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On September 22 2012 04:31 Blacklizard wrote:
The MSC could be responsible for big metagame shifts. Maybe super greedy expands won't be able to be so greedy, and that may be fine. If that happens, it could make up for Protoss's poor early game scouting, which is reliant on a ton of inferrances.
Personally I really love the Mothership Core. It gives Protoss everything it needed early game. Right now, the MSC definitely helps in defense. It also gives options for poking/recall. It gives the ability to see and/or hit incoming 10 minute bio drops at one more location. And it gives options for harassment. I think of it as a really slow flying reaper... pretty decent at killing a handful of marines, lings, or workers but without support it goes down fast.
Sure, it is worrying that 4 gates would be stronger against Terran. But honestly, 4 gates were pretty God awful against Terran in the past. 2 repaired bunkers were just about enough? Maybe now it will require 4 bunkers because 2 will go down. Still very defendable if Terran doesn't play super greedy.
A late 4 gate against Zerg seems pretty weak to me. I'd be more worried about the 2 base 8 gate timing + MSC. Except that swarmhosts counter practically any number of gateway units, so it doesn't appear to be a problem there either.
Really, I think the mothership core is doing fine. The lastest buff hasn't been tested a ton, but it's probably close to being fine. I think the good far outweighs the bad. More options early game make for more interesting games. Offensively and defensively.
It occurrs to me that what the MSC purify really helps are 2-base 7-gates since these already line up at the time that a MSC would get across the map. And 7-gate all-ins are already quite strong against both Terran and Zerg. Throw in a 50/50 unit that deals ~40 DPS and can't be hit by roaches or lings, and you've got a pretty scary all-in.
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I really dont like the idea of the purify cannon, feels weird to me to balace out. Seems like the noob-supply-block button for terrans. The MSC can be used effectively in agression, even in PvP its pretty hard to expand if the opponent push with that, and actually its pretty easy to bring to the opponent base, because can defend his ass by itself. In PvZ can only save the first expansion, but nothing about the third expansion, wich is very hard to take in some maps (hey 2 base allin PvZ metagame, nice to meet you) the actual style of the mappool is heavily oriented by this protoss flaw, but when the unit number increase the purify will do nothing interesting, so later the games goes on, less usefull will be to protect expansion with correct positional play. Also, the cannon is always needed for burrow so u cant skip forge at all. In TvP, nothing very cool to defend about early siege push.
I will like a lot much a cloacking field consuming the MSC energy with the AoE of a nexus. Will not add anything at the aggression, if the opponent has detection. Will be usefull for expand at every minute of the game, and will add so much interest in the position of the MSC. Its a 0.5vel unit, the position is soo important.. but when i use it, i simply let it fly around with any creative or projected move..
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All these ideas playing with the purifier ability in pylon power seem like the best solution. If pylon power doesn't go up cliffs, (you can't warp in on HGround with pylon on LGround can you?) then the pylon power solution works well. However if they elect to allow pylon power the full range up high-ground I suggest that the mothership core should have to "attach" to a pylon, similar to the way it used to attach to a nexus in order to use purifier. Then I would suggest a energy per second usage for purifier. This would make offensive play, if done successfully, very hard to execute (and hopefully worthy of the win, but it would be rare). On defence, establishing a pylon at your natural, close to your nexus would be all that is required to hold that particular region with your MoCore.
I also suggest that in order to make it more useful for offence and less useful for defence, make the MoCore move faster when told to move to a nexus, and slower base movement speed. There could be a small blue beam from the top of the nexus to the MoCore that helps it move faster, but also allows an opposing player to scout the fact that a mothership core is moving faster toward a nexus. As in, I've got a limited time to do damage with these blink stalkers as the MoCore is coming.
Could result in weird proxy nexus MoCore rushes (could be hilarious or ridiculous). This ability could have a minimum activation pull range. IE MoCore must move within natural-to-main distance before blue beam activates and helps MoCore movement speed.
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High burst but a slow attack speed is bad for defence. Conversely, high burst but a slow attack speed is good for offence. If it is going to be a tool for protoss designed to help with earlyish defence, it needs to be a fast, low damage weapon for it to be efficient and worth using. At the moment, I saw a game on day9's daily that it's better used to energize sentries to use force fields to stop them coming in than using the energy to kill the enemy units.
