EPTIn my opinion I think Purify should do splash damage or very fast attack speed with bonus vs light. This way, the mothership core will be the best defense in the early game against the basic units like zealot/marine/zergling. Right now in PvZ if he runs with tons of zerglings, the mothership core shooting its kinda slow attack and overkilling lings with 45 damage just isn't effective and the zerglings still do damage. With the changes I proposed, purify will no longer be effective against queens, buildings or higher tech units making it more an early game defense spell and nullifying the offensive part of it.
Purify Is Going Backwards - Page 7
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Adonminus
Israel543 Posts
In my opinion I think Purify should do splash damage or very fast attack speed with bonus vs light. This way, the mothership core will be the best defense in the early game against the basic units like zealot/marine/zergling. Right now in PvZ if he runs with tons of zerglings, the mothership core shooting its kinda slow attack and overkilling lings with 45 damage just isn't effective and the zerglings still do damage. With the changes I proposed, purify will no longer be effective against queens, buildings or higher tech units making it more an early game defense spell and nullifying the offensive part of it. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
On September 25 2012 18:37 Adonminus wrote: I was playing PvZ the other day, rallied mothership core to enemy base, killed 3 queens 5 drones at 5 minutes. Pretty overpowered in offense. In my opinion I think Purify should do splash damage or very fast attack speed with bonus vs light. This way, the mothership core will be the best defense in the early game against the basic units like zealot/marine/zergling. Right now in PvZ if he runs with tons of zerglings, the mothership core shooting its kinda slow attack and overkilling lings with 45 damage just isn't effective and the zerglings still do damage. With the changes I proposed, purify will no longer be effective against queens, buildings or higher tech units making it more an early game defense spell and nullifying the offensive part of it. Very good points, I only want to add one point here that you might have overlooked: If it does some kind of splash + bonus vs light, wouldn't this also enable to rape workers quickly in offence early on? (similar to hellion harass) This obviously would also depend on its range, because if the range is low enough (like 7) combined with the super slow ass movement speed your opponent could see it way in advance to prevent all the workers getting raped. If it has a higher range (like 10) I think this might cause another issue here. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On September 25 2012 18:37 Adonminus wrote: I was playing PvZ the other day, rallied mothership core to enemy base, killed 3 queens 5 drones at 5 minutes. Pretty overpowered in offense. In my opinion I think Purify should do splash damage or very fast attack speed with bonus vs light. This way, the mothership core will be the best defense in the early game against the basic units like zealot/marine/zergling. Right now in PvZ if he runs with tons of zerglings, the mothership core shooting its kinda slow attack and overkilling lings with 45 damage just isn't effective and the zerglings still do damage. With the changes I proposed, purify will no longer be effective against queens, buildings or higher tech units making it more an early game defense spell and nullifying the offensive part of it. If your mothership core arrived at 5 minutes, that means that either you managed to build it ridiculously early, you're playing on a ridiculous map, or that your opponent didn't scout you and went blind three-bases while you rushed him. It takes at least 20 seconds to get 100 minerals for your initial pylon, and a further 30 to get 150 minerals (i.e. realistically, you probably won't start a gate before 1 minute). From there, it's a further 1:50 until your core is up (no earlier than 2:50). If you're playing on Steppes of War, it takes about 40 seconds for a probe to reach the Nat from your main Nexus. A probe is nearly exactly 6 times slower than a probe - meaning it'll take you 4 minutes (that's right - FOUR MINUTES) to get from your Nexus to your opponent's nat. All things told, it is impossible to get a Mothership Core to your opponent's natural - even on Steppes of War - earlier than 7 minutes unless you do something really crazy. You claim you got it there in five. Either there's something I'm missing, you proxied a Nexus (lol), or your story seems unlikely. Either way, there's definitely a ton of missing information in this story you've posted of getting a MC to your opponent's base at 5 minutes. Edit: If you watch the Day9 daily about Mothership Core tricks, he mentions that his Mothership Core arrives at zerg's base at around 8 or 9 minutes to support a 4-gate. What's he doing differently that makes him 3 or 4 minutes behind you? | ||
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TheLunatic
309 Posts
On September 21 2012 10:26 rpgalon wrote: they should just go back with it being immobile, make the movement speed 0, and give to it an ability that has a cooldown or requires low energy, that allows the MC to teleport to any protoss building (maybe exclude pylons since it could be used for cheese). This, this right here sounds like an awsome solution | ||
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Ramone
Canada85 Posts
1) as already mentioned, somehow link it's purify ability to being in pylon range thus making it effective as a defence but limited as an offense. I've read people saying that "protoss build a proxy pylon anyways so this wouldn't change anything." If you've ever played protoss or even watched a protoss match, you'll know that opposing players actively seek out proxy pylons and destroy them even when they're hidden in creative places. Yes, the protoss usually manages to get a pylon up SOMEWHERE, but it's rarely going to be in a strategic position to use a purify. Proxy pylons are usually hidden in a nook somewhere close enough to reinforce, but rarely close enough to actually warp straight into a base....other than a 4 gate of course, but from my understanding, a Mothership Core "rush" isn't comparable to a 4 gate. 2) Another angle could be to change purify from a time based ability to "charge" based ability, or perhaps a combination of the two. For example, purify lasts for 75 seconds or 15 shots, whichever comes first. That makes it tough for the attacker to juke the defender into using purify only to retreat for 25 seconds and return. You could even combine both ideas to ensure it's not used offensively. Cheers, Ramone | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
