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On December 23 2012 06:57 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 06:44 Aquila- wrote:On December 23 2012 06:29 rEalGuapo wrote:On December 23 2012 06:23 Aquila- wrote:On December 23 2012 06:12 rEalGuapo wrote:On December 23 2012 06:05 Aquila- wrote:On December 23 2012 05:58 rEalGuapo wrote: So I just tested 17 Tanks vs 33 Stalkers, the Stalkers are a bit more expensive but I figured it is fine.
Tanks sieged Stalkers a-moved results in 15 Tanks survived.
Tanks sieged Stalkers blinking in and then stutter stepping forward to get the maximum of damage out. Stalkers were in a concave before the blink. 11 Tanks survived. I did this one several times, 11 Tanks is pretty much what happens everytime.
Unsieged with micro the Stalkers win with 8-10 surviving.
This is without any upgrades.
3-3 on the Tanks, Blink + micro on 3-3-3 Stalkers vs sieged tanks 12 Siege Tanks survive.
I see how the Tanks really need a damage buff!
17 sieged 3-3 Tanks vs 51 3-3-3 Stalkers results in 8 Stalkers surviving, the Stalkers are microed by high master Protoss, the tanks are unmicroed. Obviously Stalkers are broken vs Tanks.
To defend against runbys you always got PFs widow mines and turrets. And now add in 1 immortal and see what happens. 17 Siege Tanks against 31 Stalkers 1 Immortal. I made sure that the Immortal gets hit right before I blink in. 11 Tanks survived. I see the difference now! The problem isn't the Siegetank. The problem is that when mech was played a lot the Tempest countered Thors and was strong vs Vikings. If the Tempest alone counters every single unit of Terran that is not a Marine the game is just broken.. Now though, Thors should do pretty well against Tempests, Tempests no longer get bonus damage and Thors got the new attack. I think Mech might work now but finding the right composition will be tough. You need Thors, Tanks, Ghosts, Helions/Helbats and MAYBE Vikings. The ratio is also important. My god stop posting you have no clue what you are talking about. If you mass stalkers against mech and then proceed to attack move into sieged tanks then you are probably bronze league and thus not eligible to talk about balance. "Hey I just went to the unit tester and tested pure marine against colosses and the colosses won so they are imbalanced and need to be nerfed." Wow, you're an agressive little fellow aren't you? The discussion I saw was about Stalkers being too good vs Siege Tanks in direct engagements. I figured simply posting "No!" would not be enough to convince people so I tested some numbers and shared the results. Also I blunk into the tanks. Blinked? Blunk? Something. . . But yeah you're right, you seem much more qualified to talk about strategy and balance since you are obviously not driven by emotions and very mature. Edit: Just saw you were the guy saying: "now add one Immortal" I do that, same result Then you go ahead and insult me. That is exactly why I start to despise the average Terran player more and more. For some weird reason this never happens with Protoss and very, VERY rarely with Zergs. Oh and by the way pure Marine vs pure Colossus results in Marines winning if they got stim. Even without any micro. But I see your point. Still I was just testing that specific situation that was discussed. Ok I just dont understand what point you want to bring over. You say protoss has only 2 good units and immortal is one of them. You say stalkers are too good against tanks even tho 12 survived. Stalkers are together with sentries the worst unit to make against tanks. Do you want that they nerf stalkers and dont change immortals or what? Sounds like you want to protect the immortal, but it is still the main problem. "Might as well remove protoss from the game" because of an immortal nerf that would help mech a lot? Btw I see a lot of zergs and protosses whining all the time, and no marines dont beat colosses. 60 marines with stim and combat shield lose to 5 colosses without micro and upgrades. I hope one day you get to meet my friend. His ID is Irony and he's awesome. Obviously I DON'T want Stalkers or Immortals to be nerfed Yeah up until 4 Colossi the Marines win, after that the Colossi do. What's your point? So, again, write this one down: All I did was take a scenario people complained about and showed how it actually plays out. I did this only because I read earlier that Stalkers are too good vs. Tanks. Got it? All I want is to people see the reality instead of thinking something and then take it as a fact. Do you now understand my point? Tanks win vs Stalkers. Not the other way around. If you are still uncertain and feel the need to ask again I might chose to ignore you from now on.
You are a funny guy but that does not take away from the fact that either immortals need to be nerfed or tanks need to be buffed. Of course you dont want immortals to be nerfed because you play protoss so this wont lead anywhere here.
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On December 23 2012 03:38 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 02:13 SirPinky wrote:On December 22 2012 11:01 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 22 2012 09:28 submarine wrote: I do not agree that the immortal is the only or the biggest problem of the tank right now. It would be OK if the immortal would rape tanks if the tanks had other strenghs. But honestly right now, the only ground units the tank really dominates in TvP are the sentry and the HT. Tanks are effective in TvT and to a certain extend in TvZ because they really kill stuff while that stuff moves from range 13 to range 6. Toss Units in general have a lot of HP, are big and on top of that zealots with charge "autosplit".
To make the siegetank a good unit in TvP it needs to do more damage. The steps i would like to try are:
1. Give tanks a "hold fire" or "target fire only" command. This will give the Terran the ability to time his shots and aim at certain targets with the first shot. It will also make tanks more useful in late game TvZ against Broodlord infestor. 2. Add a damage buff against shields. Maybe as an upgrade in the fusion core. Maybe even earlier. 3. If thats not enough maybe try to increase the damage dealt to the one unit the tank targets. With that tanks would be better against big units while they would not be a lot better against a lot of small units. 4. Create a good synergy: Maybe add a unit or ability that works well together with the tank. Something that increases the time the enemy has to spent in the dead space between range 6 and range 13. Some ideas: Make the auto turret useful as tank! (More HP more Armor less damage); maybe add a slow effect to another mech unit(mines), maybe even EOF; another idea would be to make hellbats immune or take less friendly fire from tanks. From what I've experienced on beta, if my opponent doesn't make Immortals, Siege Tanks are actually really good vs every other Protoss ground unit provided Helbats are utilized to tank Zealots with. I'm absolutely confident that a buff to the Siege Tank is not needed if the Immortal was nerfed so that it was no longer such a hard counter. I'm a mech play TvP in WoL and I don't think the problem is with immortals or the tank: I always just used ghosts EMP to counter a large immortal force. Now with hellbats, mech has improved in HOTS (if no other Toss units were added!). HOWEVER the problem which made mech WORSE in HOTS are the new Protoss air units. Ghosts are very expensive to counter immortals and (2-3) thors were always able to handle any small amount of air units from Protoss. But now 2 void rays can beat 3 thors (depending on micro). HOTS has made TvP mech worse by making Vray/immortal and a few HT way too cost effective. Ghosts are worthless against that combination after they use EMP; therefore, you basically just spent 200/100 on a unit just for EMP. And you need at least 3-4 depending on the immortal quantity. Throw in 2-3 tempest with their bonus damage to armor and there is no way a maxed out mech Terran can beat such a deathball. Even if they hold, the army supply usually is a wash and Protoss can re-max much faster than Terran (which is not the point in playing mech - a immobile but well potioned Terran army should always win versus any engagement TvP). To recap: Mech TvP is worse in HOTS than in WoL. All things being equal from WoL to HOTS: Terran got the Hellbat, while Protoss got Tempest (hard counter to mech) and improved Vray (hard counter to mech...which rips through thors like butter). Army supply efficiency for Protoss is too high against Terran mech composition. I suppose you could make tanks stronger to force Toss on ground units longer before the air transition, but right now it is too easy for them to hold mid-game with immortals (Pre-Ghost). Agreed completely about the root cause of the problem in HoTS being the new air units in addition to what they already had vs Mech. Where I differ in opinion is that I feel that the match up would be better suited to Protoss having stronger air units vs Mech and a weaker ground force. If Tempests, Void Rays and Carriers were their answer to strong siege tank forces in the late gamer I feel the match up could evolve in a similar way to how Mech operates in TvZ right now, where the Mech player has a strong ground army pre-Broodlords. But with Immortals already available to invalidate Siege Tanks in the midgame, and strong air units in the late game there's currently no point in the game where Mech has a strong presence, and especially when compared with Bio just has far too many counter units that Protoss can field against it. I think with the addition of the new Void Ray and Tempest that Protoss no longer really needs the Immortal for the role that it fulfills right now and the beauty of it is that you can nerf Immortals without also nerfing them vs Roaches or Stalkers by simply adjusting their Hardened Shields and not their damage or range. Hell you could even use it as a reason to buff their base hit points, shields or armor which would make them even better in the role they currently fill vs Zerg and Protoss while at the same time nerfing them out of their hard counter mech role. With Immortals no longer a hard counter unit, Mech has opportunities to actually be out on the map in the mid game and not have to worry about being immediately steamrolled. That would allow the Terran player to actually pressure the Protoss to prevent their easy tech up into Stargate, thereby creating at least somewhat of an even dynamic for the match up.
