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Both Protoss and Terran have a hard time facing late game Broodlord, infestor, corruptor armies, with Terran specifically, being too vulnerable against the Broodlord/ Ultralisk tech switch. A lot of people propose zerg nerfs with fungal being mentioned the most but the danger of making Zerg too weak is imminent. Buffing units can obviously create new problems too, especially in the form of a hard counter (Corruptor – Colossus). But I think there is, in my humble opinion, at least for the Terran, a rather easy to implement solution for the late game Zerg problem without the risk of (further) imbalancing the game: Change the Thors strike cannons to flak cannons.
For people who don't know what I'm talking about:
![[image loading]](http://www.azcaf.org/images/b17g_crew/bombardierflaklak.jpg)
Flak fire against bombers. Broodlords are a kind of flying fortress one could argue.
The flak cannon ability will act like a non-instant psionic storm that can only hit air. It should be strong enough to force broodlords to relocate, forcing them to temporarily stop their attacks, but not strong enough to just outright kill them. It should be considered a zoning spell.
Other usages:
– Protect your Vikings by making it hard/ impossible for corruptors to attack. Not just scare them away but target certain airspace preemptively.
– Cut off escape paths for mutalisks (Broodlords and corruptors can take a punch but muta really don't want to be in a cloud of exploding shells). Again, preemptively, to trap them so your marines can stimm in and punish them.
– You can use it to save marines when there are too many muta and the Thor can also use it to help save itself and other Thors. Magic boxing will still be viable because it isn't an instant spell but it forces the zerg to pay attention.
– The infamous Broodlord Ultra tech switch will be less of a problem if at least one unit is useful against both. Flak cannons could just make the Thor this unit.
– It might even be considered a small mech buff against Protoss because it can also potentially be used to force Colossi back. It will remove the anti Immortal spell though. 
– It will make the Thor a true god of thunder.
– Terrans will actualy research the Thor upgrade.
(– Adding extra anti air to the Thor can help remove it from the Widow mine? I want a mine to be a mine, not a turret).
Balancing the Flak cannons can be done concerning AOE, duration, damage, range, cost (both energy and money) and start up, so it never should be game braking.
Just to make it perfectly clear: This should not be considered a hard counter to anything, just a tool to make things a little bit more fair in the Terran vs Zerg lategame (anyone seen the EG Master cup Empire – Dignitas yesterday? Ravens could use a little help.. <3 Incontrolls casting btw.)
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Russian Federation216 Posts
thors already have flak cannons with good range, so i just suggest to:
-change it to 2 rockets instead of 4, double damage (for same DPS) > bonus for armored
-make splash smaller
-remove thor energy for using in TvP
-AND MAKE THOR ATTACK COLOSSI AT 9 RANGE TOO, FFS IS IT SO HARDS<Dlpasd sorry <_>"
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I feel like thors already are good enough vs broodlords, at least when meching.
The 3-3 upgrades for the thor simply makes them really effective against a 0-0 broodlord. The issue is when terran goes bio, and doesn't have a huge thor count and/or great upgrades for their thors.
.. That is one of the reasons why I think terran mech i stronger than bio. Mech is also much less vulnerable against fungals.
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On October 24 2012 20:58 Fen1kz wrote:thors already have flak cannons with good range, so i just suggest to: -change it to 2 rockets instead of 4, double damage (for same DPS) > bonus for armored -make splash smaller -remove thor energy for using in TvP -AND MAKE THOR ATTACK COLOSSI AT 9 RANGE TOO, FFS IS IT SO HARDS<Dlpasd sorry <_>"
The fact that the Thor can hit air doesn't mean it has flak cannons. This ability is for zoning specifically; To force the opponents air force to be somewhere else. Because you know where the cloud of exploding shells will be you can anticipate on the enemy's movements for instance. Your change is much harder to balance because it can potentially make Broodlords obsolete. Mine just forces Zerg to micro them more.
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On October 24 2012 22:00 Steglich wrote:
I feel like thors already are good enough vs broodlords, at least when meching.
The 3-3 upgrades for the thor simply makes them really effective against a 0-0 broodlord. The issue is when terran goes bio, and doesn't have a huge thor count and/or great upgrades for their thors.
.. That is one of the reasons why I think terran mech i stronger than bio. Mech is also much less vulnerable against fungals.
If the Zerg has enough Broodlords the Thors will always lose. The sheer amount of Broodlings are too much to overcome. This ability will force the Zerg to pause their attack, stop the flood of Broodlings. It's not meant to kill them of.
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On October 24 2012 22:52 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 22:00 Steglich wrote:
I feel like thors already are good enough vs broodlords, at least when meching.
The 3-3 upgrades for the thor simply makes them really effective against a 0-0 broodlord. The issue is when terran goes bio, and doesn't have a huge thor count and/or great upgrades for their thors.
.. That is one of the reasons why I think terran mech i stronger than bio. Mech is also much less vulnerable against fungals. If the Zerg has enough Broodlords the Thors will always lose. The sheer amount of Broodlings are too much to overcome. This ability will force the Zerg to pause their attack, stop the flood of Broodlings. It's not meant to kill them of.
actually I find that it is the other way around. When the terran has enough thors, he can pretty much one shot broodlords + splash.
Thors have range 10 AA, Blords have range 9,5.
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United States7483 Posts
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ.
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This is the greatest solution I have ever heard.
Its so simple I feel like an idiot not having thought of it.
Mech Terran tends to struggle even with mass thor against Broodlords because Zerg will just make more Broodlords and brute force himself into a victory. This change would make strike cannons usuable.
