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Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28463 Posts
October 25 2012 10:11 GMT
#21
On October 25 2012 11:44 Najda wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2012 11:23 Whitewing wrote:
On October 25 2012 07:27 Penev wrote:
On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ.

No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it ).


You just say "you can balance it" but you don't explain how. If this skill is supposedly powerful enough to actually force your opponent to move out of it, then with sufficient thors, you'd effectively shut down air. Either it's useless or it's too strong, just like the strike cannon. Strike cannon without energy was way too strong, with energy it's useless. There really is no in between for things of this nature on such a beastly unit.

The thor itself has too strong of a ground to ground attack, and too strong of a ground to air (at least against light) attack to also have a powerful special ability.


QFT. If it's more powerful than the current AA attack, then it would be overpowered. If it was less powerful, no one would use it.

No, it's a different weapon (has a different role) its not more powerful.
I Protoss winner, could it be?
Decendos
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany1338 Posts
October 25 2012 10:20 GMT
#22
bad idea. mass thor (+ some support) is already close to unbeatable and a-move only in ZvT. just remove strike cannon and the energy bar to make thors more viable TvP.
DjayEl
Profile Joined August 2010
France252 Posts
October 25 2012 10:24 GMT
#23
These kind of anti-air canons are not a bad idea, and they don't need to be just a "stronger" version of their base attack.

What if the Thor could "deploy" heavy anti-air canons just as siege tanks do, becoming rooted to the ground? The cannons should be a strong non-AOE (or minimal AOE) anti-air shot with relatively long cooldown that has a heavy bonus against armored/massive. While in this mode Thors should not be able to use standard weapons. Switching modes should have a cooldown similar to siege tanks.

This would allow the following:

- Encourage positional play
- Immunity to broodlings messing up with the attack (as in this state Thors could only hit air)
- Not stronger vs flocks of light flying unis (like mutas, which could be used to attack Thors that are in these positions, encouraging hit & run tactics)
- Increase overall DPS against corruptors, broodlords and colossi
- Make actual use of these heavy canons the unit is relentlessly carrying on its back since WoL beta and which only purpose is to enable its owner to be feedbacked (bad design anyone?)
- Not useful when used en masse (like with full thor mech) because of the immobility and unability to deal vs ground

Please let me know I you think it's a terrible idea.
thimius
Profile Joined May 2012
Sweden29 Posts
October 25 2012 10:55 GMT
#24
I disagree with this suggestion, making mutas even less viable than they currently are vs mech is simply ridiculous. It's a good idea but i think it simply affects mutas too much and will make them go from unviable, to completely useless. I like the idea of a zoning spell tho allthough it would have to be really slow dmg because broods are REALLY slow, so doing too much damage would just rape broods too hard
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28463 Posts
October 25 2012 10:57 GMT
#25
On October 25 2012 19:20 Decendos wrote:
bad idea. mass thor (+ some support) is already close to unbeatable and a-move only in ZvT. just remove strike cannon and the energy bar to make thors more viable TvP.

Please read the OP and thread more closely. This will not necessarily make the Thor more powerful; It ads an ability to it (while removing another, much more silly one) that can brake Zerg siegelines if you will, without destroying it. It forces relocation and micro. If you think that Thors are overpowered than you are talking about its normal attacks. The flak cannons have nothing to do with that.
I Protoss winner, could it be?
Umpteen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1570 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-25 12:13:20
October 25 2012 11:07 GMT
#26
On October 24 2012 20:04 Penev wrote:
– You can use it to save a marine when there are too many muta


Fixed that for you.

Edit: I'm officially HD! (1080p)
The existence of a food chain is inescapable if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28463 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-25 17:23:23
October 25 2012 11:19 GMT
#27
On October 25 2012 19:24 DjayEl wrote:
These kind of anti-air canons are not a bad idea, and they don't need to be just a "stronger" version of their base attack.