True. Protoss wins both ground and air now too. What is my whole army supposed to be? Mass vikings, lol? Even then its a wash with the new Vray and Tempest damage/range. So when we both lose our armies Protoss just instantly re-max zealot/archon. Fun times.
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Ok so how's this for an idea. Add an alternative weapon mode for Widow Mines targetting specifically Protoss units.
Call it: Electromagnetic Payload
Same range and cooldown as Unstable Payload only instead of dealing direct hitpoint damage it causes an EMP that only damages shields and not energy. So instead of 125 flat damage +40 damage splash, it would be a straight 100 damage splash that only targets Protoss shields. It would share a cooldown with Unstable Payload so you could only ever fire one weapon type per shot.
That could solve our positional problem by giving a complementary unit for tank lines that strips Protoss units of shields so that Siege Tanks can do the rest, it would give Mech a positional counter to Immortals and force much more tactical movements from the Protoss.
This would also create a cool vs air dynamic to help solve our problem vs Void Rays. Tempests would of course not really be affected by these mines much thanks to their range. This would also make Widow Mines a viable unit type for Bio play as well. Think Baneling landmines only vs Protoss.
Thoughts?
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On December 23 2012 07:04 Aquila- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 06:57 rEalGuapo wrote:On December 23 2012 06:44 Aquila- wrote:On December 23 2012 06:29 rEalGuapo wrote:On December 23 2012 06:23 Aquila- wrote:On December 23 2012 06:12 rEalGuapo wrote:On December 23 2012 06:05 Aquila- wrote:On December 23 2012 05:58 rEalGuapo wrote: So I just tested 17 Tanks vs 33 Stalkers, the Stalkers are a bit more expensive but I figured it is fine.
Tanks sieged Stalkers a-moved results in 15 Tanks survived.
Tanks sieged Stalkers blinking in and then stutter stepping forward to get the maximum of damage out. Stalkers were in a concave before the blink. 11 Tanks survived. I did this one several times, 11 Tanks is pretty much what happens everytime.
Unsieged with micro the Stalkers win with 8-10 surviving.
This is without any upgrades.
3-3 on the Tanks, Blink + micro on 3-3-3 Stalkers vs sieged tanks 12 Siege Tanks survive.
I see how the Tanks really need a damage buff!
17 sieged 3-3 Tanks vs 51 3-3-3 Stalkers results in 8 Stalkers surviving, the Stalkers are microed by high master Protoss, the tanks are unmicroed. Obviously Stalkers are broken vs Tanks.
To defend against runbys you always got PFs widow mines and turrets. And now add in 1 immortal and see what happens. 17 Siege Tanks against 31 Stalkers 1 Immortal. I made sure that the Immortal gets hit right before I blink in. 11 Tanks survived. I see the difference now! The problem isn't the Siegetank. The problem is that when mech was played a lot the Tempest countered Thors and was strong vs Vikings. If the Tempest alone counters every single unit of Terran that is not a Marine the game is just broken.. Now though, Thors should do pretty well against Tempests, Tempests no longer get bonus damage and Thors got the new attack. I think Mech might work now but finding the right composition will be tough. You need Thors, Tanks, Ghosts, Helions/Helbats and MAYBE Vikings. The ratio is also important. My god stop posting you have no clue what you are talking about. If you mass stalkers against mech and then proceed to attack move into sieged tanks then you are probably bronze league and thus not eligible to talk about balance. "Hey I just went to the unit tester and tested pure marine against colosses and the colosses won so they are imbalanced and need to be nerfed." Wow, you're an agressive little fellow aren't you? The discussion I saw was about Stalkers being too good vs Siege Tanks in direct engagements. I figured simply posting "No!" would not be enough to convince people so I tested some numbers and shared the results. Also I blunk into the tanks. Blinked? Blunk? Something. . . But yeah you're right, you seem much more qualified to talk about strategy and balance since you are obviously not driven by emotions and very mature. Edit: Just saw you were the guy saying: "now add one Immortal" I do that, same result Then you go ahead and insult me. That is exactly why I start to despise the average Terran player more and more. For some weird reason this never happens with Protoss and very, VERY rarely with Zergs. Oh and by the way pure Marine vs pure Colossus results in Marines winning if they got stim. Even without any micro. But I see your point. Still I was just testing that specific situation that was discussed. Ok I just dont understand what point you want to bring over. You say protoss has only 2 good units and immortal is one of them. You say stalkers are too good against tanks even tho 12 survived. Stalkers are together with sentries the worst unit to make against tanks. Do you want that they nerf stalkers and dont change immortals or what? Sounds like you want to protect the immortal, but it is still the main problem. "Might as well remove protoss from the game" because of an immortal nerf that would help mech a lot? Btw I see a lot of zergs and protosses whining all the time, and no marines dont beat colosses. 60 marines with stim and combat shield lose to 5 colosses without micro and upgrades. I hope one day you get to meet my friend. His ID is Irony and he's awesome. Obviously I DON'T want Stalkers or Immortals to be nerfed Yeah up until 4 Colossi the Marines win, after that the Colossi do. What's your point? So, again, write this one down: All I did was take a scenario people complained about and showed how it actually plays out. I did this only because I read earlier that Stalkers are too good vs. Tanks. Got it? All I want is to people see the reality instead of thinking something and then take it as a fact. Do you now understand my point? Tanks win vs Stalkers. Not the other way around. If you are still uncertain and feel the need to ask again I might chose to ignore you from now on. You are a funny guy but that does not take away from the fact that either immortals need to be nerfed or tanks need to be buffed. Of course you dont want immortals to be nerfed because you play protoss so this wont lead anywhere here. Is this supposed to be an argument? Hey, let me try this, superficial and pointless gibberish seems easy to produce.
You are a funny guy but that does not take away from the fact that either tanks need to be nerfed or immortals need to be buffed. Of course you dont want tanks to be nerfed because you play terran so this wont lead anywhere here.
rEalGuapo thank you for your efforts but they are in vain. Well, let me continue anyways.
