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Blizzard is doing a lot of work to try and fix mech for TvP and make it a good style overall. Many people on this forum continously sprout ideas what should change that would make mech more viable etc.
The question I got however is why should this be desired?
In WoL mech already sees a fair bit of play in TvZ and TvT though arguably marine tank is still more popular in those matches.
In HotS mech gets buffed so much though that TvT and TvZ almost surely look to be mech dominated, afterall you want tanks in those matches anyway and the hellbat looks to be the far more synergetic mineral dump instead of marines, especially if widow mines help out to deal with the vulnerability to air and/or harass.
Isn't mech being good if not neccesary in 2 out of 3 matches already being enough in HotS? Why does blizzard focus so much on trying to get it to work in PvT? This game is not BW why should it try to copy it in this respect?
Sure give mech enough tools it can work eventually in PvT but it will be very hard to not make mech too broken in the other matchups, unless of course you add units that are only good vs protoss but not so much vs zerg. Then you end up with ugly designs as the warhound with +mechanical bonus etc. though which at the same time make TvT completely boring.
I'd say just don't bother trying to fix mech for TvP too much, there are so many liabilities (immortals, no AA, low mobility, tempest range) that it requires way too much work. Chances are if they do fix it it will only go at the cost of the other terran matchups. Even worse perhaps they fix it and then they have to nerf mech down the line anyway because of TvZ, this happened a ton of times before already in WoL..
Just focus on fixing TvP from another way is a much more elegant solution to the matchup I think. Make air viable in TvP! By just buffing and adjusting the battlecruiser it can become a good lategame unit. This could solve two problems in the matchup without going the ugly mech route:
- terrans would have a nice transition from bio automatically dealing with the gas buildup you often see in TvP
- the lategame frustation for terran where they have to micro much more than protoss wouldn't be so bad, if you hate that scenario you could just switch to the air composition
Battlecruisers have been pretty good in TvP in the early stages of WoL already so don't need too much of a buff for this really, for example just somethign as simple as not letting HT's be able to feedback mechanical units or just tweaking the speed and damage of the BC could do it already. Stalkers vs battlecruisers can also feature some interesting map abuse at least, something that is not really present in the boring viking vs carrier or corruptor vs carrier (capital ships being countered by air doesn't give the option for the cool stuff that was PvT in BW).
TL;DR
WoL was perhaps too dominated by bio but why should mech be good in all matchups in HotS? Let terran remain to use bio for TvP but buff air accordingly so the matchup is still changed from it's WoL counterpart, no need to focus all terran changes on the factory only..
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Because TvP sucks. It's boring. As a terran and a fan, I'm tired of watching terran use the same strat, game after game, day after day, month after month. I hardly even watch TvP anymore. TvZ is far superior in every way. And the point of the game isn't just to have a competitive game, we have that. The point is also to keep fans interested and seeing the game develop, watching new strategies evolve.
Right now there is no evolving in TvP. It's the same as it was a year ago. The same openings, the same midgame, and the same late game. Every game. It's stale, boring, and not intertaining as a fan or a Terran.
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Well that's your opinion, everybody else has their own, there should be no reason why we can't mech in TvP
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I don't play BW, and I only became a BW spectator because of the Hybrid Proleague.
Because TvP sucks. It's boring. As a terran and a fan, I'm tired of watching terran use the same strat, game after game, day after day, month after month.
Isn't that what BW TvP is? I don't think the whole point is to have every option available, but to be competitive, skill based, and fun to watch.
Edit: I know I shouldn't be comparing it to BW, but it should at least be a reference.
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If time bomb goes live there will be no hope for bio. I want to be able to use an army that can take a punch =[
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Because right now the only viable strategy tvp is bio. And bio is highly used in tvz as well along with tvt. At least in tvt/tvz you can do mech as well but it's not a must. It would be nice for terrans to be able to go mech vs protoss because it's just super predictable what terrans will do in tvp because it's all they can do.
I am a zerg, but I know that mech should and needs to be viable tvp. It makes it more exciting anyway tvp mech for some reason. I couldn't tell you why but bio vs toss isn't entertaining to me while mech is.
