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On December 10 2012 18:05 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 17:55 AngryPenguin wrote:
People don't understand that mass tank is not "mech", they start to mass tanks and they think that everything is fine with that.. Have you ever tried to play a game by mass colossi? (lol)
Mech IS mass tanks. Sure augmented by other units, but mech is the positional play inherent to tanks. Sure you can make a hellbat - thor army, but thats not what is meant by mech. Show nested quote +i stopped using cloakshees long ago. maybe i forgot a few references in the guide about this.. I would say more than a few 
Disagree... any heavily factory based composition is mech. Maybe you should call mass tanks as BW style mech, but even that sounds weird. SC2's a different game, units have changed and so do the strategies.
Also, just because tanks are much more positional than other mech units doesn't mean those other mech units still aren't more positional than bio. Their slow nature and transformation abilities make it more important to position them before the battle, unlike bio where you are faster and can reposition easier.
If you are talking about mass tanks... why not just call it mass tanks? Or tank heavy mech. Otherwise if I talk about thor hellion tank. with less than half of my army being mech, I will have to call it thor hellion tank banshee all the time...? You can build so many hellions, if I have 3 reactor factories and 3 TL factories on 3 base like Liquid Sea, and I'm saving up more lots of hellions to suicide them at 2 of his bases (which have lots of canons), while also saving some for defense, and my hellion supply is larger than half my army... suddenly it's not mass tank, and it's not mech? I don't think so
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On December 10 2012 19:09 submarine wrote:
Generally speaking:
Tanks are just too weak against toss units. Sieged up tanks just do not trade well with toss units except maybe sentries and templars. That is a simple fact. It is true in WoL and in HotS. Go to the unit tester and A-move a chargelot, immortal archon army into sieged up tanks. It's not even a close fight. Now imagine the toss would do some splitting, or drops! If you want to make positional tank based TvP possible sieged up siegetanks need to trade well with normal toss ground units.
As others already have said: The best solution i can think of is to add a damage upgrade to tanks against shields at either the armory or the fusion core. That way you can directly tune tanks without affecting the other match-ups or 111s. In the long run you would still have to get some ghosts to deal with immortals.
Tanks trade mobility for firepower, but right now the firepower is just not there.
Yeah, I think that is true if you want to play the traditional BW style mech (which truly is mech). But I'm not sure this playstyle has it's place and bright future in SC2 due to the nature of how units clump, how much dmg they do, how fast the game is and how the maps look like. Blizzard wants Terran to use all tech paths. But who knows. Now it's good time to try to buff tank and see how it playes out. But I'm afraid that if they were ever willing to do so, they would've done it before all those changes supposed to help mech. Blizzard is just not going to buff tanks I'm afraid.
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On December 10 2012 19:24 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 19:09 submarine wrote:
Generally speaking:
Tanks are just too weak against toss units. Sieged up tanks just do not trade well with toss units except maybe sentries and templars. That is a simple fact. It is true in WoL and in HotS. Go to the unit tester and A-move a chargelot, immortal archon army into sieged up tanks. It's not even a close fight. Now imagine the toss would do some splitting, or drops! If you want to make positional tank based TvP possible sieged up siegetanks need to trade well with normal toss ground units.
As others already have said: The best solution i can think of is to add a damage upgrade to tanks against shields at either the armory or the fusion core. That way you can directly tune tanks without affecting the other match-ups or 111s. In the long run you would still have to get some ghosts to deal with immortals.
Tanks trade mobility for firepower, but right now the firepower is just not there. Yeah, I think that is true if you want to play the traditional BW style mech (which truly is mech). But I'm not sure this playstyle has it's place and bright future in SC2 due to the nature of how units clump, how much dmg they do, how fast the game is and how the maps look like. Blizzard wants Terran to use all tech paths. But who knows. Now it's good time to try to buff tank and see how it playes out. But I'm afraid that if they were ever willing to do so, they would've done it before all those changes supposed to help mech. Blizzard is just not going to buff tanks I'm afraid.
I think they will buff tanks, but they wanted to try everything else before they tried it to see if it really was the weak tank causing the issues or not.
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On December 10 2012 19:27 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 19:24 Everlong wrote:On December 10 2012 19:09 submarine wrote:
Generally speaking:
Tanks are just too weak against toss units. Sieged up tanks just do not trade well with toss units except maybe sentries and templars. That is a simple fact. It is true in WoL and in HotS. Go to the unit tester and A-move a chargelot, immortal archon army into sieged up tanks. It's not even a close fight. Now imagine the toss would do some splitting, or drops! If you want to make positional tank based TvP possible sieged up siegetanks need to trade well with normal toss ground units.
