What you're missing is that many runners hardly do any strength work at all. I dunno which runners you are referring to but deadlifts won't really help a runner that much, running on the other hand will. Sprinters will do more explosive strength work and it will of course help them but with longer distances, more muscle will probably work against you.
I am not missing anything.
Most endurance runners suck BECAUSE they don't do strength training and speed work.
First cycle – 21 days Training sessions: 35 Strength/power work: 10 = 28.6% Physical preparation: 2 = 5.8% Aerobic work (intervals + longer runs): 23 = 65.7%
A relatively huge proportion of strength/power work at 28.6% considering what your average runner does which is 0%.
Second cycle – 21 days Training sessions: 37 Strength/power work: 6 = 16.2% Race pace (intervals): 5 = 13.5% Aerobic work (fast pace + recovery): 70.2%
Still a significant amount of strength/power work + intervals. Aerobic work is up to 70% which is to be expected of a distance runner in 1500m and 5000m.
Third cycle – 21 days Training sessions: 38 Race pace + speed work (intervals): 8 = 21.1% Warming up + aerobic (recovery + fast pace): 30 = 78.9%
No strength/power, but increased work with speed and intervals to improve race ability. Still a significant margin at 21%.
As you can see, there is a significant amount (15-30%) of the work he does is strength/power work that he does in competition and prep cycles focused on endurance. Intervals are also power biased running if you didn't know, so I would count that as speed/power work as well.
Show that strength training increases stride length which returns faster times (or rather in this case, decreased the amount of decrease in stride length as fatigue set in). Deadlift is a VERY good way to increase mass specific force which returns longer strides which translates to faster time.
So the conclusion is if you want to be a crappy endurance runner you will not do any strength/power work and no speed/interval work. They would be taking the 'conventional' advaice and just run a lot... which doesn't help that much. Sounds like a lot of people, eh? If you want to be good you have to integrate it all into a cohesive training regime.
I mean come on dude, it's not like I am stating everything I say in this thread with no support. I have reasoning and studies for everything I have stated in here even if I don't put them in my posts. If you want me to support my points that's fine... just say so. But I would be wary of calling anything I am saying straight up wrong.....
My 4 big interests are in overall strength training weightlifting/oly/power/bodyweight, gymnastics, parkour, and track and field. So I know a heck of a lot about these.
When did I ever say something you said was "straight up wrong"? I said you are missing out on the fact that alot of runners don't do much strength training, it's not really secret although I think more are doing it nowadays than 10 years ago.
I stand corrected, good study.
btw: 1500 m men's finals Athens 2004. Man those guys run fast as hell yet do it so gracefully it's amazing. What speed do they run at exactly in 1500 m?
Well, the good runners do a fair amount of strength training. 15-30% doesn't really seem like a lot until you consider that they're doing 2 a days so it's actually ~3-5 sessions a week of strength/power work. I would say that's a considerable amount more than people expected...
The runners who don't do any strength/power work are just stunting their own abilities and not living up to their potential. For recreational runners who cares right? For someone looking to be competitive it's their loss.
Well, the WR for 1500m is around 3:27 IIRC.. so they're covering 1500m in about 210 seconds which means that's about 7.1 m/s or about 14s for every 100m. Considering that the average person runs 100m in about 15s at their maximum ability.. well you get the point.
Also, something to note is that there is no heel-toe running. Ever. Heel toe running is terrible for your joints and not conducive to good athletic performance.
Plus, I love how relaxed their faces are, and how their running is graceful like you said. That's the running economy built up from the aerobic training. Any muscle that doesn't contribute is relaxed.
Racers generally train in a cycle designed to reach peak performance at a specific point in time. Endurance folks will do plenty of strength work. They especially do it early in the cycle and spend the rest of the time conditioning and perfecting their technique to complement their muscle mass.
It's all carefully crafted. The amateur enthusiast should just stick with the workout about 2/3 of a way through the workout cycle of professional. This is where a the professional is primarily working on conditioning and tone and before the professional starts to taper down and minimize workout induced wear and tear. By experience you'll probably see 20% high intensity intervals with 80% aerobic intervals.