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also dont forget that bw tvp was a mech based matchup, just watch any terran stream bw and its the only thing youll see. people want mech to be viable in tvp for the same reasons that they want the carrier to not suck and for the hydralisk to have a place in the game outside of zvz
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I personally want to see Tank supply get lowered from 3 to 2, then see what happens from there balance-wise and tweak accordingly.
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Bio is fine to a point, but it is not an interesting composition in the lategame: a giant bioball endlessly kiting while dropping emps just gets old after a while. Mech allows for a much more positioning-oriented playstyle.
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Some people just want to see BW mech again.
Some people are just sick of going bio every game.
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Because options make for a more diverse/interesting to watch game.
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Because it would be epic and force another aspect to the game: positioning. Also, Bio is boring, the game comes down to EMP v.s Storm.
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Mech play is really fun to watch.
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I see a couple reasons why everyone wants mech apparently:
1) Nostalgia, mech was in BW.
- well this game is too different from BW for that to work so easily, we still get to see mech in every TvT and most TvZs in HotS so far..
2) To give terran more options in PvT
- sure more options are cool but should everything be viable in every match? Bio was not possible in BW PvT, why should mech be so much in HotS? Too much options makes it very random as well.
3) Bio is boring
- only bio in TvP for a long time is a bit stale perhaps but soon seeing only mech would be even worse. I personally think it's most fun for viewing and playing if each matchup you need different styles and they play out differently. So far in the beta I only see bio used in TvP still making it more unique already, giving an other endgame like air would avoid the problems of it being only storm vs emp and frustating kiting only. Ie. I think the bio vs protoss is boring because of other flaws like P turtling, T losing endgame, T not having a transition etc.
Why not just develop bio into a more rich strategy instead of forcing mech onto each matchup.. I just don't get it
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Just saying there are plenty of changes that could be done that wouldn't really affect the other MU"s
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Mech has to be viable in future TvP because Bio won't if they don't remove Time Warp.
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Because Mech is awesome?
Go watch a BW mech game.
The sheer firepower of tanks is awesome.
Its better than SC2 TvP, so why would we not want it?
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........ Bio is viable in BW TvP as an All-in style and is dependent on the element of surprise. I was watching a 1500 Fish terran actually pull off a 25 minute bio TvP but he had 300+ apm and im sure the win rate if the P knows its coming early enough is really low.
As far sc2 goes and HOTS TvP. I have faith in the community and this explosion of passion (some ppl call drama) is good, to me everything is going good.
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Firstly, you claim that mech is going to dominate in both tvz and tvt in hots. What evidence do you have for that claim? From my experience in the beta marine tank styles are still very viable in both matchups. Secondly, people want mech to be viable as it allows for strong positional play, giving Terran options.
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And Terran players are tired of Bio and having to "RUN" from Protoss in the late game. It feels weak. Nobody who plays the game casually wants to run from a battle, cause that's no fun. It would be greatly satisfying to build up 40 tanks, forcing Toss into an engagement and watching his entire army melt. There's joy in that for Terran's.
At the end of the day it's a video game, and it's supposed to be fun. Bio isn't fun.
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I don't think bio is ruined by 1 spell. That is overly dramatic. Adapt > QQ.
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On October 29 2012 10:46 NAPoleonSC wrote:I don't play BW, and I only became a BW spectator because of the Hybrid Proleague. Show nested quote +Because TvP sucks. It's boring. As a terran and a fan, I'm tired of watching terran use the same strat, game after game, day after day, month after month. Isn't that what BW TvP is? I don't think the whole point is to have every option available, but to be competitive, skill based, and fun to watch. Edit: I know I shouldn't be comparing it to BW, but it should at least be a reference.
Every option? There are only two. And seeing as Mech isn't viable, there are NO options. Only the singular choice of Bio. Terrans want AN option, not EVERY option.
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These threads about make mech in TvP are hilarious seriously, do you see protoss asking stargate to be viable in PvT?
No, we moved on.
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To add more strategies and make the matchup different than having to play the exact same way.
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On October 29 2012 12:45 skunkz wrote:
These threads about make mech in TvP are hilarious seriously, do you see protoss asking stargate to be viable in PvT?
No, we moved on.
But it's happening...
Mech in WoL was weak... it was missing a component that BW had to increase the payoff when carefully positioning units-- the mine helps a lot now I think. I love going mech ever since BW because it can be rewarding as a powerful army if you compose it correctly and play strategically.
