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On September 24 2012 09:42 kcdc wrote:
Black lizard, you're right that the new units might make 2 base all ins weaker. Still, if Z takes a quick third, they narrowly defend a 7 gate all in with hatch tech units in WoL. It's hard to imagine swarm hosts coming out in time and in large enough numbers to defend the timing at 8:30. Maybe Z will open lower income with faster tech to defend P's 2 base timings, but if the MsC is strong enough offensively to force Z into tech openings, that strikes me as a problem on its own. Why not just make it less useful for those attacks?
Well, I kind of see the MSC as the new reaver (reminds me of BW PvT). It forces tech from the opponent, it can defend or attack very cost effeciently, but it's really slow and vulnerable in certain situations. I think it will work itself out, but yeah it could definitely have the result of less gasless expanding from Z and T and max droning from Z. From my point of view, that is probably a good thing in theory. More mixed armies because tech is forcing tech, instead of quick max roach pushes and 2 base gateway only Protoss all-ins.
I think you hit the nail on the head about Z. The way I'm playing Z right now is just like that- I rush to swarmhosts and force Protoss to seriously go out of his way to deal with them. Then I get droned up on 3 bases or get enough drones to support mutas on 3 bases and put on a lot of pressure that way. Without being very efficient I've taken down a lot of Protoss with just a lot of micro and poor larva injects (I almost never played Z till a couple of months ago). I have a feeling the pros could make this sort of build really deadly. And it's versatile because you can keep constant pressure or just sit back and drone madly.
I'm not sure if widow mines could be used the same way, but I'm experimenting with them now. They definitely have potential, but they don't feel as powerful as swarmhosts to me yet.
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Hm, I would have agreed with the Op a week ago but recently I've seen that the reduced duration on the core does make it less effective at being offensive, the short duration means the mothership core needs to get in to the most perfect spot before engaging in order to do any damage. But when you are defending you don't have to position your core at all, so you can make full use of the core the moment your opponent decides to engage. In theory I agree with the Op, but in practice Purify seems to be much worse offensively now than it was before, and only marginally worse defensively.
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I say make it a flying battery shield.
3 Spells
1) recharge energy
2) recharge shield
3) recall
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In theory, yeah. In practice, the core has been used as far less offensive than before since the patch, owing in part to the fact that you can simply run away from it and wait it out, even if it is in your base, it is better for it to blast your pylons than your army.
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On September 25 2012 01:11 Thrasymachus725 wrote:
In theory, yeah. In practice, the core has been used as far less offensive than before since the patch, owing in part to the fact that you can simply run away from it and wait it out, even if it is in your base, it is better for it to blast your pylons than your army.
I'm still not in the beta, but it's hard to imagine that Protoss players wouldn't use the option of 50 seconds of an offensive super-cannon for 2-base timings against Z and T. Even if the attacks aren't overpowered, you still have an issue where purify is better for offense than it is for defense. If it sucks for offense, that just means it will suck more for defense. However the stats are tuned, there unit cannot meet its design goals so long as it's better at offense than at defense.
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i think that the mothership core needs a rework, they are kinda satisfied but i m not
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On September 25 2012 01:50 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 01:11 Thrasymachus725 wrote:
In theory, yeah. In practice, the core has been used as far less offensive than before since the patch, owing in part to the fact that you can simply run away from it and wait it out, even if it is in your base, it is better for it to blast your pylons than your army. I'm still not in the beta, but it's hard to imagine that Protoss players wouldn't use the option of 50 seconds of an offensive super-cannon for 2-base timings against Z and T. Even if the attacks aren't overpowered, you still have an issue where purify is better for offense than it is for defense. If it sucks for offense, that just means it will suck more for defense. However the stats are tuned, there unit cannot meet its design goals so long as it's better at offense than at defense.
I'm not in the beta either, but I have a hard time imagining that you can "sneak" a mothership core which doesn't start production until after a core is done across the map to a Terran's base. Kinda requires a Terran player not to be looking for it (or not building marines), doesn't it? Protoss doesn't have many early units at all to support it along its path. Think moving Siege Tanks only worse (because if you trigger the MC's attack before it reaches the base, it gets there and... waits...).
For Z, they always have 3 queens anyway, and 3 Queens can kill a MC in about 10 seconds - unless they trigger the attack, which the queens can micro away from, and overlords to grant vision of the approaching MC.
I'm perfectly willing to concede that super-mode for 25 seconds for 100 energy is not what is needed, but I have a hard time believing that the Mothership Core will see offensive usage for very long once players know how to combat it. For me, if they meant it to be a defensive unit, they've done an awful job. I'll use it as a macro/offensive support unit by using recalls and energize - but you're definitely right when you say that Purify is awful.
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Aren't all these problems fixed by making the core static, like it used to be?
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At 100 energy for purify, the mothership core has exactly zero defensive utility for the first 89 seconds after it spawns. That's a gigantic window where the defender would absolutely be better off if they hadn't built the core.