Also endurance athletes that want to maintain consistent good performance should NOT train like professional racers do.
On October 31 2009 01:46 Foucault wrote: btw: 1500 m men's finals Athens 2004. Man those guys run fast as hell yet do it so gracefully it's amazing. What speed do they run at exactly in 1500 m?
If you look at the racing strategy all of them are going for negative splits. The pace for the first half (800m) is nearly constant ~1:00 per 400m. This is a 4 minute mile pace. After that they really start to push the pace and sprint. For the third 400m it was just under 53 seconds. For the last 300, the leader went 40 seconds or on pace for 53 seconds if normalized to 400 m.
That's your racing strategy right there. The negative split really dramatic for the races that are 2:00 - 4:00 minutes in length.
how important is it that they start near the centre lane of the track / push their way into the centre lane ? so they have less distance to cover? i think in racing cars where you start is determined by your bo3 pre-race record
On October 31 2009 08:31 biomedical wrote: how important is it that they start near the centre lane of the track / push their way into the centre lane ? so they have less distance to cover? i think in racing cars where you start is determined by your bo3 pre-race record
In my experience, it does not matter very much. That's called a waterfall start and a start that requires you to stay in your own lane for at least the first 100m is called a stagger. The waterfall starts can be kinda nasty with pushing and bumping and elbows since the people on the outside will sometimes cut in hard and cut people off. But in the end it's pretty fair. People might have preferences. Runners who don't like starting fast might prefer the outside because a slow start from the inside guarantees being trapped. Runners who plan to start fast enough to take the lead might prefer the inside, but it's not especially difficult to do it from the outside.
On October 31 2009 02:01 eshlow wrote: Well, the good runners do a fair amount of strength training. 15-30% doesn't really seem like a lot until you consider that they're doing 2 a days so it's actually ~3-5 sessions a week of strength/power work. I would say that's a considerable amount more than people expected...
The runners who don't do any strength/power work are just stunting their own abilities and not living up to their potential. For recreational runners who cares right? For someone looking to be competitive it's their loss.
Well, the WR for 1500m is around 3:27 IIRC.. so they're covering 1500m in about 210 seconds which means that's about 7.1 m/s or about 14s for every 100m. Considering that the average person runs 100m in about 15s at their maximum ability.. well you get the point.
Also, something to note is that there is no heel-toe running. Ever. Heel toe running is terrible for your joints and not conducive to good athletic performance.
Plus, I love how relaxed their faces are, and how their running is graceful like you said. That's the running economy built up from the aerobic training. Any muscle that doesn't contribute is relaxed.
I actually do this heel-toe thing when I'm out running, and just about every time I finish up with a really sore/stiff neck. Think it's related? And if you'd be so kind, what is good running form?
On October 31 2009 12:40 Disregard wrote: Wut?? But anyway Im 6'0 and 200LBs, gotta lose about 20+ more
i might not be right in saying this but...
NO MAN !!!!! dont cut the weight. you can utilise that energy in your workouts. when people train muscles they EAT LIKE A PIG to provide their body with energy (like i'm having to). YOU already have this AWESOME advantage!!! FAT PEOPLE ARE GREAT!!!! just get to the gym!!!!! (only thing u have to do is make sure ur eating protein). once you're muscular you can think about cutting weight - overwise you're gonna kick yourself in the future for wasting time!!!
On October 31 2009 02:01 eshlow wrote: Well, the good runners do a fair amount of strength training. 15-30% doesn't really seem like a lot until you consider that they're doing 2 a days so it's actually ~3-5 sessions a week of strength/power work. I would say that's a considerable amount more than people expected...
The runners who don't do any strength/power work are just stunting their own abilities and not living up to their potential. For recreational runners who cares right? For someone looking to be competitive it's their loss.
