. What followed was a really awesome micro battle, wherever the widow mines couldn't reach, the banshee was killing workers, the few marines Dragon had, and he even killed a few mines. Dragon was able to "surround" it with 3 mines and kill it, but it did show how mines have limitations and can make some awesome micro situations.
If you are worried about mines being "all over the map" then run singleton lings around to find out where they are, then clean them up.
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so the balanced mutaharrass is now a lot weaker: 100 gas for ovispeed, 200 for overseers = 3 less mutas. so instead of the initial 8-11 you get 5-8. and they move slower...a lot slower...AND cant attack even if they scout the mine. so basically what you say the perfectly balanced mutaplay in wol got nerfed incredibly through the WM is fine? no one says the WM is OP. the problem is that the WM completely shuts down a strategy path of the zerg. why would you ever go mutas if they were balanced in wol and in HOTS nothing changes for the zerg side if you go muta but the WM makes them a lot worse. there is simply absolutely 0 reason for zerg to go muta again. none.
same thing goes for banshee play. the banshee is at least able to kill the mines because it outranges them, BUT (and this is a huge one): if you go banshee you NEED to do damage = kill some worker to be even. if you now have to scan everytime you try to kill worker...well guess what, thats one less mule for every scan so no terran will ever go banshee opening again because in wol you had to kill 5-8 worker to make the banshee pay for itself and now you lose mules so you would have to kill even more worker. it doesnt matter that dragon tried to go WM only. but even with mech you got some marines, go mines and add 1 turret per base and the banshee player will be so far behind that no one will ever go banshee again in TvT.
again: WM is not OP but it shuts down a lot of different, fun to use, a lot of skill needing strategies and force the player to go into a techpath. if they would cost 100 gas each and force a player into that techpath it would be fine. but the VERY cheap mines completely negating a lot of strategies is a bad thing. the mine is just too good vs everything which is the reason it is 2 supply which is the reason it sucks lategame.
so making it less good vs air and cloak harrass while buffing their lategame usage (less supply) and antiground usage (more splash damage and/or more range) would make the mine and the whole game a lot better since harrassment is one of the best parts of the game. macro for 20 min and 1 huge deathball fight is what the mine in its current state accomplishes which is really really bad.
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Anyone who thinks they are OP, I'm sorry, but you just need to micro better
What the heck? You can snipe Mine just by A move how's that 'require micro'?
The problem is 1 Turret + 1/2 WM with auto disabled pair with 1 Viking or some marines can shut down the whole muta play, tell me how do you break that? Normally Terran is always in fear of mass muta breaking in and destroy all turrets and kill all marines, thats why Terran have to drop to force Zerg away.
so the balanced mutaharrass is now a lot weaker: 100 gas for ovispeed, 200 for overseers = 3 less mutas. so instead of the initial 8-11 you get 5-8. and they move slower...a lot slower...AND cant attack even if they scout the mine
This exactly. It's not like you can't sacrifice Muta, but the twist is:
1/ You can't sacrifice 1 Muta because good players will keep all Defensive WM on hotkey with Auto off and Turret will kill 1 Muta easier
2/ Muta costs 100 Min 100 Gas. Mine costs 75 Min 25 Gas. Even if the mine can kill 1 Muta it's already cost effective
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 03 2012 22:26 BlueKatz wrote:What the heck? You can snipe Mine just by A move how's that 'require micro'? The problem is 1 Turret + 1/2 WM with auto disabled pair with 1 Viking or some marines can shut down the whole muta play, tell me how do you break that? Normally Terran is always in fear of mass muta breaking in and destroy all turrets and kill all marines, thats why Terran have to drop to force Zerg away. Show nested quote +so the balanced mutaharrass is now a lot weaker: 100 gas for ovispeed, 200 for overseers = 3 less mutas. so instead of the initial 8-11 you get 5-8. and they move slower...a lot slower...AND cant attack even if they scout the mine This exactly. It's not like you can't sacrifice Muta, but the twist is: 1/ You can't sacrifice 1 Muta because good players will keep all Defensive WM on hotkey with Auto off and Turret will kill 1 Muta easier 2/ Muta costs 100 Min 100 Gas. Mine costs 75 Min 25 Gas. Even if the mine can kill 1 Muta it's already cost effective
Okay 1 Turret, + 2 Widow Mines, + 1 Vikings can protect one 9 range space. So what? 1 Thor can protect 1 9 range space, and it's more mobile than what you've listed above. If you force the Terran to have this combination of defenses in multiple places your Mutas have done more than enough damage. These units couldn't even fully protect the main base themselves, you would need more than that.
Okay 100 gas for speed and 200 gas for 4 Overseers? Why do you need 4 of them? If you just make 2 and put them in two different sides of the Terran, you can be not slowed down by them and send them in ahead of your mutas to spot for widow mines. You don't even need the speed on Overseers, because they don't have to follow your mutas around at all times.
