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Both Protoss and Terran have a hard time facing late game Broodlord, infestor, corruptor armies, with Terran specifically, being too vulnerable against the Broodlord/ Ultralisk tech switch. A lot of people propose zerg nerfs with fungal being mentioned the most but the danger of making Zerg too weak is imminent. Buffing units can obviously create new problems too, especially in the form of a hard counter (Corruptor – Colossus). But I think there is, in my humble opinion, at least for the Terran, a rather easy to implement solution for the late game Zerg problem without the risk of (further) imbalancing the game: Change the Thors strike cannons to flak cannons.
For people who don't know what I'm talking about:
![[image loading]](http://www.azcaf.org/images/b17g_crew/bombardierflaklak.jpg)
Flak fire against bombers. Broodlords are a kind of flying fortress one could argue.
The flak cannon ability will act like a non-instant psionic storm that can only hit air. It should be strong enough to force broodlords to relocate, forcing them to temporarily stop their attacks, but not strong enough to just outright kill them. It should be considered a zoning spell.
Other usages:
– Protect your Vikings by making it hard/ impossible for corruptors to attack. Not just scare them away but target certain airspace preemptively.
– Cut off escape paths for mutalisks (Broodlords and corruptors can take a punch but muta really don't want to be in a cloud of exploding shells). Again, preemptively, to trap them so your marines can stimm in and punish them.
– You can use it to save marines when there are too many muta and the Thor can also use it to help save itself and other Thors. Magic boxing will still be viable because it isn't an instant spell but it forces the zerg to pay attention.
– The infamous Broodlord Ultra tech switch will be less of a problem if at least one unit is useful against both. Flak cannons could just make the Thor this unit.
– It might even be considered a small mech buff against Protoss because it can also potentially be used to force Colossi back. It will remove the anti Immortal spell though. 
– It will make the Thor a true god of thunder.
– Terrans will actualy research the Thor upgrade.
(– Adding extra anti air to the Thor can help remove it from the Widow mine? I want a mine to be a mine, not a turret).
Balancing the Flak cannons can be done concerning AOE, duration, damage, range, cost (both energy and money) and start up, so it never should be game braking.
Just to make it perfectly clear: This should not be considered a hard counter to anything, just a tool to make things a little bit more fair in the Terran vs Zerg lategame (anyone seen the EG Master cup Empire – Dignitas yesterday? Ravens could use a little help.. <3 Incontrolls casting btw.)
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Russian Federation216 Posts
thors already have flak cannons with good range, so i just suggest to:
-change it to 2 rockets instead of 4, double damage (for same DPS) > bonus for armored
-make splash smaller
-remove thor energy for using in TvP
-AND MAKE THOR ATTACK COLOSSI AT 9 RANGE TOO, FFS IS IT SO HARDS<Dlpasd sorry <_>"
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I feel like thors already are good enough vs broodlords, at least when meching.
The 3-3 upgrades for the thor simply makes them really effective against a 0-0 broodlord. The issue is when terran goes bio, and doesn't have a huge thor count and/or great upgrades for their thors.
.. That is one of the reasons why I think terran mech i stronger than bio. Mech is also much less vulnerable against fungals.
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On October 24 2012 20:58 Fen1kz wrote:thors already have flak cannons with good range, so i just suggest to: -change it to 2 rockets instead of 4, double damage (for same DPS) > bonus for armored -make splash smaller -remove thor energy for using in TvP -AND MAKE THOR ATTACK COLOSSI AT 9 RANGE TOO, FFS IS IT SO HARDS<Dlpasd sorry <_>"
The fact that the Thor can hit air doesn't mean it has flak cannons. This ability is for zoning specifically; To force the opponents air force to be somewhere else. Because you know where the cloud of exploding shells will be you can anticipate on the enemy's movements for instance. Your change is much harder to balance because it can potentially make Broodlords obsolete. Mine just forces Zerg to micro them more.
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On October 24 2012 22:00 Steglich wrote:
I feel like thors already are good enough vs broodlords, at least when meching.
The 3-3 upgrades for the thor simply makes them really effective against a 0-0 broodlord. The issue is when terran goes bio, and doesn't have a huge thor count and/or great upgrades for their thors.
.. That is one of the reasons why I think terran mech i stronger than bio. Mech is also much less vulnerable against fungals.
If the Zerg has enough Broodlords the Thors will always lose. The sheer amount of Broodlings are too much to overcome. This ability will force the Zerg to pause their attack, stop the flood of Broodlings. It's not meant to kill them of.
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On October 24 2012 22:52 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 22:00 Steglich wrote:
I feel like thors already are good enough vs broodlords, at least when meching.
The 3-3 upgrades for the thor simply makes them really effective against a 0-0 broodlord. The issue is when terran goes bio, and doesn't have a huge thor count and/or great upgrades for their thors.
.. That is one of the reasons why I think terran mech i stronger than bio. Mech is also much less vulnerable against fungals. If the Zerg has enough Broodlords the Thors will always lose. The sheer amount of Broodlings are too much to overcome. This ability will force the Zerg to pause their attack, stop the flood of Broodlings. It's not meant to kill them of.
actually I find that it is the other way around. When the terran has enough thors, he can pretty much one shot broodlords + splash.
