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On December 11 2012 01:52 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 01:28 RandomMan wrote:On December 11 2012 01:25 Everlong wrote:On December 11 2012 01:07 RandomMan wrote:On December 11 2012 00:55 Everlong wrote:On December 11 2012 00:35 Penev wrote:
On the energy bar thing: Mech should have some energy bars to keep HT's a somewhat viable choice. Storms don't quite effect mech like it does bio. I mean, c'mon.. Mech finally just got something.. How, why do you want HT's to counter mech? You've got whole robo tech + zealots + stargate tech against mech.. You really want all tech paths to counter mech right? Zealots counter mech in HOTS? Helbat got remove like warhound? Robo does not counter mech, depending whether you recognize air units, particularly raven as part of mech. Oh my god, I think we can now abandon this discussion.. "Robo does not counter mech" is enough for me. Guys, save your time, we might try next time.. Please enlighten me how an immortal kills off, or simply any unit in robo, kills off raven, before the seeker missile 1 shot immortal or reduce colossi to 50 hp? Against my better judgement I will respond to you RandomMan, even though you have been acting like a child throughout this thread (where the Mods at?). Using a 200 gas unit, that takes 2 minutes to "counter" a 100 gas unit, that takes at most 55 seconds to make, isn't generally an example of a counter. It's akin to saying Carriers "counter" Roaches. Yes, they do beat them, but it's not realistic to use them for that purpose throughout the game. Of course it could be useful to have 1 Raven now with cheaper DT's, the usefullness of PDD, auto-turrets to block chargelots, and now HSM to kill off 1 Immortal. That's enough utility to make them worth it for sure IMO. But as far as making multiple Ravens just to counter multiple Immortals - there's only one specific situation where that makes any sense at all: In a maxed out situation where the 2 supply Raven killing the 4 supply Immortal is a supply-efficient counter AND when resources aren't a limiting factor to your composition. I.E. you can't max out on Ravens in your first max out, or you are vulnerable to attacks before that, wherein you have traded 200 gas to remove a 100 gas unit from the fight, that's not cost-efficient. Not being cost-efficient in engagements (with gas at least) against Protoss - who should have more bases than you - is a recipe for failure.
I admire you brave sir.. You will get some random unjustified answer that is completly not in touch with this topic, so I say let's move on..
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Does anyone have any pro level replays of players trying to go mech and succeeding, or failing?
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On December 11 2012 01:22 RandomMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 00:47 Aquila- wrote:
Yes blizzard buffed mech, but the wrong way. Imo they have no idea why mech tvp is not viable. Their buffs helped but the core problems still remain. The question is not "is it somehow possible to pölay mech", the question is "is it as good as bio and therefor a viable strategy". Sure I can play mech and one day win a game with it because my opponent was dumb, but why would I if I could have won all those games with bio? The protoss players can blink harass the entire game, move his mobile army around, take all bases on the map...if you play tanks you will spend the entire game sieging and unsiegeing trying to protect your expos just to finally be greeted by air toss, same as TvZ lategame where your tanks are useless against broods. You cant split your army or it will get stomped, so how do you protect more than 3 or 4 bases? For example on star station. Imo the only mech style that could work is hellbat thor but I tried that like 50 games, even made ghosts, vikings and everything needed but in the end got overrun by either 25 gateways warping in mass stalker to finish off my wounded mech army after barely killing all immortals/archons, or by carrier tempest templer... Your question reflects the earnest desire of all terrans, and the most terrify nightmare of all toss and zergs, which is, IF MECH CANNOT ROLL OVER MY OPPONENT AS STRONG AS MY GOOD OLD BIO BUILD, THEN IT IS NOT A VIABLE STRATEGY. But I do agree with you one part, why would any terrans go mech, when bio now is so much "FUN" to use since medivac are "finally a good unit in the latest patch" and my bio ball doesnt seems to fear storm and colossi. So how you feel playing a deathball now? Thats right, unable to freely split your army and struggling to deal with multi prong drops are the signatures of toss throughout the whole 2 years in WOL. And welcome to mech playstyle, because unlike bio ball, mech is all about deathballing.
You seem to be a mad protoss player, but you forget that the protoss deathball is very mobile compared to terran mech. Colossi can walk up and down cliffs and dont need to siege. If you get dropped you can just warpin some units wherever you want and defend it. If a mech terran is dropped with a warpprism and there are say 2 immortals in his base, what does he do? Unsiege all tanks or take all thors and move them back to the base which takes about 2 minutes while the immortals and warped in zealots killed all addons, depots and armorys? Then when the drop is finally cleaned up the protoss deathball rolls in the front and takes out 1-2 bases till the slow mech army is fianlly back in position, then everything begins from new. Terran mech is not as mobile and forgiving as protoss, with derp I have warpins, dont forget that. A single warpprism means you lose.