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On December 03 2012 12:10 blug wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 10:16 SixtusTheFifth wrote:I think you guys are being trolled a bit. You have a 9 post wonder called "madespecifically" who joined today and has made all 9 posts specifically on the widow mine. A quick scan of his posts brings a sense of deja vu (link). On December 03 2012 00:39 madespecifically wrote:
...this thread is leading lower level players into the wrong conclusion that there is something correct with what you are saying, I must respond, as misinformation is dangerous in the hands of stupid and incompetent people. A quick scan of his posts brings a sense of deja vu (link). On December 03 2012 00:49 madespecifically wrote:
Threads like this are dangerous, since they can lead incompetent players into believing there is truth in what you are saying.
It fact, the deja vu is so disorientating that even he isn't sure if he is proposing an idea: On December 03 2012 00:39 madespecifically wrote:
I propose an upgrade that gives 2 range to the mine. or agreeing with it: On December 03 2012 00:49 madespecifically wrote:
I can agree that late game mine is very weak: so I really like the +2 range upgrade you suggested. I suggest you stop arguing with the sock puppet and wait for the puppetmaster to show up and fight his own battles. Yeah, I'm assuming that they might be trolls, I don't think anybody could be that dumb. Which kind of saddens me because I would like someone who actually knows what they are talking about to say why mutalisks aren't useless.
That guy is DestinationLiquid, the guy from this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384532¤tpage=3
His arguments are the same as the one from that thread, he got banned for insulting every Zerg on the planet because they "a-click" and have no clue how to micro, and every valid argument me, Decendos and Umpteen gave to him, he just changed the subject and stared talking about the Infestors and how they are OP. Looking at his comments from this thread, I am 100% positive that that guy is him, arguments are basically the same, he even said in this thread the same thing what he said in that thread, and that is that nobody is using more than 5-6 Widow Mines and that unit is bad.
I feel bad for him, I mean you guys think that he is a troll, but actually it seems that he really believes in what he is saying.
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Yes Bluekatz, a turret and mines + marines or vikings will make mutas unable to harass...then again, so do marines + turrets currently in WoL...so I don't see what you're trying to say there, if the terran is completely prepared for your attack it will not work.
1. I really think you'll only need 2 overseers, not 4 so more like 1 less muta
2. I clearly suggested using overlords that are already near the terran base to morph into overseers, ovie speed is not a prereq for attacking terran with mutalisks. Is it worth investing in ovie speed when fighting a player going heavy mines? sure, but it's not needed only for muta harass.
3. This is up for testing, but given that I have seen a delay on mine activation, I believe it: A group of 9 mutalisks can kill a widow mine with no losses! This is what the guy was talking about when he mentioned that WM aren't OP if you micro. Sufficiently stacked muta's will kill the mine, after it activates, but before it launches.
That being said it is very possible to attack a mineral line with both a turret up and 2 mines with 9+ mutas and an overseer. You have to trigger 1 mine with the overseer first, then target fire the other mine with the mutas, then you focus down the turret and BAM! you rape the poop out of that mineral line while suffering only minimal damage on your mutas from the missile turret. This will take good micro execution, but when a player leaves 2 mines and a turret to defend a line, he probably didn't expect you to roll in and rape it, so he won't have back up ready and you can get value from the muta attack.
-edit: Nath'd
/shakes fist
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SolidZeal, you can turn the auto-attack from the Widow Mines off. It would be good if you couldn't, so you would be able to trigger the Mines with Overlords/Overseers, but you can't, they will just turn them on when your Mutas come, so there is no way in engaging one Widow Mine without losing one Mutalisk, and that is 100/100 for 75/25, that is why many people think that it is bad. So, not only you have to play slowly, just not lose Mutalisks for "free", but it will also give Terran enough time to come back with like ~10 Marines and your harass is over, with no loss for Terran player and at least 2 Mutas Lost for Zerg player.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 04 2012 00:40 Ramiz1989 wrote:
SolidZeal, you can turn the auto-attack from the Widow Mines off. It would be good if you couldn't, so you would be able to trigger the Mines with Overlords/Overseers, but you can't, they will just turn them on when your Mutas come, so there is no way in engaging one Widow Mine without losing one Mutalisk, and that is 100/100 for 75/25, that is why many people think that it is bad. So, not only you have to play slowly, just not lose Mutalisks for "free", but it will also give Terran enough time to come back with like ~10 Marines and your harass is over, with no loss for Terran player and at least 2 Mutas Lost for Zerg player.
Dude, if you fly over with Overseer and the mine is off, you can fly in with Mutalisks and kill it. If they turn it on, it will still target the closest unit - the Overseer. You are completely incorrect in your assertion.
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1) Widow mines need to be destroyed upon a single use (i.e. self destruct).
