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On October 26 2012 01:55 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 01:48 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 20:25 rpgalon wrote:This change shuts down the so wanted protoss AIR vs Mech, and makes protoss robo play the only viable choice in TvP (which is already the case in WoL). the problem of zerg late game, is the infestor, not the broodlord. On October 25 2012 19:20 Decendos wrote:
bad idea. mass thor (+ some support) is already close to unbeatable and a-move only in ZvT. just remove strike cannon and the energy bar to make thors more viable TvP. can people stop saying this? Blizzard already tried this change and it did not work, it went from Thors being countered by Immortals with HT support to Thors killing everything protoss have, both in ground and air. that was stupid and so Blizz rolled the patch back. Why does this shut Protoss air vs mech down? Just because this is an anti air spell? you are right, it does not, it's just another reason to go robo instead of air.
It would be nice if you at least tried to explain. Just curious, I cannot come up with any big problems..
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On October 25 2012 19:11 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 11:44 Najda wrote:On October 25 2012 11:23 Whitewing wrote:On October 25 2012 07:27 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ. No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it  ). You just say "you can balance it" but you don't explain how. If this skill is supposedly powerful enough to actually force your opponent to move out of it, then with sufficient thors, you'd effectively shut down air. Either it's useless or it's too strong, just like the strike cannon. Strike cannon without energy was way too strong, with energy it's useless. There really is no in between for things of this nature on such a beastly unit. The thor itself has too strong of a ground to ground attack, and too strong of a ground to air (at least against light) attack to also have a powerful special ability. QFT. If it's more powerful than the current AA attack, then it would be overpowered. If it was less powerful, no one would use it. No, it's a different weapon (has a different role) its not more powerful.
No, it's still the same role. The thor's anti-air is already currently used for zoning with it's range and splash. I think you just really want something in the game called flak cannon.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 25 2012 19:11 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 11:44 Najda wrote:On October 25 2012 11:23 Whitewing wrote:On October 25 2012 07:27 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ. No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it ). You just say "you can balance it" but you don't explain how. If this skill is supposedly powerful enough to actually force your opponent to move out of it, then with sufficient thors, you'd effectively shut down air. Either it's useless or it's too strong, just like the strike cannon. Strike cannon without energy was way too strong, with energy it's useless. There really is no in between for things of this nature on such a beastly unit. The thor itself has too strong of a ground to ground attack, and too strong of a ground to air (at least against light) attack to also have a powerful special ability. QFT. If it's more powerful than the current AA attack, then it would be overpowered. If it was less powerful, no one would use it. No, it's a different weapon (has a different role) its not more powerful.
If it's powerful enough to zone enemies (like broodlords as you suggest), it must be, by definition, more powerful, since the current attack is flat out insufficient for that task, unless you compensate by making it virtually useless against light air like mutalisks, which would make mech play ridiculously vulnerable to it and would be an awful idea.
You can't just come up with an idea, say "it can be balanced" and then leave it at that, you need to actually explain in what way it is balanced.
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On October 25 2012 22:17 DKR wrote:
You'd be pigeonholing the Thor into a AA role. Currently the Thor has a lot of utility and there's no way Blizzard would increase the ability to kill air without sacrificing anything in terms of it's ground attacks.
Fighting Blords with Thors is about picking the right time to engage, as it should be. Viking, Thor Hellion late game Mech TvZ is an awesome thing to see and use.
It is cool, my position is that this will make it even cooler. Plus that in the (super) late game, the Zerg has a clear advantage. It is very hard to force a Zerg out if his position while for the Zerg to push a Terran away is easy (ier).
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On October 26 2012 02:12 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 01:55 rpgalon wrote:On October 26 2012 01:48 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 20:25 rpgalon wrote:the problem of zerg late game, is the infestor, not the broodlord. On October 25 2012 19:20 Decendos wrote:
bad idea. mass thor (+ some support) is already close to unbeatable and a-move only in ZvT. just remove strike cannon and the energy bar to make thors more viable TvP. can people stop saying this? Blizzard already tried this change and it did not work, it went from Thors being countered by Immortals with HT support to Thors killing everything protoss have, both in ground and air. that was stupid and so Blizz rolled the patch back. Why does this shut Protoss air vs mech down? Just because this is an anti air spell? you are right, it does not, it's just another reason to go robo instead of air. It would be nice if you at least tried to explain. Just curious, I cannot come up with any big problems..
explain what? I said you are right, this change will not shut down protoss air play, it will just give terran another way of dealing with air, and so it's another thing you have to think about if you want to go air vs a terran.