Thors have range 10 AA, Blords have range 9,5.
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United States7483 Posts
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ.
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This is the greatest solution I have ever heard.
Its so simple I feel like an idiot not having thought of it.
Mech Terran tends to struggle even with mass thor against Broodlords because Zerg will just make more Broodlords and brute force himself into a victory. This change would make strike cannons usuable.
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It freaking overlaps with the Thor's normal AA attack. Both do good aoe damage. The rest of the ideas behind the ability are good, but the fact that it overlaps so much, makes it bad.
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On October 25 2012 03:25 imPermanenCe wrote:
It freaking overlaps with the Thor's normal AA attack. Both do good aoe damage. The rest of the ideas behind the ability are good, but the fact that it overlaps so much, makes it bad.
It's true that the ability overlaps with the standard AA and I initially (automatically) also thought of that as a bad thing but after thinking about it a bit more .. it actually isn't really. It's a completely separate thing; When the flak cannon mode initializes the Thor cannot use any of its other attacks.
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On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ.
No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it  ).
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On October 25 2012 03:20 Zombo Joe wrote:
This is the greatest solution I have ever heard.
Its so simple I feel like an idiot not having thought of it.
Mech Terran tends to struggle even with mass thor against Broodlords because Zerg will just make more Broodlords and brute force himself into a victory. This change would make strike cannons usuable.
Thanks! But.. Flak cannons. 
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This a good ability
It can be balanced later
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On October 25 2012 03:25 imPermanenCe wrote:
It freaking overlaps with the Thor's normal AA attack. Both do good aoe damage. The rest of the ideas behind the ability are good, but the fact that it overlaps so much, makes it bad.
Just thought of another thing; Would it make you feel better if the normal attack and the spell attack are the same weapon? So either both the rocket AA or both cannons with the standard attack doing what it's doing now (direct hits with splash) and the spell doing what I describe in the OP?
Edit: To make it clear, that way the spell is just another mode for the AA weapon. If rockets: Normal mode is always hit + little splash, special mode is make a significant area a place you do not want to be in or quickly want to get out of.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 25 2012 07:27 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ. No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it ).
You just say "you can balance it" but you don't explain how. If this skill is supposedly powerful enough to actually force your opponent to move out of it, then with sufficient thors, you'd effectively shut down air. Either it's useless or it's too strong, just like the strike cannon. Strike cannon without energy was way too strong, with energy it's useless. There really is no in between for things of this nature on such a beastly unit.
The thor itself has too strong of a ground to ground attack, and too strong of a ground to air (at least against light) attack to also have a powerful special ability.
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On October 25 2012 11:23 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 07:27 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ. No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it ). You just say "you can balance it" but you don't explain how. If this skill is supposedly powerful enough to actually force your opponent to move out of it, then with sufficient thors, you'd effectively shut down air. Either it's useless or it's too strong, just like the strike cannon. Strike cannon without energy was way too strong, with energy it's useless. There really is no in between for things of this nature on such a beastly unit. The thor itself has too strong of a ground to ground attack, and too strong of a ground to air (at least against light) attack to also have a powerful special ability.
QFT. If it's more powerful than the current AA attack, then it would be overpowered. If it was less powerful, no one would use it.
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I believe the best fix is learning to play. Spending more time practicing and less time whining on forums. It's worked like a charm for the top Koreans. Protoss have carriers which hard counters all T3 units zerg has, all 2 of them. Terran have a whole plethora of choices. Some good players don't even bother making air units.
Personally I've never had problems against broodlords. That weren't caused by my own misstakes in the game before they appeared. I guess objective self evaluation is even less common than common sense ^^
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give the thor the role of the original warhound (siege breaker) increas ground range to 7, remove its aa attack and give it a long range (16) target ground missle attack with a minimum range (8). bam epic siege breaker.
bring back warhound with less ground attack and a weaker version of the thor's old AA attack
BAM you have your mobile AA aoe zoning earlier and your anti ground terror THOR is something to feared.
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On October 25 2012 11:23 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 07:27 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ. No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it ). You just say "you can balance it" but you don't explain how. If this skill is supposedly powerful enough to actually force your opponent to move out of it, then with sufficient thors, you'd effectively shut down air. Either it's useless or it's too strong, just like the strike cannon. Strike cannon without energy was way too strong, with energy it's useless. There really is no in between for things of this nature on such a beastly unit. The thor itself has too strong of a ground to ground attack, and too strong of a ground to air (at least against light) attack to also have a powerful special ability.
Don't forget how the ability works; It has a start up time, the opponent can see the cannons initiating and anticipate where the flak fire is going to be (and you anticipating that, which can potentionally make for excitement). But more importantly: The Thor is completely vulnerable during the spell. It trades its normal attacks for the ability. Balancing through duration comes first to mind. Strike cannons are very powerful for a short time, "balanced" to destroy not really for zoning. They of course too, could be made like that.
The Zerg can choose to leave his Broodlords in the cloud to snipe the spell casting Thor (if succesful the spell obviously immidiately stops); Full health Broodlords will survive that. In the meantime however, they are under attack by Vikings. The Zerg is forced to make a decision instead of just go for the bruteforce method. Just to be clear: I'm (mostly) a Zerg.
