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On September 14 2012 07:33 ZeroClick wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 06:02 wcr.4fun wrote:
I think they should have experimented a bit with mutalisk or corruptor metamorphoses. After all, mutalisks could morph into guardians which made them incredibly usefull even when their harrass faded away in zvt/zvp. And they could also morph into devourers, although not used a lot, could be useful against corsairs etc. I agree. IMHO, with Spire we can create Mutalisks. Then... 1) You can directly morph it to Corruptors; 2) With Hive tech, morph it to Vipers; 3) With Greater Spire tech, morph it to Brood Lords; Best Sinergy AND it will honor the MUTA in the name Mutalisks. How sick it would be, if mutalisks morphed from overlords like from big eggs or placenta ball. And when they were to fly out, overlord would tear apart and creep would fall on to the earth.
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I kinda like the first idea: swarm hosts on the hydra den.
Someone did point out that that means you could (theoretically, it'd be incredibly gas-intensive) get enduring locusts and pathogen glands at the same time. However, I'm not sure how much of a problem that is: currently it seems zerg have to choose pretty much between getting a decent number of swarm hosts, or a decent number of infestors, due to gas. Getting both at once is pretty much ruled out anyway and I agree that it seems to fit better on the hydra den and deemphasizes the infestation pit a bit.
The viper seems good where it is. Many people have pointed out that on the greater spire it would just come wayyy too late. The only realistic alternative I see is to give the viper its own building, available at lair tech (kinda like a defiler, but available earlier). If that makes it available too early, simply make consume an upgrade.
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On September 14 2012 07:43 Tuczniak wrote:
How sick it would be, if mutalisks morphed from overlords like from big eggs or placenta ball. And when they were to fly out, overlord would tear apart and creep would fall on to the earth.
"morphed from overlords"? I didn't say it. I stated "Spire". But it's a funny view!
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It is interesting to have those two unlocked by the infestation pit.
My first thought is to put it in the hydra den, maybe we might see hydras work well with locusts to tank for them. Even on creep early Hydras could get in and out fast enough.
Other places to put them is Roach Den or Evolution chamber.
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Hydra/host is actually viable in ZvZ. Also, Roach/Hydra/Corrupter is now fairly viable in ZvP thanks to Hydra speed -- Ret talks about this on his stream often. The DPS jump is substantial. Not sure what all of this anti-hydra talk is about. 
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I completely agree with the OP. Adding swarm host to infestation pit means players will be more likely to skip spire and hydra den and head straight for the pit and onward to hive, because it makes that choice much safer than it used to be. That's a real shame because hydra- and muta-based play is more fun to watch, IMHO.
As a zerg player I can't say I'm a fan of the swarm host. It doesn't really seem to require much skill to use and isn't at all fun to watch. I'm considering switching races if this is going to be a core unit, because I can't see ever enjoying playing with it.
I never played or watched BW but I know the lurker is a revered unit. People keep comparing swarm host to the lurker. Are they really comparable in function? Swarm host seems to me to be about the equivalent of a stealthed spine crawler that can burrow off creep. I'd be curious to hear the views of some BW vets about this unit.
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Honestly, I personally feel that the spire (not the Gspire) is already largely a dead tech structure.
Mutalisks are already basically irrelevant in ZvP and struggle for viability in ZvT and ZvZ already in WoL. The new mid and high-tier unit options double down on making the Mutalisk a useless unit by offering better/cheaper/more flexible alternatives while simultaneously advancing your tech.
TLDR: Building a Mutalisk in mid-game is already a bad thing in all MU. With the new tech options, it will become a niche thing at best and suicide at worst. Mutas will lose their viability in HotS any way you cut it, they already have in WoL IMO.
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On September 14 2012 09:08 Jermstuddog wrote:
Honestly, I personally feel that the spire (not the Gspire) is already largely a dead tech structure.
Mutalisks are already basically irrelevant in ZvP and struggle for viability in ZvT and ZvZ already in WoL. The new mid and high-tier unit options double down on making the Mutalisk a useless unit by offering better/cheaper/more flexible alternatives while simultaneously advancing your tech.
TLDR: Building a Mutalisk in mid-game is already a bad thing in all MU. With the new tech options, it will become a niche thing at best and suicide at worst. Mutas will lose their viability in HotS any way you cut it, they already have in WoL IMO.
Mutalisks suffer from being too pigeonholed into harass. They had good use in TvZ for sniping Tanks, but Vipers seem to be more cost-effective at it. They were good at keeping Protoss in their base, but MommaCore makes it less dangerous to push. I guess they need a Battle Hellion treatment or something, or perhaps even a minor HP buff. We probably won't see a new evolution for the Muta until LoV, though.
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let muta morph into corruptor. this way you could harrass with mutas and transition into roach/speedhydra/corruptor or BL/infestor or swarmhost/hydra/corruptor etc. much more easily and would make mutas a lot more viable and not a "kill the opponent or die trying" unit. plus you could actually make like 10-12 of them and transition out of them instead of having to commit for much more since right now is to threaten a baserace with mass muta in zvp.
make viper lairtech + spire (= 130 sec buildtime) which is around the 150 sec needed for IP + hive. this way spire would keep 2 units while making mutas more viable without buffing the muta as a unit itself.
and for gods sake: make hydraspeed lairtech! we want more multipronged aggression and a longer midgame and thats one of the big things you can make it happen with.
the maps have gotten really muta unfriendly btw. on most maps the natural is protected by the main and 3rd base which makes it super easy to defend vs mutas. so more air space behind bases could "buff" muta play a lot.