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I play mech exclusively in HotS againts P and it works if you dont play it like bio or like againts zerg. Againts P you have to be very aggressive while you can do it, and all game long you have to harass toss, with banshees, drops. Even multidrops with 4tanks 4hellbats are good and while you harass you can decide to play defensively, to get 6-7 bases, or you can decide to try to kill your opponent on 4bases (3 is just not cutting it). And with this aggresiveness you can actively scout what is the toss doing. If he goes for air you have to build air too with thors. (thors are actually the best thing you can get on the ground vs toss backed up with 5-6 siege tanks, more than that is just a waste.) Ghosts, a lot of them, a couple of raven to get PDDs, or a couple of key SMs, and reinforce with hellbats healed by 3-4 medivacs to tank for your units.
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On December 11 2012 00:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 19:52 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 10 2012 19:27 Qikz wrote:On December 10 2012 19:24 Everlong wrote:On December 10 2012 19:09 submarine wrote:
Generally speaking:
Tanks are just too weak against toss units. Sieged up tanks just do not trade well with toss units except maybe sentries and templars. That is a simple fact. It is true in WoL and in HotS. Go to the unit tester and A-move a chargelot, immortal archon army into sieged up tanks. It's not even a close fight. Now imagine the toss would do some splitting, or drops! If you want to make positional tank based TvP possible sieged up siegetanks need to trade well with normal toss ground units.
As others already have said: The best solution i can think of is to add a damage upgrade to tanks against shields at either the armory or the fusion core. That way you can directly tune tanks without affecting the other match-ups or 111s. In the long run you would still have to get some ghosts to deal with immortals.
Tanks trade mobility for firepower, but right now the firepower is just not there. Yeah, I think that is true if you want to play the traditional BW style mech (which truly is mech). But I'm not sure this playstyle has it's place and bright future in SC2 due to the nature of how units clump, how much dmg they do, how fast the game is and how the maps look like. Blizzard wants Terran to use all tech paths. But who knows. Now it's good time to try to buff tank and see how it playes out. But I'm afraid that if they were ever willing to do so, they would've done it before all those changes supposed to help mech. Blizzard is just not going to buff tanks I'm afraid. I think they will buff tanks, but they wanted to try everything else before they tried it to see if it really was the weak tank causing the issues or not. They made the warhound as a "core" unit for HOTS after all. I think they know the Tank "problem" in TvP and they just don't want mech to be BW like, for whatever reason. On December 10 2012 19:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On December 10 2012 18:05 Sissors wrote:On December 10 2012 17:55 AngryPenguin wrote:
People don't understand that mass tank is not "mech", they start to mass tanks and they think that everything is fine with that.. Have you ever tried to play a game by mass colossi? (lol)
Mech IS mass tanks. Sure augmented by other units, but mech is the positional play inherent to tanks. Sure you can make a hellbat - thor army, but thats not what is meant by mech. i stopped using cloakshees long ago. maybe i forgot a few references in the guide about this.. I would say more than a few  Disagree... any heavily factory based composition is mech. Maybe you should call mass tanks as BW style mech, but even that sounds weird. SC2's a different game, units have changed and so do the strategies. Also, just because tanks are much more positional than other mech units doesn't mean those other mech units still aren't more positional than bio. Their slow nature and transformation abilities make it more important to position them before the battle, unlike bio where you are faster and can reposition easier. If you are talking about mass tanks... why not just call it mass tanks? Or tank heavy mech. Otherwise if I talk about thor hellion tank. with less than half of my army being mech, I will have to call it thor hellion tank banshee all the time...? You can build so many hellions, if I have 3 reactor factories and 3 TL factories on 3 base like Liquid Sea, and I'm saving up more lots of hellions to suicide them at 2 of his bases (which have lots of canons), while also saving some for defense, and my hellion supply is larger than half my army... suddenly it's not mass tank, and it's not mech? I don't think so You know that by "mech" people are not referring to the unit description or the building it comes from, but about the play style. Marine Tank is much more mech like then Thor+Hellbat. Hell, Thor/ Hellbat plays much more like bio then mech. Though i agree we should probably use terms like: Tank based mech, to be more clear. And lets not kid ourselfs with "positioning" here, a Thor Hellbat composition is a "1a" comp, without the positioning aspects of Tank based comps and without the micro abilities of bio. Thors in general are ugly units when massed. First of all I don't think a significant majority of the people consider that to be the definition of mech. Yes, mech has been iconically defined by positional siege tank play from BW, but that doesn't have to be the same with SC2. Even in SC1, many times a player would have a very very high goliath count to deal with carriers, much more than his tanks. If we were to define what he's doing in that particular moment, or even in the overall duration of the game if they were doing carrier vs goliath for that long, would we no longer call it mech? What playstyle would we refer it to, goliaths? It's similar to how we both agree on trying to be more specific about things (like tank based mech), we could call it goliath heavy mech, but even then it means that it isn't the only kind of mech. As we can see, tanks are quite weaker in SC2 in many aspects, and thus are already used in different ways. They are still positioning units, but because of their even small differences in usage, it's already a different style. Also if we are to define it by play style, then how shall we define play style? The overall focus of the player in a game? The overall intended focus of the player from the