Mech in TvP is already more or less viable in WoL, just obviously it won't get you any easy and fast wins. However, I still knew a few GM / top master Terrans that added pure mech builds (air obv. counting as mech) into their mix to make them less predictable and harder to prepare for or just because they enjoyed that playstyle. It really worked well with proper execution and in the lategame it is much more potent than bio. Now in HotS Ts additionally have Widow Mines, and Thors + Hellions were buffed. Mech is strong vs Z and still decent against P. Every good T will make Immortals useless with EMPs. + Show Spoiler +Maybe Immortals are really good in lower level of play where Ts don't use Ghosts properly since the Immortal vs Mech is one of those units where countering it has a steeper skill curve than its usage. But hey, the same applies to Widow Mines and Siege Tanks. The latter one already does its job and you only can improve the Tank with focus fire but dealing with Tanks with ground P requires great patience, positioning, unit composition and engagement. The only real problem I see vs Siege Tanks is the currently strong Stargate style. Well, you aren't supposed to build them anyways if the P goes for air, duhhh.
Maybe Mech still isn't explored enough in HotS but I predict more hybrid builds with more mechanical units than just Medivacs and Vikings. Hellbats work great against Zealots + as 'meat' shields and if you drop them into an unprotected mineral line, every worker will die in a matter of seconds. And Widow Mines are a big threat if you position them right. Even a few Thors and Siege Tanks added to the mix can do wonders with proper usage. What some people don't realize is that you just cannot blindly mass them, at least in higher level of play.
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On December 23 2012 05:58 rEalGuapo wrote: So I just tested 17 Tanks vs 33 Stalkers, the Stalkers are a bit more expensive but I figured it is fine.
Tanks sieged Stalkers a-moved results in 15 Tanks survived.
Tanks sieged Stalkers blinking in and then stutter stepping forward to get the maximum of damage out. Stalkers were in a concave before the blink. 11 Tanks survived. I did this one several times, 11 Tanks is pretty much what happens everytime.
Unsieged with micro the Stalkers win with 8-10 surviving.
This is without any upgrades.
3-3 on the Tanks, Blink + micro on 3-3-3 Stalkers vs sieged tanks 12 Siege Tanks survive.
I see how the Tanks really need a damage buff!
17 sieged 3-3 Tanks vs 51 3-3-3 Stalkers results in 8 Stalkers surviving, the Stalkers are microed by high master Protoss, the tanks are unmicroed. Obviously Stalkers are broken vs Tanks.
To defend against runbys you always got PFs widow mines and turrets.
I repeated your tests, 17 sieged siege tanks vs 33 stalkers both with 3/3 upgrades. On my first try the tanks won with 9 left over, on my second try the tanks won with 6 left over. After that I consistently ended up with 7-9 left over (was never able to repeat the result with 6).
Also note that this is attacking into a ball of pre-sieged Siege Tanks (the most immobile, dedicated ground to ground unit in the Terran arsenal) with one of the most mobile, versatile units in the Protoss arsenal. The strength of Stalkers vs Siege Tanks isn't direct engagements but the fact that Stalkers can blink in and pick off tanks when they are unsieged. This is actually a very fun / interesting dynamic since it forces the Siege line to slowly push across the map constantly sieging / unsieging the tanks to not get caught out in the open.
Most Terran don't complain about Stalkers when using mech anyway, it's the immortal / chargelot / archon composition (or skytoss in HotS) that Mech really struggles to defeat.
Edit: Tried 43 Stalkers vs 17 pre-sieged tanks, stalkers won with 16 left over. Seems to snowball pretty fast.
Edit Edit: I've actually had decent success with Mech in TvP in WoL, with proper use of ghosts / vikings / hellions in addition to tanks, just wanted to try your tests out for myself for fun
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On December 23 2012 11:23 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 05:58 rEalGuapo wrote: So I just tested 17 Tanks vs 33 Stalkers, the Stalkers are a bit more expensive but I figured it is fine.
Tanks sieged Stalkers a-moved results in 15 Tanks survived.
Tanks sieged Stalkers blinking in and then stutter stepping forward to get the maximum of damage out. Stalkers were in a concave before the blink. 11 Tanks survived. I did this one several times, 11 Tanks is pretty much what happens everytime.
Unsieged with micro the Stalkers win with 8-10 surviving.
This is without any upgrades.
3-3 on the Tanks, Blink + micro on 3-3-3 Stalkers vs sieged tanks 12 Siege Tanks survive.
I see how the Tanks really need a damage buff!
17 sieged 3-3 Tanks vs 51 3-3-3 Stalkers results in 8 Stalkers surviving, the Stalkers are microed by high master Protoss, the tanks are unmicroed. Obviously Stalkers are broken vs Tanks.
To defend against runbys you always got PFs widow mines and turrets. I repeated your tests, 17 sieged siege tanks vs 33 stalkers both with 3/3 upgrades. On my first try the tanks won with 9 left over, on my second try the tanks won with 6 left over. After that I consistently ended up with 7-9 left over (was never able to repeat the result with 6). Also note that this is attacking into a ball of pre-sieged Siege Tanks (the most immobile, dedicated ground to ground unit in the Terran arsenal) with one of the most mobile, versatile units in the Protoss arsenal. The strength of Stalkers vs Siege Tanks isn't direct engagements but the fact that Stalkers can blink in and pick off tanks when they are unsieged. This is actually a very fun / interesting dynamic since it forces the Siege line to slowly push across the map constantly sieging / unsieging the tanks to not get caught out in the open. Most Terran don't complain about Stalkers when using mech anyway, it's the immortal / chargelot / archon composition (or skytoss in HotS) that Mech really struggles to defeat.
Please...it would be a gift if only my opponent went stalkers. That's like a-moving mass goons into a line of seige tanks in BW - same concept. Maybe they can buy time by blinking into Terran's base to pick off tech labs etc but they will never win a straight-on battle.
Your second point is what makes mech less viable (skytoss, immortal, archon, chargelot) and/or immediate tech switch once the armies wash in one battle. WoL mech was already questionable (even though I'm stubborn and always play it with pretty good success at the high master level) but HOTS skytoss improvements makes mech just silly in HOTS.
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On December 23 2012 06:12 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 06:05 Aquila- wrote:On December 23 2012 05:58 rEalGuapo wrote: So I just tested 17 Tanks vs 33 Stalkers, the Stalkers are a bit more expensive but I figured it is fine.
Tanks sieged Stalkers a-moved results in 15 Tanks survived.
Tanks sieged Stalkers blinking in and then stutter stepping forward to get the maximum of damage out. Stalkers were in a concave before the blink. 11 Tanks survived. I did this one several times, 11 Tanks is pretty much what happens everytime.
Unsieged with micro the Stalkers win with 8-10 surviving.
This is without any upgrades.
3-3 on the Tanks, Blink + micro on 3-3-3 Stalkers vs sieged tanks 12 Siege Tanks survive.
I see how the Tanks really need a damage buff!
17 sieged 3-3 Tanks vs 51 3-3-3 Stalkers results in 8 Stalkers surviving, the Stalkers are microed by high master Protoss, the tanks are unmicroed. Obviously Stalkers are broken vs Tanks.
To defend against runbys you always got PFs widow mines and turrets. And now add in 1 immortal and see what happens. 17 Siege Tanks against 31 Stalkers 1 Immortal. I made sure that the Immortal gets hit right before I blink in. 11 Tanks survived. I see the difference now! The problem isn't the Siegetank. The problem is that when mech was played a lot the Tempest countered Thors and was strong vs Vikings. If the Tempest alone counters every single unit of Terran that is not a Marine the game is just broken.. Now though, Thors should do pretty well against Tempests, Tempests no longer get bonus damage and Thors got the new attack. I think Mech might work now but finding the right composition will be tough. You need Thors, Tanks, Ghosts, Helions/Helbats and MAYBE Vikings. The ratio is also important. Your test is stupid, because you are testing the "mech ball" and thats not what mech with Siege Tanks should be. I doubt that Protoss would be so stupid to fight such an army head on right away ... if they really were so strong and due to the bonus damage Siege Tanks are better against Blink Stalkers than they are against Zealots and the P-ratio would probably be "lots of Immortals + lots of Zealots".