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I'm not certain Mutalisks in WoL are as bad as people are making them out to be. Mutalisks may be map dependent, but they are situationally strong units that cause the creation of static defenses, the division of armies and control the board. They're a harassment unit with a timing window by design, and I think it's "cheating" if you're going to make them the "morph" unit for Broodlords in order to force the players to use them. I thought about making Hydralisks the morph unit for Swarm Hosts in order to force players to use them as well, but in the end all you're really doing is dictating to the players what they should do instead of recommending them to explore the unit for themselves.
The Corrupter is fine, it may be one of the most underappreciated units in the game but it plays it's role in your army perfectly. As far as making Vipers Spire only Tech as opposed to Spire + Hive tech or just Hive tech I think all three options are viable one way or the other, altho' I prefer Spire + Hive tech to maintain the same timing window but force the construction of a Spire as soon as Hive begins research.
Out of,
Hydralisk Den, Infestation Pit, Hive, Spire
Spire, Infestation Pit, Hive
Infestation Pit, Hive, Spire
Infestation Pit, Hive, Ultralisks
Each have their strengths and weaknesses based on the total amount of agression, number of units, resources and time spent and tech buildings produced to reach unit parody, with Hydralisk Den, Infestation Pit, Hive, Spire having the most aggression and the most units but expending the most amount of resources, time and building the most tech buildings and researching the most upgrades etc.
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On September 14 2012 06:57 ZeroClick wrote:Funny idea: Swarm Hosts requires Nydus Networks due the underground nature of the Swarm Hosts. In the end, it can be an incentive to use more Nydus Worms (in sinergy with Swarm Hosts), and to ease the fact of HotS doesn't comes with the Nydus Worms buffs... 
I actually thought the same when i read the OP. This would really take away a lot of the cheesiness of nydus worm tactics also.
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I do think mid-game spire tech (mutas) need a little love, Infestation pit beats it in every way with faster tech time, more robust units, now a new siege unit, faster hive tech ect.
I am curious how a tiny range buff on mutas would play out, like +.5 range so that they are still super fast & fragile, but maybe a bit easier to get in, do damage then get out.
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On September 14 2012 07:33 ZeroClick wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 06:02 wcr.4fun wrote:
I think they should have experimented a bit with mutalisk or corruptor metamorphoses. After all, mutalisks could morph into guardians which made them incredibly usefull even when their harrass faded away in zvt/zvp. And they could also morph into devourers, although not used a lot, could be useful against corsairs etc. I agree. IMHO, with Spire we can create Mutalisks. Then... 1) You can directly morph it to Corruptors; 2) With Hive tech, morph it to Vipers; 3) With Greater Spire tech, morph it to Brood Lords; Best Sinergy AND it will honor the MUTA in the name Mutalisks.
I really like this idea. In ZvP in WoL I VERY VERY often have leftover 10-20 mutas that don't do anything anymore since the storm tech or my proggression into infestor Broodlord. Same in hots, going muta vs toss ends up with leftover mutas when u switch into something else (swarmhosts usually)
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On September 15 2012 00:09 Matiz_pl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 07:33 ZeroClick wrote:On September 14 2012 06:02 wcr.4fun wrote:
I think they should have experimented a bit with mutalisk or corruptor metamorphoses. After all, mutalisks could morph into guardians which made them incredibly usefull even when their harrass faded away in zvt/zvp. And they could also morph into devourers, although not used a lot, could be useful against corsairs etc. I agree. IMHO, with Spire we can create Mutalisks. Then... 1) You can directly morph it to Corruptors; 2) With Hive tech, morph it to Vipers; 3) With Greater Spire tech, morph it to Brood Lords; Best Sinergy AND it will honor the MUTA in the name Mutalisks. I really like this idea. In ZvP in WoL I VERY VERY often have leftover 10-20 mutas that don't do anything anymore since the storm tech or my proggression into infestor Broodlord. Same in hots, going muta vs toss ends up with leftover mutas when u switch into something else (swarmhosts usually)
If you still have Mutas in your army, and you aren't doing ANYTHING useful with them, than you are obviously doing something very wrong...
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when the game progresses into late periods of midgame the transition into BL's from mutas is not smooth, you basically have to sacrifice mutas, obviously you can do it in efficient way (sometimes hard if protoss is good) but still the fact remains that you have to sac them
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I'm not certain if trading Mutalisks and Roaches is a design flaw or a design intent, because it's clear some units are only meant to be used in early game compositions as transitional units to higher tech units. Roaches, Mutalisks and to a lesser extent Banelings all become "null and void" once you reach your Broodlord, Corrupter, Infestor, Queen deathball and the most standard tech switch away from the deathball is towards fully upgraded Zerglings. And even Zerglings have a built in trading mechanic in the form of morph Baneling, Banelings are as good as traded by just being built.
Maybe Roaches will become more "mainstay" units when players depart from melee upgrades towards ranged upgrades and stay on Queen, Roach, Swarmhost, Infestor, Viper as things are, because Queens and Infestors can deal with most air units and Hydralisks are fairly unnecessary. Even Corrupters are fairly unnecessary, because you get Spire tech at the same time you get Hive tech when you go for Infestation Pit first and Vipers are arguably better than Corrupters vs. Colossus. This is another point in the design flaw of Viper's position in the tech tree, it took one of the Corrupter's jobs away at the exact same timing window.
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EPT