2) It should not be able to hit cloaked units.
3) It should have a weakness against air.
4) It's damage and splash damage should be reduced.
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On December 04 2012 01:23 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 00:40 Ramiz1989 wrote:
SolidZeal, you can turn the auto-attack from the Widow Mines off. It would be good if you couldn't, so you would be able to trigger the Mines with Overlords/Overseers, but you can't, they will just turn them on when your Mutas come, so there is no way in engaging one Widow Mine without losing one Mutalisk, and that is 100/100 for 75/25, that is why many people think that it is bad. So, not only you have to play slowly, just not lose Mutalisks for "free", but it will also give Terran enough time to come back with like ~10 Marines and your harass is over, with no loss for Terran player and at least 2 Mutas Lost for Zerg player. Dude, if you fly over with Overseer and the mine is off, you can fly in with Mutalisks and kill it. If they turn it on, it will still target the closest unit - the Overseer. You are completely incorrect in your assertion.
No it won't target the closes unit, the targeting is random, that is the whole problem...
I've even saw a video(can't remember which one), where 2 Immortals were standing like 1 range from the Mine, and Mine targeted Observer that was like 4 range from the Mine.
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Okay 1 Turret, + 2 Widow Mines, + 1 Vikings can protect one 9 range space. So what? 1 Thor can protect 1 9 range space, and it's more mobile than what you've listed above.
Cost for cost Muta with Magic Box can beat Thor. 1 Turret + 2 WM beat a lot of Muta
Edit: also Viking is not for muta, it's for killing Overlord and Overseer
Yes Bluekatz, a turret and mines + marines or vikings will make mutas unable to harass...then again, so do marines + turrets currently in WoL...so I don't see what you're trying to say there, if the terran is completely prepared for your attack it will not work.
2 WM is a lot cheaper than a bunch of Marines and a lot more effective. Can you defend your 2 bases with 8 marines? No. Sure it's possible vs like 8 muta but what killed muta play that just 1 Turret + 2 WM can shut down infinity amount of muta (ok not exactly infinity, 20 or less actually)
People seem to forget that Muta is not just about harassing it can be a great offensive units too. But if MW can shut it down that easily then there's no reason to use more than 8 muta, which mean no reason to go muta at all. Infestor, SH late game gglord all days
Also what with the misleading information about WM targeting here? You can turn it off and target enemy normally like using Spell, it will only auto target if you use turn the auto on instead.
Also about 4 Overseer quote, I agree with wasting some gases on that, not making 4 Overseers part. (you do want to make at least 2 however) You do want speed actually or Terran just need 1 Viking to kill you or after he gets a big army he can just walk around (some maps are just that bad), it's 2-3 less muta but that's a lot better in long term play (pass 8 muta mark)
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 04 2012 03:05 BlueKatz wrote:Show nested quote +Okay 1 Turret, + 2 Widow Mines, + 1 Vikings can protect one 9 range space. So what? 1 Thor can protect 1 9 range space, and it's more mobile than what you've listed above. Cost for cost Muta with Magic Box can beat Thor. 1 Turret + 2 WM beat a lot of Muta Edit: also Viking is not for muta, it's for killing Overlord and Overseer Show nested quote +Yes Bluekatz, a turret and mines + marines or vikings will make mutas unable to harass...then again, so do marines + turrets currently in WoL...so I don't see what you're trying to say there, if the terran is completely prepared for your attack it will not work. 2 WM is a lot cheaper than a bunch of Marines and a lot more effective. Can you defend your 2 bases with 8 marines? No. Sure it's possible vs like 8 muta but what killed muta play that just 1 Turret + 2 WM can shut down infinity amount of muta (ok not exactly infinity, 20 or less actually) People seem to forget that Muta is not just about harassing it can be a great offensive units too. But if MW can shut it down that easily then there's no reason to use more than 8 muta, which mean no reason to go muta at all. Infestor, SH late game gglord all days Also what with the misleading information about WM targeting here? You can turn it off and target enemy normally like using Spell, it will only auto target if you use turn the auto on instead. Also about 4 Overseer quote, I agree with wasting some gases on that, not making 4 Overseers part. (you do want to make at least 2 however) You do want speed actually or Terran just need 1 Viking to kill you or after he gets a big army he can just walk around (some maps are just that bad), it's 2-3 less muta but that's a lot better in long term play (pass 8 muta mark)
You're just making stuff up now dude. How can I discuss with that? 1 Viking can't shut down an Overseer, not even close. So that entire point you are making about 1 viking 2 widow mine 1 turret shutting down an area is now completely invalid.
1 Turret and 2 widow mines can't defend 20 mutas. that's nonsense.
It's already been addressed why you can't just target a Muta with your Widow Mine - Mutas can kill a widow mine before it gets the chance to attack. It doesn't attack instantly. So you can't just "target a muta" and always trade a mine for a muta.