start of the game, before anything happens? Let's take a game where a mech player is going hellion siege tank. He happens to burn all of his opponents' probes due to a mistake he made. Since the terran doesn't want to drag it out, he attacks with all his SCVs+2-3 tanks + Hellions, before siege mode is even done. He kills the protoss. Are we here to then say he played bio? The playstyle is certainly not positional -- he harassed like a bio player and attacked aggressively. If someone asks "did he go bio or mech", what will the answer be? He was intending to go mech but ended up playing more like bio. So would it not be ok to ask "did he go bio or mech" but instead he must ask "did he open with barracks tech and barracks units or did he open with factory tech and factory units"? Also, although a thor/hellion kind of composition can 1a, especially when ahead (and usually used as an all-in build or push), 1a'ing isn't the maximum you can micro your army to, and thus we shouldn't describe it as a 1a composition. For example, a mass baneling army will destroy a thor hellion composition, as seen in Nestea vs Nada in GSL, on Belshir Beach despite having so many BFH in front of his thors. You can 1a but even with protoss deathballs that is an exaggeration. If you remember thor hellion boxer vs zenio back in GSL, he noticed Zenio's composition and spread out his thors so much so that banelings and fungals would do almost nothing. He would run his hellions behind his thors, instead of tanking for his thors, just like marines running behind tanks, forcing the infestors and banelings to be ineffective, while the still alive hellions prevent the zerglings from engaging and disallowing them from surrounding the hellions. Whether or not the majority of the players just clump up and 1a doesn't matter, when there is a significant advantage to positioning them, and because of that people should strive to micro them and not just 1a, even pros. Nada got punished heavily by it, so there is no reason not to micro your army to the best you can, even if you are ahead. I agree with the marine tank being a lot like mech, but it is also a lot like bio. But again if we were to strictly define it by playstyle, then would bomber's 3 base marine tank build (used several months ago to success) be considered mech since he literally defends and does not drop or harass, and just does a 3 base push?
Honestly, i think this blog explains it better then i could ever do: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=360325
We could rename the barracks to factory 0.5, and add mechanical status to the marine and marauder and we would have "mech" right (ironicly, that's what Blizzard was doing with the Warhound lol)? Of course not, mech as a style is something rather unique to starcraft. Use long range but imobile units to control areas of the map, so on and so forth. The siege tank is what makes this style what it is, there's just no getting around that.
On mass Thors. Come on, doing a little spreading is positioningor micro? That is at most a small tactic that is used only on occasion...hardly a characteristic of the style. Like i've said, you don't have the positioning aspects of tank-mech nor the micro of bio. It is a very boring way to play, let alone spectate. Similar to BL/C/Inf actually. Slow moving,easy to control death army, BORING.
I think it's worth fighting for this unique style instead of being all jolly that we can mass Thors and pretend it's interesting.
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On December 11 2012 01:52 pOriishan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 00:35 Penev wrote:
On the energy bar thing: Mech should have some energy bars to keep HT's a somewhat viable choice. Storms don't quite effect mech like it does bio. I think you don't have any idea what you're saying. HTs are good against mech with both feedback and storm. Tbh, feedback is the only reason makes mech weak in WoL ( Thor with stupid engergy bar for nothing ). And storm does damage well against vikings, helions, thors, scv repairs.
Sure; Lots of Protoss will take the templar route instead of the robo (or now air) route against mech. It's obviously the most (cost) effective route to take.. Furthermore; We're not talking about wol, we're talking about an unfinished hots.
There is no need to insult btw. If you think someone is wrong just explain why or expect people to return the favour.
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On December 11 2012 02:08 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 01:52 pOriishan wrote:On December 11 2012 00:35 Penev wrote:
On the energy bar thing: Mech should have some energy bars to keep HT's a somewhat viable choice. Storms don't quite effect mech like it does bio. I think you don't have any idea what you're saying. HTs are good against mech with both feedback and storm. Tbh, feedback is the only reason makes mech weak in WoL ( Thor with stupid engergy bar for nothing ). And storm does damage well against vikings, helions, thors, scv repairs. Sure; Lots of Protoss will take the templar route instead of the robo (or now air) route against mech. It's obviously the most (cost) effective route to take.. Furthermore; We're not talking about wol, we're talking about an unfinished hots. There is no need to insult btw. If you think someone is wrong just explain why or expect people to return the favour.
HTs are good, because they are aoe, they are giving you archons and they are good and they can deal with banshees costeffectively, which stalkers are failing really hard to do.
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On December 11 2012 02:06 Breach_hu wrote:
I play mech exclusively in HotS againts P and it works if you dont play it like bio or like againts zerg. Againts P you have to be very aggressive while you can do it, and all game long you have to harass toss, with banshees, drops. Even multidrops with 4tanks 4hellbats are good and while you harass you can decide to play defensively, to get 6-7 bases, or you can decide to try to kill your opponent on 4bases (3 is just not cutting it). And with this aggresiveness you can actively scout what is the toss doing. If he goes for air you have to build air too with thors. (thors are actually the best thing you can get on the ground vs toss backed up with 5-6 siege tanks, more than that is just a waste.) Ghosts, a lot of them, a couple of raven to get PDDs, or a couple of key SMs, and reinforce with hellbats healed by 3-4 medivacs to tank for your units.