Also: It's a possibility to nerf some other apects of the Thor if needed.
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On October 25 2012 13:05 oZe wrote:
I believe the best fix is learning to play. Spending more time practicing and less time whining on forums. It's worked like a charm for the top Koreans. Protoss have carriers which hard counters all T3 units zerg has, all 2 of them. Terran have a whole plethora of choices. Some good players don't even bother making air units.
Personally I've never had problems against broodlords. That weren't caused by my own misstakes in the game before they appeared. I guess objective self evaluation is even less common than common sense ^^
You obviously are right about practicing and whining (although I hope you do not think I'm whining here). The change is not just meant to fix an imbalance (Lategame TvZ, don't just look at the win/ loss percentages, not saying you do) but also to make for more interesting play.
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On October 25 2012 11:44 Najda wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 11:23 Whitewing wrote:On October 25 2012 07:27 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ. No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it ). You just say "you can balance it" but you don't explain how. If this skill is supposedly powerful enough to actually force your opponent to move out of it, then with sufficient thors, you'd effectively shut down air. Either it's useless or it's too strong, just like the strike cannon. Strike cannon without energy was way too strong, with energy it's useless. There really is no in between for things of this nature on such a beastly unit. The thor itself has too strong of a ground to ground attack, and too strong of a ground to air (at least against light) attack to also have a powerful special ability. QFT. If it's more powerful than the current AA attack, then it would be overpowered. If it was less powerful, no one would use it.
No, it's a different weapon (has a different role) its not more powerful.
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bad idea. mass thor (+ some support) is already close to unbeatable and a-move only in ZvT. just remove strike cannon and the energy bar to make thors more viable TvP.
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These kind of anti-air canons are not a bad idea, and they don't need to be just a "stronger" version of their base attack.
What if the Thor could "deploy" heavy anti-air canons just as siege tanks do, becoming rooted to the ground? The cannons should be a strong non-AOE (or minimal AOE) anti-air shot with relatively long cooldown that has a heavy bonus against armored/massive. While in this mode Thors should not be able to use standard weapons. Switching modes should have a cooldown similar to siege tanks.
This would allow the following:
- Encourage positional play
- Immunity to broodlings messing up with the attack (as in this state Thors could only hit air)
- Not stronger vs flocks of light flying unis (like mutas, which could be used to attack Thors that are in these positions, encouraging hit & run tactics)
- Increase overall DPS against corruptors, broodlords and colossi
- Make actual use of these heavy canons the unit is relentlessly carrying on its back since WoL beta and which only purpose is to enable its owner to be feedbacked (bad design anyone?)
- Not useful when used en masse (like with full thor mech) because of the immobility and unability to deal vs ground
Please let me know I you think it's a terrible idea.
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I disagree with this suggestion, making mutas even less viable than they currently are vs mech is simply ridiculous. It's a good idea but i think it simply affects mutas too much and will make them go from unviable, to completely useless. I like the idea of a zoning spell tho allthough it would have to be really slow dmg because broods are REALLY slow, so doing too much damage would just rape broods too hard
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On October 25 2012 19:20 Decendos wrote:
bad idea. mass thor (+ some support) is already close to unbeatable and a-move only in ZvT. just remove strike cannon and the energy bar to make thors more viable TvP.
Please read the OP and thread more closely. This will not necessarily make the Thor more powerful; It ads an ability to it (while removing another, much more silly one) that can brake Zerg siegelines if you will, without destroying it. It forces relocation and micro. If you think that Thors are overpowered than you are talking about its normal attacks. The flak cannons have nothing to do with that.
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On October 24 2012 20:04 Penev wrote:
– You can use it to save a marine when there are too many muta
Fixed that for you.
Edit: I'm officially HD! (1080p)
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On October 25 2012 19:24 DjayEl wrote:
These kind of anti-air canons are not a bad idea, and they don't need to be just a "stronger" version of their base attack.
What if the Thor could "deploy" heavy anti-air canons just as siege tanks do, becoming rooted to the ground? The cannons should be a strong non-AOE (or minimal AOE) anti-air shot with relatively long cooldown that has a heavy bonus against armored/massive. While in this mode Thors should not be able to use standard weapons. Switching modes should have a cooldown similar to siege tanks.
This would allow the following:
- Encourage positional play
- Immunity to broodlings messing up with the attack (as in this state Thors could only hit air)
- Not stronger vs flocks of light flying unis (like mutas, which could be used to attack Thors that are in these positions, encouraging hit & run tactics)
- Increase overall DPS against corruptors, broodlords and colossi
- Make actual use of these heavy canons the unit is relentlessly carrying on its back since WoL beta and which only purpose is to enable its owner to be feedbacked (bad design anyone?)
- Not useful when used en masse (like with full thor mech) because of the immobility and unability to deal vs ground
Please let me know I you think it's a terrible idea.
Cooldown or energy are really the same if you think about it; It's just that energy can be feadbacked/ EMP'd. I certainly do not dislike your idea but it definitely needs a long cooldown (otherwise it would make it too easy to leapfrog). I prefer energy because of the spells against it btw; More dynamic. The vulnerability during your siegemode and my flak cannon spell (long duration) is what some people do not seem to take into account unfortunately. Speaking of my proposal; It doesn't make the Thor any stronger, it just ads deph to the gameplay. Let me think about yours more (I'm at work now). Again: Certainly not terrible though.. Hmm..