Well, the WR for 1500m is around 3:27 IIRC.. so they're covering 1500m in about 210 seconds which means that's about 7.1 m/s or about 14s for every 100m. Considering that the average person runs 100m in about 15s at their maximum ability.. well you get the point.
Also, something to note is that there is no heel-toe running. Ever. Heel toe running is terrible for your joints and not conducive to good athletic performance.
Plus, I love how relaxed their faces are, and how their running is graceful like you said. That's the running economy built up from the aerobic training. Any muscle that doesn't contribute is relaxed.
I actually do this heel-toe thing when I'm out running, and just about every time I finish up with a really sore/stiff neck. Think it's related? And if you'd be so kind, what is good running form?
Sprinting you get some forefoot strikers. But most do mid-foot strike. Just watch any of the videos.
Some running techniques like POSE or CHI running attempt to teach. These are fine if you want to do that.
My preference for learning how to run correctly is barefoot in the grass... you cannot run heel-toe if you try barefoot because it will jack you up. Learning proper sprinting form would go a long way as well as it teaches you to correctly drive the knee, receive the ground, and have the foot "pull" the ground underneath you.
heel to toe is bad. it'll lead to injuries. olympic runners scare me. they look so relaxed and graceful that you think it's just a fast jog until you see their splits. oh and i hate staggered starts. i'm a swimmer. i'm used to having my own lane the entire race.
First cycle – 21 days Training sessions: 35 Strength/power work: 10 = 28.6% Physical preparation: 2 = 5.8% Aerobic work (intervals + longer runs): 23 = 65.7%
A relatively huge proportion of strength/power work at 28.6% considering what your average runner does which is 0%.
Second cycle – 21 days Training sessions: 37 Strength/power work: 6 = 16.2% Race pace (intervals): 5 = 13.5% Aerobic work (fast pace + recovery): 70.2%
Still a significant amount of strength/power work + intervals. Aerobic work is up to 70% which is to be expected of a distance runner in 1500m and 5000m.
Third cycle – 21 days Training sessions: 38 Race pace + speed work (intervals): 8 = 21.1% Warming up + aerobic (recovery + fast pace): 30 = 78.9%
No strength/power, but increased work with speed and intervals to improve race ability. Still a significant margin at 21%.
Does anybody know where I can get a detailed program for running like that? I really want to improve my running. I suck at x-country. I was the second last guy in the final race (4.6k of hills) and I'm a senior. It's really frustrating. I used to be above average in 8th grade (6 minutes flat mile) but now I'm below average. Anyway my goal is to get down to a 9:30 2.4k by December. I have no idea what my time is right now but it's probably pretty bad...
First cycle – 21 days Training sessions: 35 Strength/power work: 10 = 28.6% Physical preparation: 2 = 5.8% Aerobic work (intervals + longer runs): 23 = 65.7%
A relatively huge proportion of strength/power work at 28.6% considering what your average runner does which is 0%.
Second cycle – 21 days Training sessions: 37 Strength/power work: 6 = 16.2% Race pace (intervals): 5 = 13.5% Aerobic work (fast pace + recovery): 70.2%
Still a significant amount of strength/power work + intervals. Aerobic work is up to 70% which is to be expected of a distance runner in 1500m and 5000m.
Third cycle – 21 days Training sessions: 38 Race pace + speed work (intervals): 8 = 21.1% Warming up + aerobic (recovery + fast pace): 30 = 78.9%
No strength/power, but increased work with speed and intervals to improve race ability. Still a significant margin at 21%.
Does anybody know where I can get a detailed program for running like that? I really want to improve my running. I suck at x-country. I was the second last guy in the final race (4.6k of hills) and I'm a senior. It's really frustrating. I used to be above average in 8th grade (6 minutes flat mile) but now I'm below average. Anyway my goal is to get down to a 9:30 2.4k by December. I have no idea what my time is right now but it's probably pretty bad...
EDIT: double post. sorry.
Anything the elite are using.. you should not use.
It all depends on your current abilities though... but if you really have the dedication and time to put into a program you can become good.
