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ChoDing
United States740 Posts
On September 09 2012 05:52 Serpest wrote: Fantasy vultures are the scariest harassing unit in the game O_o +1 :D i wasnt going to talk about bw players and bw units.. but thank you for adding this even in sc 2 if you use hellions correctly...like LAST vs NESTEA in OSL round 16...you will see mech isnt immobile | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 09 2012 06:33 ChoDing wrote: +1 :D i wasnt going to talk about bw players and bw units.. but thank you for adding this even in sc 2 if you use hellions correctly...like LAST vs NESTEA in OSL round 16...you will see mech isnt immobile Well again when most people are talking about mech they are talking about the composition to take out a base for example. Hellion/vultures obviously aren't immobile but the heavy hitters that crush ground units like Thor/tanks shouldn't be fast and they aren't. | ||
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ChoDing
United States740 Posts
On September 09 2012 06:36 blade55555 wrote: Well again when most people are talking about mech they are talking about the composition to take out a base for example. Hellion/vultures obviously aren't immobile but the heavy hitters that crush ground units like Thor/tanks shouldn't be fast and they aren't. Thors and Tanks can be immobile yes yes sure why not but that composition isnt THAT immobile either. learn2turle, get 200 push ...win...omg terran op  EDIT: considering no one has used medivacs + mechs..idk it is immobile yet..we got alot of bw pros moving on to sc 2.. we will see this composition soon.. and this isNt immobile at all | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
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antifan
116 Posts
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FortMonty
United States63 Posts
If you ask me, I think the warhound should get 2 more nerfs to help it be more balanced, maybe 3. My first opinion, it should be changed from 2 supply to 3 supply, this is an absolute must, it's just too strong regardless to be only 2 supply and it shadows the marauder. Second, it should be light, not armored, this way, it would still hold an advantage over tanks and immortals, however, it would fall faster to marines, helions, pheonix, reapers, and so on and so forth. This could actually solve a lot of problems. Last, I think it should have it's health reduced from 220 to around 150-170, this way it won't have an enormous advantage in health and shouldn't be seriously hard to deal with over all. Granted these are just changes proposed by a layman, I think they would serve to keep the Warhound at it's original purpose of breaking tank lines and being viable in TvP, but wouldn't drastically over power an opponent. Thoughts? | ||
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InoyouS2
1005 Posts
On September 09 2012 06:53 Cloak wrote: If you want mobile mech, it needs to be weak. Mech usually means strong and bulky, so it runs counter to the theme of mech in the first place. Something so big looks ridiculous when it goes fast. Bio- small, cheap, numerous, mobile, swarm. Mech- big, few, powerful, expensive, immobile. Exactly, tanks should deal a LOT more damage than they currently do, at the moment they are awful in all match-ups. Likewise the warhound should be a lot slower, be more expensive and cost more supply. Battle hellions are nice, and I don't think they should be touched for the moment, I don't see much imbalance with them. Widow mine direct damage is high, so perhaps it can be used to snipe key units, but the problem is that those units are constantly being babysitted by detectors and meat shields. Ravens are a lot better now, and we actually see them in match-ups more than before. For Protoss, mothership core needs slower movement speed and more health and cannon damage. Oracle needs higher vision range or higher HP, it's way too easy to snipe at the moment, alternatively give it a temporary cloak with a high energy cost (so that it can either scout or entomb, but not both). Tempest needs a small splash against air units (maybe reduce range vs air to 10 or so?) but at the moment it gets picked off far too easily by air units. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