Edit: The seige mode is interesting but I don't think higher dps against air is the way to go.
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On October 25 2012 19:55 thimius wrote:
I disagree with this suggestion, making mutas even less viable than they currently are vs mech is simply ridiculous. It's a good idea but i think it simply affects mutas too much and will make them go from unviable, to completely useless. I like the idea of a zoning spell tho allthough it would have to be really slow dmg because broods are REALLY slow, so doing too much damage would just rape broods too hard
Imagine it to be long duration, slow damage. So mutas are fine too because they are fast; They just have to make sure they don't get trapped. Also: It's not instant, its not like storm.
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EDIT:well, this change makes going air as protoss less desirable but whatever.
I still think the problem of zerg late game, is the infestor, not the broodlord.
On October 25 2012 19:20 Decendos wrote:
bad idea. mass thor (+ some support) is already close to unbeatable and a-move only in ZvT. just remove strike cannon and the energy bar to make thors more viable TvP.
can people stop saying this? Blizzard already tried this change and it did not work, it went from Thors being countered by Immortals with HT support to Thors killing everything protoss have, both in ground and air.
that was stupid and so Blizz rolled the patch back.
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meh, just buff thor air attack against non-light by 1 or 2. That way it remains the same against light and get's slighty better against non-light, ie still shit but decent enough against large flocks of stacked armored units like vikings or broodlords.
A slight fungal nerf is already expected to be coming though, maybe a slow instead of rooting or just a very small infestor nerf, perhaps increasing duration a bit again making it less spammable as a damage spell. (i'd vote to increase duration from 4 to 6 seconds and just letting it slow by 80% instead of rooting).
It would be good if thors had some use against air making mech as a whole more playable
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Bisutopia19214 Posts
On October 24 2012 22:00 Steglich wrote:
I feel like thors already are good enough vs broodlords, at least when meching.
The 3-3 upgrades for the thor simply makes them really effective against a 0-0 broodlord. The issue is when terran goes bio, and doesn't have a huge thor count and/or great upgrades for their thors.
.. That is one of the reasons why I think terran mech i stronger than bio. Mech is also much less vulnerable against fungals.
This statement confuses me. Your saying that zerg forgot to get upgrades therefor the thor is too strong? That just means zerg played poor.
I think the easiest fix that blizzard could do is remove the energy mechanic to prevent feedback. Or have feedback do less against massive.
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You'd be pigeonholing the Thor into a AA role. Currently the Thor has a lot of utility and there's no way Blizzard would increase the ability to kill air without sacrificing anything in terms of it's ground attacks.
Fighting Blords with Thors is about picking the right time to engage, as it should be. Viking, Thor Hellion late game Mech TvZ is an awesome thing to see and use.
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On October 25 2012 21:41 Markwerf wrote:
meh, just buff thor air attack against non-light by 1 or 2. That way it remains the same against light and get's slighty better against non-light, ie still shit but decent enough against large flocks of stacked armored units like vikings or broodlords.
A slight fungal nerf is already expected to be coming though, maybe a slow instead of rooting or just a very small infestor nerf, perhaps increasing duration a bit again making it less spammable as a damage spell. (i'd vote to increase duration from 4 to 6 seconds and just letting it slow by 80% instead of rooting).
It would be good if thors had some use against air making mech as a whole more playable
I want to see a IT energy increase from 25 to 50, the utility and strength that IT bring to the table is stupid, a spellcaster should not be able to bring 8 Buffed Marines (~80 dps) that can kill any unit/structure and completely demolish an expansion.
I hope they buff hydras, vipers and ultralisks just so they can nerf infestor HARD without destroying zerg.
yeah, I hate those fat bugs.
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On October 25 2012 19:57 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 19:20 Decendos wrote:
bad idea. mass thor (+ some support) is already close to unbeatable and a-move only in ZvT. just remove strike cannon and the energy bar to make thors more viable TvP. Please read the OP and thread more closely. This will not necessarily make the Thor more powerful; It ads an ability to it (while removing another, much more silly one) that can brake Zerg siegelines if you will, without destroying it. It forces relocation and micro. If you think that Thors are overpowered than you are talking about its normal attacks. The flak cannons have nothing to do with that.
i read the OP. you want to give the thor an anti-armour air cannon instead of the strike cannon, so you want to buff the thor. i say thats a bad thing since especially with widow mines and BHs mass thor + x gets even stronger in HOTS and the only way to deal with it are BLs. and even with BLs a mass thor + x army with mass repair has a very good chance of killing the zerg army.
terran has no lategame problem vs BLs if they go mech. the problem is if terran goes marine tank or pure bio and faces BL infestor. so terran needs a buff to raven and/or BCs and not to the already superstrong mass thor + x a-move builds (which should get nerfed instead of even buffed more).
On October 25 2012 22:22 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 21:41 Markwerf wrote:
meh, just buff thor air attack against non-light by 1 or 2. That way it remains the same against light and get's slighty better against non-light, ie still shit but decent enough against large flocks of stacked armored units like vikings or broodlords.
