Hey so I haven't really seen this being used yet, and it's funny because in theory it seems like an absolutely fantastic addition.
I'm wondering, could you chain charges to do incrementally more damage?
IE here's my vangaurd of ultras approaching an MMM ball:
UUUU UUU UUU U
MMMM MMMM MMMM MMMM
If I click the ultra charge ability, the closest one is going to charge in first, and if I click 3 more charges to hit where the popped up marines will be landing, presumably they'll hit both the marines that were popped up by the first ulta, and the marines that were already there, while now having that first Ultra behind the next three:
First charge
UUUU UUU UUU U
MMUM MM M MMMM MMMM
Second charge:
UUUU UUU
MU U UM M U M M M MMMM
maybe. I haven't played heart of the swarm yet but that's how it plays out in my head. Wouldn't be the hardest thing to pull off either as that's just how smartcasting works, if you have all your guys and you tell them to fungle, emp, or storm something once the one closest to the target will perform that action.
- with detection enemy can atack Ultralisks during burrow charge process - when Ultralisk ending their charge process and unburrowing, he will deal standart damage to all units around - burrow charge process isn't that fast like on trailers. Now it's on standart Ultra speed, but creep speeds up this process too - Ultralisk still have Frenzy effect
On September 30 2012 01:30 Xor. wrote: They burrow pretty slowly, but its still cool ^-^
They still have frenzy and that burrow charge is just a stealth-move with atack at the end of burrow-charge. And it helps a bit, when there are a lot of your units on ground, that not allowed to ultras to reach enemy in WoL
if the ultra charges and hits the enemy: does that first hit do damage? or is it just throwing some units around and the damage starts with the normal attacks?
and is ultra play in zvp viable now or still crap (vs everything else than 3 base colossi all in)? hope they make charge viable zvp so its no longer stupid BL infestor every game.
On September 30 2012 18:46 Decendos wrote: if the ultra charges and hits the enemy: does that first hit do damage? or is it just throwing some units around and the damage starts with the normal attacks?
and is ultra play in zvp viable now or still crap (vs everything else than 3 base colossi all in)? hope they make charge viable zvp so its no longer stupid BL infestor every game.
As far as I know, when Ultras throw units around, that throw does their normal damage. I think that they will be viable vs. Protoss, Burrow Charge maybe doesn't help that much vs. them, but Vipers certainly do and, and Swarm Hosts to certain degree(since you can now pressure Protoss while teching to Ultralisks and Vipers).
On September 30 2012 19:07 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Strangely haven't seen any pro use it on stream.
T_T
Looked pretty cool when Browder demoed it.
There was CatZ vs. Thorzain game casted by TotalBiscuit. Both players were fooling around, but the game was pretty entertaining with all new units and abilities being used(sort of). CatZ sent first wave of Ultralisks that got demolished by few Thors and Siege Tanks, they killed few Hellions, but second Wave used Burrow Charge and completely destroyed mech. It wasn't strong army, it was something like 5-6 Tanks and 2-3 Thors vs. 5-6 Ultraliks, but still, Burrow Charge is definitely worth it, just because of the pathing.
On September 30 2012 18:46 Decendos wrote: if the ultra charges and hits the enemy: does that first hit do damage? or is it just throwing some units around and the damage starts with the normal attacks?
and is ultra play in zvp viable now or still crap (vs everything else than 3 base colossi all in)? hope they make charge viable zvp so its no longer stupid BL infestor every game.
As far as I know, when Ultras throw units around, that throw does their normal damage. I think that they will be viable vs. Protoss, Burrow Charge maybe doesn't help that much vs. them, but Vipers certainly do and, and Swarm Hosts to certain degree(since you can now pressure Protoss while teching to Ultralisks and Vipers).
On September 30 2012 19:07 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Strangely haven't seen any pro use it on stream.
T_T
Looked pretty cool when Browder demoed it.
There was CatZ vs. Thorzain game casted by TotalBiscuit. Both players were fooling around, but the game was pretty entertaining with all new units and abilities being used(sort of). CatZ sent first wave of Ultralisks that got demolished by few Thors and Siege Tanks, they killed few Hellions, but second Wave used Burrow Charge and completely destroyed mech. It wasn't strong army, it was something like 5-6 Tanks and 2-3 Thors vs. 5-6 Ultraliks, but still, Burrow Charge is definitely worth it, just because of the pathing.
To be honest, I feel like the charge would be overpowered against T and Z if it was as fast as in the alpha. I'm not sure, but I feel like to properly implement charge, you need to rebalance the ultralisk around it. Right now it's biggest weakness - getting surface area asap - would get lost by a strong charge. On the other hand, a slow charge like right now, doesn't achieve a lot. Also I feel like, whenever you want to use ultralisks, waiting for plating to finish is already a terrible long wait. Waiting for plating+charge... not useful the way ultralisks are being used right now.
