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On December 10 2012 14:39 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 14:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On December 10 2012 12:43 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Okay so here is how Widow Mines work now, it's a bit of a nerf. You CAN focus fire with them, BUT, you cannot turn them off from targeting. You might want to test this to understand exactly how it works, but I will try to explain. Once a unit gets in range of the Mine, it starts its couple second "attack charge", you can reset this "attack charge" by right-clicking on a new unit, and you can keep doing this for as long as you like, until you decide upon a unit you which to target. As far as I can see there are 3 in-game implications of this.
1) You cannot stop a player from sending forward a single unit (like a hallucination) to bait your Widow Mine attack. With nothing to reset the "attack charge" on you have no control.
2) During an engagement where you want to focus fire specific units (like an Immortal), you will have to be constantly switching targets on Widow Mines until the key units are in range, at which point you can right click it and you're set. Unless you're a pro-gamer (and even then I'm not sure) you probably won't be able to do any micro while you are constantly switching targets with your Widow Mines.
3) In the same situation as the last comment, if you have multiple Widow Mines and are trying to save them for Immortals, all the ones you selected will fire upon the Immortal - even if it's Overkill. So let's say you have 10 Widow Mines, and they come across with 10 Chargelots and 5 Immortals, if you use this tactic to save your Widow Mines for the Immortals, all 10 of your Widow Mines will detonate on 1 Immortal, which is unarguably not worth it at all.
Kind of really disappointing really. Using them to target Immortals was, IMO, their greatest strength in TvP. Thanks for the explanation. Sounds like it is a good way to show off good micro though. If you have multiple widow mines and save them for the immortals, select them all, keep switching targets, target all on one immortal, then box click the rest (or deselect them from the UI below) click a new immortal, etc. The charge up isn't that short, so it can be done. Yeah this is a good point, but only an option in some situations. I suggest you try it out. The tactic you are talking about doesn't work all that well unless your Widow Mines are clumped up AND the Immortals are as well (or whatever you want to be targeting). If you target a unit that is out of range of any of the Mines then those ones will ignore that command and it won't reset their "attack charge". Perhaps I am underestimating what a pro player could do, but I have a hard time imagining them doing this "attack charge reset" micro on multiple groups of Widow Mines at once.
Yep, true, it would be situational, and would take a while for pros to focus on positioning them to be able to get situations like that. I'm guessing it'll happen occasionally at least, hopefully. I think there is some awesome potential though if they position things well. (Like putting lots of widow mines at a specific attack angle to force him to attack from another angle, ideally walking around the map a bit, or else move his army/immortals over those mines).
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On December 10 2012 05:56 Hetz wrote:
TvP is meant to be played with bio.
User was warned for this post
Silence bio scum!
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Well, I don't know. I don't want to offend anyone, but to me it seems like all those guys saying "omg, mech is not possible, toss just takes map, go lolz carrier/tempest, ground gets wrecked by zzzz zealot/immortal" are people who randomly tried mech in HOTS after playing bio for 2 years in WOL and of course they get their ass kicked hard.
I mean, what the fuck?
You have to completly abandon your playstyle and adapt if you want to play mech properly.. With bio you don't stay in storms. Do you? You lose then. You have vikings against collosus. Don't you? You lose then..
With mech there are similar things you absolutely NEED to keep in mind. You don't siege up the moment zealots are charging at you. You don't let warp prism go into your mineral line.. You don't just mass tanks blindly (thinking I play mech wow, got buffed, must be good) and expect to beat immortals and then you proceed to say you can't effort ghost while in reality, instead of building 2-3 more tanks, ghost academy + 1-2 ghosts would make a world of difference.
If you just stay on 3 bases and push out with 2-2 hellbat/tank/thor + few vikings around 15 minutes there is absolutely no way you get "destroyed" by anything standard Protoss has at this point. Let's assume Protoss is not dumb, so he doesn't just play "standard". Well, at least it's even now.. But don't tell me mech get's obliterated with the new hellbat, thor without energy and a chance to fight Void/Tempest/Carrier, shared upgrades, widow mine (1 sec burrow is insane) + several nerfing to Protoss (mainly Tempest not dealing +dmg to massive ground)..
Even before all those buffs and nerfs Morrow was able to beat master+ Protosses with mech..
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On December 10 2012 16:03 Everlong wrote:
Well, I don't know. I don't want to offend anyone, but to me it seems like all those guys saying "omg, mech is not possible, toss just takes map, go lolz carrier/tempest, ground gets wrecked by zzzz zealot/immortal" are people who randomly tried mech in HOTS after playing bio for 2 years in WOL and of course they get their ass kicked hard.
I mean, what the fuck?
You have to completly abandon your playstyle and adapt if you want to play mech properly.. With bio you don't stay in storms. Do you? You lose then. You have vikings against collosus. Don't you? You lose then..
