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I don't know what the manual says so I'm only commenting based on the game.
I actually thought it was a retcon until recently, but now that I've gone back through the campaign, the WoL information from Tassadar actually seems like it might fit in with a lot of the SC and Broodwar happenings. It's easy to see how it could be considered a retcon, hence why I'm wondering if maybe SC just didn't do a good enough job at preparing us for what we learn in WoL. I know that the overmind said a lot of stuff which is now false since WoL, but if we just ignore what was said for a minute, and focus on what Kerrigan, the overmind and the cerebrates did to try and become "perfect"... then I'm not sure if it adds up.
Well, when we meet the overmind he talks a lot about how she will be the greatest weapon against her enemies, and sure enough she is quite effective at killing the Protoss. Only she wasn't ATTACKING the protoss, she was just responding to the protoss killing Zazs. If The overmind had intended Kerrigan to attack the protoss enemies, why would he send Kerrigan to Shakuras rather than Auir where she could do the most damage?
And then there is the second overmind... I'm not totally sure, but I never actually saw anything on Char that might be a Xel'Naga temple, or a Khadarin crystal, or holy ground or anything else which may be used as an ingredient in creating the perfect race. And then you have to ask yourself why the second overmind had picked Char as the location to regrow, rather than Auir where they were allegedly trying to become perfect. And if Auir was the final stepping stone to perfection, then how does it make sense for the overmind to leave cerbrates behind? The Zerg were winning quite convincingly at the time, and they apparantly didn't even need their full army to do so, so Auir would have been a much better place to regrow than Char.
And then we find out about Duran who was apparantly Kerrigans enemy the whole time, not on friendly terms with the Protoss and he also happens to be growing an army of hybrid monsters.
So... I don't honestly know what to think of all of this. Does what Tassadar said about the overmind kind of make sense in the context of SC and BW?
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Kerrigan stayed on Char, not Shakuras, to hunt dark templar, I believe.
The Zerg relocated to Char, so that was their "homeworld" during broodwar. Second overmind spawned their, because it was where most of their forces were. A bunch of cerebrates merged to form the new overmind, so no temple required. And there was one of the two protoss crystals nearby.
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On October 16 2010 23:48 igotmyown wrote:
Second overmind spawned their, because it was where most of their forces were.
Didn't they get the memo? The protoss were the key to the perfection that the entire Zerg race were working towards. Why not stay with the overmind and ensure victory?
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On October 16 2010 23:54 Billy_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2010 23:48 igotmyown wrote:
Second overmind spawned their, because it was where most of their forces were. Didn't they get the memo? The protoss were the key to the perfection that the entire Zerg race were working towards. Why not stay with the overmind and ensure victory?
From what i gathered the overmind knew it was going to die, and it created kerrigan as the key to stop the hybrids and keep the zerg swarm alive.
Same with tassadar and his "Ive never tasted death, nor will i ever" quote
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United States22883 Posts
I just looked at the SC manual, and it doesn't not make sense .It doesn't have to be retconned when you're working with "prophecy" that may or may not have to come true. It's just non-descript, 2 bit story telling then. The Overmind deals with the Xel'Naga, sets its sights on the Protoss, and then predicts the hybrids will end life (why?) and makes Kerrigan to combat them. There's 0 indication that it could see the future or that the Xel'Naga knew about the hybrids (the Overmind gains their knowledge) but it's not necessarily retconned because everything is within the realm of possibility, it's just extremely cheesy and ends up coming off like the movie 2012.
They'll probably just come out and say there's some other race the Xel'Naga were originally competing with which is why they wanted new controllable minions in the first place, and then reveal that the competing group is behind Duran and the hybrids (if Duran is even in the story anymore.)
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Also the larva world of char is perfect for spawning zerg with all the excess thermal energy, and if all the zerg forces moved to Auir then the protoss might have pulled some stunt and wiped them all out like they did on shakuras.
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On October 17 2010 01:23 Jibba wrote:
I just looked at the SC manual, and it doesn't not make sense .It doesn't have to be retconned when you're working with "prophecy" that may or may not have to come true. It's just non-descript, 2 bit story telling then. The Overmind deals with the Xel'Naga, sets its sights on the Protoss, and then predicts the hybrids will end life (why?) and makes Kerrigan to combat them. There's 0 indication that it could see the future or that the Xel'Naga knew about the hybrids (the Overmind gains their knowledge) but it's not necessarily retconned because everything is within the realm of possibility, it's just extremely cheesy and ends up coming off like the movie 2012.