As others already have said: The best solution i can think of is to add a damage upgrade to tanks against shields at either the armory or the fusion core. That way you can directly tune tanks without affecting the other match-ups or 111s. In the long run you would still have to get some ghosts to deal with immortals.
Tanks trade mobility for firepower, but right now the firepower is just not there. Yeah, I think that is true if you want to play the traditional BW style mech (which truly is mech). But I'm not sure this playstyle has it's place and bright future in SC2 due to the nature of how units clump, how much dmg they do, how fast the game is and how the maps look like. Blizzard wants Terran to use all tech paths. But who knows. Now it's good time to try to buff tank and see how it playes out. But I'm afraid that if they were ever willing to do so, they would've done it before all those changes supposed to help mech. Blizzard is just not going to buff tanks I'm afraid. I think they will buff tanks, but they wanted to try everything else before they tried it to see if it really was the weak tank causing the issues or not.
That might be true after all.. This armory upgrade, giving tanks +dmg vs sheilds is fairly easy both to apply and to remove if things go wrong. But well, what could really go wrong here.. Should TvP turn into turtle 3 base mechfest, just get rid of it and leave this BW mech style rest in peace.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Should TvP turn into turtle 3 base mechfest, just get rid of it and leave this BW mech style rest in peace.
Uh, I'm not sure you understand.
Mech in TvP is a 3 base tutle fest because protoss is so strong in smaller engagements that you can't ever really push early on unless you get super ahead through hurassment.
I prefer mech and I always have, even if it doesn't work at the pro level and I never win any games I'm still going to play it. Bio for me is really, incredibly dull to watch and play. I don't think I'll bother watching TvP if all that happens is bio every game again. Mech is actually exciting, it's not on a timer to go win before the toss gets maxed and has his upgrades.
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On December 10 2012 19:36 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +Should TvP turn into turtle 3 base mechfest, just get rid of it and leave this BW mech style rest in peace. Uh, I'm not sure you understand. Mech in TvP is a 3 base tutle fest because protoss is so strong in smaller engagements that you can't ever really push early on unless you get super ahead through hurassment. I prefer mech and I always have, even if it doesn't work at the pro level and I never win any games I'm still going to play it and I'll continue to complain until they can make it work at the pro level. Bio for me is really, incredibly dull to watch and play. I don't think I'll bother watching TvP if all that happens is bio every game again. Mech is actually exciting, it's not on a timer to go win before the toss gets maxed and has his upgrades.
I am on you side. I mech all 3 matchups both in WoL and Hots. I'm just trying to identify, why is Blizzard so worried about tank buffs (TvP only with this upgrade). I hate bio to death myself..
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I think Blizzard are worried about tank buffs and have been since the start is the map design early on. Ever since early maps like Steppes of War the majority of the community seem to think tanks are fine as they are, in some cases that they're already OP (however if you play smartly, they're pretty much useless in everything bar TvT). They were powerful as they are at a time in TvZ, but then Life came along and just showed zerg players how to completely destroy mech in general.
I don't know, perhaps if they lowered mines supply cost (so you could have much more infront of your tanks) or lowered tanks to 2 with their current form then maybe BW style mech (which I'd class as even Tank/Hellion/Thor as BW stylish mech) then it might work, but currently they're trying other approaches.
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On December 10 2012 18:24 Everlong wrote:
I agree that openings and general transition into mech play is very problematic. Mainly because Protoss is very abusive early in the game and there are so many cheesy-gimmicky strategies you can face it's not even funny. You avoid those strategies playing bio and you don't even want to. MSC is problematic. It shuts down widow mines. Also 100/100 Dark shrine means you need ebay + turret or Raven, otherwise you can just lose the game right there. The list goes on..
But, once you get in control of the game, it's pretty damn good.
I think once we find solid opening (which was always problem), mech is certainly an option now (which wasn't).
I think the biggest problem is MSC beign able to shut down mines -> blink allin..
I still think that early Ghosts are the solution to your problem. 1RaxFE followed by 2 more Rax and a Ghost Academy isn't hard to pull off and it can deal quite well with most early Protoss Pushes, when you can land EMPs decently. DTs can be uncloaked, Sentry Energy emptied (no more FFs around your bunkers) and the Gateway units overall weakened by draining their shields.