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On October 29 2012 12:45 skunkz wrote:
These threads about make mech in TvP are hilarious seriously, do you see protoss asking stargate to be viable in PvT?
No, we moved on.
Air units are a different thing entirely. Is purely Spire or Starport play viable? No. So neither should Stargate play. Because they aren't restricted by terrain, pure air play actually turns out to be very boring and difficult to balance.
The issue here is Mech, and the thing about Mech is that it has it's own set of upgrades, suggesting that it should work (as it can in TvT and TvZ to some extent) but it doesn't work at all in TvP.
And why should it work when Bio works just fine? Because it is boring Terran to only have one playstyle to use against Protoss, for both the Protoss and Terran player. I've had my fair share of wins and losses in PvT, and frankly, I am bored of it. Every game goes the same basic way. Making Mech as effective as Bio literally doubles the challenge in PvT.
So why it doesn't matter from a balance perspective, it matters from a fun perspective, and that means it is really important to casual players.
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On October 29 2012 12:52 Demurity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 12:45 skunkz wrote:
These threads about make mech in TvP are hilarious seriously, do you see protoss asking stargate to be viable in PvT?
No, we moved on. But it's happening... Mech in WoL was weak... it was missing a component that BW had to increase the payoff when carefully positioning units-- the mine helps a lot now I think. I love going mech ever since BW because it can be rewarding as a powerful army if you compose it correctly and play strategically.
This is a good point. There's so much more strategy and planning that goes into a mech composition. It's a superior style of play strategically, and this is an RTS. There's not much strategy to Bio play. How good is your micro essentially.
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BW TvP was mech like 90% of the time wasn't it? no bio
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Man, I couldn't agree more. Why are all the terran so focused on having ALL their frickin options available ALL THE TIME? You know some stuff sucks in some matchups.
I'm a toss, I must confess.
Do I cry to mother'blizz because templar tech SUCKS in PvP? (And boy, does it suck). NO.
Do I cry because stargate tech is unused in PvT?
NO.
I frickin get over it.
But terran sometime act like the spoiled children of SC2. They want all, all the time. I do respect people like goody or Lyyna, though. They try stuff, and it even works! They don't cry, they innovate.
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On October 29 2012 10:17 Markwerf wrote:
The question I got however is why should this be desired?
This is a very stupid question, because if it wasnt desirable to have mech be viable, why should they keep the units in the game? Every game is better with more choice; it gets better for the player, because it isnt so "one-dimensional" and it gets better for the eSports viewer because of the possible variety of tactics.
Mech is just one example of what is NOT VIABLE in SC2 in its current form, but sadly Blizzard is going about it the wrong way to try and make it viable again. Air units are pretty much limited to harrassment and utility roles - unless you are a Zerg.
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On October 29 2012 13:27 ant-1 wrote:
Man, I couldn't agree more. Why are all the terran so focused on having ALL their frickin options available ALL THE TIME? You know some stuff sucks in some matchups.
I'm a toss, I must confess.
Do I cry to mother'blizz because templar tech SUCKS in PvP? (And boy, does it suck). NO.
Do I cry because stargate tech is unused in PvT?
NO.
I frickin get over it.
But terran sometime act like the spoiled children of SC2. They want all, all the time. I do respect people like goody or Lyyna, though. They try stuff, and it even works! They don't cry, they innovate.
Dark Templar are great in PvP, so are Archons, and Feedback is very important against the Mothership.
Sure Storms are used, but that isn't a huge issue...
Air tech is different as I explained above. I play Protoss and I want to see Mech viable badly.
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Canada11475 Posts
Because mech play is unique to any RTS game.
Because mech play is a very positional game.
Because mech play is fun to play and fun to play against.
The state of PvT lies as much at the feet of Protoss design as it does Terran, but mech play would at least help.
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On October 29 2012 12:45 skunkz wrote:
These threads about make mech in TvP are hilarious seriously, do you see protoss asking stargate to be viable in PvT?
No, we moved on.
I've been wanting Stargate play to be viable since the game freaking came out. As have a lot of other people.
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I think the answer is self-evident: diverse gameplay. Terran just needs a revamped Warhound, one that is basically a Goliath with a decent GtA for Tempests, and with a ground attack similar to the Reaper that can whittle down Immortal shields fairly well but not terribly good outside of that.