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Ok so why not just scrap purify and make it a permanent cannon. Obviously they would need to make it worse but it could just be a permanent cannon. Then it still has the capability to energize sentries to increase the time you can buy w/ FFs. Also in the current state isn't possible to ff behind the units and then kill them w/ MC purify. Protoss would just wait until there opponent really commits and then can trap half their army and slaught with mothership core
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I like it. I would imagine most don't, though, as they still choose to all-in in p vs p every game because they have no understanding of why this was implemented and/or never tried anything but that in WoL. I like that you can roam around with it, but it would be nice if you could still teleport it to w/e nexus you choose. They could make it even slower, if that's possible, if need be. If you go to defend your third with it, there's a good chance you're going to end up defending nothing with it. It should have more utility past the early game. I could use a mothership for recall.
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They could just make the msc be able to transform into a cannon, like say you turn it to a cannon as long as u want but it can't move or use spells till you transform it back, give transform a big cooldown or cost energy.
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On September 22 2012 05:11 kcdc wrote:
It occurrs to me that what the MSC purify really helps are 2-base 7-gates since these already line up at the time that a MSC would get across the map. And 7-gate all-ins are already quite strong against both Terran and Zerg. Throw in a 50/50 unit that deals ~40 DPS and can't be hit by roaches or lings, and you've got a pretty scary all-in.
What I'm really looking forward to is trying it with my old stargate expand build, where I built a VR really fast and expand behind it. But it died with the VR nerfs, as they no longer could handle queens and zergs were more used to building queens to deal with banshee harass.
But i have been watching videos at how much the msc owns queens and I bet that the MSC (and maybe a phoenix or two) could totally keep the queens busy long enough for the VR to focus down a hatch.
Frankly I don't think MSC is needed. Let phoenix transform into cannon in power radius, that'll give protoss the stargate harass opener it needs. (or bring back overcharge but let it hit the ground ^^ so phoenix disable after a bit, but you can rotate your phoenix so if he's putting on pressure, you don't have energy to harass, or vice versa)
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What if, to promote defensiveness with the MSCore, they gave it a buff whenever it's sitting in a pylons energy radius. It could be something like attack speed, just not range, so that way it couldn't be offensively abused.
Or perhaps only allow purify to be used within the power of a pylon.
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On September 21 2012 13:13 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 13:07 kcdc wrote:On September 21 2012 12:50 avilo wrote:
The thing is with longer duration it makes greedy protoss FEs way too good. Which is probably why they're changing it to have a shorter duration. The goal is for it to make expanding more stable in PvP, and to do that, you have to buff Protoss frontal defense enough to make TvP rushes irrelevant. On the flip side, Terran rushes are almost irrelevant in WoL, and the mothership core is slow, so Terran drop and harass openings will still be strong. They don't want something that lets you just expo for free in any match-up. Terran rushes being almost irrelevant would be exactly one of the points -_-
I don't see how zerg doesn't get a free expo in every match up. This point goes for other races in certain match ups as well. So it's just another poor excuse by blizzard imo...
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On September 24 2012 06:57 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 13:13 avilo wrote:On September 21 2012 13:07 kcdc wrote:On September 21 2012 12:50 avilo wrote:
The thing is with longer duration it makes greedy protoss FEs way too good. Which is probably why they're changing it to have a shorter duration. The goal is for it to make expanding more stable in PvP, and to do that, you have to buff Protoss frontal defense enough to make TvP rushes irrelevant. On the flip side, Terran rushes are almost irrelevant in WoL, and the mothership core is slow, so Terran drop and harass openings will still be strong. They don't want something that lets you just expo for free in any match-up. Terran rushes being almost irrelevant would be exactly one of the points -_- I don't see how zerg doesn't get a free expo in every match up. This point goes for other races in certain match ups as well. So it's just another poor excuse by blizzard imo...
Yeah, they've expressly stated that they believe the MsC is too easy to retreat from and wait out. They buffed the range to address this problem, and they presumably buffed the DPS for the same reason. The balance changes on purify were to buff the MsC's defense, not to nerf it. They'll eventually get purify where they want it defensively, and Avilo will be sad that TvP rushes will suck even harder than they do in WoL. But Protoss players will rejoice that PvP won't suck quite as badly.