On September 30 2012 19:53 Big J wrote: Also I feel like, whenever you want to use ultralisks, waiting for plating to finish is already a terrible long wait. Waiting for plating+charge... not useful the way ultralisks are being used right now.
It should work like the Infestor's burrowed movement, IMO. Remove the research, have it require Burrow.
burrow charge sucked because it was so slow and you couldn't target it beneath tanks, so if your opponent balls up with his mech, your ultra's charge to the side of the ball and get demolished.
I watched one game on huskystarcrafts channel, where someone tried to burrow charge under a heap of seiged tanks, but the ultras bugged out and apparently can't burrow charge underneath sieged tanks. Might be ok if there few tanks or their not bunched tightly, but does not appear that you can burrow charge into the middle of a bunch of sieged tanks. Can't remember the game sorry, but was very early in the beta
I think people need to look at what the actual AOE size is for when the ultra comes out of burrowed charge. It looked a lot bigger to me then a normal ultra attack. I saw like 4 ultra's charge into a mineral line, and just the charge killed all the workers in the mineral line.
On October 01 2012 19:05 Breight wrote: I watched one game on huskystarcrafts channel, where someone tried to burrow charge under a heap of seiged tanks, but the ultras bugged out and apparently can't burrow charge underneath sieged tanks. Might be ok if there few tanks or their not bunched tightly, but does not appear that you can burrow charge into the middle of a bunch of sieged tanks. Can't remember the game sorry, but was very early in the beta
Does anyone know if this is intended or a bug? If it's intended that'd kinda suck :/ but then again, if they fix it, are burrow charge ultras unstoppable in ZvT?
The only reason i could see for using this is to use burrowed ultras defensively, and almost guarantee a hit with the ultras (rather then the other guy just running around where the ultra was burrowed) or to get under a wall or something.
Everytime i see someone attack (throw away) their ultras into an army and get shredded a cringe a little.
On October 01 2012 19:05 Breight wrote: I watched one game on huskystarcrafts channel, where someone tried to burrow charge under a heap of seiged tanks, but the ultras bugged out and apparently can't burrow charge underneath sieged tanks. Might be ok if there few tanks or their not bunched tightly, but does not appear that you can burrow charge into the middle of a bunch of sieged tanks. Can't remember the game sorry, but was very early in the beta
Does anyone know if this is intended or a bug? If it's intended that'd kinda suck :/ but then again, if they fix it, are burrow charge ultras unstoppable in ZvT?
unstoppable, no, but it does make the sieged tank obsolete, burrow charge to center of formation, do a little damge, friendly spash kills the rest............................= tanks never get used again
On October 01 2012 19:05 Breight wrote: I watched one game on huskystarcrafts channel, where someone tried to burrow charge under a heap of seiged tanks, but the ultras bugged out and apparently can't burrow charge underneath sieged tanks. Might be ok if there few tanks or their not bunched tightly, but does not appear that you can burrow charge into the middle of a bunch of sieged tanks. Can't remember the game sorry, but was very early in the beta
Does anyone know if this is intended or a bug? If it's intended that'd kinda suck :/ but then again, if they fix it, are burrow charge ultras unstoppable in ZvT?
unstoppable, no, but it does make the sieged tank obsolete, burrow charge to center of formation, do a little damge, friendly spash kills the rest............................= tanks never get used again
just spread the tanks. need to do that anyway because of blinding cloud. perhaps one raven will get standard in zvt vs ultras to shoot them while they burrow.
On October 02 2012 01:12 Warpath wrote: The only reason i could see for using this is to use burrowed ultras defensively, and almost guarantee a hit with the ultras (rather then the other guy just running around where the ultra was burrowed) or to get under a wall or something.
Everytime i see someone attack (throw away) their ultras into an army and get shredded a cringe a little.
Well when you have 15 ultras, and they are blocking a choke, burrowed charge becomes incredibly useful. Just charge to the top of the ramp behind the forces with half your utlras, then you can get some real surface area and kill that army. Otherwise (assuming you need to break that choke), your going to use 5 times as many ultras trying to break it. Also I think burrow charge has a much larger AOE then the normal attack (same damage but larger aoe), so I think if you need to for instance clear a base of probes very quickly, burrow charge all your ultra and the probes will die much faster.
Burrow charge is a stupid band-aid solution to an obvious problem. Ultralisks in SC2 are HUGE because Browder thinks huge units are cool (see GDC conference Making SC2 an eSport). However, Ultralisks are also melee units, which means their size actually makes them considerably weaker, due to fewer ultralisks being able to attack a specific target, and due to the additional time wasted pathing around other ultras, and your other units (such as zerglings). Size is extremely important for melee units.
Burrow charge is a ridiculous attempt to fix this problem by giving ultralisks the ability to ignore pathing of other units when charging. However it also creates its own problems. Seriously, Blizzard, just make them smaller. Compounding error with further error is only going to make SC2 more broken than it already is.
Ultralisks should be shrunk down in size by at least half, have their resource and supply costs reduced, and forget this burrow charge nonsense.