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Northern Ireland26505 Posts
I'd personally like to see mech of some kind, but not its current iteration as we see in TvZ. Too often does its success depends on running tons of hellions to their deaths and taking a bunch of drones with it. If they can manage it then, as a Protoss player I'd be all for it
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For those saying why T is asking for other options to be viable is well .. because it's the nature of the Terran race as a whole. The production/upgrades are tied to three separate tech trees. By that I mean that if one goes bio, the resources/time spent on the production and upgrades will primarily affect bio. Sure we can fill in some of the roles using units from the other tech trees, but switching that "core" ala bio for instance to sky terran or mech will be very very difficult if not possible.
For zerg, even with separate upgrades they share the same production facility ala the hatchery. For protoss, they have different production facilities but share the same upgrades for all ground units (and upgrades for air units) so you can mix and match your ground composition or air. With Terran its impossible to do the above so the tech tree must be sort of stand alone to a degree and be versatile against all matchups. Its the beauty of Terran and its what makes that race so different. Blizzard although making the tech trees work better with one another really weakened its ability to be standalone.
And with regards to TvP Mech BW.. it was beautiful to watch even if happened 90% of the time (and for years!). Mine drags, hero reavers, storms everywhere, clutch emps on arbiters, recalls everywhere, carriers vs goliaths, cloaked wraiths against carriers etc etc. It was such an intense matchup to watch starting from dragoon vs vulture/spider mine micro to the big big frontal clashes of two very very different armies (one with overwhelming firepower but little mobility vs a more well round army that is the Protoss + its magicks).
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On October 29 2012 14:52 YyapSsap wrote:
For those saying why T is asking for other options to be viable is well .. because it's the nature of the Terran race as a whole. The production/upgrades are tied to three separate tech trees. By that I mean that if one goes bio, the resources/time spent on the production and upgrades will primarily affect bio. Sure we can fill in some of the roles using units from the other tech trees, but switching that "core" ala bio for instance to sky terran or mech will be very very difficult if not possible.
For zerg, even with separate upgrades they share the same production facility ala the hatchery. For protoss, they have different production facilities but share the same upgrades for all ground units (and upgrades for air units) so you can mix and match your ground composition or air. With Terran its impossible to do the above so the tech tree must be sort of stand alone to a degree and be versatile against all matchups. Its the beauty of Terran and its what makes that race so different. Blizzard although making the tech trees work better with one another really weakened its ability to be standalone.
And with regards to TvP Mech BW.. it was beautiful to watch even if happened 90% of the time (and for years!). Mine drags, hero reavers, storms everywhere, clutch emps on arbiters, recalls everywhere, carriers vs goliaths, cloaked wraiths against carriers etc etc. It was such an intense matchup to watch starting from dragoon vs vulture/spider mine micro to the big big frontal clashes of two very very different armies (one with overwhelming firepower but little mobility vs a more well round army that is the Protoss + its magicks).
yes BW PvT is awesome to see.
I also really liked to see bio play in BW TvZ though.
Why not just aim to make Bio more fun in TvP HotS... Getting mech to work requires way too much work from this point I believe as almost everything in protoss is good against mech, plus zerg is weak to mech already at the moment so whatever changes they have to do must not screw over zerg.
I get that everyone wants to see mech but trust me... HotS is already almost only mech in TvZ and TvT now... Hellion+tank is way more solid then marine+tank in TvZ and TvT because the hellbat is a great hp shield, shares upgrades with the tank and you can deal with air by widow mines. You even get to use medivacs to heal your units as well, hellion+tank beats out marine tank on almost any front in HotS now..
Blizzard is now trying to make mech work everywhere so we can see it in any match, yet bio remains virtually untouched (a few widow mines early game perhaps that's it).
Wouldn't it be much more fun and far easier to balance if they would just focus on increasing both: make bio more interesting in TvP (buff air or just ravens to have a use in TvP providing a cool transition, perhaps change reaper to have a lategame use etc.) and make mech cooler in the other two matchups.
I haven't seen one good argument why mech should be forced onto each matchup, variability is cool but sc2 already has that more than BW really (more different strats per matchup to be honest). HotS would be much better off enriching the current strategies there are in the matchups instead of making mech viable or even a must everywhere and letting bio be boring as it is..