I suppose you are Master or GM.So please post your replays,so we all can watch them and finally learn how to do it,OK??? Thank you very much
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On December 11 2012 01:48 RandomMan wrote:
To all the people saying mech is NOT OK, not viable and terran know how to play: just rage whine in B.net and ask for more buff. Let me suggest, maybe next patch should merge infantry upgrades with mech and air, available in E.bay of course, and cost only 100 minerals 100 gas, so that terrans can finally "use" ghost for mech play.
Oh wait, ghost is not mech alright, so why dont we add one more ability to tanks using cooldown with 10 casting range and 15 leash range that deals 300 damages to a single ground target with 3 seconds charge up? That should make mech "VIABLE" now.
Wanna see you using Ghosts combined with sieged tanks in Daybreak on your 4th,while blink stalkers are in your main and DTs/Zealots are in your 3rd and Protoss main army is aproaching breaking the rocks between you....You just post replays of you succeeding and we all will stfmu...
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On December 11 2012 02:13 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 02:06 Breach_hu wrote:
I play mech exclusively in HotS againts P and it works if you dont play it like bio or like againts zerg. Againts P you have to be very aggressive while you can do it, and all game long you have to harass toss, with banshees, drops. Even multidrops with 4tanks 4hellbats are good and while you harass you can decide to play defensively, to get 6-7 bases, or you can decide to try to kill your opponent on 4bases (3 is just not cutting it). And with this aggresiveness you can actively scout what is the toss doing. If he goes for air you have to build air too with thors. (thors are actually the best thing you can get on the ground vs toss backed up with 5-6 siege tanks, more than that is just a waste.) Ghosts, a lot of them, a couple of raven to get PDDs, or a couple of key SMs, and reinforce with hellbats healed by 3-4 medivacs to tank for your units. I suppose you are Master or GM.So please post your replays,so we all can watch them and finally learn how to do it,OK??? Thank you very much
Im NSHGolem on HotS, currently rank 1-2 gm.
I just uploaded 5-6 replay to drop.sc, waiting for come up in the list to give you the link.
http://drop.sc/283350 vs NSHTassadar
http://drop.sc/283346 vs VegaZeth
http://drop.sc/283347 vs mTlpal
http://drop.sc/283348 vs mTlpal2
http://drop.sc/283349 vs SIV
these are from the ladder of HotS, 2base timings, 3base timings, management game.
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On December 11 2012 02:21 Breach_hu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 02:13 Dvriel wrote:On December 11 2012 02:06 Breach_hu wrote:
I play mech exclusively in HotS againts P and it works if you dont play it like bio or like againts zerg. Againts P you have to be very aggressive while you can do it, and all game long you have to harass toss, with banshees, drops. Even multidrops with 4tanks 4hellbats are good and while you harass you can decide to play defensively, to get 6-7 bases, or you can decide to try to kill your opponent on 4bases (3 is just not cutting it). And with this aggresiveness you can actively scout what is the toss doing. If he goes for air you have to build air too with thors. (thors are actually the best thing you can get on the ground vs toss backed up with 5-6 siege tanks, more than that is just a waste.) Ghosts, a lot of them, a couple of raven to get PDDs, or a couple of key SMs, and reinforce with hellbats healed by 3-4 medivacs to tank for your units. I suppose you are Master or GM.So please post your replays,so we all can watch them and finally learn how to do it,OK??? Thank you very much Im NSHGolem on HotS, currently rank 1-2 gm. I just uploaded 5-6 replay to drop.sc, waiting for come up in the list to give you the link. http://drop.sc/283350 vs NSHTassadar http://drop.sc/283346 vs VegaZeth http://drop.sc/283347 vs mTlpal http://drop.sc/283348 vs mTlpal2 http://drop.sc/283349 vs SIV these are from the ladder of HotS, 2base timings, 3base timings, management game.
Ghost/air/mech was also viable in WOL if you just turtled enough. But this still isn't a very nice playstyle. Terran should be able to attack with mech without having to wait 35+min to get a strong enough deathball. You also say anything more than 5-6 tanks is a waste which is probably true, but still sad.
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On December 11 2012 02:09 Breach_hu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 02:08 Penev wrote:On December 11 2012 01:52 pOriishan wrote:On December 11 2012 00:35 Penev wrote:
On the energy bar thing: Mech should have some energy bars to keep HT's a somewhat viable choice. Storms don't quite effect mech like it does bio. I think you don't have any idea what you're saying. HTs are good against mech with both feedback and storm. Tbh, feedback is the only reason makes mech weak in WoL ( Thor with stupid engergy bar for nothing ). And storm does damage well against vikings, helions, thors, scv repairs. Sure; Lots of Protoss will take the templar route instead of the robo (or now air) route against mech. It's obviously the most (cost) effective route to take.. Furthermore; We're not talking about wol, we're talking about an unfinished hots. There is no need to insult btw. If you think someone is wrong just explain why or expect people to return the favour. HTs are good, because they are aoe, they are giving you archons and they are good and they can deal with banshees costeffectively, which stalkers are failing really hard to do.
