TL Fitness Initiative (Weight Loss/Gain) - Page 95
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Ichigo1234551
United States649 Posts
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decafchicken
United States20022 Posts
On November 04 2009 12:20 Ichigo1234551 wrote: damn yo casein protein is so nasty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Milk has all the casein protein you need iirc...just have a glass or two before bed so it can do its thing while you sleep. First day back lifting today in ~4 weeks. Prob gonna start 3-4 times a week. Felt so weak in the gym today. Started off at 225 and ended up at 275 for squats (what i used to start at) Also did some dead lifts at 185-225, then calves and core. I'm going to be so stupidly sore tomorrow its going to suck. oh well, i love being sore. and getting stronger. can't wait to get back into teh swing of things. | ||
eshlow
United States5210 Posts
On November 04 2009 11:56 unknown.sam wrote: just curious, what does your rehab program look like?? Well, first, a rehab program should be geared towards your specific ailment.. so yeah. :p Since I have something akin to Osgood Schlatters, I'm focused on quad activation work, quad & hammy strengthening/stretching, negatives such as walking down stairs, and some light leg extensions. Light jogging seems to be ok for now. Sprinting is a little too rough on it. I may be able to deadlift soon again we'll see. | ||
AoN.DimSum
United States2983 Posts
On November 04 2009 12:37 decafchicken wrote: Milk has all the casein protein you need iirc...just have a glass or two before bed so it can do its thing while you sleep. First day back lifting today in ~4 weeks. Prob gonna start 3-4 times a week. Felt so weak in the gym today. Started off at 225 and ended up at 275 for squats (what i used to start at) Also did some dead lifts at 185-225, then calves and core. I'm going to be so stupidly sore tomorrow its going to suck. oh well, i love being sore. and getting stronger. can't wait to get back into teh swing of things. You deadlift and squat on the same day? O_o Don't you want to split it up? | ||
eshlow
United States5210 Posts
On November 04 2009 12:37 decafchicken wrote: Milk has all the casein protein you need iirc...just have a glass or two before bed so it can do its thing while you sleep. First day back lifting today in ~4 weeks. Prob gonna start 3-4 times a week. Felt so weak in the gym today. Started off at 225 and ended up at 275 for squats (what i used to start at) Also did some dead lifts at 185-225, then calves and core. I'm going to be so stupidly sore tomorrow its going to suck. oh well, i love being sore. and getting stronger. can't wait to get back into teh swing of things. SS has squat and DL on the same day..... but they're separated to squats at the beginning 3x5 and DL at the end 1x5. But yeah.. one right after the other isn't good IMO. DL should be up higher than your squat as well which tells me either you're not going low enough on squats, or your technique sucks for DL.. could be both. Usually the former though. | ||
jfazz
Australia672 Posts
Just back from the gym (protein shake in hand, don't worry) - despite eating less and avoiding carbs entirely, even though im 2kg lighter so far, i went UP on reps and weights during my gym session today. SUPER. | ||
Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
I can't even do that many pushups anymore. Chinups are non-existent. I don't think I'm fully recovered enough to even go into anything too serious in the first place. And by serious I mean snatches, deadlifts and squats with heavy weights. So instead of going that route, I've decided to really strengthen my "core" and get into SOME sort of shape to prepare myself for the real training. I found an interesting new training program called "Insanity Workout", and I think it's just the thing to help me strengthen my abs and hips. I think I'll be able to trim 10lb of fat with this program in its allotted 60 days span. Now, admittedly, it's not an easy program. Not by a long shot. It's supposedly tougher than PX90. But this requires no weights. I've also considered doing yoga for the very first time in my life to help with my flexibility and stress. I'll give you guys my review of it once I'm finished. And my stats before, after and during. | ||
eshlow
United States5210 Posts