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Look, I don't think people realize how hard it actually is to dodge storms, and basically run away from a protoss army and trying to fight it indirectly. It is really hard for casual players, the people who aren't playing every day. The truth of the matter is terran have no late game option that if they make this unit they can compete with the toss head to head. Toss have that option in the form of collossus/carrier/HT/Tempests and then they have the scary immortal busts.
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On October 29 2012 12:36 DeCoup wrote:
I don't think bio is ruined by 1 spell. That is overly dramatic. Adapt > QQ.
Bio vs toss deathball was stim and stutter step away from the toss deathball. And some marine splitting to avoid the storms.
There is a spell that prevents all of that now and you don't think bio is ruined by that spell in its current state?
Did you also think toss needed to adapt to the warhound or was it good Blizzard removed it?
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On October 29 2012 22:36 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 12:36 DeCoup wrote:
I don't think bio is ruined by 1 spell. That is overly dramatic. Adapt > QQ. Bio vs toss deathball was stim and stutter step away from the toss deathball. And some marine splitting to avoid the storms. There is a spell that prevents all of that now and you don't think bio is ruined by that spell in its current state? Did you also think toss needed to adapt to the warhound or was it good Blizzard removed it?
Toss did adapt to the war hound. They QQ'ed and nuked it from the game.
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Blizzard is trying to give Protoss a Stargate option so Terran should have better Mech or Air options as well don't ya think ?
Especially when they add a spell like timewarp that effectivly buffs the Toss deathball against Terran .
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On October 29 2012 13:27 ant-1 wrote:
Man, I couldn't agree more. Why are all the terran so focused on having ALL their frickin options available ALL THE TIME? You know some stuff sucks in some matchups.
I'm a toss, I must confess.
Do I cry to mother'blizz because templar tech SUCKS in PvP? (And boy, does it suck). NO.
Do I cry because stargate tech is unused in PvT?
NO.
I frickin get over it.
But terran sometime act like the spoiled children of SC2. They want all, all the time. I do respect people like goody or Lyyna, though. They try stuff, and it even works! They don't cry, they innovate.
Bio in TvP is very, very fragile and incredibly lopsided in terms of micro intensity. Also, guess what, Terrans have innovated. They have been innovating for years. There have been plenty of dedicated mech players who have tried to mech in TvP WoL and given up because it's impossible. You whine about the lack of Terran innovation when protoss players rarely try any compositions outside the A-Move deathball in PvT. That is fair to a point, because the deathball is actually the easiest and best competition to use in the MU and with good HT micro becomes nearly unbeatable. Terrans need a second option and mech wouldnt be that hard to make viable. If thor and bc energy was taken away that wouldnt affect any other MU and would improve TvP mech greatly.
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United Kingdom12027 Posts
Mech doesn't need to be viable, but it'd be much better if it was viable.
TvP is literally the same, every single game. There's no variation from Terran as it isn't possible and Protoss can't go air because Bio destroys air.
If mech is viable stargate play gets used and it gives more options to both sides of the matchup.
Also, I find bio really, really boring to play/watch and find mech much more exciting. For personal reasons I want Blizzard to work damn hard to make it properly viable at a pro level.
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You make a few weird assumptions OP.
You say that mech makes MUs the same. Mech in TvT plays and feels different then mech in TvZ. If they make mech good in TvP, it would play different then in TvT and TvZ.
Even in the same MU, you can play different styles of mech (or bio).
Bio in HOTS is NOT the same as in WOL. For example mines do not need upgrades to function, so there is no reason why you couldn't add mines to the normal MMM composition. Hellbats are bio (i think this is terrible TBH) so they can be added to the MMM comp and be healed. So bio DOES have new toys, even if at this time people are not really exploring them.
Also, you sound like you don't actually like mech play, but other people do. Why shouldn't Blizzard make mech viable? Because you don't like it is not a good reason lol.
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Having mech be viable simply opens up a whole new avenue of interest for the matchup.
Currently we're stuck with bio vs Protoss with factory units generally being used for some sort of cheeky aggression.
The matchup is sort of stagnant in this respect, and whilst the metagame shifts and players figure out a lot of small interesting new things, they're all, well, small.