A slight fungal nerf is already expected to be coming though, maybe a slow instead of rooting or just a very small infestor nerf, perhaps increasing duration a bit again making it less spammable as a damage spell. (i'd vote to increase duration from 4 to 6 seconds and just letting it slow by 80% instead of rooting).
It would be good if thors had some use against air making mech as a whole more playable I want to see a IT energy increase from 25 to 50, the utility and strength that IT bring to the table is stupid, a spellcaster should not be able to bring 8 Buffed Marines (~80 dps) that can kill any unit/structure and completely demolish an expansion. I hope they buff hydras, vipers and ultralisks just so they can nerf infestor HARD without destroying zerg. yeah, I hate those fat bugs.
oh how awesome that would be! zerg here and i hate to play infestor only into BL infestor because everything else sucks (and got even worse in HOTS: ultra bane ling is much worse because of widow mines and BH, mutas are much worse because of widow mines, swarm hosts locusts get raped by BH + tanks + widow mines etc. so again its infestor into BL infestor time...). not talking about zvp since everything else than BL infestor gets raped even more than zvt. they really need to fix zerg mid and lategame by nerfing infestor and buffing hydras, ultras, vipers and lategame locusts.
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On October 25 2012 22:42 Decendos wrote:
oh how awesome that would be! zerg here and i hate to play infestor only into BL infestor because everything else sucks (and got even worse in HOTS: ultra bane ling is much worse because of widow mines and BH, mutas are much worse because of widow mines, swarm hosts locusts get raped by BH + tanks + widow mines etc. so again its infestor into BL infestor time...). not talking about zvp since everything else than BL infestor gets raped even more than zvt. they really need to fix zerg mid and lategame by nerfing infestor and buffing hydras, ultras, vipers and lategame locusts.
If you are losing with swarm hosts, you didn't make enough swarm hosts haha
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On October 25 2012 03:25 imPermanenCe wrote:
It freaking overlaps with the Thor's normal AA attack. Both do good aoe damage. The rest of the ideas behind the ability are good, but the fact that it overlaps so much, makes it bad.
I'm not sure how this makes it any worse than the current ability which no one gets because it almost entirely overlaps with it's ground attack with the following wonderful exceptions:
1) Stuns the target (but not all).
2) Imposes a fungal in itself for the duration once cast (i.e. roots itself).
3) Does not have upgradeable damage to the point where it's upgrades to its main ground attack actually makes spending anything on the ability make just about zero sense except as a way to maybe use up some energy before being feedbacked.
So, if this thing has any chance to be useful, why not give it a shot? Overlapping with an attack is the least of our worried, been there, do...ing that.
Edit: of course, there could be better options, I'm just saying this ones is not necessarily bad based solely on this argument.
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On October 25 2012 20:25 rpgalon wrote:This change shuts down the so wanted protoss AIR vs Mech, and makes protoss robo play the only viable choice in TvP (which is already the case in WoL). the problem of zerg late game, is the infestor, not the broodlord. Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 19:20 Decendos wrote:
bad idea. mass thor (+ some support) is already close to unbeatable and a-move only in ZvT. just remove strike cannon and the energy bar to make thors more viable TvP. can people stop saying this? Blizzard already tried this change and it did not work, it went from Thors being countered by Immortals with HT support to Thors killing everything protoss have, both in ground and air. that was stupid and so Blizz rolled the patch back.
Why does this shut Protoss air vs mech down? Just because this is an anti air spell?
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On October 26 2012 01:48 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 20:25 rpgalon wrote:This change shuts down the so wanted protoss AIR vs Mech, and makes protoss robo play the only viable choice in TvP (which is already the case in WoL). the problem of zerg late game, is the infestor, not the broodlord. On October 25 2012 19:20 Decendos wrote:
bad idea. mass thor (+ some support) is already close to unbeatable and a-move only in ZvT. just remove strike cannon and the energy bar to make thors more viable TvP. can people stop saying this? Blizzard already tried this change and it did not work, it went from Thors being countered by Immortals with HT support to Thors killing everything protoss have, both in ground and air. that was stupid and so Blizz rolled the patch back. Why does this shut Protoss air vs mech down? Just because this is an anti air spell?
you are right, it does not, it's just another reason to go robo instead of air.
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On October 25 2012 21:41 Markwerf wrote:
meh, just buff thor air attack against non-light by 1 or 2. That way it remains the same against light and get's slighty better against non-light, ie still shit but decent enough against large flocks of stacked armored units like vikings or broodlords.
A slight fungal nerf is already expected to be coming though, maybe a slow instead of rooting or just a very small infestor nerf, perhaps increasing duration a bit again making it less spammable as a damage spell. (i'd vote to increase duration from 4 to 6 seconds and just letting it slow by 80% instead of rooting).
It would be good if thors had some use against air making mech as a whole more playable
What you are suggesting is exactly how you would make the Thor overpowered. There is a reason why I chose the zoning spell. The fungal nerfs are often suggested and with good reason of course. My personal take is to have it slow massive and air units, stackable so that a massive air unit like the carrier is least affected. But it is tricky; Zerg is fragile.