On November 04 2009 16:32 Warrior Madness wrote: Guys, I've had an injury for a long time now (For about 10 months), and I've gained a lot of fat over that short period of time. Literally went from being active (Probably 1-2 hours of strenuous activity a day) to being utterly inactive. I went from 10% BF to 23%.... I can't even do that many pushups anymore. Chinups are non-existent. I don't think I'm fully recovered enough to even go into anything too serious in the first place. And by serious I mean snatches, deadlifts and squats with heavy weights. So instead of going that route, I've decided to really strengthen my "core" and get into SOME sort of shape to prepare myself for the real training. I found an interesting new training program called "Insanity Workout", and I think it's just the thing to help me strengthen my abs and hips. I think I'll be able to trim 10lb of fat with this program in its allotted 60 days span. Now, admittedly, it's not an easy program. Not by a long shot. It's supposedly tougher than PX90. But this requires no weights. + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J1fJv-S3BY I've also considered doing yoga for the very first time in my life to help with my flexibility and stress. I'll give you guys my review of it once I'm finished. And my stats before, after and during. Here's my advice: Get your injury resolved. Then consider working out. If you can work around your injury WHILE you are getting it treated that works. But seriously... get it fixed. | ||
unknown.sam
Philippines2701 Posts
so basically i've been stuck at a certain weight for a while now. any tips?? are there any alternatives to 3x5 like maybe 15 singles or 8x2 or 5x3?? thanks in advance | ||
Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
On November 04 2009 03:09 Sfydjklm wrote: Most smith machines offset 40 pounds, so it'd be more like 170 pounds. unless he actually included that in his number ofc:D I am unable to understand what "offset 40 pounds" means? I's it simply that you normally lift that much more using a smith machine? If so I don't recognize that at all out of my own experience. The smith machine bar at my gym is 7 KG and the normal bar is 10 KG. These are the only numbers I include in my calculations. Using the smith machine i put on 35 KG. (2x15 + 2x2.5) and that's very heavy for me even if it's supposed to be only 42 KG. But using the normal bench and bar I put on 2 x 20 and it's not as heavy even. | ||
Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
On November 04 2009 21:20 Patriot.dlk wrote: I am unable to understand what "offset 40 pounds" means? I's it simply that you normally lift that much more using a smith machine? If so I don't recognize that at all out of my own experience. The smith machine bar at my gym is 7 KG and the normal bar is 10 KG. These are the only numbers I include in my calculations. Using the smith machine i put on 35 KG. (2x15 + 2x2.5) and that's very heavy for me even if it's supposed to be only 42 KG. But using the normal bench and bar I put on 2 x 20 and it's not as heavy even. Um it means that the smith bar has some weight + it goes up and down smoother than a normal bar so using a smith isn't as heavy as a barbell. Then your experience is wrong because it's common physics. Yeah the smith bar is usually 15 pounds or 7 kg. But the normal barbell is usually 20 kg, the 10 kg bar is used by women mostly. | ||
eshlow
United States5210 Posts
On November 04 2009 17:41 unknown.sam wrote: i've absolutely hit a wall with my pull ups. things were going smoothly as i was able to increase in weight each time until the last 4-5 workouts. my increments went from 2.5lbs--->2lbs--->0.5lbs since they've gotten so much harder to do T_T. so basically i've been stuck at a certain weight for a while now. any tips?? are there any alternatives to 3x5 like maybe 15 singles or 8x2 or 5x3?? thanks in advance Yup, if you can't make the jump focus on increasing by a rep each set for a while. Then try to make the jump later. | ||
madnessman
United States1581 Posts
The best article I've found so far (why is it so hard to find the original study online?!) is this one: Effects of Moderate-Intensity Endurance and High-Intensity Intermittent Training on Anaerobic Capacity and VO2 Max + Show Spoiler + My Comments First and foremost, there’s no doubt that while the steady state group only improved VO2 max, it did not improve anaerobic capacity; this is no shock based on the training effect to be expected. And while the Tabata protocol certainly improved both, not only did the Tabata group still end up with a lower VO2 at the end of the study, they only made progress for 3 weeks before plateauing on VO2 max and 4 weeks for anaerobic capacity. Interestingly, the running coach Arthur Lydiard made this observation half a century ago; after months of base training, he found that only 3 weeks of interval work were necessary to sharpen his athletes. More than that was neither necessary nor desirable. Other studies using cycling have found similar results: intervals improve certain parameters of athletic performance for about 3 weeks or 6 sessions and then they stop having any further benefit. I’ve asked this question before but for all of the ‘All interval all the time’ folks, if intervals stop working after 3-4 weeks, what are people supposed to do for the other 48-49 weeks of the year. Should they keep busting their nuts with supra-maximal interval training for no meaningful results? On that note, it’s