Opening up more stargate and Factory viable strategies will (hopefully in theory) lead to a more open and diverse set of strategies and hopefully a better matchup.
At the very least HotS TvP cannot be like WoL TvP or blizzard would of failed at something.
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Because versatility is a good thing not only for the audience but also for the pros. And it requires more skill to be prepared against several options.
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On October 29 2012 23:05 Sapphire.lux wrote:
You make a few weird assumptions OP.
You say that mech makes MUs the same. Mech in TvT plays and feels different then mech in TvZ. If they make mech good in TvP, it would play different then in TvT and TvZ.
Even in the same MU, you can play different styles of mech (or bio).
Bio in HOTS is NOT the same as in WOL. For example mines do not need upgrades to function, so there is no reason why you couldn't add mines to the normal MMM composition. Hellbats are bio (i think this is terrible TBH) so they can be added to the MMM comp and be healed. So bio DOES have new toys, even if at this time people are not really exploring them.
Also, you sound like you don't actually like mech play, but other people do. Why shouldn't Blizzard make mech viable? Because you don't like it is not a good reason lol.
Do hell bats work of bio upgrades? Can they be slimmed and kite along with the rest of the bio?
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Because if it doesnt change TvP will never change and will become the most boring matchup to cast/watch.
Wings of Liberty:
TvT can be:
-Mech
-Marine Tank
-Bio
TvZ can be:
-Mech
-Marine Tank
-Bio
TvP can be:
-Bio
PvZ can be:
-Combination of protoss units
-Combination of protoss units
-Combination of protoss units
-Combination of protoss units
*Basicly allot of options (untill late game)
PvP can be:
-Anything into:
-War of the worlds
PvT can be:
-2 base all in (lots of options)
-Colli+Templar+lots of gateway's
ZvZ can be:
-Ling Bling into
--Roach
--Muta
---Infestor roach
-End game? Cluster F*ck
ZvT can be:
-Infestors + units build depending on Terran's tech choice
-Transition into GGLords with more GGFestors
ZvP can be:
-roach
-Infestor BL corruptor
So as one can see, There are matchups that just need more options. TvP is just very stale, every game is Bio, Bio and more Bio. There is nothing close to the effectiveness of it in the Terran arsenal atm. In HOTS they are trying to give more options in matchups that are stale, like PvP lategame -> Tempest, PvZ lategame-> Tempest. I'm not saying that its actually working but the idea of Blizzard is to change certain MU so they become more fun to watch.
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On October 29 2012 23:26 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 23:05 Sapphire.lux wrote:
You make a few weird assumptions OP.
You say that mech makes MUs the same. Mech in TvT plays and feels different then mech in TvZ. If they make mech good in TvP, it would play different then in TvT and TvZ.
Even in the same MU, you can play different styles of mech (or bio).
Bio in HOTS is NOT the same as in WOL. For example mines do not need upgrades to function, so there is no reason why you couldn't add mines to the normal MMM composition. Hellbats are bio (i think this is terrible TBH) so they can be added to the MMM comp and be healed. So bio DOES have new toys, even if at this time people are not really exploring them.
Also, you sound like you don't actually like mech play, but other people do. Why shouldn't Blizzard make mech viable? Because you don't like it is not a good reason lol.
Do hell bats work of bio upgrades? Can they be slimmed and kite along with the rest of the bio?
No, but they do perform to a decent level even at low upgrades vs charge lots. At the very least, you have a mineral only, healed unit that can tank a bit more dmg then marines. They are inferior to the upgraded Hellbat used by mech of course, but still decent, especially for players that can not kite very good.
Bio is fine either way, so everything that HOTS brings to it is an extra IMO.
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More styles should be viable, it makes the game more fun/interesting/complex.
I agree that there shouldn't be such an obsession about it - P/Z probably have much more stuff that is not viable or only viable if the opponent plays a certain style than T - but yes, they should try to make it work. Also siege tanks are an awesome unit by concept, they really should see more use for the sake of a good game.
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For the record, mech being viable has a lot more to do with Terran than it does Protoss.
Some history:
In BW, Mech was actually viable in all 3 MU, it was the endgame Terran army, eventually getting topped off with BCs if the Terran could afford it.
To understand why Terrans used mech in the first place though, we need to look at the Marine, the core of the Terran army in both games.