I assume you agree that if a terran spread out his tanks (like he should) storm isn't the weapon of choice. Of course there are instances where the templar route can be beneficial but if you had the choice robo or templar which would you prefer (most of the time). By removing (too much) feedback options this choice will get too easy is what I'm trying to say. There is a reason for these energy bars to exist apart from just having a spell mechanic.
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On December 11 2012 02:06 Aquila- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 01:22 RandomMan wrote:On December 11 2012 00:47 Aquila- wrote:
Yes blizzard buffed mech, but the wrong way. Imo they have no idea why mech tvp is not viable. Their buffs helped but the core problems still remain. The question is not "is it somehow possible to pölay mech", the question is "is it as good as bio and therefor a viable strategy". Sure I can play mech and one day win a game with it because my opponent was dumb, but why would I if I could have won all those games with bio? The protoss players can blink harass the entire game, move his mobile army around, take all bases on the map...if you play tanks you will spend the entire game sieging and unsiegeing trying to protect your expos just to finally be greeted by air toss, same as TvZ lategame where your tanks are useless against broods. You cant split your army or it will get stomped, so how do you protect more than 3 or 4 bases? For example on star station. Imo the only mech style that could work is hellbat thor but I tried that like 50 games, even made ghosts, vikings and everything needed but in the end got overrun by either 25 gateways warping in mass stalker to finish off my wounded mech army after barely killing all immortals/archons, or by carrier tempest templer... Your question reflects the earnest desire of all terrans, and the most terrify nightmare of all toss and zergs, which is, IF MECH CANNOT ROLL OVER MY OPPONENT AS STRONG AS MY GOOD OLD BIO BUILD, THEN IT IS NOT A VIABLE STRATEGY. But I do agree with you one part, why would any terrans go mech, when bio now is so much "FUN" to use since medivac are "finally a good unit in the latest patch" and my bio ball doesnt seems to fear storm and colossi. So how you feel playing a deathball now? Thats right, unable to freely split your army and struggling to deal with multi prong drops are the signatures of toss throughout the whole 2 years in WOL. And welcome to mech playstyle, because unlike bio ball, mech is all about deathballing. You seem to be a mad protoss player, but you forget that the protoss deathball is very mobile compared to terran mech. Colossi can walk up and down cliffs and dont need to siege. If you get dropped you can just warpin some units wherever you want and defend it. If a mech terran is dropped with a warpprism and there are say 2 immortals in his base, what does he do? Unsiege all tanks or take all thors and move them back to the base which takes about 2 minutes while the immortals and warped in zealots killed all addons, depots and armorys? Then when the drop is finally cleaned up the protoss deathball rolls in the front and takes out 1-2 bases till the slow mech army is fianlly back in position, then everything begins from new. Terran mech is not as mobile and forgiving as protoss, with derp I have warpins, dont forget that. A single warpprism means you lose.
First I play mostly random because I am not a competitive player, so my playstyle do not necessarily pro in one race and then just forget about the other two races. If terran end up OP after HOTS release I actually did not mind much as I always get a chance to play as terran and get some easy win.
Warp in some units to defend it, yes only when you are not max out, or nearly dried out of resources. Many terrans worship warp ins like an almighty technique that summon units without the need of minerals gas and supplies. Sadly its not true, in fact toss units cost the most compare to terran and zerg, and the effectiveness of pure, freshly warp in units without support from AOE damages are even less in front of the new upgrade of medivac. Not to mention if you just able to warp in 4 or 5 units, because you just did not have enough free supply to utilize before you supply capped, is not going to deal very well versus multi prong drop.
Oh sorry i thought turrets was still available in terran building options, I did not realize that terrans now cannot deal with that "single" warp prism, sad.