worth mentioning that the Tabata group actually did a single steady state workout per week. Is it at all possible that this contributed to the overall training effect (given that 70% VO2 max training improved VO2 max in the steady state only group)? Does anybody else find it weird that the Tabata promoters ignore the fact that the Tabata group was doing steady state work too? It’s also relevant to note that the study used a bike for training. This is important and here’s why: on a stationary bike, when you start to get exhausted and fall apart from fatigue, the worst that happens is that you stop pedalling. You don’t fall off, you don’t get hurt, nothing bad happens. The folks suggesting high skill movements for a ‘Tabata’ workout might want to consider that. Because when form goes bad on cleans near the end of the ‘Tabata’ workout, some really bad things can happen. Things that don’t happen on a stationary bike. As well, I want to make a related comment: as you can see above the protocol used was VERY specific. The interval group used 170% of VO2 max for the high intensity bits and the wattage was increased by a specific amount when the workout was completed. Let me put this into real world perspective. My VO2 max occurs somewhere between 300-330watts on my power bike, I can usually handle that for repeat sets of 3 minutes and maybe 1 all out-set of 5-8 minutes if I’m willing to really suffer. That’s how hard it is, it’s a maximal effort across that time span. For a proper Tabata workout, 170% of that wattage would be 510 watts (for perspective, Tour De France cyclists may maintain 400 watts for an hour). This is an absolutely grueling workload. I suspect that most reading this, unless they are a trained cyclist, couldn’t turn the pedals at that wattage, that’s how much resistance there is. If you don’t believe me, find someone with a bike with a powermeter and see how much effort it takes to generate that kind of power output. Now do it for 20 seconds. Now repeat that 8 times with a 10 second break. You might learn something about what a Tabata workout actually is. My point is that to get the benefits of the Tabata protocol, the workload has to be that supra-maximal for it to be effective. Doing thrusters or KB swings or front squats with 65 lbs fo 20 seconds doesn’t generate nearly the workload that was used during the actual study. Nor will it generate the benefits (which I’d note again stop accruing after a mere 3 weeks). You can call them Tabatas all you want but they assuredly aren’t. Finally, I’d note that, as I discussed in Predictors of Endurance Performance VO2 max is only one of many components of overall performance, and it’s not even the most important one. Of more relevance here, VO2 max and aerobic endurance are not at all synonymous, many people confuse the two because they don’t understand the difference between aerobic power (VO2 max) and aerobic capacity (determined primarily by enzyme activity and mitochondrial density within the muscle). Other studies have shown clearly that interval work and steady state work generate different results in this regards, intervals improve VO2 max but can actually decrease aerobic enzyme activity (citrate synthase) within skeletal muscle. The basic point being that even if the Tabata group improved VO2 max and anaerobic capacity to a greater degree than the steady state group, those are not the only parameters of relevance for overall performance. Summing Up First, here’s what I’m not saying. I’m not anti-interval training, I’m not anti-high intensity training. I am anti-this stupid-assed idea that the only type of training anyone should ever do is interval training, based on people’s mis-understanding and mis-extrapolation of papers like this. High-intensity interval training and the Tabata protocol specifically are one tool in the toolbox but anybody proclaiming that intervals can do everything that anyone ever needs to do is cracked. That’s on top of the fact that 99% of people who claim to be doing ‘Tabatas’ aren’t doing anything of the sort. Because 8 sets of 20″ hard/10″ easy is NOT the Tabata protocol and body-weight stuff or the other stuff that is often suggested simply cannot achieve the workload of 170% VO2 max that this study used. It may be challenging and such but the Tabata protocol it ain’t. | ||
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
Did a pyramid of burpees with a jump, started with 1, then 2, 3, .... up to 10 then back down to 1 and between sets for a "break" I did a deadhang from a bar. then moved on to the next set by the time i was done i looked like i had been swimming underwater | ||
madnessman
United States1581 Posts