With mech there are similar things you absolutely NEED to keep in mind. You don't siege up the moment zealots are charging at you. You don't let warp prism go into your mineral line.. You don't just mass tanks blindly (thinking I play mech wow, got buffed, must be good) and expect to beat immortals and then you proceed to say you can't effort ghost while in reality, instead of building 2-3 more tanks, ghost academy + 1-2 ghosts would make a world of difference.
If you just stay on 3 bases and push out with 2-2 hellbat/tank/thor + few vikings around 15 minutes there is absolutely no way you get "destroyed" by anything standard Protoss has at this point. Let's assume Protoss is not dumb, so he doesn't just play "standard". Well, at least it's even now.. But don't tell me mech get's obliterated with the new hellbat, thor without energy and a chance to fight Void/Tempest/Carrier, shared upgrades, widow mine (1 sec burrow is insane) + several nerfing to Protoss (mainly Tempest not dealing +dmg to massive ground)..
Even before all those buffs and nerfs Morrow was able to beat master+ Protosses with mech..
well,this is what i keep saying (in the spirit) but people seems to ignore that kind of posts...
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 10 2012 16:14 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 16:03 Everlong wrote:
Well, I don't know. I don't want to offend anyone, but to me it seems like all those guys saying "omg, mech is not possible, toss just takes map, go lolz carrier/tempest, ground gets wrecked by zzzz zealot/immortal" are people who randomly tried mech in HOTS after playing bio for 2 years in WOL and of course they get their ass kicked hard.
I mean, what the fuck?
You have to completly abandon your playstyle and adapt if you want to play mech properly.. With bio you don't stay in storms. Do you? You lose then. You have vikings against collosus. Don't you? You lose then..
With mech there are similar things you absolutely NEED to keep in mind. You don't siege up the moment zealots are charging at you. You don't let warp prism go into your mineral line.. You don't just mass tanks blindly (thinking I play mech wow, got buffed, must be good) and expect to beat immortals and then you proceed to say you can't effort ghost while in reality, instead of building 2-3 more tanks, ghost academy + 1-2 ghosts would make a world of difference.
If you just stay on 3 bases and push out with 2-2 hellbat/tank/thor + few vikings around 15 minutes there is absolutely no way you get "destroyed" by anything standard Protoss has at this point. Let's assume Protoss is not dumb, so he doesn't just play "standard". Well, at least it's even now.. But don't tell me mech get's obliterated with the new hellbat, thor without energy and a chance to fight Void/Tempest/Carrier, shared upgrades, widow mine (1 sec burrow is insane) + several nerfing to Protoss (mainly Tempest not dealing +dmg to massive ground)..
Even before all those buffs and nerfs Morrow was able to beat master+ Protosses with mech..
well,this is what i keep saying (in the spirit) but people seems to ignore that kind of posts...
Are you still using your most recent WoL Mech vs P style?
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On December 10 2012 16:03 Everlong wrote:
Well, I don't know. I don't want to offend anyone
Sorry but then what is the idea behind your post if not to offend people? And just for your info, I pretty much exclusively mech against toss in WoL. But the only thing in your post are some freaking obvious things that everyone is well aware of, even if they didnt mech against toss.
We shouldnt let a warp prism drop directly in our mineral line? If only I knew that before. Next you tell me I also shouldnt let an oracle wipe it out either. And I actually should siege up before my siege tanks get destroyed by zealots? If only I knew that before...
Even for people who didnt mech before against toss, they probably all meched, or at least bio meched, against zerg. Guess what, also against zerg you want to siege up before your siege tanks are destroyed.
And still hoping to be proven wrong, but I really havent found a role for widow mines against toss. Sure they got some gimmicky uses, like playing burrowed ling, but there it usually ends for being really useful. Their main army just kills them, since it doesnt matter if they are burrowed or not, the burrow time doesnt matter that much. Sure I can make a whole lot of them and when attacking try to run them directly into the toss army with 1 sec burrow time, but even if they would survive that long enough, you are mainly praying he doesnt cast forcefields. Not to mention he can always retreat a bit and be comfortably outside siege tank range.
And drops might be irritating for him, but I dont see them being better than BFH drops.
But with your very insightful advice, maybe you also got tips how to deal with large number of blink stalkers as mech. (And no, widow mines dont cut it).
Even before all those buffs and nerfs Morrow was able to beat master+ Protosses with mech..
Morrow was mainly beating people below his skill level and in the end gave up meching against toss as unviable...
well,this is what i keep saying (in the spirit) but people seems to ignore that kind of posts...
Well it could be because there isnt any info in the post besides: omg you are all doing it wrong!!!!!
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As long as the Tanks are this bad and the immortal hardcounter almost everything there is no way to beat a P that knows how to deal with mech. And without cloak banshee or hellion openings, which both are way weaker with the MSC there is no way to deny scouting or pressure in the early game.