What if the Thor could "deploy" heavy anti-air canons just as siege tanks do, becoming rooted to the ground? The cannons should be a strong non-AOE (or minimal AOE) anti-air shot with relatively long cooldown that has a heavy bonus against armored/massive. While in this mode Thors should not be able to use standard weapons. Switching modes should have a cooldown similar to siege tanks.

This would allow the following:

- Encourage positional play
- Immunity to broodlings messing up with the attack (as in this state Thors could only hit air)
- Not stronger vs flocks of light flying unis (like mutas, which could be used to attack Thors that are in these positions, encouraging hit & run tactics)
- Increase overall DPS against corruptors, broodlords and colossi
- Make actual use of these heavy canons the unit is relentlessly carrying on its back since WoL beta and which only purpose is to enable its owner to be feedbacked (bad design anyone?)
- Not useful when used en masse (like with full thor mech) because of the immobility and unability to deal vs ground

Please let me know I you think it's a terrible idea.

Cooldown or energy are really the same if you think about it; It's just that energy can be feadbacked/ EMP'd. I certainly do not dislike your idea but it definitely needs a long cooldown (otherwise it would make it too easy to leapfrog). I prefer energy because of the spells against it btw; More dynamic. The vulnerability during your siegemode and my flak cannon spell (long duration) is what some people do not seem to take into account unfortunately. Speaking of my proposal; It doesn't make the Thor any stronger, it just ads deph to the gameplay. Let me think about yours more (I'm at work now). Again: Certainly not terrible though.. Hmm..

Edit: The seige mode is interesting but I don't think higher dps against air is the way to go.
I Protoss winner, could it be?
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28463 Posts
October 25 2012 11:23 GMT
#28
On October 25 2012 19:55 thimius wrote:
I disagree with this suggestion, making mutas even less viable than they currently are vs mech is simply ridiculous. It's a good idea but i think it simply affects mutas too much and will make them go from unviable, to completely useless. I like the idea of a zoning spell tho allthough it would have to be really slow dmg because broods are REALLY slow, so doing too much damage would just rape broods too hard

Imagine it to be long duration, slow damage. So mutas are fine too because they are fast; They just have to make sure they don't get trapped. Also: It's not instant, its not like storm.
I Protoss winner, could it be?
rpgalon
Profile Joined April 2011
Brazil1069 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-25 17:35:18
October 25 2012 11:25 GMT
#29
EDIT:well, this change makes going air as protoss less desirable but whatever.

I still think the problem of zerg late game, is the infestor, not the broodlord.

On October 25 2012 19:20 Decendos wrote:
bad idea. mass thor (+ some support) is already close to unbeatable and a-move only in ZvT. just remove strike cannon and the energy bar to make thors more viable TvP.


can people stop saying this? Blizzard already tried this change and it did not work, it went from Thors being countered by Immortals with HT support to Thors killing everything protoss have, both in ground and air.
that was stupid and so Blizz rolled the patch back.
badog
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
October 25 2012 12:41 GMT
#30
meh, just buff thor air attack against non-light by 1 or 2. That way it remains the same against light and get's slighty better against non-light, ie still shit but decent enough against large flocks of stacked armored units like vikings or broodlords.

A slight fungal nerf is already expected to be coming though, maybe a slow instead of rooting or just a very small infestor nerf, perhaps increasing duration a bit again making it less spammable as a damage spell. (i'd vote to increase duration from 4 to 6 seconds and just letting it slow by 80% instead of rooting).

It would be good if thors had some use against air making mech as a whole more playable
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19214 Posts
October 25 2012 13:14 GMT
#31
On October 24 2012 22:00 Steglich wrote:
I feel like thors already are good enough vs broodlords, at least when meching.
The 3-3 upgrades for the thor simply makes them really effective against a 0-0 broodlord. The issue is when terran goes bio, and doesn't have a huge thor count and/or great upgrades for their thors.

.. That is one of the reasons why I think terran mech i stronger than bio. Mech is also much less vulnerable against fungals.

This statement confuses me. Your saying that zerg forgot to get upgrades therefor the thor is too strong? That just means zerg played poor.