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On December 11 2012 02:28 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 02:21 Breach_hu wrote:On December 11 2012 02:13 Dvriel wrote:On December 11 2012 02:06 Breach_hu wrote:
I play mech exclusively in HotS againts P and it works if you dont play it like bio or like againts zerg. Againts P you have to be very aggressive while you can do it, and all game long you have to harass toss, with banshees, drops. Even multidrops with 4tanks 4hellbats are good and while you harass you can decide to play defensively, to get 6-7 bases, or you can decide to try to kill your opponent on 4bases (3 is just not cutting it). And with this aggresiveness you can actively scout what is the toss doing. If he goes for air you have to build air too with thors. (thors are actually the best thing you can get on the ground vs toss backed up with 5-6 siege tanks, more than that is just a waste.) Ghosts, a lot of them, a couple of raven to get PDDs, or a couple of key SMs, and reinforce with hellbats healed by 3-4 medivacs to tank for your units. I suppose you are Master or GM.So please post your replays,so we all can watch them and finally learn how to do it,OK??? Thank you very much Im NSHGolem on HotS, currently rank 1-2 gm. I just uploaded 5-6 replay to drop.sc, waiting for come up in the list to give you the link. http://drop.sc/283350 vs NSHTassadar http://drop.sc/283346 vs VegaZeth http://drop.sc/283347 vs mTlpal http://drop.sc/283348 vs mTlpal2 http://drop.sc/283349 vs SIV these are from the ladder of HotS, 2base timings, 3base timings, management game. Ghost/air/mech was also viable in WOL if you just turtled enough. But this still isn't a very nice playstyle. Terran should be able to attack with mech without having to wait 35+min to get a strong enough deathball. You also say anything more than 5-6 tanks is a waste which is probably true, but still sad.
I wouldn't call something that almost never happens at pro-level 'viable'.
With Morrow gone from HotS I doubt we will have any pro player exploring mech usage TvP in beta.
It's a shame but it will take quite some time to see if things have changes sufficiently and by then it may be too late to fix anything. Personally I doubt the recent changes will make mech work TvP as I feel bio compositions were buffed more than mech has.
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Well a good protoss player will always have free supply to warpin units, a chargelot or dt warpin is very effective against drops. Once you are maxed you put up more cannons, leave a templer to feedback the medivac. Done. On the other side yes terran has turrets, but they dont defend against blink stalkers, often enough I have seen the protoss sniping turrets in order to drop after that or even pick them off with tempests and using multiple speedprisms lategame. There is always some way to get units into the terran base and then he is fucked. Also you cant just put 2 mines at every possible location because they take TWO supply and eat away at your army size so you would die to a frontal attack.
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On December 11 2012 01:52 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 01:28 RandomMan wrote:On December 11 2012 01:25 Everlong wrote:On December 11 2012 01:07 RandomMan wrote:On December 11 2012 00:55 Everlong wrote:On December 11 2012 00:35 Penev wrote:
On the energy bar thing: Mech should have some energy bars to keep HT's a somewhat viable choice. Storms don't quite effect mech like it does bio. I mean, c'mon.. Mech finally just got something.. How, why do you want HT's to counter mech? You've got whole robo tech + zealots + stargate tech against mech.. You really want all tech paths to counter mech right? Zealots counter mech in HOTS? Helbat got remove like warhound? Robo does not counter mech, depending whether you recognize air units, particularly raven as part of mech. Oh my god, I think we can now abandon this discussion.. "Robo does not counter mech" is enough for me. Guys, save your time, we might try next time.. Please enlighten me how an immortal kills off, or simply any unit in robo, kills off raven, before the seeker missile 1 shot immortal or reduce colossi to 50 hp? Against my better judgement I will respond to you RandomMan, even though you have been acting like a child throughout this thread (where the Mods at?). Using a 200 gas unit, that takes 2 minutes to "counter" a 100 gas unit, that takes at most 55 seconds to make, isn't generally an example of a counter. It's akin to saying Carriers "counter" Roaches. Yes, they do beat them, but it's not realistic to use them for that purpose throughout the game. Of course it could be useful to have 1 Raven now with cheaper DT's, the usefullness of PDD, auto-turrets to block chargelots, and now HSM to kill off 1 Immortal. That's enough utility to make them worth it for sure IMO. But as far as making multiple Ravens just to counter multiple Immortals - there's only one specific situation where that makes any sense at all: In a maxed out situation where the 2 supply Raven killing the 4 supply Immortal is a supply-efficient counter AND when resources aren't a limiting factor to your composition. I.E. you can't max out on Ravens in your first max out, or you are vulnerable to attacks before that, wherein you have traded 200 gas to remove a 100 gas unit from the fight, that's not cost-efficient. Not being cost-efficient in engagements (with gas at least) against Protoss - who should have more bases than you - is a recipe for failure.
So... toss struggling to get out a unit that cost 150 gas and takes 1 minutes 30 seconds to "counter" a 0 gas unit, that takes at most 25 seconds to make, is not generally an example of a counter,. Or maybe worse, Using a 200 gas unit, that takes 1 minutes 15 seconds to "counter" a 0 gas unit, that takes at most 25 seconds to make, is the worse counter ever... okay I understand now, that is the reason why most toss struggling against bio ball, because they choose the wrong counter, for more than 2 years.
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United States4883 Posts
On December 11 2012 02:06 Breach_hu wrote:
I play mech exclusively in HotS againts P and it works if you dont play it like bio or like againts zerg. Againts P you have to be very aggressive while you can do it, and all game long you have to harass toss, with banshees, drops. Even multidrops with 4tanks 4hellbats are good and while you harass you can decide to play defensively, to get 6-7 bases, or you can decide to try to kill your opponent on 4bases (3 is just not cutting it). And with this aggresiveness you can actively scout what is the toss doing. If he goes for air you have to build air too with thors. (thors are actually the best thing you can get on the ground vs toss backed up with 5-6 siege tanks, more than that is just a waste.) Ghosts, a lot of them, a couple of raven to get PDDs, or a couple of key SMs, and reinforce with hellbats healed by 3-4 medivacs to tank for your units.