How do you suppose to "counter" a flying unit with 22 range with a slow lumbering ground unit of half that range and with ridiculously low damage output against air? The Thor is worthless against the Tempest unless the Protoss is stupid enough to fly into range.
On December 23 2012 06:36 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +Not comparing it to BW - which worked - is stupid since SC2 is based upon BW.
Blink Stalkers counter Siege Tanks just as well and every time the Siege Tank unsieges you can easily blink into close range for some free shots. They also "counter" Siege Tanks simply because you can easily outmaneuver the tanks with the Stalkers and kill the Terran base while he is "hurrying back to defend". Sorry but BW was just a different game, with different mechanics. Nice for getting possible solutions, but not the holy grail of balance in SC2. Regarding your second point about stalkers, never denied that, blinkstalker play hardcounters siege tanks not due to their combat abilities, but just their mobility. So you are smart enough to disprove your own point of dismissing BW as being "a different game, with different mechanics" (and thus unworthy of being looked at for a solution to the balance problems of SC2) + Show Spoiler +- which is ridiculous to say in the first place, because the units in SC2 still have the same damage/health range as they had in BW and "shoot at opponent, deal damage minus armor bonus" is exactly the same mechanic - by saying that you can still get possible solutions from it. Either it is a totally different/incompatible game or it isnt. The nature of the different "general mechanics" only affect the outcome of a fight INDIRECTLY at best ... with the biggest impact coming from the "improved" tight movement mechanics coupled with the unlimited unit selection. The production speed boosts, creep tumors, sensor towers and so on only affect battles indirectly. So the games have 90% of the mechanics in common and talking about the different 10% should be done when thinking about balance problems, but sadly Blizzard doesnt do it.
Even with pretty different game mechanics - like Warcraft 3 had due to their hero system and worker requirement for example - you can make comparisons, so BW would stay relevant whatsoever.
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Did anyone tried skymech ? With the upgrade buff, it could be cool maybe. like siege tank helbat banshee raven ? the raven can snipe immortals with the missile and help against stalker. banshee is mobile and helps against everything on ground. it can also harass thanks to cloack. helbat are a nice buffer against chargelot and siege tank destroys the toss army...
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On December 23 2012 17:10 Insoleet wrote: Did anyone tried skymech ? With the upgrade buff, it could be cool maybe. like siege tank helbat banshee raven ? the raven can snipe immortals with the missile and help against stalker. banshee is mobile and helps against everything on ground. it can also harass thanks to cloack. helbat are a nice buffer against chargelot and siege tank destroys the toss army... You just have to get the protoss to agree not to attack for 25 mins and you're good to go
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with the crazy op blink all in, mech opening are always at a losing %
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On December 23 2012 17:38 Solarist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 17:10 Insoleet wrote: Did anyone tried skymech ? With the upgrade buff, it could be cool maybe. like siege tank helbat banshee raven ? the raven can snipe immortals with the missile and help against stalker. banshee is mobile and helps against everything on ground. it can also harass thanks to cloack. helbat are a nice buffer against chargelot and siege tank destroys the toss army... You just have to get the protoss to agree not to attack for 25 mins and you're good to go
Ya, i see.... That's probably why siege tanks need a buff.
It's the same for TvZ actually. It's more interesting to get mass Thors thant mass Tanks... Not really good for spectating (nor playing against, or playing with...)
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On December 23 2012 18:03 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 17:38 Solarist wrote:On December 23 2012 17:10 Insoleet wrote: Did anyone tried skymech ? With the upgrade buff, it could be cool maybe. like siege tank helbat banshee raven ? the raven can snipe immortals with the missile and help against stalker. banshee is mobile and helps against everything on ground. it can also harass thanks to cloack. helbat are a nice buffer against chargelot and siege tank destroys the toss army... You just have to get the protoss to agree not to attack for 25 mins and you're good to go Ya, i see.... That's probably why siege tanks need a buff. It's the same for TvZ actually. It's more interesting to get mass Thors thant mass Tanks... Not really good for spectating (nor playing against, or playing with...)
We are all pretty much agree, siege tank need buff. Every races' weapon against tanks have been up (zerg roach/hydra/viper, skytoss, etc...), even terran bioball. Tank need buff (or new unit helping tank been viable. Mines are not good enought).
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On December 24 2012 00:17 syroz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 18:03 Insoleet wrote:On December 23 2012 17:38 Solarist wrote:On December 23 2012 17:10 Insoleet wrote: Did anyone tried skymech ? With the upgrade buff, it could be cool maybe. like siege tank helbat banshee raven ? the raven can snipe immortals with the missile and help against stalker. banshee is mobile and helps against everything on ground. it can also harass thanks to cloack. helbat are a nice buffer against chargelot and siege tank destroys the toss army... You just have to get the protoss to agree not to attack for 25 mins and you're good to go Ya, i see.... That's probably why siege tanks need a buff. It's the same for TvZ actually. It's more interesting to get mass Thors thant mass Tanks... Not really good for spectating (nor playing against, or playing with...) We are all pretty much agree, siege tank need buff. Every races' weapon against tanks have been up (zerg roach/hydra/viper, skytoss, etc...), even terran bioball. Tank need buff (or new unit helping tank been viable. Mines are not good enought). Tanks and positional mech play in general are most likely a lost cause by now. By the looks of things Blizzard simply dose not want any more of this play-style. We should at least try to get the 'slow bio' version of mech better so that it can be a viable alternative to bio and bio/mech.
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On December 23 2012 09:33 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 03:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 23 2012 02:13 SirPinky wrote:On December 22 2012 11:01 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 22 2012 09:28 submarine wrote: I do not agree that the immortal is the only or the biggest problem of the tank right now. It would be OK if the immortal would rape tanks if the tanks had other strenghs. But honestly right now, the only ground units the tank really dominates in TvP are the sentry and the HT. Tanks are effective in TvT and to a certain extend in TvZ because they really kill stuff while that stuff moves from range 13 to range 6. Toss Units in general have a lot of HP, are big and on top of that zealots with charge "autosplit".