Then with Ghosts already on the field you can transition into anything you like. You just have to do it, before Colossi come out, because with those your Ghosts get near useless suddenly. Or you have to keep him busy, e.g. with Cloakshees, while transitioning. So far this should also work in HotS and Ghosts are also useful, if the Protoss goes air.
How to go on though...well, I also see a big problem in HotS with Protoss going air. Blizzard is making Terran Mech somewhat better only to give Protoss even more options to counter it and force Terran into Bio once again. Another smaller problem (maybe just for me, because I like playing Skyterran against Protoss) is that the new Protoss air will not just shut down Mech, but probably also Skyterran (or atleast make it a lot harder to pull off).
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On December 10 2012 19:27 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 19:24 Everlong wrote:On December 10 2012 19:09 submarine wrote:
Generally speaking:
Tanks are just too weak against toss units. Sieged up tanks just do not trade well with toss units except maybe sentries and templars. That is a simple fact. It is true in WoL and in HotS. Go to the unit tester and A-move a chargelot, immortal archon army into sieged up tanks. It's not even a close fight. Now imagine the toss would do some splitting, or drops! If you want to make positional tank based TvP possible sieged up siegetanks need to trade well with normal toss ground units.
As others already have said: The best solution i can think of is to add a damage upgrade to tanks against shields at either the armory or the fusion core. That way you can directly tune tanks without affecting the other match-ups or 111s. In the long run you would still have to get some ghosts to deal with immortals.
Tanks trade mobility for firepower, but right now the firepower is just not there. Yeah, I think that is true if you want to play the traditional BW style mech (which truly is mech). But I'm not sure this playstyle has it's place and bright future in SC2 due to the nature of how units clump, how much dmg they do, how fast the game is and how the maps look like. Blizzard wants Terran to use all tech paths. But who knows. Now it's good time to try to buff tank and see how it playes out. But I'm afraid that if they were ever willing to do so, they would've done it before all those changes supposed to help mech. Blizzard is just not going to buff tanks I'm afraid. I think they will buff tanks, but they wanted to try everything else before they tried it to see if it really was the weak tank causing the issues or not.
They made the warhound as a "core" unit for HOTS after all. I think they know the Tank "problem" in TvP and they just don't want mech to be BW like, for whatever reason.
On December 10 2012 19:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 18:05 Sissors wrote:On December 10 2012 17:55 AngryPenguin wrote:
People don't understand that mass tank is not "mech", they start to mass tanks and they think that everything is fine with that.. Have you ever tried to play a game by mass colossi? (lol)
Mech IS mass tanks. Sure augmented by other units, but mech is the positional play inherent to tanks. Sure you can make a hellbat - thor army, but thats not what is meant by mech. i stopped using cloakshees long ago. maybe i forgot a few references in the guide about this.. I would say more than a few Disagree... any heavily factory based composition is mech. Maybe you should call mass tanks as BW style mech, but even that sounds weird. SC2's a different game, units have changed and so do the strategies. Also, just because tanks are much more positional than other mech units doesn't mean those other mech units still aren't more positional than bio. Their slow nature and transformation abilities make it more important to position them before the battle, unlike bio where you are faster and can reposition easier. If you are talking about mass tanks... why not just call it mass tanks? Or tank heavy mech. Otherwise if I talk about thor hellion tank. with less than half of my army being mech, I will have to call it thor hellion tank banshee all the time...? You can build so many hellions, if I have 3 reactor factories and 3 TL factories on 3 base like Liquid Sea, and I'm saving up more lots of hellions to suicide them at 2 of his bases (which have lots of canons), while also saving some for defense, and my hellion supply is larger than half my army... suddenly it's not mass tank, and it's not mech? I don't think so
You know that by "mech" people are not referring to the unit description or the building it comes from, but about the play style. Marine Tank is much more mech like then Thor+Hellbat. Hell, Thor/ Hellbat plays much more like bio then mech. Though i agree we should probably use terms like: Tank based mech, to be more clear.
And lets not kid ourselfs with "positioning" here, a Thor Hellbat composition is a "1a" comp, without the positioning aspects of Tank based comps and without the micro abilities of bio. Thors in general are ugly units when massed.