I agree...the key to playing against protoss is just putting on a TON of pressure (ironically). I've been playing around with mass hellion openers, and they are actually surprisingly strong. 40 hellions > blink stalkers. I think if more terran players start playing the aggressive mech style (hellion/banshee or aggressive widow mining), mech would start to unwrap a little more in this matchup. Currently, everyone is playing the super turtle style of mech that you do in TvZ and TvT, but it's just not possible like that in TvP. I suggest everyone take a look at LiquidSea as well as some of the more aggressive openings Morrow has been working on.
The lategame is surprisingly in mech's favor if you can stay fairly equal on bases and get up like 8 full energy ghosts.
On December 11 2012 02:51 RandomMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 01:52 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 11 2012 01:28 RandomMan wrote:On December 11 2012 01:25 Everlong wrote:On December 11 2012 01:07 RandomMan wrote:On December 11 2012 00:55 Everlong wrote:On December 11 2012 00:35 Penev wrote:
On the energy bar thing: Mech should have some energy bars to keep HT's a somewhat viable choice. Storms don't quite effect mech like it does bio. I mean, c'mon.. Mech finally just got something.. How, why do you want HT's to counter mech? You've got whole robo tech + zealots + stargate tech against mech.. You really want all tech paths to counter mech right? Zealots counter mech in HOTS? Helbat got remove like warhound? Robo does not counter mech, depending whether you recognize air units, particularly raven as part of mech. Oh my god, I think we can now abandon this discussion.. "Robo does not counter mech" is enough for me. Guys, save your time, we might try next time.. Please enlighten me how an immortal kills off, or simply any unit in robo, kills off raven, before the seeker missile 1 shot immortal or reduce colossi to 50 hp? Against my better judgement I will respond to you RandomMan, even though you have been acting like a child throughout this thread (where the Mods at?). Using a 200 gas unit, that takes 2 minutes to "counter" a 100 gas unit, that takes at most 55 seconds to make, isn't generally an example of a counter. It's akin to saying Carriers "counter" Roaches. Yes, they do beat them, but it's not realistic to use them for that purpose throughout the game. Of course it could be useful to have 1 Raven now with cheaper DT's, the usefullness of PDD, auto-turrets to block chargelots, and now HSM to kill off 1 Immortal. That's enough utility to make them worth it for sure IMO. But as far as making multiple Ravens just to counter multiple Immortals - there's only one specific situation where that makes any sense at all: In a maxed out situation where the 2 supply Raven killing the 4 supply Immortal is a supply-efficient counter AND when resources aren't a limiting factor to your composition. I.E. you can't max out on Ravens in your first max out, or you are vulnerable to attacks before that, wherein you have traded 200 gas to remove a 100 gas unit from the fight, that's not cost-efficient. Not being cost-efficient in engagements (with gas at least) against Protoss - who should have more bases than you - is a recipe for failure. So... toss struggling to get out a unit that cost 150 gas and takes 1 minutes 30 seconds to "counter" a 0 gas unit, that takes at most 25 seconds to make, is not generally an example of a counter,. Or maybe worse, Using a 200 gas unit, that takes 2 minutes 15 seconds to "counter" a 0 gas unit, that takes at most 25 seconds to make, is the worse counter ever... okay I understand now, that is the reason why most toss struggling against bio ball, because they choose the wrong counter, for more than 2 years.
To you, sir, I will ask how fair a fight between a single marine and a single colossus really is. Then I will ask you how fair a fight between colossus and marines with no CS/stim and no medivacs is. Blizzard is doing a good job of creating softer counters, and I think that's something we should appreciate.
Let's behave, both of you.
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On December 11 2012 02:45 Aquila- wrote:
Well a good protoss player will always have free supply to warpin units, a chargelot or dt warpin is very effective against drops. Once you are maxed you put up more cannons, leave a templer to feedback the medivac. Done. On the other side yes terran has turrets, but they dont defend against blink stalkers, often enough I have seen the protoss sniping turrets in order to drop after that or even pick them off with tempests and using multiple speedprisms lategame. There is always some way to get units into the terran base and then he is fucked. Also you cant just put 2 mines at every possible location because they take TWO supply and eat away at your army size so you would die to a frontal attack.
Guys, if a "good" toss player leave too much free supply, then the deathball is simply not strong enough and going to be roll over by bioball frontal attack. And terran can replace some SCVs with mules, making their army supply even more in the late game.
So toss leaving templar back home did not take TWO supply and eat away at your army size, while widow mine will do so. Well I get it, templar is free of supplies.