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On September 24 2012 07:44 kcdc wrote:
Yeah, they've expressly stated that they believe the MsC is too easy to retreat from and wait out. They buffed the range to address this problem, and they presumably buffed the DPS for the same reason. The balance changes on purify were to buff the MsC's defense, not to nerf it. They'll eventually get purify where they want it defensively, and Avilo will be sad that TvP rushes will suck even harder than they do in WoL. But Protoss players will rejoice that PvP won't suck quite as badly.
Are you talking about the current meta or the end goal? Because right now, Purify SUUUCKS at defense, and is good at offense. If you want to defend, you're better off Energizing a Sentry.
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The end goal is to have it good at defense and bad at offense. Assuming they're competent, they'll eventually get it there. Actually, I've even told them how to do it, so they don't even need to be competent--they just need to be literate.
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On September 24 2012 07:54 kcdc wrote:
The end goal is to have it good at defense and bad at offense. Assuming they're competent, they'll eventually get it there. Actually, I've even told them how to do it, so they don't even need to be competent--they just need to be literate.
I wonder how they'd react if this was on the battle net forums; literally this made me laugh pretty hard haha.
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I don't see how it is so strong for offense. If you just float your core to the enemy and he doesn't bother to scout for it or check it, then yeah, it can be quite strong. The question is if you deserve to win using this strategy. It's like demanding cannon rushes are impossible to win with, even when they're unscouted. It's difficult to really test the potency of purify when people don't have builds yet that account for it.
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On September 22 2012 05:11 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 04:31 Blacklizard wrote:
The MSC could be responsible for big metagame shifts. Maybe super greedy expands won't be able to be so greedy, and that may be fine. If that happens, it could make up for Protoss's poor early game scouting, which is reliant on a ton of inferrances.
Personally I really love the Mothership Core. It gives Protoss everything it needed early game. Right now, the MSC definitely helps in defense. It also gives options for poking/recall. It gives the ability to see and/or hit incoming 10 minute bio drops at one more location. And it gives options for harassment. I think of it as a really slow flying reaper... pretty decent at killing a handful of marines, lings, or workers but without support it goes down fast.
Sure, it is worrying that 4 gates would be stronger against Terran. But honestly, 4 gates were pretty God awful against Terran in the past. 2 repaired bunkers were just about enough? Maybe now it will require 4 bunkers because 2 will go down. Still very defendable if Terran doesn't play super greedy.
A late 4 gate against Zerg seems pretty weak to me. I'd be more worried about the 2 base 8 gate timing + MSC. Except that swarmhosts counter practically any number of gateway units, so it doesn't appear to be a problem there either.
Really, I think the mothership core is doing fine. The lastest buff hasn't been tested a ton, but it's probably close to being fine. I think the good far outweighs the bad. More options early game make for more interesting games. Offensively and defensively. It occurrs to me that what the MSC purify really helps are 2-base 7-gates since these already line up at the time that a MSC would get across the map. And 7-gate all-ins are already quite strong against both Terran and Zerg. Throw in a 50/50 unit that deals ~40 DPS and can't be hit by roaches or lings, and you've got a pretty scary all-in.
Vs Z, at first I thought the same thing but now swarmhosts stop all that stuff cold I am pretty sure. Vs T, yeah it's a worry of mine, too. But, those kind of all-ins work best against fast 3rd CC... so maybe that will go out of style. But if T sees it coming, I'm am pretty confident they can defend it. Widow mines with auto-cast turned off in the path of the mothership core would also be a guaranteed kill on the mothership core I would think (and now you can build two or three from a naked factory, no problem, they are nearly guaranteed to pay for theirself). The MSC unit is so slow it absolutely has to fly in a straight line or close to it. On close air maps... yeah probably a problem if the Terran gets even a little greedy. But personally I always think balance against greedy play works out fine as long as you can stop 1 or 2 base all-ins if you are prepared.
EDIT: Vs T, flying in a straight line matters because you can place widow mines where you want them or scout at the right moment with scan or buildings or a reaper where the mothership should be (will need to know per map). And with widow mines being so good at prevent Protoss moving out without observer, the 7 gate super fast all-ins can't work if Terrans start making a few widow mines regarless of their long term tech choices just to force observers.