I think the easiest fix that blizzard could do is remove the energy mechanic to prevent feedback. Or have feedback do less against massive.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
DKR
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom622 Posts
October 25 2012 13:17 GMT
#32
You'd be pigeonholing the Thor into a AA role. Currently the Thor has a lot of utility and there's no way Blizzard would increase the ability to kill air without sacrificing anything in terms of it's ground attacks.

Fighting Blords with Thors is about picking the right time to engage, as it should be. Viking, Thor Hellion late game Mech TvZ is an awesome thing to see and use.
"1 base. Cheese man." - MKP. "[MVP] is not stylistic, his style is winning, which is the style you want to have." - Artosis
rpgalon
Profile Joined April 2011
Brazil1069 Posts
October 25 2012 13:22 GMT
#33
On October 25 2012 21:41 Markwerf wrote:
meh, just buff thor air attack against non-light by 1 or 2. That way it remains the same against light and get's slighty better against non-light, ie still shit but decent enough against large flocks of stacked armored units like vikings or broodlords.

A slight fungal nerf is already expected to be coming though, maybe a slow instead of rooting or just a very small infestor nerf, perhaps increasing duration a bit again making it less spammable as a damage spell. (i'd vote to increase duration from 4 to 6 seconds and just letting it slow by 80% instead of rooting).

It would be good if thors had some use against air making mech as a whole more playable

I want to see a IT energy increase from 25 to 50, the utility and strength that IT bring to the table is stupid, a spellcaster should not be able to bring 8 Buffed Marines (~80 dps) that can kill any unit/structure and completely demolish an expansion.

I hope they buff hydras, vipers and ultralisks just so they can nerf infestor HARD without destroying zerg.
yeah, I hate those fat bugs.
badog
Decendos
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany1338 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-25 13:47:01
October 25 2012 13:42 GMT
#34
On October 25 2012 19:57 Penev wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2012 19:20 Decendos wrote:
bad idea. mass thor (+ some support) is already close to unbeatable and a-move only in ZvT. just remove strike cannon and the energy bar to make thors more viable TvP.

Please read the OP and thread more closely. This will not necessarily make the Thor more powerful; It ads an ability to it (while removing another, much more silly one) that can brake Zerg siegelines if you will, without destroying it. It forces relocation and micro. If you think that Thors are overpowered than you are talking about its normal attacks. The flak cannons have nothing to do with that.


i read the OP. you want to give the thor an anti-armour air cannon instead of the strike cannon, so you want to buff the thor. i say thats a bad thing since especially with widow mines and BHs mass thor + x gets even stronger in HOTS and the only way to deal with it are BLs. and even with BLs a mass thor + x army with mass repair has a very good chance of killing the zerg army.

terran has no lategame problem vs BLs if they go mech. the problem is if terran goes marine tank or pure bio and faces BL infestor. so terran needs a buff to raven and/or BCs and not to the already superstrong mass thor + x a-move builds (which should get nerfed instead of even buffed more).

On October 25 2012 22:22 rpgalon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2012 21:41 Markwerf wrote:
meh, just buff thor air attack against non-light by 1 or 2. That way it remains the same against light and get's slighty better against non-light, ie still shit but decent enough against large flocks of stacked armored units like vikings or broodlords.

A slight fungal nerf is already expected to be coming though, maybe a slow instead of rooting or just a very small infestor nerf, perhaps increasing duration a bit again making it less spammable as a damage spell. (i'd vote to increase duration from 4 to 6 seconds and just letting it slow by 80% instead of rooting).

It would be good if thors had some use against air making mech as a whole more playable

I want to see a IT energy increase from 25 to 50, the utility and strength that IT bring to the table is stupid, a spellcaster should not be able to bring 8 Buffed Marines (~80 dps) that can kill any unit/structure and completely demolish an expansion.