They'll probably just come out and say there's some other race the Xel'Naga were originally competing with which is why they wanted new controllable minions in the first place, and then reveal that the competing group is behind Duran and the hybrids (if Duran is even in the story anymore.)
Okay, thanks Jibba. I don't know if it's bad story telling yet though, that kind of depends on what happens next.
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http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Voice
im guessing the dark voice was added later in the mythos as a character representation of the xelnega that survives to this time, so that blizz didn't have to add a complete race for the xelnega who are supposed to be long destroyed, or as some kind of uber enemy of the xelnega who reappears ("biding their time"), which is just bad story telling.
by having him as a manipulator, you get to keep the sanctity and established history of all the races, while still being able to introduce a new storyline and guide the story to a certain point.
so yes, by all sights I would agree it sounds like retcon, but the way blizz wrote it in doesn't really change the events of the history.
its just a shame that SC2's missions weren't written and produced, or with the same clarity, as the 'ethereal' tone of SCBW. i think many people would have understood it alot better (myself included) if that were the case.
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http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Voice
im guessing the dark voice was added later in the mythos as a character representation of the xelnega that survives to this time, so that blizz didn't have to add a complete race for the xelnega who are supposed to be long destroyed, or as some kind of uber enemy of the xelnega who reappears ("biding their time"), which is just bad story telling.
by having him as a manipulator, you get to keep the sanctity and established history of all the races, while still being able to introduce a new storyline and guide the story to a certain point.
so yes, by all sights I would agree it sounds like retcon, but the way blizz wrote it in doesn't really change the events of the history.
its just a shame that SC2's missions weren't written and produced, or with the same clarity, as the 'ethereal' tone of SCBW. i
To be honest I think that the SC2 story would kind of suffer if Blizzard try to explain in too much detail. The writing Kerrigans Shakuras schemes of BW, and Mengsks manipulation of Tychus were not very coherent at all. If the contrast between SCI to BW and WoL proves anything, it's that Blizzard thrives on simplicity, so I just want them to just keep that up, it's what they do best.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
sheesh Billy_ you really love the storyline eh? 
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On October 17 2010 12:32 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:sheesh Billy_ you really love the storyline eh?
Sorry. I'm trying to hold back, really.
Original SC was great, but everything after that was slightly disappointing but still good in my opinion.
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On October 17 2010 01:22 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2010 23:54 Billy_ wrote:On October 16 2010 23:48 igotmyown wrote:
Second overmind spawned their, because it was where most of their forces were. Didn't they get the memo? The protoss were the key to the perfection that the entire Zerg race were working towards. Why not stay with the overmind and ensure victory? From what i gathered the overmind knew it was going to die, and it created kerrigan as the key to stop the hybrids and keep the zerg swarm alive. Same with tassadar and his "Ive never tasted death, nor will i ever" quote
Actually, the zerg were originally intended to be a race like any other by the Xel'Naga so that in time they could naturally merge with the protoss as was intended. They created the Overmind to direct the race in some way but the Dark Voice tampered with the zerg somehow and the zerg (including the Overmind) were given an overwriting directive to kill everything. Especially the protoss. The overmind knew this but had no way of fighting back against it so it created Kerrigan, who it saw as the saviour of the zerg race as a whole because she wouldn't possess the allconsuming need to kill.
Just my two cents, and I might be wrong.
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United States22883 Posts
"When the xel'naga began uplifting the zerg, they created the Overmind to control and direct the hive mind, so as to try and avoid the "failure" with the protoss. But the Overmind was not given free will. It was given an overriding directive to obliterate the protoss. The Dark Voice had a hand in this.[2][3]"
That's completely contrary to what's in the SC1 manual. It says the Xel'Naga created the Overmind to maintain central control over the Zerg (to avoid the fragmentation that occurred within the Protoss) but the Overmind does essentially gain free will over time (Skynet-style, I think) and obliterating the Protoss isn't one of its initial goals. Its goal was simply to spread and it soon realized interspace travel was necessary to its goal. At the same time, it noticed the Xel'Naga monitoring it from orbit, therefore it severed their psychic link and then sent its new air units to destroy their ship. After eliminating the Xel'Naga ship, it absorbed their knowledge (not sure how) and thus became aware of the Protoss.