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On September 21 2012 09:06 kcdc wrote:
Dayvie, Purify isn't working. It's good for attacking and bad at defense, which is the exact opposite of what it should be. I know you're gonna fix it. I've read your blogs, listened to your interviews, we've even played on ladder a few times in WoL. I know you've got this. But the last two balance changes have me a little nervous since they're going precisely backwards.
Your goal is for purify to be strong for defense, but not too strong for offense. When the beta began, you found that purify was weak for for defense because the attacker could just duck out of range and wait for purify to expire. Meanwhile, it was actually pretty decent for offense because bases don't run away.
So you started by buffing the range from 7 to 10, hoping that purify would be better for defense since it would get more shots off while the attacker pulled back. But this is supposed to be a PvP fix, and an extra shot or two on a retreating stalker isn't that big of a deal. Meanwhile, buffing the range made the core WAY better at attacking. At 10 range, it can pick off spines, queens and bunkers while mitigating return fire.
And now you've buffed its burst damage while reducing the defensive availability of the effect (shorter duration, higher energy cost). I'm guessing that this too was to make purify kill more units before they retreat. But defensively, that extra retreat damage comes at the cost of making purify less available and allowing the attacker to return sooner. And it naturally makes the core even stronger for attacks where you can plan for that huge DPS to be there right when you need it.
In Starcraft, the attacker chooses WHEN the battle happens. That means the attacker wants to be powerful in a short burst, while the defender wants to be equally ready at all times to prevent the attacker from forcing the fight at a moment of weakness. At 100 energy for purify, the mothership core has exactly zero defensive utility for the first 89 seconds after it spawns. That's a gigantic window where the defender would absolutely be better off if they hadn't built the core. And after that 25 second purify cast, there's another 153 second window where the core is again completely and utterly useless.
Does 89 seconds of weakness, 25 seconds of face-smashing awesomeness, and 153 seconds of weakness sound like a good defense? No, it sounds awful--the attacker just fights during one of the huge windows of weakness.
But it's AWESOME for an attack where you get to force the fight to happen during those 25 seconds.
What you need to do to make purify good for defense is make it so that it's always available to the defender. In order to discourage offensive use, you need to make it not too powerful in short bursts which an attacker will always manipulate to line up with the engagement. Simply put, reduce or remove the energy requirement, and nerf the attack itself.
And while you're at it, if you really don't want the mothership core to be used offensively, take the range back down to 7 and make purify only enabled when the mothership core is positioned within a power field. That way, its attack can be plenty powerful for defense, but super weak for offense since the attacker would have to slow push pylons into the enemy's base in order to make a mothership core rush deal any lasting damage.
Please fix this. Don't keep buffing its ability to pick off a retreating unit at 10 range--that just makes it insanely strong for an attack. Defense needs to be reliable and available. Offense needs to be powerful in short bursts. This critical concept needs to be reflected in purify's design.
PS: I'd appreciate it if someone with beta access could re-post this in the HOTS beta forums so that it has a snowball's chance in hell to actually be seen.
Well said, you hit all the right notes. I have nothing to add, other than I hope that Blizzard's balance team also understands this and changes the current functionality of Purify.
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wait what? you don't have a beta key? this man needs one asap.
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Black lizard, you're right that the new units might make 2 base all ins weaker. Still, if Z takes a quick third, they narrowly defend a 7 gate all in with hatch tech units in WoL. It's hard to imagine swarm hosts coming out in time and in large enough numbers to defend the timing at 8:30. Maybe Z will open lower income with faster tech to defend P's 2 base timings, but if the MsC is strong enough offensively to force Z into tech openings, that strikes me as a problem on its own. Why not just make it less useful for those attacks?
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make purify only activate on nexus and has like 12 - 15 range, not a lot of DPS but costs maybe 75 energy. It could be like a pseudo tempest early on, it chips any attacking opponents to death but isn't cause for concern although it can tip the battle in toss favor as defenders only, not attackers.
either that or the mothership core could have some kind of existence field, where it only appears on the map inside pylon energy fields. so if toss can't get a pylon in or near your base, then it can't actually attack. Mothership is invisible and cannot issue commands other than move, unless it's in a friendly pylon power field in which case it can use it's abilities. sound fair?
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EPT