On November 05 2009 03:49 travis wrote: I did one of the cooler conditioning workouts I have done today. Did a pyramid of burpees with a jump, started with 1, then 2, 3, .... up to 10 then back down to 1 and between sets for a "break" I did a deadhang from a bar. then moved on to the next set by the time i was done i looked like i had been swimming underwater I know what you mean. I did something kind of similar a week or two ago. Pick 10 exercises and do a pyramid (1 rep of all 10 exercises, 2 reps of all 10 exercises, etc). Burpees (with pushups) and shoulder presses were the two killer exercises. | ||
decafchicken
United States20022 Posts
On November 04 2009 13:28 eshlow wrote: SS has squat and DL on the same day..... but they're separated to squats at the beginning 3x5 and DL at the end 1x5. But yeah.. one right after the other isn't good IMO. DL should be up higher than your squat as well which tells me either you're not going low enough on squats, or your technique sucks for DL.. could be both. Usually the former though. I'll be sure to split them up in the future. Probably gonna do a 4 day split so i guess i'll have 2 lower body days one w/ squats one w/ DL. Also they were russian dead lifts not just dead lifts which would probably help explain the difference in weight. And i have great squat form thank you very much :-p(i watch myself go to parallel in the mirror) Need a lifting plan for a 4 day split, any help? I'll be doing squats/dead lifts/bench/bent over rows, not really sure much beyond that. And how bad is drinking on days you lift? Like is it even worth it to lift if you plan to get drunk later that day? | ||
eshlow
United States5210 Posts
On November 05 2009 03:38 madnessman wrote: So... I've been doing a lot of research on the tabata protocol. There are a lot of misconceptions about it. The best article I've found so far (why is it so hard to find the original study online?!) is this one: Effects of Moderate-Intensity Endurance and High-Intensity Intermittent Training on Anaerobic Capacity and VO2 Max + Show Spoiler + My Comments First and foremost, there’s no doubt that while the steady state group only improved VO2 max, it did not improve anaerobic capacity; this is no shock based on the training effect to be expected. And while the Tabata protocol certainly improved both, not only did the Tabata group still end up with a lower VO2 at the end of the study, they only made progress for 3 weeks before plateauing on VO2 max and 4 weeks for anaerobic capacity. Interestingly, the running coach Arthur Lydiard made this observation half a century ago; after months of base training, he found that only 3 weeks of interval work were necessary to sharpen his athletes. More than that was neither necessary nor desirable. Other studies using cycling have found similar results: intervals improve certain parameters of athletic performance for about 3 weeks or 6 sessions and then they stop having any further benefit. I’ve asked this question before but for all of the ‘All interval all the time’ folks, if intervals stop working after 3-4 weeks, what are people supposed to do for the other 48-49 weeks of the year. Should they keep busting their nuts with supra-maximal interval training for no meaningful results? On that note, it’s worth mentioning that the Tabata group actually did a single steady state workout per week. Is it at all possible that this contributed to the overall training effect (given that 70% VO2 max training improved VO2 max in the steady state only group)? Does anybody else find it weird that the Tabata promoters ignore the fact that the Tabata group was doing steady state work too? It’s also relevant to note that the study used a bike for training. This is important and here’s why: on a stationary bike, when you start to get exhausted and fall apart from fatigue, the worst that happens is that you stop pedalling. You don’t fall off, you don’t get hurt, nothing bad happens. The folks suggesting high skill movements for a ‘Tabata’ workout might want to consider that. Because when form goes bad on cleans near the end of the ‘Tabata’ workout, some really bad things can happen. Things that don’t happen on a stationary bike. As well, I want to make a related comment: as you can see above the protocol used was VERY specific. The interval group used 170% of VO2 max for the high intensity bits and the wattage was increased by a specific amount when the workout was completed. Let me put this into real world perspective. My VO2 max occurs somewhere between 300-330watts on my power bike, I can usually handle that for repeat sets of 3 minutes and maybe 1 all out-set of 5-8 minutes if I’m willing to really suffer. That’s how hard it is, it’s a maximal effort across that time span. For a proper Tabata workout, 170% of that wattage would be 510 watts (for perspective, Tour De France cyclists may maintain 400 watts for an hour). This is an absolutely grueling workload. I suspect that most reading this, unless they are a trained cyclist, couldn’t turn the pedals at that wattage, that’s how much resistance there is. If you don’t believe me, find someone with a bike with a powermeter and see how much effort