To make the siegetank a good unit in TvP it needs to do more damage. The steps i would like to try are:
1. Give tanks a "hold fire" or "target fire only" command. This will give the Terran the ability to time his shots and aim at certain targets with the first shot. It will also make tanks more useful in late game TvZ against Broodlord infestor. 2. Add a damage buff against shields. Maybe as an upgrade in the fusion core. Maybe even earlier. 3. If thats not enough maybe try to increase the damage dealt to the one unit the tank targets. With that tanks would be better against big units while they would not be a lot better against a lot of small units. 4. Create a good synergy: Maybe add a unit or ability that works well together with the tank. Something that increases the time the enemy has to spent in the dead space between range 6 and range 13. Some ideas: Make the auto turret useful as tank! (More HP more Armor less damage); maybe add a slow effect to another mech unit(mines), maybe even EOF; another idea would be to make hellbats immune or take less friendly fire from tanks. From what I've experienced on beta, if my opponent doesn't make Immortals, Siege Tanks are actually really good vs every other Protoss ground unit provided Helbats are utilized to tank Zealots with. I'm absolutely confident that a buff to the Siege Tank is not needed if the Immortal was nerfed so that it was no longer such a hard counter. I'm a mech play TvP in WoL and I don't think the problem is with immortals or the tank: I always just used ghosts EMP to counter a large immortal force. Now with hellbats, mech has improved in HOTS (if no other Toss units were added!). HOWEVER the problem which made mech WORSE in HOTS are the new Protoss air units. Ghosts are very expensive to counter immortals and (2-3) thors were always able to handle any small amount of air units from Protoss. But now 2 void rays can beat 3 thors (depending on micro). HOTS has made TvP mech worse by making Vray/immortal and a few HT way too cost effective. Ghosts are worthless against that combination after they use EMP; therefore, you basically just spent 200/100 on a unit just for EMP. And you need at least 3-4 depending on the immortal quantity. Throw in 2-3 tempest with their bonus damage to armor and there is no way a maxed out mech Terran can beat such a deathball. Even if they hold, the army supply usually is a wash and Protoss can re-max much faster than Terran (which is not the point in playing mech - a immobile but well potioned Terran army should always win versus any engagement TvP). To recap: Mech TvP is worse in HOTS than in WoL. All things being equal from WoL to HOTS: Terran got the Hellbat, while Protoss got Tempest (hard counter to mech) and improved Vray (hard counter to mech...which rips through thors like butter). Army supply efficiency for Protoss is too high against Terran mech composition. I suppose you could make tanks stronger to force Toss on ground units longer before the air transition, but right now it is too easy for them to hold mid-game with immortals (Pre-Ghost). Agreed completely about the root cause of the problem in HoTS being the new air units in addition to what they already had vs Mech. Where I differ in opinion is that I feel that the match up would be better suited to Protoss having stronger air units vs Mech and a weaker ground force. If Tempests, Void Rays and Carriers were their answer to strong siege tank forces in the late gamer I feel the match up could evolve in a similar way to how Mech operates in TvZ right now, where the Mech player has a strong ground army pre-Broodlords. But with Immortals already available to invalidate Siege Tanks in the midgame, and strong air units in the late game there's currently no point in the game where Mech has a strong presence, and especially when compared with Bio just has far too many counter units that Protoss can field against it. I think with the addition of the new Void Ray and Tempest that Protoss no longer really needs the Immortal for the role that it fulfills right now and the beauty of it is that you can nerf Immortals without also nerfing them vs Roaches or Stalkers by simply adjusting their Hardened Shields and not their damage or range. Hell you could even use it as a reason to buff their base hit points, shields or armor which would make them even better in the role they currently fill vs Zerg and Protoss while at the same time nerfing them out of their hard counter mech role. With Immortals no longer a hard counter unit, Mech has opportunities to actually be out on the map in the mid game and not have to worry about being immediately steamrolled. That would allow the Terran player to actually pressure the Protoss to prevent their easy tech up into Stargate, thereby creating at least somewhat of an even dynamic for the match up. True. Protoss wins both ground and air now too. What is my whole army supposed to be? Mass vikings, lol? Even then its a wash with the new Vray and Tempest damage/range. So when we both lose our armies Protoss just instantly re-max zealot/archon. Fun times.
More or less this, however we still have about 2.2 months left, so hopefully some changes will be made.
On December 24 2012 00:32 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 00:17 syroz wrote:On December 23 2012 18:03 Insoleet wrote:On December 23 2012 17:38 Solarist wrote:On December 23 2012 17:10 Insoleet wrote: Did anyone tried skymech ? With the upgrade buff, it could be cool maybe. like siege tank helbat banshee raven ? the raven can snipe immortals with the missile and help against stalker. banshee is mobile and helps against everything on ground. it can also harass thanks to cloack. helbat are a nice buffer against chargelot and siege tank destroys the toss army... You just have to get the protoss to agree not to attack for 25 mins and you're good to go Ya, i see.... That's probably why siege tanks need a buff. It's the same for TvZ actually. It's more interesting to get mass Thors thant mass Tanks... Not really good for spectating (nor playing against, or playing with...) We are all pretty much agree, siege tank need buff. Every races' weapon against tanks have been up (zerg roach/hydra/viper, skytoss, etc...), even terran bioball. Tank need buff (or new unit helping tank been viable. Mines are not good enought). Tanks and positional mech play in general are most likely a lost cause by now. By the looks of things Blizzard simply dose not want any more of this play-style. We should at least try to get the 'slow bio' version of mech better so that it can be a viable alternative to bio and bio/mech.
No. We don't want Reskinned Mech "bio". Blizzard knows this which is why they removed the Warhound. I think if we keep pressuring Blizzard they will cave in and make the tank actually decently viable. After all it's one of the most clear cut ways to fix mech in both matchups.
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On December 24 2012 02:18 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 00:32 pmp10 wrote: Tanks and positional mech play in general are most likely a lost cause by now. By the looks of things Blizzard simply dose not want any more of this play-style. We should at least try to get the 'slow bio' version of mech better so that it can be a viable alternative to bio and bio/mech. I think if we keep pressuring Blizzard they will cave in and make the tank actually viable. After all it's one of the most clear cut ways to fix mech in both matchups. Sure - if we meet the 'whining quota' Blizzard will fall in line but that will never create a lasting solution. They will just wait and get their way the moment first balance issues appear.
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On December 24 2012 02:18 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 09:33 SirPinky wrote:On December 23 2012 03:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 23 2012 02:13 SirPinky wrote:On December 22 2012 11:01 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 22 2012 09:28 submarine wrote: I do not agree that the immortal is the only or the biggest problem of the tank right now. It would be OK if the immortal would rape tanks if the tanks had other strenghs. But honestly right now, the only ground units the tank really dominates in TvP are the sentry and the HT. Tanks are effective in TvT and to a certain extend in TvZ because they really kill stuff while that stuff moves from range 13 to range 6. Toss Units in general have a lot of HP, are big and on top of that zealots with charge "autosplit".
