EPTBut I'm of the opinion they need to buff tanks, and directly tanks.
Mech is TANKS; They can work on Thor and hellionsall they want, in the end tanks need to be core they need to feel more important overall.
TvP Mech still not viable? - Page 54
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
But I'm of the opinion they need to buff tanks, and directly tanks. Mech is TANKS; They can work on Thor and hellionsall they want, in the end tanks need to be core they need to feel more important overall. | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
On December 24 2012 03:24 Noocta wrote: I would love 150/100/2 tanks but that would change things in TvZ and TvT a lot too. But I'm of the opinion they need to buff tanks, and directly tanks. Mech is TANKS; They can work on Thor and hellionsall they want, in the end tanks need to be core they need to feel more important overall. Who cares about TvT, The last thing they need to worry about is mirror matches. TvZ wise it may create some new problems, but they could be adjusted. The problem here is that TvP has been stale since WoL beta. TvZ has had lots of great moments and is pretty well accepted as the most successful MU in all of WoL(not current state in WoL obviously) Both races can adapt here very well, so it would be worth a try and would maybe not end up affecting the MU that much. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On December 24 2012 03:38 XXXSmOke wrote: Who cares about TvT, The last thing they need to worry about is mirror matches. TvZ wise it may create some new problems, but they could be adjusted. The problem here is that TvP has been stale since WoL beta. TvZ has had lots of great moments and is pretty well accepted as the most successful MU in all of WoL(not current state in WoL obviously) Both races can adapt here very well, so it would be worth a try and would maybe not end up affecting the MU that much. Players care about TvT. The match up would end up very stale too if tanks made Mech roll over Bio everytime. I don't really want a mech vs mech TvT everygame. | ||
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Morton
United States152 Posts
I can't help but throw out my ideas. Widow mine: Here is the key, the widow mine is kind of in an awkward spot atm. It doesn't really do anything it was meant to do and it occupies a really off role. Changes to the widow mine: range increase to 6 (IMBA!) cost for casting unstable payload is 50 minerals damage reduced to 50 (damage type is spell and ignores armor+hardened shields) cool-down of unstable payload reduced to 5 seconds (IMBA!) Reasoning: Range: the widow mine is no longer out-ranged by protoss the moment toss gets a stalker and MSC out. Zerg doesn't get a unit that out-ranges widow mines until infestors, but other changes will account for this (cost) Cost: The main issue with widow mines currently is they are pretty good at early pressure and cheese, but lose a lot of power in the late game (low dps). Adding a fairly high cost per shot makes the widow mine very bad a early game pressure. Even if Terran is floating 200 minerals at 6 minutes into the game, that's only enough for 4 widow mine shots. However in the later game when both players have a bank, widow mines become less restricted. Cool-down +damage: The widow mine with cost is now nearly useless in the early game outside of floating a ton of minerals for a cheese. However with a short cool-down, the damage output of the widow mine when Terran can afford it is HUGE. rather than have a large 125 per mine burst and then have to sit there for 40 seconds, now widow mines have great staying power, even when unsupported. Widow mines now provide very good space control, and are less coinflippy as they won't instantly kill most units, but rather give the other player time to react and move his units out of the way (controlling space, who would have thought!) The fact that immortals' hardened shield is negated by widow mines means that building up tons of ghosts is unnecessary unless protoss goes MASS immortal. now, the next issue is skytoss, because tempests and especially carriers are extremely good vs widow mines. Terran has vikings, thors, and ravens. the key here is getting a high viking and raven count, Pdd absolutely kills tempest, and vikings are the best anti air Terran has. Raven changes: Corvid reactor: also increases Pdd energy by 25, now enabling Pdd to block 2-3 additional attacks. HSM: range increased to global energy cost decreased to 100 When activated the HSM will launch from the raven in the direction targeted with an initial speed of 2.9 and accelerate by .2 every second. The duration of the HSM is 15 seconds, after which the missile will explode. Upon launching the missile, the icon for seeker missile will be replaced by "detonate seeker missile" and if the spell is activated, the missile will instantly detonate. Splash radius 1.5 Damage (over entire radius) 100 Reasoning: Corvid reactor: small buff to point defense drone. Its not that big but slightly increases the effectiveness vs tempests. HSM: the current HSM is exactly the same as the yamato cannon, which is kind of weird. The new HSM would be very deadly whether raven is massed or not (the raven can stay safe while casting), but is fairly easy to dodge by most units. The exception is large, slow moving targets which is what most of the skytoss fleet comprises of. Rather than HSM damage being based on the opponents ability to not clump units and prevent the ravens from getting close enough, the new HSM relies on Terran's ability to spread the HSM's out so toss and zerg are unable to dodge the blasts as well as toss/zerg's ability to spot the missiles and maneuver around them. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