Wrong. With one sentry, the core gives 4 FF by using energize. That means that if you IMMIDIATLY use a FF after a sentry spawns and then energize, you will have at least 5 FF's ... At least... You will probably have 6 FF's by the time a attack comes... With only one sentry.. Two sentry's and you will have around 8!!! FFs when the attack hit... I dare say thats pretty fricking good as a defensive ability...
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Any opinions on the following suggestion?
Purify becomes a toggle on/off.
Short transformation animation (like a siege tank)
Range should be 6-8.
While transformed, it doesn't generate energy and is immobile..
For defense, the attackers can't just wait it out.
For offense, transformation time and reduced range (from 10) makes it easier to kill with fast response from marines/queens/stalkers.
Upon toggling it off, short animation again and then it starts generating energy as normal.
Make the cost for activating purify be the loss of any energy that would have been generated. Difference between good/bad players is starting it soon enough that it doesn't get sniped and keeping it active for as long as possible to generate energy.
~Edit this also leaves more energy for 'energize' and 'recall', hopefully leading to more usage of them. Also might lead to more aggressive builds against protoss so that they keep it in purifier mode limiting energy growth.
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On September 25 2012 03:57 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 01:50 kcdc wrote:On September 25 2012 01:11 Thrasymachus725 wrote:
In theory, yeah. In practice, the core has been used as far less offensive than before since the patch, owing in part to the fact that you can simply run away from it and wait it out, even if it is in your base, it is better for it to blast your pylons than your army. I'm still not in the beta, but it's hard to imagine that Protoss players wouldn't use the option of 50 seconds of an offensive super-cannon for 2-base timings against Z and T. Even if the attacks aren't overpowered, you still have an issue where purify is better for offense than it is for defense. If it sucks for offense, that just means it will suck more for defense. However the stats are tuned, there unit cannot meet its design goals so long as it's better at offense than at defense. I'm not in the beta either, but I have a hard time imagining that you can "sneak" a mothership core which doesn't start production until after a core is done across the map to a Terran's base. Kinda requires a Terran player not to be looking for it (or not building marines), doesn't it? Protoss doesn't have many early units at all to support it along its path. Think moving Siege Tanks only worse (because if you trigger the MC's attack before it reaches the base, it gets there and... waits...). For Z, they always have 3 queens anyway, and 3 Queens can kill a MC in about 10 seconds - unless they trigger the attack, which the queens can micro away from, and overlords to grant vision of the approaching MC. I'm perfectly willing to concede that super-mode for 25 seconds for 100 energy is not what is needed, but I have a hard time believing that the Mothership Core will see offensive usage for very long once players know how to combat it. For me, if they meant it to be a defensive unit, they've done an awful job. I'll use it as a macro/offensive support unit by using recalls and energize - but you're definitely right when you say that Purify is awful.
It really depends how the metagame settles, but if you threw the current MsC into WoL, you'd definitely be able to get it safely across the map against standard T and Z WoL builds.
Against a gasless FE, building 3 stalkers allows you to easily keep Terran in his base until 7 minutes or so when he finishes concussive shells. And if you're going for a big warpgate timing, you auto-win if you catch Terran out on the map right before your timing. Maybe Terran's opening will change, but as is, you should be able to get the MsC to his bunkers no problem.
Against Zerg's gasless 3 base opening, Z has nothing that moves off creep and shoots up until 10 minutes. Z should be able to scout it coming and they can build extra queens to kill it, but they also have to worry about your main army. 7 gates and will be a stronger due to MsC support. I've also heard complaints about the MsC making phoenix harass stronger since it can kill queens quickly and pick off spores from 10 range. 50/50 to take out Z's AA at their third sounds like a great trade for P.
PS: Anyone want to bump the thread on the Bnet forums? I'm hoping we'll get some smart MsC changes this week.
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i would love to see Purify and MSC be redesigned to be closer to the alpha version and posibly allow more than 1 to be build at a time and rename to something else making it a unique unit on it's own.
MSC should have 2 modes and cost 2 food
Mobile mode:
Movement speed: 1.88
No attack
Mass Recall 75 energy
Wormhole 50 energy (warp to target nexus)
Energize ?? energy (refill shields and energy of unit)
Dock (dock with nexus, takes 4 seconds)
Dock mode:
Movement speed: 0
Purifier Beams: 10(+1 air upgrade)x4 dmg with 1,4 cooldown for 28,5 dps to a single target at range 9
Unknown abilitys (find something good)
Refit Core (Builds the Mothership by refitting the unit as the core of the mothership)
Undock (undock from nexus, takes 4 seconds)
The idea would be that in it's mobile form it's a "unit" that works as a support caster for mainly travel purposes with mass recall and wormhole
But also it's able to dock with the nexus to become a defensive combat unit that you cant just "wait out" the "Purify" ability when used defensivly.