And the change of armory? I thought it could be helpful but then i found a Protoss that can focus fire with stalkers...
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well,this is what i keep saying (in the spirit) but people seems to ignore that kind of posts...
Well it could be because there isnt any info in the post besides: omg you are all doing it wrong!!!!![/QUOTE]
i made big posts in this thread and the other one..
and yes, i used my Wol style in hots
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On December 10 2012 16:20 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 16:03 Everlong wrote:
Well, I don't know. I don't want to offend anyone Sorry but then what is the idea behind your post if not to offend people? And just for your info, I pretty much exclusively mech against toss in WoL. But the only thing in your post are some freaking obvious things that everyone is well aware of, even if they didnt mech against toss. We shouldnt let a warp prism drop directly in our mineral line? If only I knew that before. Next you tell me I also shouldnt let an oracle wipe it out either. And I actually should siege up before my siege tanks get destroyed by zealots? If only I knew that before... Even for people who didnt mech before against toss, they probably all meched, or at least bio meched, against zerg. Guess what, also against zerg you want to siege up before your siege tanks are destroyed. And still hoping to be proven wrong, but I really havent found a role for widow mines against toss. Sure they got some gimmicky uses, like playing burrowed ling, but there it usually ends for being really useful. Their main army just kills them, since it doesnt matter if they are burrowed or not, the burrow time doesnt matter that much. Sure I can make a whole lot of them and when attacking try to run them directly into the toss army with 1 sec burrow time, but even if they would survive that long enough, you are mainly praying he doesnt cast forcefields. Not to mention he can always retreat a bit and be comfortably outside siege tank range. And drops might be irritating for him, but I dont see them being better than BFH drops. But with your very insightful advice, maybe you also got tips how to deal with large number of blink stalkers as mech. (And no, widow mines dont cut it). Show nested quote +Even before all those buffs and nerfs Morrow was able to beat master+ Protosses with mech.. Morrow was mainly beating people below his skill level and in the end gave up meching against toss as unviable... Show nested quote +well,this is what i keep saying (in the spirit) but people seems to ignore that kind of posts... Well it could be because there isnt any info in the post besides: omg you are all doing it wrong!!!!!
I know my post was a bit aggresive. Sorry for that. But I just can't stand how Blizzard is trying to help mech so much, yet so few people actually really try to make it work. With Bio, people got smashed so many times until they figured out how to behave in nearly every scenario in the game and ultimately they made TvP very balanced matchup, even late-game, where Protoss is supposed to have advantage.
My post was not aimed at you. Since you play mech in WoL i expect you to expect it is actually possible to beat Protoss with mech. Otherwise, why would you play it?
I agree, blink allin is problem. I think something needs to be done to MSC. It disables widow mines, which are supposed to make mech openers safe in TvP.
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I think Thor, Hellbat, Viking is a lot better then before. I do not consider this mech style though, so i'm still waiting for some sort of Tank buff.
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On December 10 2012 16:55 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +well,this is what i keep saying (in the spirit) but people seems to ignore that kind of posts... Well it could be because there isnt any info in the post besides: omg you are all doing it wrong!!!!!
i made big posts in this thread and the other one..
and yes, i used my Wol style in hots[/QUOTE]
I checked out your WoL style topic, which is quite similar to mine, as in generally you rely on cloakshees for map control, harrasment and all-in defense. If you use the same in HotS you are simply flipping a coin, I dont consider that a good way to win. If he goes air, you are way behind since your cloakshee immediatly dies and you have no anti air. Worse, if he goes any kind of all-in like 4-gate or similar, you die. In WoL you sacrifised a bunch of SCVs on repair duty, and in the end he got the idea that having a cloakshee kill his army wasnt a good idea. In HotS he clicks on his mothershipcore, and presses the detection button.
Yes it can still work fine, if he goes a relative WoL-like opening. But that is just flipping a coin.
My post was not aimed at you. Since you play mech in WoL i expect you to expect it is actually possible to beat Protoss with mech. Otherwise, why would you play it?
My reaction was probably also a bit aggressive 
Anyway why I play mech, because my micro is horrible so I lose also with bio  . But really I want it to work, and I really dont want to say it is impossible with the little time I now have HotS. But the cloakshee opening is an integral part of most WoL mech strategies, and I dont consider it for now to be viable in HotS with the new abilities toss has. So we need to find an alternative way to give you some kind of map control early on, defense against agressive builds, and isnt horrible against toss air openings. Significant amounts of widow mines + vikings is something I am for example planning to try out, simply to lock him inside his base for as long as possible, and vikings are quite decent scouts.
I don't think mech later in the game has really been boosted against toss, sure it is stronger, obviously no discussion there, but so is protoss. But that is for me at least not really the issue, I mainly got problems with transitioning to that mech.