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On December 11 2012 02:52 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 02:51 RandomMan wrote:On December 11 2012 01:52 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 11 2012 01:28 RandomMan wrote:On December 11 2012 01:25 Everlong wrote:On December 11 2012 01:07 RandomMan wrote:On December 11 2012 00:55 Everlong wrote:On December 11 2012 00:35 Penev wrote:
On the energy bar thing: Mech should have some energy bars to keep HT's a somewhat viable choice. Storms don't quite effect mech like it does bio. I mean, c'mon.. Mech finally just got something.. How, why do you want HT's to counter mech? You've got whole robo tech + zealots + stargate tech against mech.. You really want all tech paths to counter mech right? Zealots counter mech in HOTS? Helbat got remove like warhound? Robo does not counter mech, depending whether you recognize air units, particularly raven as part of mech. Oh my god, I think we can now abandon this discussion.. "Robo does not counter mech" is enough for me. Guys, save your time, we might try next time.. Please enlighten me how an immortal kills off, or simply any unit in robo, kills off raven, before the seeker missile 1 shot immortal or reduce colossi to 50 hp? Against my better judgement I will respond to you RandomMan, even though you have been acting like a child throughout this thread (where the Mods at?). Using a 200 gas unit, that takes 2 minutes to "counter" a 100 gas unit, that takes at most 55 seconds to make, isn't generally an example of a counter. It's akin to saying Carriers "counter" Roaches. Yes, they do beat them, but it's not realistic to use them for that purpose throughout the game. Of course it could be useful to have 1 Raven now with cheaper DT's, the usefullness of PDD, auto-turrets to block chargelots, and now HSM to kill off 1 Immortal. That's enough utility to make them worth it for sure IMO. But as far as making multiple Ravens just to counter multiple Immortals - there's only one specific situation where that makes any sense at all: In a maxed out situation where the 2 supply Raven killing the 4 supply Immortal is a supply-efficient counter AND when resources aren't a limiting factor to your composition. I.E. you can't max out on Ravens in your first max out, or you are vulnerable to attacks before that, wherein you have traded 200 gas to remove a 100 gas unit from the fight, that's not cost-efficient. Not being cost-efficient in engagements (with gas at least) against Protoss - who should have more bases than you - is a recipe for failure. So... toss struggling to get out a unit that cost 150 gas and takes 1 minutes 30 seconds to "counter" a 0 gas unit, that takes at most 25 seconds to make, is not generally an example of a counter,. Or maybe worse, Using a 200 gas unit, that takes 2 minutes 15 seconds to "counter" a 0 gas unit, that takes at most 25 seconds to make, is the worse counter ever... okay I understand now, that is the reason why most toss struggling against bio ball, because they choose the wrong counter, for more than 2 years. To you, sir, I will ask how fair a fight between a single marine and a single colossus really is. Then I will ask you how fair a fight between colossus and marines with no CS/stim and no medivacs is. Blizzard is doing a good job of creating softer counters, and I think that's something we should appreciate. Let's behave, both of you.
To you too, sir, I will ask how fair a fight between a single raven and a single immortal really is. Then I will ask you how fair a fight between ravens and immortals even with 3-3-3 upgrades is.
This is not a soft counter, its a hard counter.
PS. new seeker missile cast range is 10, which outrange feedback.
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On December 11 2012 02:21 Breach_hu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 02:13 Dvriel wrote:On December 11 2012 02:06 Breach_hu wrote:
I play mech exclusively in HotS againts P and it works if you dont play it like bio or like againts zerg. Againts P you have to be very aggressive while you can do it, and all game long you have to harass toss, with banshees, drops. Even multidrops with 4tanks 4hellbats are good and while you harass you can decide to play defensively, to get 6-7 bases, or you can decide to try to kill your opponent on 4bases (3 is just not cutting it). And with this aggresiveness you can actively scout what is the toss doing. If he goes for air you have to build air too with thors. (thors are actually the best thing you can get on the ground vs toss backed up with 5-6 siege tanks, more than that is just a waste.) Ghosts, a lot of them, a couple of raven to get PDDs, or a couple of key SMs, and reinforce with hellbats healed by 3-4 medivacs to tank for your units. I suppose you are Master or GM.So please post your replays,so we all can watch them and finally learn how to do it,OK??? Thank you very much Im NSHGolem on HotS, currently rank 1-2 gm. I just uploaded 5-6 replay to drop.sc, waiting for come up in the list to give you the link. http://drop.sc/283350 vs NSHTassadar http://drop.sc/283346 vs VegaZeth http://drop.sc/283347 vs mTlpal http://drop.sc/283348 vs mTlpal2 http://drop.sc/283349 vs SIV these are from the ladder of HotS, 2base timings, 3base timings, management game.
Only watched the last 2 games. But from what I got from those 2 is that you dont use siege tanks besides some opening timing attacks, but just stick to either factory play with hellbats/thors/some support, or factory augmented bio.
Your opponents sometimes also had some interesting decisions sometimes. How the idea went from: oh 8 hellions are in an expansion of mine, I got enough gas, to: lets warp in 15 zealots (numbers roughly) is a mystery to me.
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EPT