it takes to generate that kind of power output. Now do it for 20 seconds. Now repeat that 8 times with a 10 second break. You might learn something about what a Tabata workout actually is. My point is that to get the benefits of the Tabata protocol, the workload has to be that supra-maximal for it to be effective. Doing thrusters or KB swings or front squats with 65 lbs fo 20 seconds doesn’t generate nearly the workload that was used during the actual study. Nor will it generate the benefits (which I’d note again stop accruing after a mere 3 weeks). You can call them Tabatas all you want but they assuredly aren’t. Finally, I’d note that, as I discussed in Predictors of Endurance Performance VO2 max is only one of many components of overall performance, and it’s not even the most important one. Of more relevance here, VO2 max and aerobic endurance are not at all synonymous, many people confuse the two because they don’t understand the difference between aerobic power (VO2 max) and aerobic capacity (determined primarily by enzyme activity and mitochondrial density within the muscle). Other studies have shown clearly that interval work and steady state work generate different results in this regards, intervals improve VO2 max but can actually decrease aerobic enzyme activity (citrate synthase) within skeletal muscle. The basic point being that even if the Tabata group improved VO2 max and anaerobic capacity to a greater degree than the steady state group, those are not the only parameters of relevance for overall performance. Summing Up First, here’s what I’m not saying. I’m not anti-interval training, I’m not anti-high intensity training. I am anti-this stupid-assed idea that the only type of training anyone should ever do is interval training, based on people’s mis-understanding and mis-extrapolation of papers like this. High-intensity interval training and the Tabata protocol specifically are one tool in the toolbox but anybody proclaiming that intervals can do everything that anyone ever needs to do is cracked. That’s on top of the fact that 99% of people who claim to be doing ‘Tabatas’ aren’t doing anything of the sort. Because 8 sets of 20″ hard/10″ easy is NOT the Tabata protocol and body-weight stuff or the other stuff that is often suggested simply cannot achieve the workload of 170% VO2 max that this study used. It may be challenging and such but the Tabata protocol it ain’t. original study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=8897392&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_DocSum There's not really misconceptions about it. Just misapplication. On November 05 2009 11:01 decafchicken wrote: I'll be sure to split them up in the future. Probably gonna do a 4 day split so i guess i'll have 2 lower body days one w/ squats one w/ DL. Also they were russian dead lifts not just dead lifts which would probably help explain the difference in weight. And i have great squat form thank you very much :-p(i watch myself go to parallel in the mirror) Need a lifting plan for a 4 day split, any help? I'll be doing squats/dead lifts/bench/bent over rows, not really sure much beyond that. And how bad is drinking on days you lift? Like is it even worth it to lift if you plan to get drunk later that day? Same day is fine if volume is low. If your squat/DL aren't > 1.5-2x bw and bench > 1.25/1.5x bw I'd stick with linear progression SS... don't need to go to splits. At intermediate level if you're still looking for more strength/mass go with texas method, wendler's 5/3/1, or bill starr's 5x5 intermediate. Yes, getting drunk kills your gains. Depends on individual.. there's no real estimation. I wouldn't NOT workout just because you're getting drunk... it's worse if you drink without working out. | ||
decafchicken
United States20022 Posts
I guess i'll google the workouts you just listed and see what comes up ^_^ | ||
madnessman
United States1581 Posts
On November 05 2009 13:33 eshlow wrote: original study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=8897392&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_DocSum There's not really misconceptions about it. Just misapplication. Same day is fine if volume is low. If your squat/DL aren't > 1.5-2x bw and bench > 1.25/1.5x bw I'd stick with linear progression SS... don't need to go to splits. At intermediate level if you're still looking for more strength/mass go with texas method, wendler's 5/3/1, or bill starr's 5x5 intermediate. Yes, getting drunk kills your gains. Depends on individual.. there's no real estimation. I wouldn't NOT workout just because you're getting drunk... it's worse if you drink without working out. I've already found that page. It's just an abstract. I'm trying to find the full article. | ||
eshlow
United States5210 Posts
I'll be out of town until Sunday though so keep up the workouts without me guys. :p | ||
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