EPTWhy does need mech need to be viable in TvP? - Page 2
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
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mlspmatt
Canada404 Posts
On October 29 2012 10:46 NAPoleonSC wrote: I don't play BW, and I only became a BW spectator because of the Hybrid Proleague. Isn't that what BW TvP is? I don't think the whole point is to have every option available, but to be competitive, skill based, and fun to watch. Edit: I know I shouldn't be comparing it to BW, but it should at least be a reference. Every option? There are only two. And seeing as Mech isn't viable, there are NO options. Only the singular choice of Bio. Terrans want AN option, not EVERY option. | ||
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skunkz
France32 Posts
No, we moved on. | ||
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Valon
United States329 Posts
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Demurity
United States424 Posts
On October 29 2012 12:45 skunkz wrote: These threads about make mech in TvP are hilarious seriously, do you see protoss asking stargate to be viable in PvT? No, we moved on. But it's happening... Mech in WoL was weak... it was missing a component that BW had to increase the payoff when carefully positioning units-- the mine helps a lot now I think. I love going mech ever since BW because it can be rewarding as a powerful army if you compose it correctly and play strategically. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5219 Posts
On October 29 2012 12:45 skunkz wrote: These threads about make mech in TvP are hilarious seriously, do you see protoss asking stargate to be viable in PvT? No, we moved on. Air units are a different thing entirely. Is purely Spire or Starport play viable? No. So neither should Stargate play. Because they aren't restricted by terrain, pure air play actually turns out to be very boring and difficult to balance. The issue here is Mech, and the thing about Mech is that it has it's own set of upgrades, suggesting that it should work (as it can in TvT and TvZ to some extent) but it doesn't work at all in TvP. And why should it work when Bio works just fine? Because it is boring Terran to only have one playstyle to use against Protoss, for both the Protoss and Terran player. I've had my fair share of wins and losses in PvT, and frankly, I am bored of it. Every game goes the same basic way. Making Mech as effective as Bio literally doubles the challenge in PvT. So why it doesn't matter from a balance perspective, it matters from a fun perspective, and that means it is really important to casual players. | ||
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mlspmatt
Canada404 Posts
On October 29 2012 12:52 Demurity wrote: But it's happening... Mech in WoL was weak... it was missing a component that BW had to increase the payoff when carefully positioning units-- the mine helps a lot now I think. I love going mech ever since BW because it can be rewarding as a powerful army if you compose it correctly and play strategically. This is a good point. There's so much more strategy and planning that goes into a mech composition. It's a superior style of play strategically, and this is an RTS. There's not much strategy to Bio play. How good is your micro essentially. | ||
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nichan
United States158 Posts
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ant-1
Canada149 Posts
I'm a toss, I must confess. Do I cry to mother'blizz because templar tech SUCKS in PvP? (And boy, does it suck). NO. Do I cry because stargate tech is unused in PvT? NO. I frickin get over it. But terran sometime act like the spoiled children of SC2. They want all, all the time. I do respect people like goody or Lyyna, though. They try stuff, and it even works! They don't cry, they innovate. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On October 29 2012 10:17 Markwerf wrote: The question I got however is why should this be desired? This is a very stupid question, because if it wasnt desirable to have mech be viable, why should they keep the units in the game? Every game is better with more choice; it gets better for the player, because it isnt so "one-dimensional" and it gets better for the eSports viewer because of the possible variety of tactics. Mech is just one example of what is NOT VIABLE in SC2 in its current form, but sadly Blizzard is going about it the wrong way to try and make it viable again. Air units are pretty much limited to harrassment and utility roles - unless you are a Zerg. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5219 Posts
On October 29 2012 13:27 ant-1 wrote: Man, I couldn't agree more. Why are all the terran so focused on having ALL their frickin options available ALL THE TIME? You know some stuff sucks in some matchups. I'm a toss, I must confess. Do I cry to mother'blizz because templar tech SUCKS in PvP? (And boy, does it suck). NO. Do I cry because stargate tech is unused in PvT? NO. I frickin get over it. But terran sometime act like the spoiled children of SC2. They want all, all the time. I do respect people like goody or Lyyna, though. They try stuff, and it even works! They don't cry, they innovate. Dark Templar are great in PvP, so are Archons, and Feedback is very important against the Mothership. Sure Storms are used, but that isn't a huge issue... Air tech is different as I explained above. I play Protoss and I want to see Mech viable badly. | ||
Falling
Canada11472 Posts
Because mech play is a very positional game. Because mech play is fun to play and fun to play against. The state of PvT lies as much at the feet of Protoss design as it does Terran, but mech play would at least help. | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