It then understood that the Protoss were a threat because they had gained control of psionic energies that were extremely powerful. It then found out about humans, who were only several generations away from understanding psi energy and wanted to assimilate them in order to combat the Protoss. If anything from the SC1 manual, Infested Kerrigan was created primarily as a weapon against the Protoss.
If anything, the Dark Voice seems retconned in.
EDIT: Here, I found part of it online.
+ Show Spoiler +The Fall of the Xel'Naga
The pride in their achievements proved to be
the fatal downfall of the Xel’Naga. The
Overmind, while slowly expanding itself into
the void of space, became aware of the mighty
Xel’Naga world-ships hovering ominously
above the skies of Zerus. The Xel’Naga, having
kept a constant watch on the Overmind, were
horrified to find that it had actually severed their
psychic link, effectively hiding itself from their
view. With its need to consume driving its
minions into a lustful frenzy, the Overmind
launched the now space-faring Zerg swarms at
the unsuspecting Xel’Naga. The ancient race did
what they could to stem the tide of the everadvancing
Zerg onslaught, but in the end their
efforts were in vain. Wave after wave of Zerg
swarms hammered the reinforced hulls of the
Xel’Naga’s ships with no signs of abatement.
Within only a few hours the Zerg overran the
defenses of their creators and laid waste to the
Xel’Naga fleet.
As the greater whole of the Xel’Naga race was
consumed by the raging, genetic whirlwind of
the Zerg, the Overmind gained the knowledge
and insights of its masters. The Overmind
processed thousands of sentient beings into
itself, causing it to grow far more powerful than
it had ever imagined. It learned the secrets of
the sacred Khaydarin Crystals, and began to
incorporate the energies of these Crystals into
its own. Through the intimate knowledge
of evolution and proto-genetic physiology
gained from the Xel’Naga, the Overmind
was able to increase the level of sentience
in many of the higher Zerg strains, while
still keeping them fully under its control.
Through dissecting the memories of the
Xel’Naga, the Overmind was made aware
of the myriad races that had at one time
or another been influenced by the ancient
race. The Xel’Naga had kept a detailed
genetic history of each race, giving the
Overmind a clear understanding of their
respective strengths and weaknesses.
Most importantly, the Overmind learned
of an exceedingly powerful race that lived
near the galaxy’s fringe known only as
the Protoss. The Overmind knew then that
the Protoss and the Zerg would eventually
be caught in an inevitable, apocalyptic
conflict.
The Dark Voice isn't mentioned anywhere until WoL (we don't know who Duran works for) and it seems to me like the Overmind's goal is driven more by evolution than any evil will.
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That's completely contrary to what's in the SC1 manual. It says the Xel'Naga created the Overmind to maintain central control over the Zerg (to avoid the fragmentation that occurred within the Protoss) but the Overmind does essentially gain free will over time (Skynet-style, I think) and obliterating the Protoss isn't one of its initial goals. Its goal was simply to spread and it soon realized interspace travel was necessary to its goal. At the same time, it noticed the Xel'Naga monitoring it from orbit, therefore it severed their psychic link and then sent its new air units to destroy their ship. After eliminating the Xel'Naga ship, it absorbed their knowledge (not sure how) and thus became aware of the Protoss.
They are trying to say it was the Dark Voice who interfered with the Overmind, made it aware of the xel'nega, caused it to attack and kill them. Like I said before, the way blizzard wrote it in, it allows the Dark Voice to exist in the history without actually changing the history. Call it bad writing if you want
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This is perhaps a bit meta-fictional, but if i remember correctly, some of the earlier model files refered to Hybrids as (possible HoS spoilers?) + Show Spoiler +Xel'naga Ravagers/Destroyers
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Personally, I think it was a construct of the new writers for SC2, so yeah, retconned, however I don't think the overmind was ever really supposed to be the big evil bad guy of the Starcraft universe. In that sense his new backstory does make sense. It had to be retconned to make Kerrigan the big hero though, which we all know is retarded.
But yes, the key, as mentioned, is they keep giving him free will and taking it away again. I never got the impression the overmind was just some robot the evil xel naga programmed until they straight out said it.
...I always did kind of get this warm fuzzy fathering feeling when the overmind talked in the SC1 campaign though. Seemed like a nice guy except for all the murder and destruction. Wonder if that was intentional.