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See, Tank/Hellion/Thor/Ghost/Raven actually works really well right now, if you can get to late game and you play perfectly it's really hard to lose to anything but mass tempests. I don't even think it's an issue not being viable at anywhere under high masters. The issue comes to when it gets to grandmasters/pro level where the protoss players are much, much smarter. The only way I'm seeing it working for pros is if they buff the tank and make the mine actually usable.
I'm so badly waiting for Flash to play HoTS Mech TvP and see what he can do with it. If anyone will make it work it's him.
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On December 10 2012 19:54 Qikz wrote:
See, Tank/Hellion/Thor/Ghost/Raven actually works really well right now, if you can get to late game and you play perfectly it's really hard to lose to anything but mass tempests. I don't even think it's an issue not being viable at anywhere under high masters. The issue comes to when it gets to grandmasters/pro level where the protoss players are much, much smarter. The only way I'm seeing it working for pros is if they buff the tank and make the mine actually usable.
I'm so badly waiting for Flash to play HoTS Mech TvP and see what he can do with it. If anyone will make it work it's him.
Actually Flash himself said he loves marines and marauders and that he thinks it fits his style very well.. He is master of mech TvP in BW, but isn't it actually because it is the best strategy to pick when what you really care about is winning? So as long as bio remains superior to mech TvP, I guess he will stick to bio. I'd love to be proven otherwise..
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the new mech changes are however going in the right direction. Blizzard is obviously very intent on giving mech players the options they need. You cant expect more drastic changes than last patch. Especially the upgrades are huge.
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i suspect mech is playable now but not really the traditional mech based heavily on tanks.
Banshee, thor, hellbat is quite decent now I think but playing tank heavy is only any good if protoss is stalker heavy which they usually will not be.
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The new seeker can be potential anti immortal anti big targets vs toss. the only problem is it STILL costs 125 energy even with splash gone...
So why dont we change oracles pulsar beam to a single target spell that cost 125 energy with 10 casting range and dealing 300 flat damage to the target with 3 seconds charge? I think all players will be happy, maybe only the terrans now will whine about "OMG! Oracles make mech not viable because they kills thors SO FAST SO FAR AWAY! NERF IT!"
I'd think that the cost of the raven is more of an issue.
Ghosts are actually cheaper in gas and can counter multiple immortals plus archons.
Strange thing is ghost is a unit available since WOL yet terrans still whine about immortals since WOL to now HOTS
Sometimes we really need to think is this the problem of the players skills and playstyles or the problem of the races and units
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hardened shield is not the problem of the immortal, its the dmg output they do to mech which destroys tank lines, ghost there or not, immortals are freaking cost efficent vs x amount of tanks but the other way around its not working that way, u ll mostly trade inefficent as mech, the only times i see terran trade out fights evenly with protoss is when protoss is dumb enough to run into a fortified position
first game is on daybreak, only efficient fight i had was when 200 vs 200 he ran into my position, anything else went badly my way and only won cuz of more expansions / minerals
http://drop.sc/283321
Second game i just play without ghost just to try, ground doesnt work well without ghost, immortals just destroy any ground in seconds, mass bcs work surprisingly well even thou i didnt really micro etc, so the upgrade combination with the last patch helped ~_~
http://drop.sc/283322
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Well I've been trying to play mech (no vikings, just pure factory units) with the new patch but so far it's horrendous. I've had so many games where I'm up like 5 bases against 3 and I have a considerably larger army (20-50 supply bigger) and I still lose fights to immortal/zealot/VR. I don't think mech is ever going to work against Protoss until something is done about Immortals. They are just such a retarded abusive unit. And to the people saying "get ghosts" to EMP them, you're always starved on gas when you go mech. It would only be possible in the absolute late late game when you're maxed already and have gas to spare.
Voidrays are also a big issue, the new Thor anti-air just doesn't cut it. Why am I paying 300 minerals and 200 gas for a unit that does about as much anti-air damage as a Goliath, which costs 100/50 in BW?
It's just hilarious how much easier and safer it is to play bio right now. With bio if I have supply advatange and up on bases I know the only way I would lose is if I walk all my units into storms and don't have vikings for colossus.
Anybody got any ideas?
If all terrans are just as no-brainer like you, then Blizzard really had wasted their effort and energy trying to spoon feed you guys. Do you really get the idea why mech and air upgrades are buy 1 free 1 now? Its not even as expensive as protoss shield upgrade as it share for 2 tech branch. Its freaking cheap and literally its free 6 upgrades for terrans, saving up 900 minerals 900 gas and tons of in game minutes for terrans, making them get to 3-3 way faster than any other races.