The mothership itself should retain the attack from the core (it's slightly stronger than the mothership's current attack)
Just my 2 cents... i realy liked the alpha idea of an "docked" core on the nexus as early defence and i was quite sad when they wanted it to "feel like a unit" and gave it movement speed, thus having to nerf the poor thing into the ground.
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How about an AOE slow when the MSC hits a unit? Makes the attacker's job harder because attacking is such a commitment, while not buffing the MSC's current offensive strength.
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What's so wrong about being able to draw out the purify spell? If you make it a toggled ability to counteract waiting it out, you'll have to nerf the spell a whole bunch so that it's only a mildly powerful attack.
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In this thread Browder said the following on the MsC:
Noted. Thank you guys for the thread. We are seeing a lot of aggresion with the unit which was not the intent with the current balance. I feel like we should have anticipated this problem.=)
We'll look at it.
It kind of pisses me off that a herp derp "Mothership core is too strong cuz it's hard to win with 1/1/1 now!" thread got a response while my thread which had actual analysis got ignored. He's also right that they should have anticipated this problem.
It annoys me that my thread got ignored, but at least they're now aware that it's a problem. We'll see what they do about it. The fact that this offensive use issue caught them by surprise makes me skeptical that they understand how the game works. Can someone with beta access please bump my explanation? It can be found here:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606432986
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On September 25 2012 11:03 kcdc wrote:In this thread Browder said the following on the MsC: Show nested quote +Noted. Thank you guys for the thread. We are seeing a lot of aggresion with the unit which was not the intent with the current balance. I feel like we should have anticipated this problem.=)
We'll look at it. It kind of pisses me off that a herp derp "Mothership core is too strong cuz it's hard to win with 1/1/1 now!" thread got a response while my thread which had actual analysis got ignored. He's also right that they should have anticipated this problem. It annoys me that my thread got ignored, but at least they're now aware that it's a problem. We'll see what they do about it. The fact that this offensive use issue caught them by surprise makes me skeptical that they understand how the game works. Can someone with beta access please bump my explanation? It can be found here: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606432986
That thread seems really silly. But then, I'm sure there's some marketing/PR reason they respond to threads like that instead of threads that... um.... make sense.
On September 25 2012 05:23 kcdc wrote:
Against a gasless FE, building 3 stalkers allows you to easily keep Terran in his base until 7 minutes or so when he finishes concussive shells. And if you're going for a big warpgate timing, you auto-win if you catch Terran out on the map right before your timing. Maybe Terran's opening will change, but as is, you should be able to get the MsC to his bunkers no problem.
Against Zerg's gasless 3 base opening, Z has nothing that moves off creep and shoots up until 10 minutes. Z should be able to scout it coming and they can build extra queens to kill it, but they also have to worry about your main army. 7 gates and will be a stronger due to MsC support. I've also heard complaints about the MsC making phoenix harass stronger since it can kill queens quickly and pick off spores from 10 range. 50/50 to take out Z's AA at their third sounds like a great trade for P.
Yeah, it's possible that this is what's going to happen. However, if it detracts from a potentially deadly 2-base allin, I wouldn't be surprised if Terrans either went Concussive first or figured out some early marine tactics to push out and mess with you. The main reason they don't push out before concussive right now is because they don't have to. If you could make tanks that could siege up in front of their nat, I'd imagine they'd find a way to push out anyway. Maybe the fact that it could make T more conservative makes it a "good offensive unit", but to me it just means its new.
PvZ you may be right, since 2-base allins are pretty strong already. But we also don't know how well spines and swarm hosts will be at deflecting 2-base pressure.
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On September 25 2012 04:16 ZealotSensei wrote:Show nested quote +At 100 energy for purify, the mothership core has exactly zero defensive utility for the first 89 seconds after it spawns. That's a gigantic window where the defender would absolutely be better off if they hadn't built the core. Wrong. With one sentry, the core gives 4 FF by using energize. That means that if you IMMIDIATLY use a FF after a sentry spawns and then energize, you will have at least 5 FF's ... At least... You will probably have 6 FF's by the time a attack comes... With only one sentry.. Two sentry's and you will have around 8!!! FFs when the attack hit... I dare say thats pretty fricking good as a defensive ability...
Um, wouldn't it still take the 89 seconds to get 100 energy for energize?
I know at that point it might be arguable that energize is better than purify, but the point is that it takes those 89 seconds after it spawns to use *any* ability since they all cost 100 energy.
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Purify should work like ghost cloak. Initial energy cost, and then last as long as you have energy for. Adjust attack power as required. That would greatly enhance it's defensive utility, and going back to 7 range and a damage reduction of some sort would negate a lot of it's too strong offensive capabilities.
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On September 25 2012 11:03 kcdc wrote:
It kind of pisses me off that a herp derp "Mothership core is too strong cuz it's hard to win with 1/1/1 now!" thread got a response while my thread which had actual analysis got ignored.
It got ignored because it's on the third page, LOL.
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The easiest fix is restrict movement between powered buildings.
A 0-25 mp cost teleport spell.
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EPT