That said I do think the default strategy for pro's will stay to be bio, especially with boosted medivacs (they probably be nerfed a bit, but to WoL levels), why wouldnt you? I dont think bio is in any way nerfed against toss, so only the medivac boost which makes drop play alot better. And the more they play bio, the more regular people play bio, which means mech becomes more effective
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People don't understand that mass tank is not "mech", they start to mass tanks and they think that everything is fine with that.. Have you ever tried to play a game by mass colossi? (lol)
Immortals are a problem? hmmm I don't think they are anymore, you've ghosts and RAVENS... the new seeker is really good with mech against toss and one shot immortals but if you want to stay here and whine without any sense it's ok. People who are playing the beta and aren't so whiny are telling me that mech vs protoss is pretty good and there are not build orders yet..
For the first time terran are ultra-buffed... and people still complains, please, get real.
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On December 10 2012 17:52 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 16:55 Lyyna wrote:well,this is what i keep saying (in the spirit) but people seems to ignore that kind of posts... Well it could be because there isnt any info in the post besides: omg you are all doing it wrong!!!!! i made big posts in this thread and the other one.. and yes, i used my Wol style in hots
I checked out your WoL style topic, which is quite similar to mine, as in generally you rely on cloakshees for map control, harrasment and all-in defense. If you use the same in HotS you are simply flipping a coin, I dont consider that a good way to win. If he goes air, you are way behind since your cloakshee immediatly dies and you have no anti air. Worse, if he goes any kind of all-in like 4-gate or similar, you die. In WoL you sacrifised a bunch of SCVs on repair duty, and in the end he got the idea that having a cloakshee kill his army wasnt a good idea. In HotS he clicks on his mothershipcore, and presses the detection button.
Yes it can still work fine, if he goes a relative WoL-like opening. But that is just flipping a coin. [/QUOTE]
i stopped using cloakshees long ago. maybe i forgot a few references in the guide about this..
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The new seeker can be potential anti immortal anti big targets vs toss. the only problem is it STILL costs 125 energy even with splash gone...
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On December 10 2012 17:55 AngryPenguin wrote:
People don't understand that mass tank is not "mech", they start to mass tanks and they think that everything is fine with that.. Have you ever tried to play a game by mass colossi? (lol)
Mech IS mass tanks. Sure augmented by other units, but mech is the positional play inherent to tanks. Sure you can make a hellbat - thor army, but thats not what is meant by mech.
i stopped using cloakshees long ago. maybe i forgot a few references in the guide about this..
I would say more than a few
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Damned, looks like itll need a big update then..
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On December 10 2012 18:01 DaveVAH wrote:
The new seeker can be potential anti immortal anti big targets vs toss. the only problem is it STILL costs 125 energy even with splash gone...
I'd think that the cost of the raven is more of an issue.
Ghosts are actually cheaper in gas and can counter multiple immortals plus archons.
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I agree that openings and general transition into mech play is very problematic. Mainly because Protoss is very abusive early in the game and there are so many cheesy-gimmicky strategies you can face it's not even funny. You avoid those strategies playing bio and you don't even want to. MSC is problematic. It shuts down widow mines. Also 100/100 Dark shrine means you need ebay + turret or Raven, otherwise you can just lose the game right there. The list goes on..
But, once you get in control of the game, it's pretty damn good.
I think once we find solid opening (which was always problem), mech is certainly an option now (which wasn't).
I think the biggest problem is MSC beign able to shut down mines -> blink allin..
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United Kingdom2950 Posts
Hello! Not sure how to post replays but I just played a 40 minute TvP using mech. It was the first time I really got a late game mech game going and I felt like it was going well for me and we had a split map, but it got to point where his Tempests were so strong and wrecked my viking/thor AA so quickly. I'm not sure exactly how I could have done better in terms of my composition. I'm only gold on HOTS so I could have done a bunch of things better but I felt like my composition was pretty decent going into the multiple fights.
I really like the game though, even though I lost I still liked how it panned out but I hope we get more mech testers in the future.
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Generally speaking:
Tanks are just too weak against toss units. Sieged up tanks just do not trade well with toss units except maybe sentries and templars. That is a simple fact. It is true in WoL and in HotS. Go to the unit tester and A-move a chargelot, immortal archon army into sieged up tanks. It's not even a close fight. Now imagine the toss would do some splitting, or drops! If you want to make positional tank based TvP possible sieged up siegetanks need to trade well with normal toss ground units.
As others already have said: The best solution i can think of is to add a damage upgrade to tanks against shields at either the armory or the fusion core. That way you can directly tune tanks without affecting the other match-ups or 111s. In the long run you would still have to get some ghosts to deal with immortals.
Tanks trade mobility for firepower, but right now the firepower is just not there.
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EPT