To make the siegetank a good unit in TvP it needs to do more damage. The steps i would like to try are:
1. Give tanks a "hold fire" or "target fire only" command. This will give the Terran the ability to time his shots and aim at certain targets with the first shot. It will also make tanks more useful in late game TvZ against Broodlord infestor. 2. Add a damage buff against shields. Maybe as an upgrade in the fusion core. Maybe even earlier. 3. If thats not enough maybe try to increase the damage dealt to the one unit the tank targets. With that tanks would be better against big units while they would not be a lot better against a lot of small units. 4. Create a good synergy: Maybe add a unit or ability that works well together with the tank. Something that increases the time the enemy has to spent in the dead space between range 6 and range 13. Some ideas: Make the auto turret useful as tank! (More HP more Armor less damage); maybe add a slow effect to another mech unit(mines), maybe even EOF; another idea would be to make hellbats immune or take less friendly fire from tanks. From what I've experienced on beta, if my opponent doesn't make Immortals, Siege Tanks are actually really good vs every other Protoss ground unit provided Helbats are utilized to tank Zealots with. I'm absolutely confident that a buff to the Siege Tank is not needed if the Immortal was nerfed so that it was no longer such a hard counter. I'm a mech play TvP in WoL and I don't think the problem is with immortals or the tank: I always just used ghosts EMP to counter a large immortal force. Now with hellbats, mech has improved in HOTS (if no other Toss units were added!). HOWEVER the problem which made mech WORSE in HOTS are the new Protoss air units. Ghosts are very expensive to counter immortals and (2-3) thors were always able to handle any small amount of air units from Protoss. But now 2 void rays can beat 3 thors (depending on micro). HOTS has made TvP mech worse by making Vray/immortal and a few HT way too cost effective. Ghosts are worthless against that combination after they use EMP; therefore, you basically just spent 200/100 on a unit just for EMP. And you need at least 3-4 depending on the immortal quantity. Throw in 2-3 tempest with their bonus damage to armor and there is no way a maxed out mech Terran can beat such a deathball. Even if they hold, the army supply usually is a wash and Protoss can re-max much faster than Terran (which is not the point in playing mech - a immobile but well potioned Terran army should always win versus any engagement TvP). To recap: Mech TvP is worse in HOTS than in WoL. All things being equal from WoL to HOTS: Terran got the Hellbat, while Protoss got Tempest (hard counter to mech) and improved Vray (hard counter to mech...which rips through thors like butter). Army supply efficiency for Protoss is too high against Terran mech composition. I suppose you could make tanks stronger to force Toss on ground units longer before the air transition, but right now it is too easy for them to hold mid-game with immortals (Pre-Ghost). Agreed completely about the root cause of the problem in HoTS being the new air units in addition to what they already had vs Mech. Where I differ in opinion is that I feel that the match up would be better suited to Protoss having stronger air units vs Mech and a weaker ground force. If Tempests, Void Rays and Carriers were their answer to strong siege tank forces in the late gamer I feel the match up could evolve in a similar way to how Mech operates in TvZ right now, where the Mech player has a strong ground army pre-Broodlords. But with Immortals already available to invalidate Siege Tanks in the midgame, and strong air units in the late game there's currently no point in the game where Mech has a strong presence, and especially when compared with Bio just has far too many counter units that Protoss can field against it. I think with the addition of the new Void Ray and Tempest that Protoss no longer really needs the Immortal for the role that it fulfills right now and the beauty of it is that you can nerf Immortals without also nerfing them vs Roaches or Stalkers by simply adjusting their Hardened Shields and not their damage or range. Hell you could even use it as a reason to buff their base hit points, shields or armor which would make them even better in the role they currently fill vs Zerg and Protoss while at the same time nerfing them out of their hard counter mech role. With Immortals no longer a hard counter unit, Mech has opportunities to actually be out on the map in the mid game and not have to worry about being immediately steamrolled. That would allow the Terran player to actually pressure the Protoss to prevent their easy tech up into Stargate, thereby creating at least somewhat of an even dynamic for the match up. True. Protoss wins both ground and air now too. What is my whole army supposed to be? Mass vikings, lol? Even then its a wash with the new Vray and Tempest damage/range. So when we both lose our armies Protoss just instantly re-max zealot/archon. Fun times. More or less this, however we still have about 2.2 months left, so hopefully some changes will be made. Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 00:32 pmp10 wrote:On December 24 2012 00:17 syroz wrote:On December 23 2012 18:03 Insoleet wrote:On December 23 2012 17:38 Solarist wrote:On December 23 2012 17:10 Insoleet wrote: Did anyone tried skymech ? With the upgrade buff, it could be cool maybe. like siege tank helbat banshee raven ? the raven can snipe immortals with the missile and help against stalker. banshee is mobile and helps against everything on ground. it can also harass thanks to cloack. helbat are a nice buffer against chargelot and siege tank destroys the toss army... You just have to get the protoss to agree not to attack for 25 mins and you're good to go Ya, i see.... That's probably why siege tanks need a buff. It's the same for TvZ actually. It's more interesting to get mass Thors thant mass Tanks... Not really good for spectating (nor playing against, or playing with...) We are all pretty much agree, siege tank need buff. Every races' weapon against tanks have been up (zerg roach/hydra/viper, skytoss, etc...), even terran bioball. Tank need buff (or new unit helping tank been viable. Mines are not good enought). Tanks and positional mech play in general are most likely a lost cause by now. By the looks of things Blizzard simply dose not want any more of this play-style. We should at least try to get the 'slow bio' version of mech better so that it can be a viable alternative to bio and bio/mech. No. We don't want Reskinned Mech "bio". Blizzard knows this which is why they removed the Warhound. I think if we keep pressuring Blizzard they will cave in and make the tank actually decently viable. After all it's one of the most clear cut ways to fix mech in both matchups.
On twitter, i asked Dustin about the state of mech and gave him a link about TL ideas.
He answered that he actually like the idea of a "mammoth tank" so hopefully we will see a strong tank in next patch
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On December 24 2012 02:28 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 02:18 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 23 2012 09:33 SirPinky wrote:On December 23 2012 03:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 23 2012 02:13 SirPinky wrote:On December 22 2012 11:01 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 22 2012 09:28 submarine wrote: I do not agree that the immortal is the only or the biggest problem of the tank right now. It would be OK if the immortal would rape tanks if the tanks had other strenghs. But honestly right now, the only ground units the tank really dominates in TvP are the sentry and the HT. Tanks are effective in TvT and to a certain extend in TvZ because they really kill stuff while that stuff moves from range 13 to range 6. Toss Units in general have a lot of HP, are big and on top of that zealots with charge "autosplit".
To make the siegetank a good unit in TvP it needs to do more damage. The steps i would like to try are:
1. Give tanks a "hold fire" or "target fire only" command. This will give the Terran the ability to time his shots and aim at certain targets with the first shot. It will also make tanks more useful in late game TvZ against Broodlord infestor. 2. Add a damage buff against shields. Maybe as an upgrade in the fusion core. Maybe even earlier. 3. If thats not enough maybe try to increase the damage dealt to the one unit the tank targets. With that tanks would be better against big units while they would not be a lot better against a lot of small units. 