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On October 24 2012 22:00 Steglich wrote:
I feel like thors already are good enough vs broodlords, at least when meching.
The 3-3 upgrades for the thor simply makes them really effective against a 0-0 broodlord. The issue is when terran goes bio, and doesn't have a huge thor count and/or great upgrades for their thors.
.. That is one of the reasons why I think terran mech i stronger than bio. Mech is also much less vulnerable against fungals.
Then you really haven't used thors before if you think they're good vs broodlords @_@ That's a situation you want to rarely be in, every Terran would rather have 4 seeker missiles than 4 thors vs brood/corruptor with vikings of course. Thor AA is terrible.
Yes, it is better than no AA at all, but it's still terrible vs massive units.
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On October 26 2012 02:22 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 19:11 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 11:44 Najda wrote:On October 25 2012 11:23 Whitewing wrote:On October 25 2012 07:27 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ. No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it ). You just say "you can balance it" but you don't explain how. If this skill is supposedly powerful enough to actually force your opponent to move out of it, then with sufficient thors, you'd effectively shut down air. Either it's useless or it's too strong, just like the strike cannon. Strike cannon without energy was way too strong, with energy it's useless. There really is no in between for things of this nature on such a beastly unit. The thor itself has too strong of a ground to ground attack, and too strong of a ground to air (at least against light) attack to also have a powerful special ability. QFT. If it's more powerful than the current AA attack, then it would be overpowered. If it was less powerful, no one would use it. No, it's a different weapon (has a different role) its not more powerful. No, it's still the same role. The thor's anti-air is already currently used for zoning with it's range and splash. I think you just really want something in the game called flak cannon.
Well, if you put it that way, almost every unit is used for zoning. The normal Thor AA makes the BL stutterstep, that's it. The flak cannons (OMG I love that word) will force them to relocate or, be blocked in their advancement.
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On October 26 2012 02:33 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 02:12 Penev wrote:On October 26 2012 01:55 rpgalon wrote:On October 26 2012 01:48 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 20:25 rpgalon wrote:the problem of zerg late game, is the infestor, not the broodlord. On October 25 2012 19:20 Decendos wrote:
bad idea. mass thor (+ some support) is already close to unbeatable and a-move only in ZvT. just remove strike cannon and the energy bar to make thors more viable TvP. can people stop saying this? Blizzard already tried this change and it did not work, it went from Thors being countered by Immortals with HT support to Thors killing everything protoss have, both in ground and air. that was stupid and so Blizz rolled the patch back. Why does this shut Protoss air vs mech down? Just because this is an anti air spell? you are right, it does not, it's just another reason to go robo instead of air. It would be nice if you at least tried to explain. Just curious, I cannot come up with any big problems.. explain what? I said you are right, this change will not shut down protoss air play, it will just give terran another way of dealing with air, and so it's another thing you have to think about if you want to go air vs a terran.
Ah, misunderstood than, sorry.
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On October 26 2012 02:43 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 02:22 Fyrewolf wrote:On October 25 2012 19:11 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 11:44 Najda wrote:On October 25 2012 11:23 Whitewing wrote:On October 25 2012 07:27 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ. No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it ). You just say "you can balance it" but you don't explain how. If this skill is supposedly powerful enough to actually force your opponent to move out of it, then with sufficient thors, you'd effectively shut down air. Either it's useless or it's too strong, just like the strike cannon. Strike cannon without energy was way too strong, with energy it's useless. There really is no in between for things of this nature on such a beastly unit. The thor itself has too strong of a ground to ground attack, and too strong of a ground to air (at least against light) attack to also have a powerful special ability. QFT. If it's more powerful than the current AA attack, then it would be overpowered. If it was less powerful, no one would use it. No, it's a different weapon (has a different role) its not more powerful. No, it's still the same role. The thor's anti-air is already currently used for zoning with it's range and splash. I think you just really want something in the game called flak cannon. Well, if you put it that way, almost every unit is used for zoning. The normal Thor AA makes the BL stutterstep, that's it. The flak cannons (OMG I love that word) will force them to relocate or, be blocked in their advancement.