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It freaking overlaps with the Thor's normal AA attack. Both do good aoe damage. The rest of the ideas behind the ability are good, but the fact that it overlaps so much, makes it bad.
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On October 25 2012 03:25 imPermanenCe wrote:
It freaking overlaps with the Thor's normal AA attack. Both do good aoe damage. The rest of the ideas behind the ability are good, but the fact that it overlaps so much, makes it bad.
It's true that the ability overlaps with the standard AA and I initially (automatically) also thought of that as a bad thing but after thinking about it a bit more .. it actually isn't really. It's a completely separate thing; When the flak cannon mode initializes the Thor cannot use any of its other attacks.
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On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ.
No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it  ).
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On October 25 2012 03:20 Zombo Joe wrote:
This is the greatest solution I have ever heard.
Its so simple I feel like an idiot not having thought of it.
Mech Terran tends to struggle even with mass thor against Broodlords because Zerg will just make more Broodlords and brute force himself into a victory. This change would make strike cannons usuable.
Thanks! But.. Flak cannons. 
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This a good ability
It can be balanced later
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On October 25 2012 03:25 imPermanenCe wrote:
It freaking overlaps with the Thor's normal AA attack. Both do good aoe damage. The rest of the ideas behind the ability are good, but the fact that it overlaps so much, makes it bad.
Just thought of another thing; Would it make you feel better if the normal attack and the spell attack are the same weapon? So either both the rocket AA or both cannons with the standard attack doing what it's doing now (direct hits with splash) and the spell doing what I describe in the OP?
Edit: To make it clear, that way the spell is just another mode for the AA weapon. If rockets: Normal mode is always hit + little splash, special mode is make a significant area a place you do not want to be in or quickly want to get out of.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 25 2012 07:27 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ. No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it ).
You just say "you can balance it" but you don't explain how. If this skill is supposedly powerful enough to actually force your opponent to move out of it, then with sufficient thors, you'd effectively shut down air. Either it's useless or it's too strong, just like the strike cannon. Strike cannon without energy was way too strong, with energy it's useless. There really is no in between for things of this nature on such a beastly unit.
The thor itself has too strong of a ground to ground attack, and too strong of a ground to air (at least against light) attack to also have a powerful special ability.
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On October 25 2012 11:23 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 07:27 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ. No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it ). You just say "you can balance it" but you don't explain how. If this skill is supposedly powerful enough to actually force your opponent to move out of it, then with sufficient thors, you'd effectively shut down air. Either it's useless or it's too strong, just like the strike cannon. Strike cannon without energy was way too strong, with energy it's useless. There really is no in between for things of this nature on such a beastly unit. The thor itself has too strong of a ground to ground attack, and too strong of a ground to air (at least against light) attack to also have a powerful special ability.
QFT. If it's more powerful than the current AA attack, then it would be overpowered. If it was less powerful, no one would use it.
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I believe the best fix is learning to play. Spending more time practicing and less time whining on forums. It's worked like a charm for the top Koreans. Protoss have carriers which hard counters all T3 units zerg has, all 2 of them. Terran have a whole plethora of choices. Some good players don't even bother making air units.
Personally I've never had problems against broodlords. That weren't caused by my own misstakes in the game before they appeared. I guess objective self evaluation is even less common than common sense ^^
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give the thor the role of the original warhound (siege breaker) increas ground range to 7, remove its aa attack and give it a long range (16) target ground missle attack with a minimum range (8). bam epic siege breaker.
bring back warhound with less ground attack and a weaker version of the thor's old AA attack
BAM you have your mobile AA aoe zoning earlier and your anti ground terror THOR is something to feared.
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On October 25 2012 11:23 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 07:27 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ. No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it ). You just say "you can balance it" but you don't explain how. If this skill is supposedly powerful enough to actually force your opponent to move out of it, then with sufficient thors, you'd effectively shut down air. Either it's useless or it's too strong, just like the strike cannon. Strike cannon without energy was way too strong, with energy it's useless. There really is no in between for things of this nature on such a beastly unit. The thor itself has too strong of a ground to ground attack, and too strong of a ground to air (at least against light) attack to also have a powerful special ability.
Don't forget how the ability works; It has a start up time, the opponent can see the cannons initiating and anticipate where the flak fire is going to be (and you anticipating that, which can potentionally make for excitement). But more importantly: The Thor is completely vulnerable during the spell. It trades its normal attacks for the ability. Balancing through duration comes first to mind. Strike cannons are very powerful for a short time, "balanced" to destroy not really for zoning. They of course too, could be made like that.
The Zerg can choose to leave his Broodlords in the cloud to snipe the spell casting Thor (if succesful the spell obviously immidiately stops); Full health Broodlords will survive that. In the meantime however, they are under attack by Vikings. The Zerg is forced to make a decision instead of just go for the bruteforce method. Just to be clear: I'm (mostly) a Zerg.
Also: It's a possibility to nerf some other apects of the Thor if needed.
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On October 25 2012 13:05 oZe wrote:
I believe the best fix is learning to play. Spending more time practicing and less time whining on forums. It's worked like a charm for the top Koreans. Protoss have carriers which hard counters all T3 units zerg has, all 2 of them. Terran have a whole plethora of choices. Some good players don't even bother making air units.
Personally I've never had problems against broodlords. That weren't caused by my own misstakes in the game before they appeared. I guess objective self evaluation is even less common than common sense ^^
You obviously are right about practicing and whining (although I hope you do not think I'm whining here). The change is not just meant to fix an imbalance (Lategame TvZ, don't just look at the win/ loss percentages, not saying you do) but also to make for more interesting play.
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EPT