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What? Blizzard would -never- retcon something. Don't be absurd. They plan this shit years in advance, just ask WoW players about the Burning Legion, Demons, and the Draenei---- oh, right.
Carry on!
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United States22883 Posts
On October 18 2010 06:22 Vortok wrote:What? Blizzard would -never- retcon something. Don't be absurd. They plan this shit years in advance, just ask WoW players about the Burning Legion, Demons, and the Draenei---- oh, right. Carry on!
Yeah, we know Metzen is terrible.
I don't think the all consuming Overmind was "evil" either. It had a singular goal like all other beings at the evolutionary level and although it gained presence of mind, it was still working to secure that goal. It's just like the Borg.
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On October 18 2010 03:27 Jibba wrote:"When the xel'naga began uplifting the zerg, they created the Overmind to control and direct the hive mind, so as to try and avoid the "failure" with the protoss. But the Overmind was not given free will. It was given an overriding directive to obliterate the protoss. The Dark Voice had a hand in this.[2][3]" That's completely contrary to what's in the SC1 manual. It says the Xel'Naga created the Overmind to maintain central control over the Zerg (to avoid the fragmentation that occurred within the Protoss) but the Overmind does essentially gain free will over time (Skynet-style, I think) and obliterating the Protoss isn't one of its initial goals. Its goal was simply to spread and it soon realized interspace travel was necessary to its goal. At the same time, it noticed the Xel'Naga monitoring it from orbit, therefore it severed their psychic link and then sent its new air units to destroy their ship. After eliminating the Xel'Naga ship, it absorbed their knowledge (not sure how) and thus became aware of the Protoss. It then understood that the Protoss were a threat because they had gained control of psionic energies that were extremely powerful. It then found out about humans, who were only several generations away from understanding psi energy and wanted to assimilate them in order to combat the Protoss. If anything from the SC1 manual, Infested Kerrigan was created primarily as a weapon against the Protoss. If anything, the Dark Voice seems retconned in. EDIT: Here, I found part of it online. + Show Spoiler +The Fall of the Xel'Naga
The pride in their achievements proved to be
the fatal downfall of the Xel’Naga. The
Overmind, while slowly expanding itself into
the void of space, became aware of the mighty
Xel’Naga world-ships hovering ominously
above the skies of Zerus. The Xel’Naga, having
kept a constant watch on the Overmind, were
horrified to find that it had actually severed their
psychic link, effectively hiding itself from their
view. With its need to consume driving its
minions into a lustful frenzy, the Overmind
launched the now space-faring Zerg swarms at
the unsuspecting Xel’Naga. The ancient race did
what they could to stem the tide of the everadvancing
Zerg onslaught, but in the end their
efforts were in vain. Wave after wave of Zerg
swarms hammered the reinforced hulls of the
Xel’Naga’s ships with no signs of abatement.
Within only a few hours the Zerg overran the
defenses of their creators and laid waste to the
Xel’Naga fleet.
As the greater whole of the Xel’Naga race was
consumed by the raging, genetic whirlwind of
the Zerg, the Overmind gained the knowledge
and insights of its masters. The Overmind
processed thousands of sentient beings into
itself, causing it to grow far more powerful than
it had ever imagined. It learned the secrets of
the sacred Khaydarin Crystals, and began to
incorporate the energies of these Crystals into
its own. Through the intimate knowledge
of evolution and proto-genetic physiology
gained from the Xel’Naga, the Overmind
was able to increase the level of sentience
in many of the higher Zerg strains, while
still keeping them fully under its control.
Through dissecting the memories of the
Xel’Naga, the Overmind was made aware
of the myriad races that had at one time
or another been influenced by the ancient
race. The Xel’Naga had kept a detailed
genetic history of each race, giving the
Overmind a clear understanding of their
respective strengths and weaknesses.
Most importantly, the Overmind learned
of an exceedingly powerful race that lived
near the galaxy’s fringe known only as
the Protoss. The Overmind knew then that
the Protoss and the Zerg would eventually
be caught in an inevitable, apocalyptic
conflict. (we don't know who Duran works for) and it seems to me like the Overmind's goal is driven more by evolution than any evil will.
This is false. It seems to me like a lot of this discussion is coming about completely ignorant of all cannon outside of SC, BW, and WOL. The dark voice was brought up multiple times in the dark templar trilogy, and the most recent comic series that I can't remember the name of right now was based entirely around explaining and setting up the Voice as an existing character in the world pre-WOL.