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Zahir
United States947 Posts
I would love to see tanks somehow become more fearsome because right now they are a laughingstock in tvp but I think there's really no way to do so without breaking the other matchups. Upping the single target damage would be the only possible way and sadly this is negated by immortal hardened shields. What were they thinking with those?! | ||
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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
The best strat that i tried against toss air was a weird one, i went for double air upgrades and got +2 building armour and hi-sec from e-bay and then made viking/bc/raven/handful of mines after transitioning from a 2fac 1starport widow mine/tank/hellion defensive play with walls and hellion drops. Ravens were only used for pdd and i got the energy upgrade as well, when your only using pdd with the raven you can stay out of feedback range if your not dumb and with the upgraded turrets/auto-turrets and a handful of widow mines its possible to defend the tempest air siege when protoss air hits critical mass. Also clump enough vikings so you can 1 shot tempest from longest range possible. You also need to use yamato when your pdds are high on energy and always stay above your turrets and mines. This strat is really hard to pull off and you can die to a number of all-ins if you don't play perfectly and i haven't figured out a way to be aggressive against protoss air in the late game when i go this strat. Protoss air is much more offensive and mobile with the new msc/oracle and since terran relies on turrets and pdds its gooing to be a losing fight if you try and take a protoss base down every time. Need a ground to air mech unit that's good, blizzard needs to bring back the warhound but completely changed to be ground to air with a gatling gun ground attack like goliath. Or make the thor smaller and make the new thor air attack actually good... Something blizzard!!!! | ||
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SirPinky
United States525 Posts
On December 25 2012 01:09 EleanorRIgby wrote: mech vs protoss ground is sorta doable but you have to really outplay the protoss, but mech vs the new protoss air arsenal gets really ugly, thor's are a waste and not cost effective vs protoss air at all. Seeker missle is also shit now without the splash and is too much energy and cant even 1 shot a tempest, pdd is more cost effective against toss air 90% of the time. The best strat that i tried against toss air was a weird one, i went for double air upgrades and got +2 building armour and hi-sec from e-bay and then made viking/bc/raven/handful of mines after transitioning from a 2fac 1starport widow mine/tank/hellion defensive play with walls and hellion drops. Ravens were only used for pdd and i got the energy upgrade as well, when your only using pdd with the raven you can stay out of feedback range if your not dumb and with the upgraded turrets/auto-turrets and a handful of widow mines its possible to defend the tempest air siege when protoss air hits critical mass. Also clump enough vikings so you can 1 shot tempest from longest range possible. You also need to use yamato when your pdds are high on energy and always stay above your turrets and mines. This strat is really hard to pull off and you can die to a number of all-ins if you don't play perfectly and i haven't figured out a way to be aggressive against protoss air in the late game when i go this strat. Protoss air is much more offensive and mobile with the new msc/oracle and since terran relies on turrets and pdds its gooing to be a losing fight if you try and take a protoss base down every time. Need a ground to air mech unit that's good, blizzard needs to bring back the warhound but completely changed to be ground to air with a gatling gun ground attack like goliath. Or make the thor smaller and make the new thor air attack actually good... Something blizzard!!!! I think if you read the other posts in this forum (including ones made by myself) the conscensus of a lot of subscribers is Skytoss made mech worse in HOTS compared to WoL. Something you just touched on too. | ||
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{ToT}ColmA
Japan3260 Posts
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nomyx
United States2205 Posts
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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