I hope they buff hydras, vipers and ultralisks just so they can nerf infestor HARD without destroying zerg.
yeah, I hate those fat bugs.


oh how awesome that would be! zerg here and i hate to play infestor only into BL infestor because everything else sucks (and got even worse in HOTS: ultra bane ling is much worse because of widow mines and BH, mutas are much worse because of widow mines, swarm hosts locusts get raped by BH + tanks + widow mines etc. so again its infestor into BL infestor time...). not talking about zvp since everything else than BL infestor gets raped even more than zvt. they really need to fix zerg mid and lategame by nerfing infestor and buffing hydras, ultras, vipers and lategame locusts.
KrazyTrumpet
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2520 Posts
October 25 2012 14:25 GMT
#35
On October 25 2012 22:42 Decendos wrote:

oh how awesome that would be! zerg here and i hate to play infestor only into BL infestor because everything else sucks (and got even worse in HOTS: ultra bane ling is much worse because of widow mines and BH, mutas are much worse because of widow mines, swarm hosts locusts get raped by BH + tanks + widow mines etc. so again its infestor into BL infestor time...). not talking about zvp since everything else than BL infestor gets raped even more than zvt. they really need to fix zerg mid and lategame by nerfing infestor and buffing hydras, ultras, vipers and lategame locusts.


If you are losing with swarm hosts, you didn't make enough swarm hosts haha
www.twitch.tv/krazy Best Stream Quality NA @KClarkSC2
HypertonicHydroponic
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
437 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-25 14:28:05
October 25 2012 14:25 GMT
#36
On October 25 2012 03:25 imPermanenCe wrote:
It freaking overlaps with the Thor's normal AA attack. Both do good aoe damage. The rest of the ideas behind the ability are good, but the fact that it overlaps so much, makes it bad.

I'm not sure how this makes it any worse than the current ability which no one gets because it almost entirely overlaps with it's ground attack with the following wonderful exceptions:
1) Stuns the target (but not all).
2) Imposes a fungal in itself for the duration once cast (i.e. roots itself).
3) Does not have upgradeable damage to the point where it's upgrades to its main ground attack actually makes spending anything on the ability make just about zero sense except as a way to maybe use up some energy before being feedbacked.

So, if this thing has any chance to be useful, why not give it a shot? Overlapping with an attack is the least of our worried, been there, do...ing that.

Edit: of course, there could be better options, I'm just saying this ones is not necessarily bad based solely on this argument.
[P] The Watery Archives -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=279070
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28463 Posts
October 25 2012 16:48 GMT
#37
On October 25 2012 20:25 rpgalon wrote:
This change shuts down the so wanted protoss AIR vs Mech, and makes protoss robo play the only viable choice in TvP (which is already the case in WoL).

the problem of zerg late game, is the infestor, not the broodlord.

Show nested quote +
On October 25 2012 19:20 Decendos wrote:
bad idea. mass thor (+ some support) is already close to unbeatable and a-move only in ZvT. just remove strike cannon and the energy bar to make thors more viable TvP.


can people stop saying this? Blizzard already tried this change and it did not work, it went from Thors being countered by Immortals with HT support to Thors killing everything protoss have, both in ground and air.
that was stupid and so Blizz rolled the patch back.

Why does this shut Protoss air vs mech down? Just because this is an anti air spell?
I Protoss winner, could it be?
rpgalon
Profile Joined April 2011
Brazil1069 Posts
October 25 2012 16:55 GMT
#38
On October 26 2012 01:48 Penev wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2012 20:25 rpgalon wrote:
This change shuts down the so wanted protoss AIR vs Mech, and makes protoss robo play the only viable choice in TvP (which is already the case in WoL).

the problem of zerg late game, is the infestor, not the broodlord.

On October 25 2012 19:20 Decendos wrote:
bad idea. mass thor (+ some support) is already close to unbeatable and a-move only in ZvT. just remove strike cannon and the energy bar to make thors more viable TvP.


can people stop saying this? Blizzard already tried this change and it did not work, it went from Thors being countered by Immortals with HT support to Thors killing everything protoss have, both in ground and air.
that was stupid and so Blizz rolled the patch back.