I don't feel like it's a retcon at all, as that term implies going into past lore and removing/changing existing events. Really all Blizzard did was add in the Voice to the Overmind's development, but it doesn't by any means invalidate any previous cannon.
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On October 18 2010 06:50 im a roc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2010 03:27 Jibba wrote:"When the xel'naga began uplifting the zerg, they created the Overmind to control and direct the hive mind, so as to try and avoid the "failure" with the protoss. But the Overmind was not given free will. It was given an overriding directive to obliterate the protoss. The Dark Voice had a hand in this.[2][3]" That's completely contrary to what's in the SC1 manual. It says the Xel'Naga created the Overmind to maintain central control over the Zerg (to avoid the fragmentation that occurred within the Protoss) but the Overmind does essentially gain free will over time (Skynet-style, I think) and obliterating the Protoss isn't one of its initial goals. Its goal was simply to spread and it soon realized interspace travel was necessary to its goal. At the same time, it noticed the Xel'Naga monitoring it from orbit, therefore it severed their psychic link and then sent its new air units to destroy their ship. After eliminating the Xel'Naga ship, it absorbed their knowledge (not sure how) and thus became aware of the Protoss. It then understood that the Protoss were a threat because they had gained control of psionic energies that were extremely powerful. It then found out about humans, who were only several generations away from understanding psi energy and wanted to assimilate them in order to combat the Protoss. If anything from the SC1 manual, Infested Kerrigan was created primarily as a weapon against the Protoss. If anything, the Dark Voice seems retconned in. EDIT: Here, I found part of it online. + Show Spoiler +The Fall of the Xel'Naga
The pride in their achievements proved to be
the fatal downfall of the Xel’Naga. The
Overmind, while slowly expanding itself into
the void of space, became aware of the mighty
Xel’Naga world-ships hovering ominously
above the skies of Zerus. The Xel’Naga, having
kept a constant watch on the Overmind, were
horrified to find that it had actually severed their
psychic link, effectively hiding itself from their
view. With its need to consume driving its
minions into a lustful frenzy, the Overmind
launched the now space-faring Zerg swarms at
the unsuspecting Xel’Naga. The ancient race did
what they could to stem the tide of the everadvancing
Zerg onslaught, but in the end their
efforts were in vain. Wave after wave of Zerg
swarms hammered the reinforced hulls of the
Xel’Naga’s ships with no signs of abatement.
Within only a few hours the Zerg overran the
defenses of their creators and laid waste to the
Xel’Naga fleet.
As the greater whole of the Xel’Naga race was
consumed by the raging, genetic whirlwind of
the Zerg, the Overmind gained the knowledge
and insights of its masters. The Overmind
processed thousands of sentient beings into
itself, causing it to grow far more powerful than
it had ever imagined. It learned the secrets of
the sacred Khaydarin Crystals, and began to
incorporate the energies of these Crystals into
its own. Through the intimate knowledge
of evolution and proto-genetic physiology
gained from the Xel’Naga, the Overmind
was able to increase the level of sentience
in many of the higher Zerg strains, while
still keeping them fully under its control.
Through dissecting the memories of the
Xel’Naga, the Overmind was made aware
of the myriad races that had at one time
or another been influenced by the ancient
race. The Xel’Naga had kept a detailed
genetic history of each race, giving the
Overmind a clear understanding of their
respective strengths and weaknesses.
Most importantly, the Overmind learned
of an exceedingly powerful race that lived
near the galaxy’s fringe known only as
the Protoss. The Overmind knew then that
the Protoss and the Zerg would eventually
be caught in an inevitable, apocalyptic
conflict. (we don't know who Duran works for) and it seems to me like the Overmind's goal is driven more by evolution than any evil will. This is false. It seems to me like a lot of this discussion is coming about completely ignorant of all cannon outside of SC, BW, and WOL. The dark voice was brought up multiple times in the dark templar trilogy, and the most recent comic series that I can't remember the name of right now was based entirely around explaining and setting up the Voice as an existing character in the world pre-WOL. I don't feel like it's a retcon at all, as that term implies going into past lore and removing/changing existing events. Really all Blizzard did was add in the Voice to the Overmind's development, but it doesn't by any means invalidate any previous cannon.
It's not a retcon, it's just poor development of the Overmind as a character.
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EPT