Ultralisks are powerful against terran. I dont see any problem currently. Fungle + ultralisks + cracklings makes coffee against any terran army but bioballs.
The new burrow charge is just a small buff obviously, but a cool one. Zerg will be able to destroy terran defensive lines, if the terran doesnt have detection. If he has detection, BL will still be needed.
On October 02 2012 04:04 ledarsi wrote: Burrow charge is a ridiculous attempt to fix this problem by giving ultralisks the ability to ignore pathing of other units when charging. However it also creates its own problems.
Which one? I don't know if it is a good solution, but i don't see the problems it causes.
On October 02 2012 21:31 LOLItsRyann wrote: In ZvZ, if you fungal a burrow charging ultralisk, does it root it burrowed, and unable to unburrow/finish casting burrow charge?
I think it is fairly obvious that burrow charge compounds some of the gameplay problems of SC2. Front-loading splash damage on a cooldown, on a unit like the ultralisk? The ultralisk is fast approaching a complete role reversal from its status in BW as a beefy, reliable melee damage dealer with no frills or gimmicks. Now it isn't even that tough due to damage inflation, and its damage is quite poor. However it can deal burst splash now, and can be mitigated by detection? Seriously?
Charge as a mechanic for Protoss is already boring enough- it needlessly removes micro from the game, and does not increase zealots' strategic mobility like a movement speed upgrade, only their combat mobility. Burrow charge is the same. The only improvement for the burrow charge is that it is practical to manual cast.
On October 03 2012 04:48 ledarsi wrote: I think it is fairly obvious that burrow charge compounds some of the gameplay problems of SC2. Front-loading splash damage on a cooldown, on a unit like the ultralisk? The ultralisk is fast approaching a complete role reversal from its status in BW as a beefy, reliable melee damage dealer with no frills or gimmicks. Now it isn't even that tough due to damage inflation, and its damage is quite poor. However it can deal burst splash now, and can be mitigated by detection? Seriously?
Charge as a mechanic for Protoss is already boring enough- it needlessly removes micro from the game, and does not increase zealots' strategic mobility like a movement speed upgrade, only their combat mobility. Burrow charge is the same. The only improvement for the burrow charge is that it is practical to manual cast.
A little off topic, but something I've been thinking about lately from a design/"coolness" perspective.
Zealot charge should be constant (or maybe like 2 sec CD) and have something like 3 range.
Effectively extending Zealot attack range to 3, but moving the Zealot to the unit attacked.
I'd like if Zerglings had something similar but with smaller range (1).
The big thing about specifically Zealots and Zerglings is they become utterly useless as mid-game splash and large army numbers take over. It doesn't matter how good those units are in combat because only 1/3-1/4 of them can attack at any given time.
Having a shorter distance charge that is up all the time gives them much more effective zoning means and gives them a meaningful "oh my god stay the fuck away from them" feel.
Not saying the idea is balanced, but in my mind, it makes Zealots and Zerglings feel a lot more badass for the "coolness" factor, not necessarily numbers.
On October 03 2012 04:48 ledarsi wrote: Charge as a mechanic for Protoss is already boring enough- it needlessly removes micro from the game, and does not increase zealots' strategic mobility like a movement speed upgrade, only their combat mobility. Burrow charge is the same. The only improvement for the burrow charge is that it is practical to manual cast.
What are you talking about? The only thing that they share is the name "charge", but they are nothing alike. Don't even know why Ultralisk's ability is called Burrow Charge, it should be something like Burrow Assault.
These two abilities are pretty different. Zealot charge ability is there to speed up the Zealot and to get them fast to the enemy lines, Ultras don't have that problem, because they aren't slow units, their speed is pretty solid, their real problem is that they are too big, and that even with they get close to the enemy, can't deal enough damage, because they are getting blocked by Lings/Banelings/other Ultras. As you said, unlike Zealot Charge, Burrow Charge is manual cast, which makes it less boring, Ultras don't get the speed buff while charging, but they are burrowed, so without detection, you won't see them, and enemy probably won't target them because of the lower priority that burrowed units have. Since you target ground with Burrow Charge, you can also escape with Ultras but it is situational because most of the time, enemy will have the detection. Also, because you target ground and because it has 30 seconds cooldown(unlike Zealot charge that has 10), you will have to be careful how you cast it, and not just spam it on top of enemy army, it also knockbacks enemy units and deal small portion of AoE damage. Again, unlike with Zealot charge that is just a gap closer ability, you can do a lot more with Burrow Charge. For example, army that is a bit slower than Ultras is running from you, you can use the Burrow Charge with few Ultras to get in front of them and block their path(if they are going trough the choke), so you are actually creating the "Force fields" from Ultras. Burrow Charge is also an choke breaking ability, same as Blinding Cloud.
None of this things you can do with Zealot charge, you can get closer to the enemy, or chase the enemy to get few extra hits with Zealots, and then they will keep running after them, but that is it, and I agree, the Zealot charge is incredibly boring ability.
EPT