On September 09 2012 07:15 FortMonty wrote: I still feel that people are putting too much of a label on mech and saying that mech's core must be tanks and it must be slow and positional. Sorry, but I don't remember reading in the rule book that mech was necessarily supposed to be this way, it just happened to be this way. If you ask me, I think the warhound should get 2 more nerfs to help it be more balanced, maybe 3. My first opinion, it should be changed from 2 supply to 3 supply, this is an absolute must, it's just too strong regardless to be only 2 supply and it shadows the marauder. Second, it should be light, not armored, this way, it would still hold an advantage over tanks and immortals, however, it would fall faster to marines, helions, pheonix, reapers, and so on and so forth. This could actually solve a lot of problems. Last, I think it should have it's health reduced from 220 to around 150-170, this way it won't have an enormous advantage in health and shouldn't be seriously hard to deal with over all. Granted these are just changes proposed by a layman, I think they would serve to keep the Warhound at it's original purpose of breaking tank lines and being viable in TvP, but wouldn't drastically over power an opponent. Thoughts? Well, it's not just an arbitrary designation. It's differentiating mech from bio, otherwise the strategic choices are meaningless and contribute to no gameplay diversity. If you make a game where Speed, Range, and Strength all trade off with eachother, you ruin balance by making something have everything. Hellions are mech, and they're fast, but they're weak, because they have to be. Mech could just as easily be the numerous yet weak variety, while bio the few but strong, but you don't want both sides to be the same. Edit: I agree with your balance suggestions. Very reasonable, and gives reason to build Tanks. | ||
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InoyouS2
1005 Posts
On September 09 2012 07:15 FortMonty wrote: I still feel that people are putting too much of a label on mech and saying that mech's core must be tanks and it must be slow and positional. Sorry, but I don't remember reading in the rule book that mech was necessarily supposed to be this way, it just happened to be this way. If you ask me, I think the warhound should get 2 more nerfs to help it be more balanced, maybe 3. My first opinion, it should be changed from 2 supply to 3 supply, this is an absolute must, it's just too strong regardless to be only 2 supply and it shadows the marauder. Second, it should be light, not armored, this way, it would still hold an advantage over tanks and immortals, however, it would fall faster to marines, helions, pheonix, reapers, and so on and so forth. This could actually solve a lot of problems. Last, I think it should have it's health reduced from 220 to around 150-170, this way it won't have an enormous advantage in health and shouldn't be seriously hard to deal with over all. Granted these are just changes proposed by a layman, I think they would serve to keep the Warhound at it's original purpose of breaking tank lines and being viable in TvP, but wouldn't drastically over power an opponent. Thoughts? The armour idea is interesting, although the battle hellion is still light armour for tanking shots from siege lines. Also the warhound just looks like it has a lot of armour, it wouldn't seem right for it to be light armoured. I main balance concern is the speed, it's ridiculously fast, and add to that the damage, it's just a bigger and better marauder (doesn't even need to stim). HP and supply nerfs are a given, damage as well I feel. The core unit to mech is and always has been the tank, this unit should have been implemented with the sole purpose of PROTECTING the siege tanks, not making them worthless. Siege tank damage should be buffed, then you can either do a deathball style play as Terran that isn't too fragile whilst still being able to go bio play and pick apart your opponent with flanks and harass. | ||
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FortMonty
United States63 Posts
On September 09 2012 07:20 Cloak wrote: Well, it's not just an arbitrary designation. It's differentiating mech from bio, otherwise the strategic choices are meaningless and contribute to no gameplay diversity. If you make a game where Speed, Range, and Strength all trade off with eachother, you ruin balance by making something have everything. Hellions are mech, and they're fast, but they're weak, because they have to be. Mech could just as easily be the numerous yet weak variety, while bio the few but strong, but you don't want both sides to be the same. Yes, but the problem is people dislike the warhound because it doesn't follow the suit of say Siege Tanks or Thors because it doesn't serve the same basic function. Barring out that it is simply OP at the present moment, I would say it can be categorized with the Helions, banshee's and such mobile mech units. The problem is that people place the Tank as the core unit for mech, I personally play relatively tankless when I go mech, that's just how I like to play it, now that Blizzard has added a unit that strays off from that position play (Which mind you only exists because of the tank) people are saying it's poor design choice when in reality it's the tank that differs from every other mech unit. Helions are mobile and good for harass, Thors are essentially an A move unit, Banshee's are good added DPS while also being decent harass, and Viking rule the air, really there's nothing stopping this army from being an A move army, EXCEPT the tank. So now that they've introduced a mobile unit that could compliment this army, the tank is becoming less and less used in favor of mobility. Although I would argue that the tank is still the best option in TvZ and it can still be Decent in TvP and TvT, it's just not the star of the show anymore in TvT and now that battle helions and Warhounds have eliminated it's main threats, it's free to be utilized in TvP. Again, just a laymans perspective, but I think with changes to the Warhound that I suggested or possibly something better to balance out the equation, Warhounds would be a nice way to implement tanks safely into TvP and would possibly remove some of the spotlight from tanks in TvT. | ||