In BW, Marines had 40hp, stim literally doubled their DPS to the point that Marines without stim were basically worthless, there was no such thing as a reactor, and the medic's heal ability only had 2 range (i think). Compare those stats to the modern SC2 Marine for a minute.
Now here are some of the reasons why the BW Marine was not even useable in 2 out of 3 MU involving Terran.
-Zealots could kill Marines in 2 hits on even upgrades if the Marine used stim.
-Dragoons were faster, had more hp, and more range than Marines, in fact, the ONLY Terran units that could fight Dragoons reasonably cost effectively were Siege Tanks in Siege-mode and Spider Mines.
-Siege Tanks would 2-shot Marines.
-Vultures would 2-shot Marines.
-Lurkers would 2-shot Marines.
-Hell, even Goliaths would 3-shot Marines.
The moral of the story is that Marines weren't all that great. They could deal good damage, were very cheap, and expendable, which is why they were useful in TvZ, but beyond that, they just didn't have the robust HP needed to maintain utility on into the mid-late game in any MU. Even in TvZ, they would eventually get replaced with Goliaths, Ravens, and Vultures as gas allowed.
Now, back to why anybody would actually use mech and why it was so beautiful.
Terrans used mech because they didn't have a choice. When you get to know how BW works, Terran was the odd race. They were the ones missing the core bread-and-butter unit. Protoss had the Dragoon, which was easily the most standard and powerful shock-troop in the game, Zerg had the Hydralisk, which acted as a half-priced Dragoon as well as the Mutalisk, which was weaker in straight-up combat, but allowed for harassment while still fulfilling that bread-and-butter function.
Terran had the Goliath, which actually kinda sucked when hitting ground units, the Vulture, which sucked when hitting everything but came with 3 badass spider mines, and the Siege Tank, which HAD to be sieged before the fight, couldn't shoot up, and did just as good a job at killing your own stuff as it did the enemy. Terran had to combine all 3 of these units to fill the same functionality that the other two races had by default, and to top it off, Siege Tanks couldn't move. That is why mech is so awesome to watch and play. You feel like you are working with a broken army, but history tells us that Terran was the best race throughout most of BW. Broken army, and still winning. Terrans don't give a fuck, they just win anyway. THIS is why mech is awesome.
TLDR: Mech does not struggle because it's not good enough, Mech struggles because bio is viable.
Or if you didn't understand: If Blizzard wants to make mech viable, the fastest way to do so is to reduce Marine HP
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People hate being stuck Ina matchup that has little to no variable play. Similar to ZvP /PvZ where it's broken turtle test which is unfortunate because there should be alot of different ways to play!
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Because Bio deathball vs Colossi/HT deathball is extremely boring to watch and to play, with the game decided by which AOE lands first.
BW TvP Mech was a beautiful game of positioning and space control. We want mech, not because nostalgia, but because the current TvP is one of the most boring and ugly matchups ever.
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On October 30 2012 03:35 Jermstuddog wrote:
TLDR: Mech does not struggle because it's not good enough, Mech struggles because bio is viable.
Or if you didn't understand: If Blizzard wants to make mech viable, the fastest way to do so is to reduce Marine HP
Ever heard of actual SC2 TvZ. Actual SC2 TvT?
Bio and Mech are both viable side-by-side. So in conclusion, this has very little to do with the marine in general. Maybe in detail (like 1-1-1 rushes). But the real problem is, that Mech is an engegment ground style. Name one such style that can beat robo/archon armies...
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On October 30 2012 03:35 Jermstuddog wrote:
For the record, mech being viable has a lot more to do with Terran than it does Protoss.
Some history:
In BW, Mech was actually viable in all 3 MU, it was the endgame Terran army, eventually getting topped off with BCs if the Terran could afford it.
To understand why Terrans used mech in the first place though, we need to look at the Marine, the core of the Terran army in both games.
In BW, Marines had 40hp, stim literally doubled their DPS to the point that Marines without stim were basically worthless, there was no such thing as a reactor, and the medic's heal ability only had 2 range (i think). Compare those stats to the modern SC2 Marine for a minute.
Now here are some of the reasons why the BW Marine was not even useable in 2 out of 3 MU involving Terran.