Because every unit has ten range and splash for zoning? Thors aren't very good vs broodlords, but a unit shouldn't be good against everything in the first place. You are kind of supposed to take on broodlords with other air units, since their attack makes a living wall that continues to attack you and messes with the ai. Seeker missile is much better for taking on bl because it comes from an air unit. It just sucks that the range is short, and that the splash has falloff.
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On October 26 2012 02:30 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 19:11 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 11:44 Najda wrote:On October 25 2012 11:23 Whitewing wrote:On October 25 2012 07:27 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ. No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it ). You just say "you can balance it" but you don't explain how. If this skill is supposedly powerful enough to actually force your opponent to move out of it, then with sufficient thors, you'd effectively shut down air. Either it's useless or it's too strong, just like the strike cannon. Strike cannon without energy was way too strong, with energy it's useless. There really is no in between for things of this nature on such a beastly unit. The thor itself has too strong of a ground to ground attack, and too strong of a ground to air (at least against light) attack to also have a powerful special ability. QFT. If it's more powerful than the current AA attack, then it would be overpowered. If it was less powerful, no one would use it. No, it's a different weapon (has a different role) its not more powerful. If it's powerful enough to zone enemies (like broodlords as you suggest), it must be, by definition, more powerful, since the current attack is flat out insufficient for that task, unless you compensate by making it virtually useless against light air like mutalisks, which would make mech play ridiculously vulnerable to it and would be an awful idea. You can't just come up with an idea, say "it can be balanced" and then leave it at that, you need to actually explain in what way it is balanced.
Hmm, depends what you call more powerful; This will not increase dps but it will, temporarily, affect a bigger area. Furthermore, it's not just Broodlord vs Thor in the lategame is it? Both will have their full armies pitted against each other. And it isn't an instant spell. You are not going to directly hit mutas with this (if not for baller anticipation) but you could for instance, cut of their retreat path. About balancing; You want numbers?
Edit: For clarification: The cloud will do, for sake of argument, the same damage to several Broodlords at once as the normal attack does to one, so more Broodlords with health problems in the same time period; And on top of that, you're right, some extra dps should be added. I just wanted to make it clear that it shouldnt be a death cloud. Been replying to too many people I guess. My apologies.
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On October 26 2012 03:00 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 02:43 Penev wrote:On October 26 2012 02:22 Fyrewolf wrote:On October 25 2012 19:11 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 11:44 Najda wrote:On October 25 2012 11:23 Whitewing wrote:On October 25 2012 07:27 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ. No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it ). You just say "you can balance it" but you don't explain how. If this skill is supposedly powerful enough to actually force your opponent to move out of it, then with sufficient thors, you'd effectively shut down air. Either it's useless or it's too strong, just like the strike cannon. Strike cannon without energy was way too strong, with energy it's useless. There really is no in between for things of this nature on such a beastly unit. The thor itself has too strong of a ground to ground attack, and too strong of a ground to air (at least against light) attack to also have a powerful special ability. QFT. If it's more powerful than the current AA attack, then it would be overpowered. If it was less powerful, no one would use it. No, it's a different weapon (has a different role) its not more powerful. No, it's still the same role. The thor's anti-air is already currently used for zoning with it's range and splash. I think you just really want something in the game called flak cannon. Well, if you put it that way, almost every unit is used for zoning. The normal Thor AA makes the BL stutterstep, that's it. The flak cannons (OMG I love that word) will force them to relocate or, be blocked in their advancement. Because every unit has ten range and splash for zoning? Thors aren't very good vs broodlords, but a unit shouldn't be good against everything in the first place. You are kind of supposed to take on broodlords with other air units, since their attack makes a living wall that continues to attack you and messes with the ai. Seeker missile is much better for taking on bl because it comes from an air unit. It just sucks that the range is short.
This will not make the Thor good vs BL in the sense that it will shoot them down. The purpose of it is to give the Zerg a harder time to secure his position. It definitely should be an energy expensive spell for it not to be too spammable. The current problem imo is that the Zerg just bruteforces into your army. Not too much zoning going on. Seeker missile forces them to spread which is cool but it only stalls them for a short time or just kills them.
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