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Laneir
United States1160 Posts
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Bippzy
United States1466 Posts
Describing the warhound as conceptually not allowed to be a unit because it does not fit as into the concept of "mech" is an impossible argument and it's clear the developer's don't have this mindset, otherwise the warhound wouldn't exist yet. So, while I love to hear complaints on the warhound(sarcasm), that's the least of the reasoning that should ever be put against it. Edit: The warhound in eearly TvZ is basically a stalker that micros back with it's range and takes potshots. Otherwise, what I want to say about this patch is a warning. Looking at how stale WOL can get if you watch the same matchup too much, I realize all the things lost. Void ray speed? etc etc the one thing I hope Blizzard can do with HOTS is balance the game but at the same time maintain a large amount of diversity into the gameplay. It's the only thing that WOL's missing in my eyes. | ||
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
On September 09 2012 05:42 ChoDing wrote: double post but mech isnt immobile, if you know how to use them correctly they CAN be the fastest and most annoying mofos outhere learn2play bw kthxbye perhaps in your D league mech can be fast, where mech is nothing but vultures? LOOOOL | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
Mothership core is a bit underwhelming now too. In fact, everything about protoss is underwhelming. I facepalm nearly everytime I'm watching beta PvT in hots so far. | ||
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
On September 09 2012 07:54 RavenLoud wrote: Get the goddamn carriers back in the game and buff the tempest. I simply cannot comprehend the minds of a sane mind that would replace the carrier with the tempest. You'd think that the super advanced protoss fleet will look at their overwhelming carrier fleets and go "hum...this sucks, let's replace it with a spoon killing artillery ship. It feels way more badass yo to kill something 5x slower but 2x further" Mothership core is a bit underwhelming now too. In fact, everything about protoss is underwhelming. I facepalm nearly everytime I'm watching beta PvT in hots so far. Uhm. What you just described is the mindset of every major military force for the last two hundred years. Tanks didn't make Brood War. A combination of tanks, vultures, goliaths and mines made BW mech. We're got most of those unit types. Tanks are in game. Vultures are hellions in a roundabout way. Goliaths can easily be vikings/warhounds. Now we just need the mines to work and BW mech becomes a reality in SC2. BW mech has been wrongly portrayed as an invincible positional spread of doom, blocking off entire avenues of attack. If this was true, how the hell did anyone ever win against it? It was never like that. Every game I ever saw of BW mech turned out more or less the same way as every marine tank game I've ever seen - the tanks whittle down numbers, the buffer does damage as the tanks whittle the numbers down. The only major difference is that mines made it so cost ineffective to go down certain pathways. What is missing isn't awesome tanks. It's mines. The Widow Mine is the key to making an awesome mech playstyle work. | ||
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FortMonty
United States63 Posts
On September 09 2012 07:39 Bippzy wrote: I'm just gonna go ahead and throw it out there. Describing the warhound as conceptually not allowed to be a unit because it does not fit as into the concept of "mech" is an impossible argument and it's clear the developer's don't have this mindset, otherwise the warhound wouldn't exist yet. So, while I love to hear complaints on the warhound(sarcasm), that's the least of the reasoning that should ever be put against it. Edit: The warhound in eearly TvZ is basically a stalker that micros back with it's range and takes potshots. Otherwise, what I want to say about this patch is a warning. Looking at how stale WOL can get if you watch the same matchup too much, I realize all the things lost. Void ray speed? etc etc the one thing I hope Blizzard can do with HOTS is