If not, I like the idea that it needs to be in a power field, rather than lowering the damage. Currently, the core does a really good job of countering early game agression and all ins in PvP. If it did less damage, I feel it would lose to much punch in that match up. | ||
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Zanno
United States1484 Posts
would look awesome and is virtually unavoidable outside of some clutch blink you also only get one shot, so you need to make it count you might wipe out one army only for an even bigger one to show up you could make it kill your own units too, giving the enemy time to react when they see you pull your probes | ||
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archon256
United States363 Posts
On September 26 2012 02:36 Plansix wrote: If the purify ability made it so the core could not move, would that solve some of the issues? Then the core could do everything it currently does, but is locked in once it goes into turret mode. Even if it was used for agression, the opponent could just back away. This would make it worse at defending too, since the opponent could choose to attack somewhere else while the core is stationary (or just wait for Purify to end as currently). You could buff the range to compensate, but then the core would become a siege weapon (doesn't matter if its stationary if it's attacking defensive structures). | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 26 2012 02:43 archon256 wrote: This would make it worse at defending too, since the opponent could choose to attack somewhere else while the core is stationary (or just wait for Purify to end as currently). You could buff the range to compensate, but then the core would become a siege weapon (doesn't matter if its stationary if it's attacking defensive structures). I think it being worse for defending is fine, since protoss it is only clutch in the super early game. Abilities like blink and drops are not a factor at that point. After that, it is just a bonus for dealing with pushes, but not the key to victory. And 10 range is more than enough to get things done. | ||
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Indolent
Poland137 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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EnE
417 Posts
On September 21 2012 09:30 wcr.4fun wrote: Don't bother reasoning with logic. We've got a battle hellion who's biological now. Yeah thats like the most retarded thing imaginable | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 26 2012 03:08 EnE wrote: Yeah thats like the most retarded thing imaginable SCV can repair BCs and vikings without flying, but zealots cannot figure out how to hit them. Infestors can mind control colossi, even though they are robots. Also, BCs, because there is only one man driving that entire ship. Also, a thor can be air lifted in suitcase form and is larger than the thing lifting it. Logic does not apply to SC2. It is a game, pure and simple. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On September 26 2012 03:02 kcdc wrote: Yep, spend 50/50, scoot core over to airspace near natural (think Cloud Kingdom), 1-shot workers from 10 range. What does Terran do about that with their only available AA having 5 range? Do they just stop mining until the core runs out of energy? This is a remarkably relevant point. Whereas Queens can wander away if they start getting shot, Terran's only long range anti-air is the Turret - and well, you can just kill the Turret from range 9 because it can't move away like the queen can. You wouldn't have to worry about this until 9-10 minutes in, but that's not long enough for current terran builds to have a starport up and have Vikings built. Either the mapmaking should take this into account, or MC will be able to do crazy damage early on when naturals have open space around them. This is also true in PvP if your opponent's MC is low on energy. I mean I guess in PvP you're taking a risk that your opponent is not going phoenixes... | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
But the real answer is that the final MsC won't have 10 range and it won't 1-shot workers. | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
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Adonminus
Israel543 Posts
On September 25 2012 23:23 Treehead wrote: If your mothership core arrived at 5 minutes, that means that either you managed to build it ridiculously early, you're playing on a ridiculous map, or that your opponent didn't scout you and went blind three-bases while you rushed him. It takes at least 20 seconds to get 100 minerals for your initial pylon, and a further 30 to get 150 minerals (i.e. realistically, you probably won't start a gate before 1 minute). From there, it's a further 1:50 until your core is up (no earlier than 2:50). If you're playing on Steppes of War, it takes about 40 seconds for a probe to reach the Nat from your main Nexus. A probe is nearly exactly 6 times slower than a probe - meaning it'll take you 4 minutes (that's right - FOUR MINUTES) to get from your Nexus to your opponent's nat. All things told, it is impossible to get a Mothership Core to your opponent's natural - even on Steppes of War - earlier than 7 minutes unless you do something really crazy. You claim you got it there in five. Either there's something I'm missing, you proxied a Nexus (lol), or your story seems unlikely. Either way, there's definitely a ton of missing information in this story you've posted of getting a MC to your opponent's base at 5 minutes. Edit: If you watch the Day9 daily about Mothership Core tricks, he mentions that his Mothership Core arrives at zerg's base at around 8 or 9 minutes to support a 4-gate. What's he doing differently that makes him 3 or 4 minutes behind you? I was playing on close air on that 4 player ice map. Fractured Glacier. Spawned in 11 oclock and he was 2 oclock, it's a very short distance. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On September 26 2012 05:05 Adonminus wrote: I was playing on close air on that 4 player ice map. Fractured Glacier. Spawned in 11 oclock and he was 2 oclock, it's a very short distance. Leave it to Blizzard to make a map where your Nexus is closer to your opponent's natural than it is to yours. I can't think of any way that that could possibly be used abusively (MC aside).  I really think your example is a mapmaking issue - not a MC design issue. Good to see we'll be back to having abysmal maps to play on again. | ||
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meadbert
United States681 Posts
Then you could simultaneously make it weaker. The result would be a unit that is very strong for defense, but much weaker for offense. | ||
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