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The programming solution should be rather simple actually, and shouldn't involve tweaking the underlying engine or breaking the general unit behavior.
First they need to make Interceptors an actual unit - which should be simple enough, given that there's already a class for similar type of "swarm" units (Broodlings, Locusts). That way, Carriers would need range 8 to release Interceptors on a target inititally, but Interceptors themselves have a normal unit behavior and can be ordered to attack at maximum leash range once they're already out.
Also, didn't SC2BW already make Carriers (and most other units) control like in Brood War? That should be evidence enough that "it's complicated" is just a copout reason to not make the changes.
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Thank you for this video. As someone who did not really play brood war it is awesome to discover this type of things. Plus the carrier seems to work only when catching your opponent by surprise right now so it clearly needs some change.
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Thank you for the video and clear, in-depth explanations. I've been going about carrier micro incorrectly all along and this discussion of its particulars should help me use their full potential in BW. I hope these or similar intricacies make their way to SC2 as well.
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On September 17 2012 15:24 Talin wrote:
The programming solution should be rather simple actually, and shouldn't involve tweaking the underlying engine or breaking the general unit behavior.
First they need to make Interceptors an actual unit - which should be simple enough, given that there's already a class for similar type of "swarm" units (Broodlings, Locusts). That way, Carriers would need range 8 to release Interceptors on a target inititally, but Interceptors themselves have a normal unit behavior and can be ordered to attack at maximum leash range once they're already out.
Also, didn't SC2BW already make Carriers (and most other units) control like in Brood War? That should be evidence enough that "it's complicated" is just a copout reason to not make the changes.
in the SC2BW mod Carriers don't work like they do in BW I just tested it so they might not even have known about it or a way to make it work.
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wow even after all these BW years I didnt know about that carrier micro o.o
man, mind blown, and once again missing BW
thanks nony~
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Blizzard needs to add back these little micro tricks that were in BW into HOTS. Bugs/tricks like vulture micro, mutalisk stacking, etc were what made BW so amazing to watch.
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Greetings TL.
As you can plainly see from my post count, this is the first time I've felt compelled to post in here, though I've been coming here for a long while now for the epic SC2 coverage.
As a map maker who works on an expanded melee map called SC2+: Bizarro World, I'm reasonably familiar with the data editor. I had no idea what BW carrier micro really was - and subsequently was just buffing the numbers on the carrier to make it actually fun to play with (though I can't guarantee anything about real balance)
After seeing this thread, I think I finally know what people mean when they talk about BW carrier micro.
And I believe I have successfully created a decent work-around solution for target switching in the leash zone completely within the data editor (meaning that in principle, Blizzard could do this without any hardcoding changes).
-> search for the map named "Bizarro Carrier" on NA.
I set it up with two planetary fortresses and 2 carriers for P1 to play around with (you can ignore all the other game changes - this is just about the carrier micro right now)
If anyone is wondering about how the standard carrier's weapon actually works - it's actually a relatively complex affair. It also uses utilizes a few opaque, hard-coded ability/effect types with relatively limited customization options. A lot of its particular behaviours can't be directly controlled. (for anyone else interested, the brood lord weapon is even more complicated than the carriers)
For example, if you've ever played Star Battles, you'll notice that you can't launch your interceptors while your ship is moving. As cool as it would be to launch on the move, you simply can't do it.
As far as I can tell, this is a limitation of the game engine itself. A unit cannot use two 'active' abilities at the same time.(eg. the medivac cannot Move and use Heal simultaneously)
I speculate that an incredibly elaborate trigger could handle it, but that's neither here nor there since Blizzard won't put triggers in their maps.
At this moment in the middle of the night, I haven't any solid idea how to mimic the continuous deployment.
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Finally I can see why the SC2 Carrier sucks so much in comparison to the BW Carrier, thank you Tyler. Now for everybody to link this to blizzard
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Great insights, I hope that Blizzard seriously considers this and doesn't brush it off as another "you want BW, then go and play BW" argument
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its not only the carrier... but non bw players hardly know about this and most of the actual blizzard guys never worked on bw and have no clue about it
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Community is wiggly excited about BW micro :p Will the temple of Browder fall?
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On September 17 2012 10:20 Ooshmagoosh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 10:06 NEOtheONE wrote:On September 17 2012 09:57 a176 wrote:
if toss can go mothership with regularity in sc2, they can definitely try for carrier switches
but i still wonder about corrupter counter Leash range > corruptor range so it would make for some really epic micro battles. They're going to have to do something about Fungal Growth...it already makes TvZ a pain in the butt. It's hard to handle 20+ corruptors shift-clicked onto your carriers when you can't move your junk at all.
Perhaps Blizzard could design Fungal Growth to work differently on capital ships. 10-20% speed/dmg(from original dmg) reduce short period of time so that carriers can still move when in effect of fungal. Smaller units Fungal works as normally.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 17 2012 17:06 Too_MuchZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 10:20 Ooshmagoosh wrote:On September 17 2012 10:06 NEOtheONE wrote:On September 17 2012 09:57 a176 wrote:
if toss can go mothership with regularity in sc2, they can definitely try for carrier switches
but i still wonder about corrupter counter Leash range > corruptor range so it would make for some really epic micro battles. They're going to have to do something about Fungal Growth...it already makes TvZ a pain in the butt. It's hard to handle 20+ corruptors shift-clicked onto your carriers when you can't move your junk at all. Perhaps Blizzard could design Fungal Growth to work differently on capital ships. 10-20% speed/dmg(from original dmg) reduce short period of time so that carriers can still move when in effect of fungal. Smaller units Fungal works as normally.
Phase shield kinda deals with that in HotS.
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United States1719 Posts
THANK YOU! FINALLY A PRO HAS SPOKEN OUT
unbreak the carrier now, blizzard
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Well done, sir.. After 2 years of StarCraft 2 someone finally found the reason why carriers suck in StarCraft 2...
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I argue for implementing ALL BW mechanics in HOTS beta.
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If blizzard reads this and implements what Nony presented then carrier will be a unit to be feared again.
It makes you wonder though, how hard would it be to do this so that it would function in the same manner as in BW. BW's engine is outdated and made of old coding methods but it's still such a beautiful thing, I wonder how much of the carrier's mechanics were intended to truly work as they do.
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I think blizzard should empliment things like this to SC2, i love it!
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so in starcraft 2 the carrier bug is fixed.
dont whine
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On September 17 2012 17:46 Andr3 wrote:
If blizzard reads this and implements what Nony presented then carrier will be a unit to be feared again.
It would be feared against Mech and BL armies that don't have many infestors. Marines and Fungal do insane dps vs interceptors. These abilities just give Carriers a fighting Chance.
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EPT