4. Create a good synergy: Maybe add a unit or ability that works well together with the tank. Something that increases the time the enemy has to spent in the dead space between range 6 and range 13. Some ideas: Make the auto turret useful as tank! (More HP more Armor less damage); maybe add a slow effect to another mech unit(mines), maybe even EOF; another idea would be to make hellbats immune or take less friendly fire from tanks. From what I've experienced on beta, if my opponent doesn't make Immortals, Siege Tanks are actually really good vs every other Protoss ground unit provided Helbats are utilized to tank Zealots with. I'm absolutely confident that a buff to the Siege Tank is not needed if the Immortal was nerfed so that it was no longer such a hard counter. I'm a mech play TvP in WoL and I don't think the problem is with immortals or the tank: I always just used ghosts EMP to counter a large immortal force. Now with hellbats, mech has improved in HOTS (if no other Toss units were added!). HOWEVER the problem which made mech WORSE in HOTS are the new Protoss air units. Ghosts are very expensive to counter immortals and (2-3) thors were always able to handle any small amount of air units from Protoss. But now 2 void rays can beat 3 thors (depending on micro). HOTS has made TvP mech worse by making Vray/immortal and a few HT way too cost effective. Ghosts are worthless against that combination after they use EMP; therefore, you basically just spent 200/100 on a unit just for EMP. And you need at least 3-4 depending on the immortal quantity. Throw in 2-3 tempest with their bonus damage to armor and there is no way a maxed out mech Terran can beat such a deathball. Even if they hold, the army supply usually is a wash and Protoss can re-max much faster than Terran (which is not the point in playing mech - a immobile but well potioned Terran army should always win versus any engagement TvP). To recap: Mech TvP is worse in HOTS than in WoL. All things being equal from WoL to HOTS: Terran got the Hellbat, while Protoss got Tempest (hard counter to mech) and improved Vray (hard counter to mech...which rips through thors like butter). Army supply efficiency for Protoss is too high against Terran mech composition. I suppose you could make tanks stronger to force Toss on ground units longer before the air transition, but right now it is too easy for them to hold mid-game with immortals (Pre-Ghost). Agreed completely about the root cause of the problem in HoTS being the new air units in addition to what they already had vs Mech. Where I differ in opinion is that I feel that the match up would be better suited to Protoss having stronger air units vs Mech and a weaker ground force. If Tempests, Void Rays and Carriers were their answer to strong siege tank forces in the late gamer I feel the match up could evolve in a similar way to how Mech operates in TvZ right now, where the Mech player has a strong ground army pre-Broodlords. But with Immortals already available to invalidate Siege Tanks in the midgame, and strong air units in the late game there's currently no point in the game where Mech has a strong presence, and especially when compared with Bio just has far too many counter units that Protoss can field against it. I think with the addition of the new Void Ray and Tempest that Protoss no longer really needs the Immortal for the role that it fulfills right now and the beauty of it is that you can nerf Immortals without also nerfing them vs Roaches or Stalkers by simply adjusting their Hardened Shields and not their damage or range. Hell you could even use it as a reason to buff their base hit points, shields or armor which would make them even better in the role they currently fill vs Zerg and Protoss while at the same time nerfing them out of their hard counter mech role. With Immortals no longer a hard counter unit, Mech has opportunities to actually be out on the map in the mid game and not have to worry about being immediately steamrolled. That would allow the Terran player to actually pressure the Protoss to prevent their easy tech up into Stargate, thereby creating at least somewhat of an even dynamic for the match up. True. Protoss wins both ground and air now too. What is my whole army supposed to be? Mass vikings, lol? Even then its a wash with the new Vray and Tempest damage/range. So when we both lose our armies Protoss just instantly re-max zealot/archon. Fun times. More or less this, however we still have about 2.2 months left, so hopefully some changes will be made. On December 24 2012 00:32 pmp10 wrote:On December 24 2012 00:17 syroz wrote:On December 23 2012 18:03 Insoleet wrote:On December 23 2012 17:38 Solarist wrote:On December 23 2012 17:10 Insoleet wrote: Did anyone tried skymech ? With the upgrade buff, it could be cool maybe. like siege tank helbat banshee raven ? the raven can snipe immortals with the missile and help against stalker. banshee is mobile and helps against everything on ground. it can also harass thanks to cloack. helbat are a nice buffer against chargelot and siege tank destroys the toss army... You just have to get the protoss to agree not to attack for 25 mins and you're good to go Ya, i see.... That's probably why siege tanks need a buff. It's the same for TvZ actually. It's more interesting to get mass Thors thant mass Tanks... Not really good for spectating (nor playing against, or playing with...) We are all pretty much agree, siege tank need buff. Every races' weapon against tanks have been up (zerg roach/hydra/viper, skytoss, etc...), even terran bioball. Tank need buff (or new unit helping tank been viable. Mines are not good enought). Tanks and positional mech play in general are most likely a lost cause by now. By the looks of things Blizzard simply dose not want any more of this play-style. We should at least try to get the 'slow bio' version of mech better so that it can be a viable alternative to bio and bio/mech. No. We don't want Reskinned Mech "bio". Blizzard knows this which is why they removed the Warhound. I think if we keep pressuring Blizzard they will cave in and make the tank actually decently viable. After all it's one of the most clear cut ways to fix mech in both matchups. On twitter, i asked Dustin about the state of mech and gave him a link about TL ideas. He answered that he actually like the idea of a "mammoth tank" so hopefully we will see a strong tank in next patch https://twitter.com/DustinBrowder/status/282171824375226368
I think he's just saying that because it's a C&C unit and he worked on C&C in the past tbh
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On December 24 2012 02:33 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 02:28 Insoleet wrote:On December 24 2012 02:18 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 23 2012 09:33 SirPinky wrote:On December 23 2012 03:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 23 2012 02:13 SirPinky wrote:On December 22 2012 11:01 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 22 2012 09:28 submarine wrote: I do not agree that the immortal is the only or the biggest problem of the tank right now. It would be OK if the immortal would rape tanks if the tanks had other strenghs. But honestly right now, the only ground units the tank really dominates in TvP are the sentry and the HT. Tanks are effective in TvT and to a certain extend in TvZ because they really kill stuff while that stuff moves from range 13 to range 6. Toss Units in general have a lot of HP, are big and on top of that zealots with charge "autosplit".
To make the siegetank a good unit in TvP it needs to do more damage. The steps i would like to try are:
1. Give tanks a "hold fire" or "target fire only" command. This will give the Terran the ability to time his shots and aim at certain targets with the first shot. It will also make tanks more useful in late game TvZ against Broodlord infestor. 2. Add a damage buff against shields. Maybe as an upgrade in the fusion core. Maybe even earlier. 3. If thats not enough maybe try to increase the damage dealt to the one unit the tank targets. With that tanks would be better against big units while they would not be a lot better against a lot of small units. 4. Create a good synergy: Maybe add a unit or ability that works well together with the tank. Something that increases the time the enemy has to spent in the dead space between range 6 and range 13. Some ideas: Make the auto turret useful as tank! (More HP more Armor less damage); maybe add a slow effect to another mech unit(mines), maybe even EOF; another idea would be to make hellbats immune or take less friendly fire from tanks. From what I've experienced on beta, if my opponent doesn't make Immortals, Siege Tanks are actually really good vs every other Protoss ground unit provided Helbats are utilized to tank Zealots with. I'm absolutely confident that a buff to the Siege Tank is not needed if the Immortal was nerfed so that it was no longer such a hard counter. I'm a mech play TvP in WoL and I don't think the problem is with immortals or the tank: I always just used ghosts EMP to counter a large immortal force. Now with hellbats, mech has improved in HOTS (if no other Toss units were added!). HOWEVER the problem which made mech WORSE in HOTS are the new Protoss air units. Ghosts are very expensive to counter immortals and (2-3) thors were always able to handle any small amount of air units from Protoss. But now 2 void rays can beat 3 thors (depending on micro). HOTS has made TvP mech worse by making Vray/immortal and a few HT way too cost effective. Ghosts are worthless against that combination after they use EMP; therefore, you basically just spent 200/100 on a unit just for EMP. And you need at least 3-4 depending on the immortal quantity. Throw in 2-3 tempest with their bonus damage to armor and there is no way a maxed out mech Terran can beat such a deathball. Even if they hold, the army supply usually is a wash and Protoss can re-max much faster than Terran (which is not the point in playing mech - a immobile but well potioned Terran army should always win versus any engagement TvP). To recap: Mech TvP is worse in HOTS than in WoL. All things being equal from WoL to HOTS: Terran got the Hellbat, while Protoss got Tempest (hard counter to mech) and improved Vray (hard counter to mech...which rips through thors like butter). Army supply efficiency for Protoss is too high against Terran mech composition. I suppose you could make tanks stronger to force Toss on ground units longer before the air transition, but right now it is too easy for them to hold mid-game with immortals (Pre-Ghost). Agreed completely about the root cause of the problem in HoTS being the new air units in addition to what they already had vs Mech. Where I differ in opinion is that I feel that the match up would be better suited to Protoss having stronger air units vs Mech and a weaker ground force. If Tempests, Void Rays and Carriers were their answer to strong siege tank forces in the late gamer I feel the