On December 25 2012 08:57 c0sm0naut wrote: they are afraid to buff the siege tank because this might turn into a strategy game This. So much this. They actually WANT casual players to be able to play "well" and not get completely obliterated by skilled players using positional units well. They don't want to force casual players to play adaptively and maneuver their forces. They want blobs smashing into one another, and have deliberately designed the game from the ground up to create blobs smashing into one another. They legitimately do not want "strategy" so much as they want rock-paper-scissors unit composition battles. Such is the state of Starcraft 2. In a real strategy game, two different players in the same position, using identical armies, will use those units in very different ways and get very different results. Blizzard's SC2 team is philosophically opposed to this idea, or is simply too clueless to realize how pointlessly deterministic their units and abilities are. Honestly, there is not that much difference in the effectiveness of a big deathball of units between bronze league and professional (the pros get the deathball much faster, obviously). There should be a visible, and immediately apparent world of difference, and a tremendous difference in results using the same exact units. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On December 25 2012 08:55 nomyx wrote: Blizzard can toy with hellbat range, hellbat being healed by medivac, thor, ect but at the end of the day if "mech" is going to be viable it's going to be factory a-move mech (hellbat, thor, widow mine) and not true mech involving tanks. The only way to fix this would be to buff the tank well alteast hellbat, thor, widowmine is better than warhound lol only slightly though. Anyways, it sad they dont want to make mech work. I always thought this was the most interesting thing about BW since mech was considered the "4th" race. It was a race within a race. Opening mech or bio make the opposing opponent play completely different. Evidence of this can be seen in TvZ and TvP. Instead in BW protoss dont even have to change up their play style too much. Instead they are delighted that they are going this cause it gives them so much more option at publically humiliating you. I think the only thing that mech is good for in TvP is to show how much you out class him and how bad he is for losing to you lol. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10357 Posts
On December 25 2012 08:55 nomyx wrote: Blizzard can toy with hellbat range, hellbat being healed by medivac, thor, ect but at the end of the day if "mech" is going to be viable it's going to be factory a-move mech (hellbat, thor, widow mine) and not true mech involving tanks. The only way to fix this would be to buff the tank Actually increasing tankiness of mech (like through the hellbat) is a way to buff mech while still promoting positional play (sure, less % of your army will be tanks, but that doesn't matter when the damage output is still the same as if they were to just buff the tank, AKA the positional strength/effectiveness is better than now) | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On December 25 2012 15:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Actually increasing tankiness of mech (like through the hellbat) is a way to buff mech while still promoting positional play (sure, less % of your army will be tanks, but that doesn't matter when the damage output is still the same as if they were to just buff the tank, AKA the positional strength/effectiveness is better than now) Why stick to positional play when the "tanky Battle Hellion" can just rush across the battlefield and do it all by themselves? No one would really do that and the stupid Skytoss stuff in HotS really is the icing on the cake of mech being unuseable. The tank does not do enough damage and needs a buff. Just look at the damage numbers AND include the splash rules into that and you come to the conclusion that Siege Tanks only scratch Stalkers and tickle Zealots. Compared to BW that is ridiculous, especially since you can easily get a concentrated mass of infantry (gateway units) which get close to the Siege Tanks easily. Keeping them at bay through the threat of significant damage was the job of the Siege Tank, but Blink and Charge both kinda neutralize that already. So Battle Hellions wont make the Siege Tank better. | ||
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pmp10
3349 Posts