Why does this shut Protoss air vs mech down? Just because this is an anti air spell?

you are right, it does not, it's just another reason to go robo instead of air.
badog
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28463 Posts
October 25 2012 17:00 GMT
#39
On October 25 2012 21:41 Markwerf wrote:
meh, just buff thor air attack against non-light by 1 or 2. That way it remains the same against light and get's slighty better against non-light, ie still shit but decent enough against large flocks of stacked armored units like vikings or broodlords.

A slight fungal nerf is already expected to be coming though, maybe a slow instead of rooting or just a very small infestor nerf, perhaps increasing duration a bit again making it less spammable as a damage spell. (i'd vote to increase duration from 4 to 6 seconds and just letting it slow by 80% instead of rooting).

It would be good if thors had some use against air making mech as a whole more playable

What you are suggesting is exactly how you would make the Thor overpowered. There is a reason why I chose the zoning spell. The fungal nerfs are often suggested and with good reason of course. My personal take is to have it slow massive and air units, stackable so that a massive air unit like the carrier is least affected. But it is tricky; Zerg is fragile.
I Protoss winner, could it be?
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28463 Posts
October 25 2012 17:10 GMT
#40
On October 25 2012 22:42 Decendos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2012 19:57 Penev wrote:
On October 25 2012 19:20 Decendos wrote:
bad idea. mass thor (+ some support) is already close to unbeatable and a-move only in ZvT. just remove strike cannon and the energy bar to make thors more viable TvP.

Please read the OP and thread more closely. This will not necessarily make the Thor more powerful; It ads an ability to it (while removing another, much more silly one) that can brake Zerg siegelines if you will, without destroying it. It forces relocation and micro. If you think that Thors are overpowered than you are talking about its normal attacks. The flak cannons have nothing to do with that.


i read the OP. you want to give the thor an anti-armour air cannon instead of the strike cannon, so you want to buff the thor. i say thats a bad thing since especially with widow mines and BHs mass thor + x gets even stronger in HOTS and the only way to deal with it are BLs. and even with BLs a mass thor + x army with mass repair has a very good chance of killing the zerg army.

terran has no lategame problem vs BLs if they go mech. the problem is if terran goes marine tank or pure bio and faces BL infestor. so terran needs a buff to raven and/or BCs and not to the already superstrong mass thor + x a-move builds (which should get nerfed instead of even buffed more).

Show nested quote +
On October 25 2012 22:22 rpgalon wrote:
On October 25 2012 21:41 Markwerf wrote:
meh, just buff thor air attack against non-light by 1 or 2. That way it remains the same against light and get's slighty better against non-light, ie still shit but decent enough against large flocks of stacked armored units like vikings or broodlords.

A slight fungal nerf is already expected to be coming though, maybe a slow instead of rooting or just a very small infestor nerf, perhaps increasing duration a bit again making it less spammable as a damage spell. (i'd vote to increase duration from 4 to 6 seconds and just letting it slow by 80% instead of rooting).

It would be good if thors had some use against air making mech as a whole more playable

I want to see a IT energy increase from 25 to 50, the utility and strength that IT bring to the table is stupid, a spellcaster should not be able to bring 8 Buffed Marines (~80 dps) that can kill any unit/structure and completely demolish an expansion.

I hope they buff hydras, vipers and ultralisks just so they can nerf infestor HARD without destroying zerg.
yeah, I hate those fat bugs.


oh how awesome that would be! zerg here and i hate to play infestor only into BL infestor because everything else sucks (and got even worse in HOTS: ultra bane ling is much worse because of widow mines and BH, mutas are much worse because of widow mines, swarm hosts locusts get raped by BH + tanks + widow mines etc. so again its infestor into BL infestor time...). not talking about zvp since everything else than BL infestor gets raped even more than zvt. they really need to fix zerg mid and lategame by nerfing infestor and buffing hydras, ultras, vipers and lategame locusts.

Well, I'm sorry but where did you read anti-armour? While using the spell (with long duration) the normal weapons aren't used. What I imagine to happen is that the Zerg has to seize fire temporarily (because he's relocating his Broodlords) giving the Terran the chance to get a better position or retreat more safely.
I Protoss winner, could it be?
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