match up could evolve in a similar way to how Mech operates in TvZ right now, where the Mech player has a strong ground army pre-Broodlords. But with Immortals already available to invalidate Siege Tanks in the midgame, and strong air units in the late game there's currently no point in the game where Mech has a strong presence, and especially when compared with Bio just has far too many counter units that Protoss can field against it. I think with the addition of the new Void Ray and Tempest that Protoss no longer really needs the Immortal for the role that it fulfills right now and the beauty of it is that you can nerf Immortals without also nerfing them vs Roaches or Stalkers by simply adjusting their Hardened Shields and not their damage or range. Hell you could even use it as a reason to buff their base hit points, shields or armor which would make them even better in the role they currently fill vs Zerg and Protoss while at the same time nerfing them out of their hard counter mech role. With Immortals no longer a hard counter unit, Mech has opportunities to actually be out on the map in the mid game and not have to worry about being immediately steamrolled. That would allow the Terran player to actually pressure the Protoss to prevent their easy tech up into Stargate, thereby creating at least somewhat of an even dynamic for the match up. True. Protoss wins both ground and air now too. What is my whole army supposed to be? Mass vikings, lol? Even then its a wash with the new Vray and Tempest damage/range. So when we both lose our armies Protoss just instantly re-max zealot/archon. Fun times. More or less this, however we still have about 2.2 months left, so hopefully some changes will be made. On December 24 2012 00:32 pmp10 wrote:On December 24 2012 00:17 syroz wrote:On December 23 2012 18:03 Insoleet wrote:On December 23 2012 17:38 Solarist wrote:On December 23 2012 17:10 Insoleet wrote: Did anyone tried skymech ? With the upgrade buff, it could be cool maybe. like siege tank helbat banshee raven ? the raven can snipe immortals with the missile and help against stalker. banshee is mobile and helps against everything on ground. it can also harass thanks to cloack. helbat are a nice buffer against chargelot and siege tank destroys the toss army... You just have to get the protoss to agree not to attack for 25 mins and you're good to go Ya, i see.... That's probably why siege tanks need a buff. It's the same for TvZ actually. It's more interesting to get mass Thors thant mass Tanks... Not really good for spectating (nor playing against, or playing with...) We are all pretty much agree, siege tank need buff. Every races' weapon against tanks have been up (zerg roach/hydra/viper, skytoss, etc...), even terran bioball. Tank need buff (or new unit helping tank been viable. Mines are not good enought). Tanks and positional mech play in general are most likely a lost cause by now. By the looks of things Blizzard simply dose not want any more of this play-style. We should at least try to get the 'slow bio' version of mech better so that it can be a viable alternative to bio and bio/mech. No. We don't want Reskinned Mech "bio". Blizzard knows this which is why they removed the Warhound. I think if we keep pressuring Blizzard they will cave in and make the tank actually decently viable. After all it's one of the most clear cut ways to fix mech in both matchups. On twitter, i asked Dustin about the state of mech and gave him a link about TL ideas. He answered that he actually like the idea of a "mammoth tank" so hopefully we will see a strong tank in next patch https://twitter.com/DustinBrowder/status/282171824375226368 I think he's just saying that because it's a C&C unit and he worked on C&C in the past tbh
Didnt play C&C, didnt know
You are probably right...
Well, we have to continue pressuring blizz.
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I just played 2 mech TvP. I quit beta until there's changes.
The first mech TvP I played, I killed 20 probes, but then died to mass tempest because if Protoss gets 15-16 tempests, you need minimum 27 vikings to trade EVENLY. Raven PDD is an answer, but ravens are inaccessible, so they actually aren't.
People will say, "try the mines?" Yes, that doesn't work vs good Protoss, let alone mediocre ones. The guy had about 15 tempests, I was able to get the BEST CASE scenario with widow mines here, I ran 15-20 widow mines near the tempests, and they tickled the tempest's blue photon balls while I proceeded to lose the game because i can't build 27 vikings in the span of 45 seconds.
Widow mine nerf, is so terrible. People got this shit nerfed by complaining it was OP? The problem here is vipers still remain OP, tempests still OP. That in itself is OK, if Terran has something equally abuseable.
But a few people complain and now Terran is gimped. It was necessary for the unit to be that strong to be usable vs Protoss, and even vs Zerg. You can't have it both ways. You can't have each race have something incredibly OP, and then nerf only Terran's "OP" stuff.
Replay here: http://drop.sc/287020
Mech needs factory mobile AA. An actual unit.
Opponent told me after game he was a Terran player that switched to Protoss because of the same shiot. Awesome, I'm sure many more will be switching as well.
Game 2, I open reaper, into marauder with a mine. I play the opening great, and then see my opponent has 3 stalkers and an oracle. So I lure him into a widow mine with my marauders.
I lose the marauder of course, but I am like, "hey, no problem, my trap works and i'll kill the oracle / or a stalker + splash the others.
The widow mine pops up, and hits the oracle, the oracle is still zooming around like it just had a birthday party.
Replay here: http://drop.sc/287028
I ragequit the game, and i ragequit the beta. A mine can't even kill an oracle now? What? The? The only new Terran unit, does...nothing? @_@ this is sooooo bad TvP.
I am not saying Terran cannot win guys, do not mistake me for saying that. Terran can win, if you go bio and play exactly the same as wings of liberty.
Mech Terran tho? It's now worse in HOTS than in wings of liberty, and this is just sad
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On December 24 2012 02:40 avilo wrote:I just played 2 mech TvP. I quit beta until there's changes. The first mech TvP I played, I killed 20 probes, but then died to mass tempest because if Protoss gets 15-16 tempests, you need minimum 27 vikings to trade EVENLY. Raven PDD is an answer, but ravens are inaccessible, so they actually aren't. People will say, "try the mines?" Yes, that doesn't work vs good Protoss, let alone mediocre ones. The guy had about 15 tempests, I was able to get the BEST CASE scenario with widow mines here, I ran 15-20 widow mines near the tempests, and they tickled the tempest's blue photon balls while I proceeded to lose the game because i can't build 27 vikings in the span of 45 seconds. Widow mine nerf, is so terrible. People got this shit nerfed by complaining it was OP? The problem here is vipers still remain OP, tempests still OP. That in itself is OK, if Terran has something equally abuseable. But a few people complain and now Terran is gimped. It was necessary for the unit to be that strong to be usable vs Protoss, and even vs Zerg. You can't have it both ways. You can't have each race have something incredibly OP, and then nerf only Terran's "OP" stuff. Replay here: http://drop.sc/287020Mech needs factory mobile AA. An actual unit. Opponent told me after game he was a Terran player that switched to Protoss because of the same shiot. Awesome, I'm sure many more will be switching as well. Game 2, I open reaper, into marauder with a mine. I play the opening great, and then see my opponent has 3 stalkers and an oracle. So I lure him into a widow mine with my marauders. I lose the marauder of course, but I am like, "hey, no problem, my trap works and i'll kill the oracle / or a stalker + splash the others. The widow mine pops up, and hits the oracle, the oracle is still zooming around like it just had a birthday party. Replay here: http://drop.sc/287028I ragequit the game, and i ragequit the beta. A mine can't even kill an oracle now? What? The? The only new Terran unit, does...nothing? @_@ this is sooooo bad TvP. I am not saying Terran cannot win guys, do not mistake me for saying that. Terran can win, if you go bio and play exactly the same as wings of liberty. Mech Terran tho? It's now worse in HOTS than in wings of liberty, and this is just sad
Yea just tried mech alot recently. No work.
One problem I saw with alot of peoples mech was that there was no early pressure and this was essential in BW. Turtling mech is not a good solution, because you allow your oppenant any response he wants. The problem is that with mother ship core all of your early pressure options are not good which = solid 3 base Toss if you go mech, and we all know how the late game goes. This is why 150/100 2 supply tank would be amazing. The mid game of mech would be much much stronger and you could put consistent pressure on the toss and limit him. If any Terran in BW just sat back and got 5 base without attacking he would surely lose, the same should be true in WoL. Mech shouldn't be about turtling, it should be about controlling the map/harassing/and forcing favorable engagements with good positions.
Hopefully next patch Blizz will play with "Tank #'s" cuz honestly if they can play with the fungal #'s, then I see no reason why the fuck they cant play with tank #s's
Bio is much much much stronger now its pretty ridiculous. With the new medivac buffs you can harass a toss and are almost guaranteed damage. Then when you get heal upgrade you are so set.
We are really in need of a new TvP, Bio makes me want to puke with how repetitive and one dimensional it is.
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