Due to HP scaling between races any splash damage that strongly affects protoss will be devastating to zergs. The only way mech TvP will work and remain balanced is if it receives units or abilities to counter protoss. Essentially some kind of mech equivalent of ghost would be necessary. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On December 25 2012 18:33 pmp10 wrote: All the talk of the tank buff completely ignores the problems that could bring to TvZ match-up. Due to HP scaling between races any splash damage that strongly affects protoss will be devastating to zergs. The only way mech TvP will work and remain balanced is if it receives units or abilities to counter protoss. Essentially some kind of mech equivalent of ghost would be necessary. I dont believe it would be that bad. I think zerg just need to adapt their play. Zerg got alot more options now in HOTS to counter mech. Such as ultralisk, viper and swarm host does decently well and mutas got buff up the butt. Some things might have to be nerf such as widowmine cant hit air or something but I dont think a tank damage buff would break TvZ. I believe there is definitely a range in which the tank damage can be balanced without skewering tvz but a tank buff wouldnt be as bad as many zerg put it to be. A zerg playing aggressive roach hydra into viper is very hard to deal with as mech. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On December 25 2012 18:33 pmp10 wrote: All the talk of the tank buff completely ignores the problems that could bring to TvZ match-up. Due to HP scaling between races any splash damage that strongly affects protoss will be devastating to zergs. The only way mech TvP will work and remain balanced is if it receives units or abilities to counter protoss. Essentially some kind of mech equivalent of ghost would be necessary. No it wont, because Zerg are "threatened" by Siege Tanks only a teeeny weenie bit more than Protoss. Just look at the damage against Zerglings ... its 35 damage ... to every Zergling IN THE CORE RADIUS, which is tiny. So increasing the damage to 70 against all units would only increase it so much that the primary and secondary radius would be deadly for Zerglings. Not that much of an increase in damage to make it totally deadly. The current numbers were balanced around shitty Steppes of War, which enabled tanks to focus down any advancing army in the center of the map while still being able to defend their base. For that kind of a stupid map the damage had to be nerfed, but what about todays maps? They are MUCH bigger and runbys are the tactic to use against mech and not head on confrontations. You arent supposed to be able to do that! Thats the whole point of it to force players to do things differently from head-on-confrontation and to use those things like Nydus Worm, drops and so on. In case you didnt realize it ... the shiny graphic explosion on your screen doesnt mean every Zergling there is dead, just 2-3 die and the rest only take some damage. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10357 Posts
On December 25 2012 20:28 Rabiator wrote: No it wont, because Zerg are "threatened" by Siege Tanks only a teeeny weenie bit more than Protoss. Just look at the damage against Zerglings ... its 35 damage ... to every Zergling IN THE CORE RADIUS, which is tiny. So increasing the damage to 70 against all units would only increase it so much that the primary and secondary radius would be deadly for Zerglings. Not that much of an increase in damage to make it totally deadly. The current numbers were balanced around shitty Steppes of War, which enabled tanks to focus down any advancing army in the center of the map while still being able to defend their base. For that kind of a stupid map the damage had to be nerfed, but what about todays maps? They are MUCH bigger and runbys are the tactic to use against mech and not head on confrontations. You arent supposed to be able to do that! Thats the whole point of it to force players to do things differently from head-on-confrontation and to use those things like Nydus Worm, drops and so on. In case you didnt realize it ... the shiny graphic explosion on your screen doesnt mean every Zergling there is dead, just 2-3 die and the rest only take some damage. So are you saying the secondary radius is tiny enough for it to not be that bad? if the core radius is tiny, and TvZ is already balanced, then the secondary radius means the effectiveness about doubles | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On December 25 2012 22:18 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: So are you saying the secondary radius is tiny enough for it to not be that bad? if the core radius is tiny, and TvZ is already balanced, then the secondary radius means the effectiveness about doubles "if the core radius is tiny, and TvZ is already balanced" ... that is the core question: Is TvZ (mech) balanced in WoL and will it be balanced in HotS as well? My answer is no to both of these questions simply because you always NEED all your tanks in a single spot to have a chance at fighting any Zerg horde while keeping your vulnerability to runbys. Just look how many times Zerglings overrun a Siege Tank position in WoL already and then add the new Viper "anti-tank spells" on top of it ... If my assumption of "matrices = building square" (cf. Liquipedia on the Siege Tank splash) is correct then the primary radius of the Siege Tank blast is smaller than 1 building square. That IS tiny and if the Zerglings have +1 armor while the Siege Tanks dont have +1 attack yet not even the Zerglings in this radius are killed by one shot. That is ridiculously low damage and has a "scare value" of approximately zero. | ||
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