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On October 25 2012 22:42 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 19:57 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 19:20 Decendos wrote:
bad idea. mass thor (+ some support) is already close to unbeatable and a-move only in ZvT. just remove strike cannon and the energy bar to make thors more viable TvP. Please read the OP and thread more closely. This will not necessarily make the Thor more powerful; It ads an ability to it (while removing another, much more silly one) that can brake Zerg siegelines if you will, without destroying it. It forces relocation and micro. If you think that Thors are overpowered than you are talking about its normal attacks. The flak cannons have nothing to do with that. i read the OP. you want to give the thor an anti-armour air cannon instead of the strike cannon, so you want to buff the thor. i say thats a bad thing since especially with widow mines and BHs mass thor + x gets even stronger in HOTS and the only way to deal with it are BLs. and even with BLs a mass thor + x army with mass repair has a very good chance of killing the zerg army. terran has no lategame problem vs BLs if they go mech. the problem is if terran goes marine tank or pure bio and faces BL infestor. so terran needs a buff to raven and/or BCs and not to the already superstrong mass thor + x a-move builds (which should get nerfed instead of even buffed more). Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 22:22 rpgalon wrote:On October 25 2012 21:41 Markwerf wrote:
meh, just buff thor air attack against non-light by 1 or 2. That way it remains the same against light and get's slighty better against non-light, ie still shit but decent enough against large flocks of stacked armored units like vikings or broodlords.
A slight fungal nerf is already expected to be coming though, maybe a slow instead of rooting or just a very small infestor nerf, perhaps increasing duration a bit again making it less spammable as a damage spell. (i'd vote to increase duration from 4 to 6 seconds and just letting it slow by 80% instead of rooting).
It would be good if thors had some use against air making mech as a whole more playable I want to see a IT energy increase from 25 to 50, the utility and strength that IT bring to the table is stupid, a spellcaster should not be able to bring 8 Buffed Marines (~80 dps) that can kill any unit/structure and completely demolish an expansion. I hope they buff hydras, vipers and ultralisks just so they can nerf infestor HARD without destroying zerg. yeah, I hate those fat bugs. oh how awesome that would be! zerg here and i hate to play infestor only into BL infestor because everything else sucks (and got even worse in HOTS: ultra bane ling is much worse because of widow mines and BH, mutas are much worse because of widow mines, swarm hosts locusts get raped by BH + tanks + widow mines etc. so again its infestor into BL infestor time...). not talking about zvp since everything else than BL infestor gets raped even more than zvt. they really need to fix zerg mid and lategame by nerfing infestor and buffing hydras, ultras, vipers and lategame locusts.
Well, I'm sorry but where did you read anti-armour? While using the spell (with long duration) the normal weapons aren't used. What I imagine to happen is that the Zerg has to seize fire temporarily (because he's relocating his Broodlords) giving the Terran the chance to get a better position or retreat more safely.
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On October 26 2012 01:55 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 01:48 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 20:25 rpgalon wrote:This change shuts down the so wanted protoss AIR vs Mech, and makes protoss robo play the only viable choice in TvP (which is already the case in WoL). the problem of zerg late game, is the infestor, not the broodlord. On October 25 2012 19:20 Decendos wrote:
bad idea. mass thor (+ some support) is already close to unbeatable and a-move only in ZvT. just remove strike cannon and the energy bar to make thors more viable TvP. can people stop saying this? Blizzard already tried this change and it did not work, it went from Thors being countered by Immortals with HT support to Thors killing everything protoss have, both in ground and air. that was stupid and so Blizz rolled the patch back. Why does this shut Protoss air vs mech down? Just because this is an anti air spell? you are right, it does not, it's just another reason to go robo instead of air.
It would be nice if you at least tried to explain. Just curious, I cannot come up with any big problems..
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On October 25 2012 19:11 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 11:44 Najda wrote:On October 25 2012 11:23 Whitewing wrote:On October 25 2012 07:27 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ. No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it ). You just say "you can balance it" but you don't explain how. If this skill is supposedly powerful enough to actually force your opponent to move out of it, then with sufficient thors, you'd effectively shut down air. Either it's useless or it's too strong, just like the strike cannon. Strike cannon without energy was way too strong, with energy it's useless. There really is no in between for things of this nature on such a beastly unit. The thor itself has too strong of a ground to ground attack, and too strong of a ground to air (at least against light) attack to also have a powerful special ability. QFT. If it's more powerful than the current AA attack, then it would be overpowered. If it was less powerful, no one would use it. No, it's a different weapon (has a different role) its not more powerful.
No, it's still the same role. The thor's anti-air is already currently used for zoning with it's range and splash. I think you just really want something in the game called flak cannon.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 25 2012 19:11 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 11:44 Najda wrote:On October 25 2012 11:23 Whitewing wrote:On October 25 2012 07:27 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ. No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it ). You just say "you can balance it" but you don't explain how. If this skill is supposedly powerful enough to actually force your opponent to move out of it, then with sufficient thors, you'd effectively shut down air. Either it's useless or it's too strong, just like the strike cannon. Strike cannon without energy was way too strong, with energy it's useless. There really is no in between for things of this nature on such a beastly unit. The thor itself has too strong of a ground to ground attack, and too strong of a ground to air (at least against light) attack to also have a powerful special ability. QFT. If it's more powerful than the current AA attack, then it would be overpowered. If it was less powerful, no one would use it. No, it's a different weapon (has a different role) its not more powerful.