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^You left the Viking to fend off the Overseers, not to kill it, meanwhile you drop normally to keep muta out. Never say it's needed just something I like to do to force other not to send some muta to snipe WM
1 Turret and 2 widow mines can't defend 20 mutas. that's nonsense.
Oh course it should not be able to hold 20, but surely it can hold less than that
It's already been addressed why you can't just target a Muta with your Widow Mine - Mutas can kill a widow mine before it gets the chance to attack. It doesn't attack instantly. So you can't just "target a muta" and always trade a mine for a muta.
That's why you have more than 1 WM... if you let he get THAT much muta without leaving any at home you are doing it wrong
The more Muta you get the more mine you lay around, but overall it's just not good for muta players. lol I never say (or intended) WM out right kill Muta it's just not very cost effective going muta, that's why we go Infestor instead
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 04 2012 05:05 BlueKatz wrote:^You left the Viking to fend off the Overseers, not to kill it, meanwhile you drop normally to keep muta out. Never say it's needed just something I like to do to force other not to send some muta to snipe WM Oh course it should not be able to hold 20, but surely it can hold less than that Show nested quote +It's already been addressed why you can't just target a Muta with your Widow Mine - Mutas can kill a widow mine before it gets the chance to attack. It doesn't attack instantly. So you can't just "target a muta" and always trade a mine for a muta. That's why you have more than 1 WM... if you let he get THAT much muta without leaving any at home you are doing it wrong The more Muta you get the more mine you lay around, but overall it's just not good for muta players. lol I never say (or intended) WM out right kill Muta it's just not very cost effective going muta, that's why we go Infestor instead
Upload a replay of this being the case, please.
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Sure as long as I can find a Muta zerg player in HotS when playing Terran. I can upload my muta play but then you can just say "oh you just don't do it right" anyways
Edit: send a PM, hopefully I will get to play vs Muta this weekend when I get back
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 04 2012 14:25 BlueKatz wrote:
Sure as long as I can find a Muta zerg player in HotS when playing Terran. I can upload my muta play but then you can just say "oh you just don't do it right" anyways
It gives us some frame of reference to talk about it, it doesn't matter if you are the Terran or Zerg. I can say "oh you didn't do it right" but then I have to follow that up with "you should have done this", and we can see how that would or wouldn't work in a game.
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I really like widow mines but I don't feel they should attack air. By being able to attack air they can effectively shut down mutas and drops, and that's about all the AA capability is good for. I think it would be best if they only attacked ground and had a sight buff to cooldown or something.
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If the WM is activated, can you use a changeling to make it go off? If so, that is the answer to the muta harasss issue potentially and would hopefully make it a bit more micro intensive, but not overwhelming...
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While i'm not against the existence of something like the widow mines and i don't have a beta account, so i don't really know, i do have some worries about this issue, familiar to what op is trying to say (i think, not sure though. edit: after reading op again, i'm even less sure).
The way i see muta play is the following:
Mutas are powerful harass units in flocks. 1 muta can't harass at all, a few mutas scattered around neither. So you need a group closely together to make a fist. Also, a lot of the mutas' strength is the threat. Josh Waitzkin said about chess something i think is relevant in this case: 'the threat is stronger than the execution'. What is needed in this case? Speed. Mutas are quite fast. It is possible to be at one side of your opponent's base, and 20 seconds later at the other side. This forces you opponent to be very aware of what is happening, make him believe the threat is real. This way the mutas give a player map control.
Now, in relation to the widow mine, i have a remark.
Suppose i have a flock of mutas. What i want to do is exactly like stated above. Harass while you can. Now suppose my opponent has made some widow mines. Not an extreme amount, just a few. Let's say like 4. He has the opportunity to put them anywhere. In order to move my mutas freely, i need to make sure there is no mine nearby. This of course is no different then let's say a group of marines. But i can avoid a group of marines when i see them. I don't really see a widow mine until it fires. Because of the dependence of effectiveness of mutas on group size and density, a firing widow mine is very dangerous. Well, all right. Let's make some overseers for detection. But they aren't really fast. At least, not as fast as the mutalisk. And now the point to my story: it strikes me as ironic that one needs some kind of map control to make a composition work that works because it gives map control.
As i said before, i never played against widow mines before. What i didn't say before is that i am quite the low level player, so i may have no clue what i'm talking about. Is there anyone who thinks the same thing? Or maybe thinks this is total bullshit? Please enlighten me
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Terran is WAY to OP i wish protoss ahd a unit that cost 50 min and just make mass marines and OWN i would easily trade the Zelot for Marine anyday and widow mines rape wayy too much they shouldnt be able to detect cloaked units like obs and dts and burrow units and people say terran are UNDERPOWERED LOL!
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EPT