-Zealots could kill Marines in 2 hits on even upgrades if the Marine used stim.
-Dragoons were faster, had more hp, and more range than Marines, in fact, the ONLY Terran units that could fight Dragoons reasonably cost effectively were Siege Tanks in Siege-mode and Spider Mines.
-Siege Tanks would 2-shot Marines.
-Vultures would 2-shot Marines.
-Lurkers would 2-shot Marines.
-Hell, even Goliaths would 3-shot Marines.
The moral of the story is that Marines weren't all that great. They could deal good damage, were very cheap, and expendable, which is why they were useful in TvZ, but beyond that, they just didn't have the robust HP needed to maintain utility on into the mid-late game in any MU. Even in TvZ, they would eventually get replaced with Goliaths, Ravens, and Vultures as gas allowed.
Now, back to why anybody would actually use mech and why it was so beautiful.
Terrans used mech because they didn't have a choice. When you get to know how BW works, Terran was the odd race. They were the ones missing the core bread-and-butter unit. Protoss had the Dragoon, which was easily the most standard and powerful shock-troop in the game, Zerg had the Hydralisk, which acted as a half-priced Dragoon as well as the Mutalisk, which was weaker in straight-up combat, but allowed for harassment while still fulfilling that bread-and-butter function.
Terran had the Goliath, which actually kinda sucked when hitting ground units, the Vulture, which sucked when hitting everything but came with 3 badass spider mines, and the Siege Tank, which HAD to be sieged before the fight, couldn't shoot up, and did just as good a job at killing your own stuff as it did the enemy. Terran had to combine all 3 of these units to fill the same functionality that the other two races had by default, and to top it off, Siege Tanks couldn't move. That is why mech is so awesome to watch and play. You feel like you are working with a broken army, but history tells us that Terran was the best race throughout most of BW. Broken army, and still winning. Terrans don't give a fuck, they just win anyway. THIS is why mech is awesome.
TLDR: Mech does not struggle because it's not good enough, Mech struggles because bio is viable.
Or if you didn't understand: If Blizzard wants to make mech viable, the fastest way to do so is to reduce Marine HP
On October 30 2012 03:45 link0 wrote:
Because Bio deathball vs Colossi/HT deathball is extremely boring to watch and to play, with the game decided by which AOE lands first.
BW TvP Mech was a beautiful game of positioning and space control. We want mech, not because nostalgia, but because the current TvP is one of the most boring and ugly matchups ever.
these posts pretty much sum it up.
its true that pvt in bw was strictly mech, but it was a highly positional and highly apm intensive matchup. not just here's some colossus, heres some ghosts, ggnore.
even for protoss in bw, it was always a uphill battle against mech because zealots would melt to vultures and tank splash. but most importantly, the struggle to remove siege tanks from the fight, from trying to pull off some clutch stasis without getting emp'd or great templar control and carpet storming a tank line.
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I honestly think TvP Mech is being held back because of the Thor. DB thought he could make a better Goliath. Making it "cooler" because big bad units are the coolest. Making it bulkier with a bulky ground shot, and splash air shot. Neither modification really fits well with the needs of Terran.
The GtG doesn't really diversify itself much from Tank shots or even Widow Mine, just slow explosive damage. It suffers along with the rest of Mech to Hardened Shields and other conventional counters to Mech. Goliath had soft rapid fire attacks that contrasted with Mines/Tank blast and was able to be good "filler" DPS to smooth out the kill curve. The Goliath was also more mobile, cheaper, and accessible, making it a lot easier to integrate, but not as strong of an army presence to justify spamming.
Thor's GtA, the splash air, suffers similarly to that of the Valkyrie, that 95% of the time, you want hard single target DPS to air units than soft splash. The splash was originaly designed to hard counter Muta balls, but Goliaths held against Mutas just as well in BW. If we took away that splash, a lot of things that plague Mech can be solved by solid single target air DPS with good range. Colossus, Broodlords, Tempests, all metagame wreckers at the moment that need predators to dissuade them from being produced. Also, now that Oracles are in play, Mech needs a way to deal with those too.
I'm not saying they should bring the Goliath back, I just think they should learn why the Goliath was a fantastic unit when considering the other units at play, and why the Thor is failing to complete the Tank/Mine/Goliath trinity.
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EPT