balance the game but at the same time maintain a large amount of diversity into the gameplay. It's the only thing that WOL's missing in my eyes. I agree with the comment on the Warhounds speed, and I agree with this post as well. There's no sense in classifying an entire tech path based on what the current metagame for it is or the traditional way it was played. The main point I agree with in this post is the comment on how stale the gameplay has become in WOL. To me, it's lost all surprise, and really the match-ups in general seem like they can be predicted rather easily. Most TvT on the professional level are marine tank vs marine tank, and while this can be entertaining to watch, it gets rather dull as the game goes on and the match-up continues this course, it doesn't help that this very same composition is extremely optimal in TvZ as well and is also the standard for that matchup as well. Although the difference is that it alters near the end game when you want to switch to marauder productions for Ultralisks and tanks become less viable regardless due to broodlords, which in my opinion becomes even more of a concern with the introduction of the swarm hosts. TvP is another relatively predictable match up where it's always safe to assume that the opponent is going to go bio centric which makes me happy that with the introduction fot he warhound and the Battle Helion, this will open a bit more diversity in this match up. TvZ can actually be very interesting due to mech being highly optimal as well with Raven Transitions being viable as well, So for the most part, I'd say TvZ is Terran's most diverse match up in terms of strategy and composition, where as in TvT if you do mech it's more to gain the element of surprise on your opponent and never really goes past the tank war part of it. So I think the Warhound abd battlehelion being introduced will add a bit more depth to TvT rather than just simple positioning, in the end people call TvT like a chess match, but in my opinion it's more like trench warfare, vast stretches of boredom follow by brief moments of sheer terror. | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On September 09 2012 07:55 Evangelist wrote: Uhm. What you just described is the mindset of every major military force for the last two hundred years. No, the mindset was to make shit that not only shoot further but also blow up stuff bigger and faster and to merge everything coherently. Replacing the carrier with the tempest is like getting rid of all the AKs and submachine guns and only use bolt actioned sniper rifles instead. EDIT: Basically, there will always be a room for big accurate long range stuff i.e. tempests, but it's just stupid lore wise and gameplay wise to replace the extremely solid and overwhelming brute force that should compose the beef off the army aka carriers. | ||
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Smigi
United States328 Posts
On September 09 2012 05:42 ChoDing wrote: double post but mech isnt immobile, if you know how to use them correctly they CAN be the fastest and most annoying mofos outhere learn2play bw kthxbye No need to be immature with your quick little snarky comments at the end. I've played BW for a very long time, and a lot of us have, so do not assume. Mech is mobile? Hmmm, let me see. If you mech army consists of JUST vultures, then indeed yes. But what about tanks? You think you can just torpedo walk your tanks from one side of the map to the other and just siege them up? No, you will be caught out of position and you will die a horrible death. Obviously the harassment of vultures/hellions and their maneuverability was/is not immobile, but when the actual units that win you battles come into play, mech was the most immobile unit composition in the game. You can't sit there and say that you were bouncing from base to base all over the map with Siege Tanks and Goliaths, don't be silly. | ||
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
Remove immortals, give stalkers weird pathing and longer range. Remove swarm host, insert lurker. Game will be about 128% more awesome with these changes. | ||
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Channel Pressure
United States62 Posts
But there seems to be a bit of amnesia here with some of the doom-forecasting. Remember Flux Vanes? Remember Void Ray's original damage? Werent roaches like, 1 supply 2 armour, and lower cost than they are now? Remember when A nexus wasnt 1000/1500 or whatever it is now? Remember this is a beta. Bliz has a good record of tweaking the game until it works right. Before you toss out HoTs (some of you who refuse to buy the game) remember what SC2 looked like in its early days. As an aside, more than balancing the Warhound, they really need to redesign how it looks. Its painfully ugly, and looks markedly different really than any unit in the game, in a bad way. | ||
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