Purify Is Going Backwards - Page 5

On September 22 2012 04:31 Blacklizard wrote:
The MSC could be responsible for big metagame shifts. Maybe super greedy expands won't be able to be so greedy, and that may be fine. If that happens, it could make up for Protoss's poor early game scouting, which is reliant on a ton of inferrances.

Personally I really love the Mothership Core. It gives Protoss everything it needed early game. Right now, the MSC definitely helps in defense. It also gives options for poking/recall. It gives the ability to see and/or hit incoming 10 minute bio drops at one more location. And it gives options for harassment. I think of it as a really slow flying reaper... pretty decent at killing a handful of marines, lings, or workers but without support it goes down fast.

Sure, it is worrying that 4 gates would be stronger against Terran. But honestly, 4 gates were pretty God awful against Terran in the past. 2 repaired bunkers were just about enough? Maybe now it will require 4 bunkers because 2 will go down. Still very defendable if Terran doesn't play super greedy.

A late 4 gate against Zerg seems pretty weak to me. I'd be more worried about the 2 base 8 gate timing + MSC. Except that swarmhosts counter practically any number of gateway units, so it doesn't appear to be a problem there either.

Really, I think the mothership core is doing fine. The lastest buff hasn't been tested a ton, but it's probably close to being fine. I think the good far outweighs the bad. More options early game make for more interesting games. Offensively and defensively.

On September 22 2012 05:11 kcdc wrote:
It occurrs to me that what the MSC purify really helps are 2-base 7-gates since these already line up at the time that a MSC would get across the map. And 7-gate all-ins are already quite strong against both Terran and Zerg. Throw in a 50/50 unit that deals ~40 DPS and can't be hit by roaches or lings, and you've got a pretty scary all-in.

On September 21 2012 13:13 avilo wrote:


They don't want something that lets you just expo for free in any match-up. Terran rushes being almost irrelevant would be exactly one of the points -_-

On September 24 2012 06:57 wcr.4fun wrote:


I don't see how zerg doesn't get a free expo in every match up. This point goes for other races in certain match ups as well. So it's just another poor excuse by blizzard imo...

On September 24 2012 07:44 kcdc wrote:
Yeah, they've expressly stated that they believe the MsC is too easy to retreat from and wait out. They buffed the range to address this problem, and they presumably buffed the DPS for the same reason. The balance changes on purify were to buff the MsC's defense, not to nerf it. They'll eventually get purify where they want it defensively, and Avilo will be sad that TvP rushes will suck even harder than they do in WoL. But Protoss players will rejoice that PvP won't suck quite as badly.

On September 24 2012 07:54 kcdc wrote:
The end goal is to have it good at defense and bad at offense. Assuming they're competent, they'll eventually get it there. Actually, I've even told them how to do it, so they don't even need to be competent--they just need to be literate.

On September 22 2012 05:11 kcdc wrote:


It occurrs to me that what the MSC purify really helps are 2-base 7-gates since these already line up at the time that a MSC would get across the map. And 7-gate all-ins are already quite strong against both Terran and Zerg. Throw in a 50/50 unit that deals ~40 DPS and can't be hit by roaches or lings, and you've got a pretty scary all-in.

On September 21 2012 09:06 kcdc wrote:
Dayvie, Purify isn't working. It's good for attacking and bad at defense, which is the exact opposite of what it should be. I know you're gonna fix it. I've read your blogs, listened to your interviews, we've even played on ladder a few times in WoL. I know you've got this. But the last two balance changes have me a little nervous since they're going precisely backwards.

Your goal is for purify to be strong for defense, but not too strong for offense. When the beta began, you found that purify was weak for for defense because the attacker could just duck out of range and wait for purify to expire. Meanwhile, it was actually pretty decent for offense because bases don't run away.

So you started by buffing the range from 7 to 10, hoping that purify would be better for defense since it would get more shots off while the attacker pulled back. But this is supposed to be a PvP fix, and an extra shot or two on a retreating stalker isn't that big of a deal. Meanwhile, buffing the range made the core WAY better at attacking. At 10 range, it can pick off spines, queens and bunkers while mitigating return fire.

And now you've buffed its burst damage while reducing the defensive availability of the effect (shorter duration, higher energy cost). I'm guessing that this too was to make purify kill more units before they retreat. But defensively, that extra retreat damage comes at the cost of making purify less available and allowing the attacker to return sooner. And it naturally makes the core even stronger for attacks where you can plan for that huge DPS to be there right when you need it.

In Starcraft, the attacker chooses WHEN the battle happens. That means the attacker wants to be powerful in a short burst, while the defender wants to be equally ready at all times to prevent the attacker from forcing the fight at a moment of weakness. At 100 energy for purify, the mothership core has exactly zero defensive utility for the first 89 seconds after it spawns. That's a gigantic window where the defender would absolutely be better off if they hadn't built the core. And after that 25 second purify cast, there's another 153 second window where the core is again completely and utterly useless.

Does 89 seconds of weakness, 25 seconds of face-smashing awesomeness, and 153 seconds of weakness sound like a good defense? No, it sounds awful--the attacker just fights during one of the huge windows of weakness.

But it's AWESOME for an attack where you get to force the fight to happen during those 25 seconds.

What you need to do to make purify good for defense is make it so that it's always available to the defender. In order to discourage offensive use, you need to make it not too powerful in short bursts which an attacker will always manipulate to line up with the engagement. Simply put, reduce or remove the energy requirement, and nerf the attack itself.

And while you're at it, if you really don't want the mothership core to be used offensively, take the range back down to 7 and make purify only enabled when the mothership core is positioned within a power field. That way, its attack can be plenty powerful for defense, but super weak for offense since the attacker would have to slow push pylons into the enemy's base in order to make a mothership core rush deal any lasting damage.

Please fix this. Don't keep buffing its ability to pick off a retreating unit at 10 range--that just makes it insanely strong for an attack. Defense needs to be reliable and available. Offense needs to be powerful in short bursts. This critical concept needs to be reflected in purify's design.

PS: I'd appreciate it if someone with beta access could re-post this in the HOTS beta forums so that it has a snowball's chance in hell to actually be seen.