If it's powerful enough to zone enemies (like broodlords as you suggest), it must be, by definition, more powerful, since the current attack is flat out insufficient for that task, unless you compensate by making it virtually useless against light air like mutalisks, which would make mech play ridiculously vulnerable to it and would be an awful idea.
You can't just come up with an idea, say "it can be balanced" and then leave it at that, you need to actually explain in what way it is balanced.
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On October 25 2012 22:17 DKR wrote:
You'd be pigeonholing the Thor into a AA role. Currently the Thor has a lot of utility and there's no way Blizzard would increase the ability to kill air without sacrificing anything in terms of it's ground attacks.
Fighting Blords with Thors is about picking the right time to engage, as it should be. Viking, Thor Hellion late game Mech TvZ is an awesome thing to see and use.
It is cool, my position is that this will make it even cooler. Plus that in the (super) late game, the Zerg has a clear advantage. It is very hard to force a Zerg out if his position while for the Zerg to push a Terran away is easy (ier).
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On October 26 2012 02:12 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 01:55 rpgalon wrote:On October 26 2012 01:48 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 20:25 rpgalon wrote:the problem of zerg late game, is the infestor, not the broodlord. On October 25 2012 19:20 Decendos wrote:
bad idea. mass thor (+ some support) is already close to unbeatable and a-move only in ZvT. just remove strike cannon and the energy bar to make thors more viable TvP. can people stop saying this? Blizzard already tried this change and it did not work, it went from Thors being countered by Immortals with HT support to Thors killing everything protoss have, both in ground and air. that was stupid and so Blizz rolled the patch back. Why does this shut Protoss air vs mech down? Just because this is an anti air spell? you are right, it does not, it's just another reason to go robo instead of air. It would be nice if you at least tried to explain. Just curious, I cannot come up with any big problems..
explain what? I said you are right, this change will not shut down protoss air play, it will just give terran another way of dealing with air, and so it's another thing you have to think about if you want to go air vs a terran.
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On October 24 2012 22:00 Steglich wrote:
I feel like thors already are good enough vs broodlords, at least when meching.
The 3-3 upgrades for the thor simply makes them really effective against a 0-0 broodlord. The issue is when terran goes bio, and doesn't have a huge thor count and/or great upgrades for their thors.
.. That is one of the reasons why I think terran mech i stronger than bio. Mech is also much less vulnerable against fungals.
Then you really haven't used thors before if you think they're good vs broodlords @_@ That's a situation you want to rarely be in, every Terran would rather have 4 seeker missiles than 4 thors vs brood/corruptor with vikings of course. Thor AA is terrible.
Yes, it is better than no AA at all, but it's still terrible vs massive units.
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On October 26 2012 02:22 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 19:11 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 11:44 Najda wrote:On October 25 2012 11:23 Whitewing wrote:On October 25 2012 07:27 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ. No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it ). You just say "you can balance it" but you don't explain how. If this skill is supposedly powerful enough to actually force your opponent to move out of it, then with sufficient thors, you'd effectively shut down air. Either it's useless or it's too strong, just like the strike cannon. Strike cannon without energy was way too strong, with energy it's useless. There really is no in between for things of this nature on such a beastly unit. The thor itself has too strong of a ground to ground attack, and too strong of a ground to air (at least against light) attack to also have a powerful special ability. QFT. If it's more powerful than the current AA attack, then it would be overpowered. If it was less powerful, no one would use it. No, it's a different weapon (has a different role) its not more powerful. No, it's still the same role. The thor's anti-air is already currently used for zoning with it's range and splash. I think you just really want something in the game called flak cannon.
Well, if you put it that way, almost every unit is used for zoning. The normal Thor AA makes the BL stutterstep, that's it. The flak cannons (OMG I love that word) will force them to relocate or, be blocked in their advancement.
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On October 26 2012 02:33 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 02:12 Penev wrote:On October 26 2012 01:55 rpgalon wrote:On October 26 2012 01:48 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 20:25 rpgalon wrote:the problem of zerg late game, is the infestor, not the broodlord. On October 25 2012 19:20 Decendos wrote:
bad idea. mass thor (+ some support) is already close to unbeatable and a-move only in ZvT. just remove strike cannon and the energy bar to make thors more viable TvP. can people stop saying this? Blizzard already tried this change and it did not work, it went from Thors being countered by Immortals with HT support to Thors killing everything protoss have, both in ground and air. that was stupid and so Blizz rolled the patch back. Why does this shut Protoss air vs mech down? Just because this is an anti air spell? you are right, it does not, it's just another reason to go robo instead of air. It would be nice if you at least tried to explain. Just curious, I cannot come up with any big problems.. explain what? I said you are right, this change will not shut down protoss air play, it will just give terran another way of dealing with air, and so it's another thing you have to think about if you want to go air vs a terran.
Ah, misunderstood than, sorry.