And what we got here is a no-brainer terrans going mech without any air units, even Blizzard go as far as to over buff medivac and raven, making hellbats as tough as immortals with medivac heal while protoss immortals, archons, void rays, tempest, carriers and colossi now as tough as a mule after being bombarded by the new seeker missile with 10 CASTING RANGE, no wait, immortals and void rays just got 1 shot directly without any way to fight back or run away.
Well if terrans do not want any air units inside their suppose "mech play", or even go as far to deny hellions, hellbats and thors as part of the mech play composition, I think Blizzard should just give up on making terran mech viable and as well just revert back the mech+air buy 1 free 1 upgrades to the old way.
Seriously all i feel about terrans that whinning ever more after patch 8 about immortal, colossus and tempest are just trolls trying to use protoss, particularly immortal, as an excuse to ask for more buff for terran.
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hardened shield is not the problem of the immortal, its the dmg output they do to mech which destroys tank lines, ghost there or not, immortals are freaking cost efficent vs x amount of tanks but the other way around its not working that way, u ll mostly trade inefficent as mech, the only times i see terran trade out fights evenly with protoss is when protoss is dumb enough to run into a fortified position first game is on daybreak, only efficient fight i had was when 200 vs 200 he ran into my position, anything else went badly my way and only won cuz of more expansions / minerals http://drop.sc/283321Second game i just play without ghost just to try, ground doesnt work well without ghost, immortals just destroy any ground in seconds, mass bcs work surprisingly well even thou i didnt really micro etc, so the upgrade combination with the last patch helped ~_~ http://drop.sc/283322
In the first game you have to ask yourself why protoss unable to have more expansions/minerals than you as a terran?
Do not simply throw out excuses like "I won simply because I have more expansions/resources than my opponent, so even I won I feel immortals is OP because terran mech does not trade efficiently with immortals". To win a strategic game is not just all about "I want to roll over my opponent with my tanks without suffering much casualties", sometimes out perform your opponent in macro or prevent your opponent to expand until they dry out of resources is still a strategy to win a game.
If you want to compare efficiency, then how would you explain a bio ball vs gateway units without AOE? Gateway units are by no mean efficient when trading against bio ball without AOE support. the supposedly OP "warp in"are by no mean free and it cost toss tons of resources to constantly warp in units, and then just use them as cannon fodder to soak up bio ball super high DPS, and now even super tough and beefy, thanks to new medivac and hellbat.
Your second try is even more retarded, going mech without ghost or air units is just like toss go pure gateway units without AOE damage support against bio ball.
Try the new raven Blizzard gave terran in this patch, you will sure discover immortal are now no more than just a paper tiger.
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On December 10 2012 23:21 {ToT}ColmA wrote:hardened shield is not the problem of the immortal, its the dmg output they do to mech which destroys tank lines, ghost there or not, immortals are freaking cost efficent vs x amount of tanks but the other way around its not working that way, u ll mostly trade inefficent as mech, the only times i see terran trade out fights evenly with protoss is when protoss is dumb enough to run into a fortified position first game is on daybreak, only efficient fight i had was when 200 vs 200 he ran into my position, anything else went badly my way and only won cuz of more expansions / minerals http://drop.sc/283321Second game i just play without ghost just to try, ground doesnt work well without ghost, immortals just destroy any ground in seconds, mass bcs work surprisingly well even thou i didnt really micro etc, so the upgrade combination with the last patch helped ~_~ http://drop.sc/283322
no it's the combination of both hardened shield and it's damage output that makes them so goddamn good against tank based mech. Adding in ghosts to counter immortals can work but is just really hard, first of all tanks outrange emp so even if you do manage to emp all immortals the hardened shield will likely still have absorbed the first shots and your emp was only a 90 damage aoe spell. The damage output makes them really strong too but without the hardened shield they could never close in on a tank line so easily as they can now.
If you try mech now I'd really suggest to incorporate good amounts of banshees. Banshees are great against toss since they trade quite well with stalkers and phoenixes are easily countered by thors. Banshees can thus force big amounts of stalkers which really make your tanks shine. Banshees also provide great mobility and good (counter) harassment potential. Of course adding in a raven or two if gas permits is pretty good now and a great way to deal with immortals, archons and dt's too.
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On the energy bar thing: Mech should have some energy bars to keep HT's a somewhat viable choice. Storms don't quite effect mech like it does bio.
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EPT