On October 29 2012 12:45 skunkz wrote: These threads about make mech in TvP are hilarious seriously, do you see protoss asking stargate to be viable in PvT? No, we moved on. I've been wanting Stargate play to be viable since the game freaking came out. As have a lot of other people. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26503 Posts
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
For zerg, even with separate upgrades they share the same production facility ala the hatchery. For protoss, they have different production facilities but share the same upgrades for all ground units (and upgrades for air units) so you can mix and match your ground composition or air. With Terran its impossible to do the above so the tech tree must be sort of stand alone to a degree and be versatile against all matchups. Its the beauty of Terran and its what makes that race so different. Blizzard although making the tech trees work better with one another really weakened its ability to be standalone. And with regards to TvP Mech BW.. it was beautiful to watch even if happened 90% of the time (and for years!). Mine drags, hero reavers, storms everywhere, clutch emps on arbiters, recalls everywhere, carriers vs goliaths, cloaked wraiths against carriers etc etc. It was such an intense matchup to watch starting from dragoon vs vulture/spider mine micro to the big big frontal clashes of two very very different armies (one with overwhelming firepower but little mobility vs a more well round army that is the Protoss + its magicks). | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On October 29 2012 14:52 YyapSsap wrote: For those saying why T is asking for other options to be viable is well .. because it's the nature of the Terran race as a whole. The production/upgrades are tied to three separate tech trees. By that I mean that if one goes bio, the resources/time spent on the production and upgrades will primarily affect bio. Sure we can fill in some of the roles using units from the other tech trees, but switching that "core" ala bio for instance to sky terran or mech will be very very difficult if not possible. For zerg, even with separate upgrades they share the same production facility ala the hatchery. For protoss, they have different production facilities but share the same upgrades for all ground units (and upgrades for air units) so you can mix and match your ground composition or air. With Terran its impossible to do the above so the tech tree must be sort of stand alone to a degree and be versatile against all matchups. Its the beauty of Terran and its what makes that race so different. Blizzard although making the tech trees work better with one another really weakened its ability to be standalone. And with regards to TvP Mech BW.. it was beautiful to watch even if happened 90% of the time (and for years!). Mine drags, hero reavers, storms everywhere, clutch emps on arbiters, recalls everywhere, carriers vs goliaths, cloaked wraiths against carriers etc etc. It was such an intense matchup to watch starting from dragoon vs vulture/spider mine micro to the big big frontal clashes of two very very different armies (one with overwhelming firepower but little mobility vs a more well round army that is the Protoss + its magicks). yes BW PvT is awesome to see. I also really liked to see bio play in BW TvZ though. Why not just aim to make Bio more fun in TvP HotS... Getting mech to work requires way too much work from this point I believe as almost everything in protoss is good against mech, plus zerg is weak to mech already at the moment so whatever changes they have to do must not screw over zerg. I get that everyone wants to see mech but trust me... HotS is already almost only mech in TvZ and TvT now... Hellion+tank is way more solid then marine+tank in TvZ and TvT because the hellbat is a great hp shield, shares upgrades with the tank and you can deal with air by widow mines. You even get to use medivacs to heal your units as well, hellion+tank beats out marine tank on almost any front in HotS now.. Blizzard is now trying to make mech work everywhere so we can see it in any match, yet bio remains virtually untouched (a few widow mines early game perhaps that's it). Wouldn't it be much more fun and far easier to balance if they would just focus on increasing both: make bio more interesting in TvP (buff air or just ravens to have a use in TvP providing a cool transition, perhaps change reaper to have a lategame use etc.) and make mech cooler in the other two matchups. I haven't seen one good argument why mech should be forced onto each matchup, variability is cool but sc2 already has that more than BW really (more different strats per matchup to be honest). HotS would be much better off enriching the current strategies there are in the matchups instead of making mech viable or even a must everywhere and letting bio be boring as it is.. | ||
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
On October 29 2012 12:36 DeCoup wrote: I don't think bio is ruined by 1 spell. That is overly dramatic. Adapt > QQ. Bio vs toss deathball was stim and stutter step away from the toss deathball. And some marine splitting to avoid the storms. There is a spell that prevents all of that now and you don't think bio is ruined by that spell in its current state? Did you also think toss needed to adapt to the warhound or was it good Blizzard removed it? | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On October 29 2012 22:36 papaz wrote: Bio vs toss deathball was stim and stutter step away from the toss deathball. And some marine splitting to avoid the storms. There is a spell that prevents all of that now and you don't think bio is ruined by that spell in its current state? Did you also think toss needed to adapt to the warhound or was it good Blizzard removed it? Toss did adapt to the war hound. They QQ'ed and nuked it from the game. | ||
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