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On October 26 2012 02:43 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 02:22 Fyrewolf wrote:On October 25 2012 19:11 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 11:44 Najda wrote:On October 25 2012 11:23 Whitewing wrote:On October 25 2012 07:27 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ. No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it ). You just say "you can balance it" but you don't explain how. If this skill is supposedly powerful enough to actually force your opponent to move out of it, then with sufficient thors, you'd effectively shut down air. Either it's useless or it's too strong, just like the strike cannon. Strike cannon without energy was way too strong, with energy it's useless. There really is no in between for things of this nature on such a beastly unit. The thor itself has too strong of a ground to ground attack, and too strong of a ground to air (at least against light) attack to also have a powerful special ability. QFT. If it's more powerful than the current AA attack, then it would be overpowered. If it was less powerful, no one would use it. No, it's a different weapon (has a different role) its not more powerful. No, it's still the same role. The thor's anti-air is already currently used for zoning with it's range and splash. I think you just really want something in the game called flak cannon. Well, if you put it that way, almost every unit is used for zoning. The normal Thor AA makes the BL stutterstep, that's it. The flak cannons (OMG I love that word) will force them to relocate or, be blocked in their advancement.
Because every unit has ten range and splash for zoning? Thors aren't very good vs broodlords, but a unit shouldn't be good against everything in the first place. You are kind of supposed to take on broodlords with other air units, since their attack makes a living wall that continues to attack you and messes with the ai. Seeker missile is much better for taking on bl because it comes from an air unit. It just sucks that the range is short, and that the splash has falloff.
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On October 26 2012 02:30 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 19:11 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 11:44 Najda wrote:On October 25 2012 11:23 Whitewing wrote:On October 25 2012 07:27 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ. No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it ). You just say "you can balance it" but you don't explain how. If this skill is supposedly powerful enough to actually force your opponent to move out of it, then with sufficient thors, you'd effectively shut down air. Either it's useless or it's too strong, just like the strike cannon. Strike cannon without energy was way too strong, with energy it's useless. There really is no in between for things of this nature on such a beastly unit. The thor itself has too strong of a ground to ground attack, and too strong of a ground to air (at least against light) attack to also have a powerful special ability. QFT. If it's more powerful than the current AA attack, then it would be overpowered. If it was less powerful, no one would use it. No, it's a different weapon (has a different role) its not more powerful. If it's powerful enough to zone enemies (like broodlords as you suggest), it must be, by definition, more powerful, since the current attack is flat out insufficient for that task, unless you compensate by making it virtually useless against light air like mutalisks, which would make mech play ridiculously vulnerable to it and would be an awful idea. You can't just come up with an idea, say "it can be balanced" and then leave it at that, you need to actually explain in what way it is balanced.
Hmm, depends what you call more powerful; This will not increase dps but it will, temporarily, affect a bigger area. Furthermore, it's not just Broodlord vs Thor in the lategame is it? Both will have their full armies pitted against each other. And it isn't an instant spell. You are not going to directly hit mutas with this (if not for baller anticipation) but you could for instance, cut of their retreat path. About balancing; You want numbers?
Edit: For clarification: The cloud will do, for sake of argument, the same damage to several Broodlords at once as the normal attack does to one, so more Broodlords with health problems in the same time period; And on top of that, you're right, some extra dps should be added. I just wanted to make it clear that it shouldnt be a death cloud. Been replying to too many people I guess. My apologies.
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On October 26 2012 03:00 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 02:43 Penev wrote:On October 26 2012 02:22 Fyrewolf wrote:On October 25 2012 19:11 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 11:44 Najda wrote:On October 25 2012 11:23 Whitewing wrote:On October 25 2012 07:27 Penev wrote:On October 25 2012 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
If you do this, mass thor is gonna be practically impossible to stop in TvZ. No its not, please read the whole post. There are so many ways of balancing it it's at least worth trying imo (not that I have the illusion of course Blizzard even hears about it ). You just say "you can balance it" but you don't explain how. If this skill is supposedly powerful enough to actually force your opponent to move out of it, then with sufficient thors, you'd effectively shut down air. Either it's useless or it's too strong, just like the strike cannon. Strike cannon without energy was way too strong, with energy it's useless. There really is no in between for things of this nature on such a beastly unit. The thor itself has too strong of a ground to ground attack, and too strong of a ground to air (at least against light) attack to also have a powerful special ability. QFT. If it's more powerful than the current AA attack, then it would be overpowered. If it was less powerful, no one would use it. No, it's a different weapon (has a different role) its not more powerful. No, it's still the same role. The thor's anti-air is already currently used for zoning with it's range and splash. I think you just really want something in the game called flak cannon. Well, if you put it that way, almost every unit is used for zoning. The normal Thor AA makes the BL stutterstep, that's it. The flak cannons (OMG I love that word) will force them to relocate or, be blocked in their advancement. Because every unit has ten range and splash for zoning? Thors aren't very good vs broodlords, but a unit shouldn't be good against everything in the first place. You are kind of supposed to take on broodlords with other air units, since their attack makes a living wall that continues to attack you and messes with the ai. Seeker missile is much better for taking on bl because it comes from an air unit. It just sucks that the range is short.
This will not make the Thor good vs BL in the sense that it will shoot them down. The purpose of it is to give the Zerg a harder time to secure his position. It definitely should be an energy expensive spell for it not to be too spammable. The current problem imo is that the Zerg just bruteforces into your army. Not too much zoning going on. Seeker missile forces them to spread which is cool but it only stalls them for a short time or just kills them.
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