Most of what you should be focusing on is tempo work coupled with speed work + lifting to raise your max speed and sustain it over long periods of time.
well, i guess ill set a goal for myself. Well two of em. I wanna break a 5 minute mile as well as 11 minute 1.5 mile(navy seal standard). I currently run an 7 minute mile and my running routine consists of 0.8mile 8 minute warm ups and cooldowns 4 times a week and a 2 mile run twice a week. Which adds up to 10.4 miles a week. What would be the realistic timeframe for accomplishing the goal with such a routine?
I guess i'll also start adding numbers for exercises i throw down starting today, maybe u can suggest some weight goals i should be aiming at(i never penis measured my lifts so i don't know what's good or not). I weight 170 pounds. Squat 205 pounds x5 Stiff legged Dead lift 185 x6 Leg press 270x5
Not doing singles. Finding a spotter is always a pain.
On November 01 2009 03:02 Sfydjklm wrote: well, i guess ill set a goal for myself. Well two of em. I wanna break a 5 minute mile as well as 11 minute 1.5 mile(navy seal standard). I currently run an 7 minute mile and my running routine consists of 0.8mile 8 minute warm ups and cooldowns 4 times a week and a 2 mile run twice a week. Which adds up to 10.4 miles a week. What would be the realistic timeframe for accomplishing the goal with such a routine?
I guess i'll also start adding numbers for exercises i throw down starting today, maybe u can suggest some weight goals i should be aiming at(i never penis measured my lifts so i don't know what's good or not). I weight 170 pounds. Squat 205 pounds x5 Stiff legged Dead lift 185 x6 Leg press 270x5
Not doing singles. Finding a spotter is always a pain.
You squat 205 but only 270 on leg press? Maybe it's me who's weird but I can do more than twice the weight I squat.
On November 01 2009 03:02 Sfydjklm wrote: well, i guess ill set a goal for myself. Well two of em. I wanna break a 5 minute mile as well as 11 minute 1.5 mile(navy seal standard). I currently run an 7 minute mile and my running routine consists of 0.8mile 8 minute warm ups and cooldowns 4 times a week and a 2 mile run twice a week. Which adds up to 10.4 miles a week. What would be the realistic timeframe for accomplishing the goal with such a routine?
I guess i'll also start adding numbers for exercises i throw down starting today, maybe u can suggest some weight goals i should be aiming at(i never penis measured my lifts so i don't know what's good or not). I weight 170 pounds. Squat 205 pounds x5 Stiff legged Dead lift 185 x6 Leg press 270x5
Not doing singles. Finding a spotter is always a pain.
You squat 205 but only 270 on leg press? Maybe it's me who's weird but I can do more than twice the weight I squat.
very possible, i just started going on leg press recently, just a relatively new exercise for me.
On November 01 2009 03:02 Sfydjklm wrote: well, i guess ill set a goal for myself. Well two of em. I wanna break a 5 minute mile as well as 11 minute 1.5 mile(navy seal standard). I currently run an 7 minute mile and my running routine consists of 0.8mile 8 minute warm ups and cooldowns 4 times a week and a 2 mile run twice a week. Which adds up to 10.4 miles a week. What would be the realistic timeframe for accomplishing the goal with such a routine?
I guess i'll also start adding numbers for exercises i throw down starting today, maybe u can suggest some weight goals i should be aiming at(i never penis measured my lifts so i don't know what's good or not). I weight 170 pounds. Squat 205 pounds x5 Stiff legged Dead lift 185 x6 Leg press 270x5
Not doing singles. Finding a spotter is always a pain.
You squat 205 but only 270 on leg press? Maybe it's me who's weird but I can do more than twice the weight I squat.
very possible, i just started going on leg press recently, just a relatively new exercise for me.
im not sure of the athletic carry over from leg press, i dont think its useful
EPT
). I currently run an 7 minute mile and my running routine consists of 0.8mile 8 minute warm ups and cooldowns 4 times a week and a 2 mile run twice a week. Which adds up to 10.4 miles a week. What would be the realistic timeframe for accomplishing the goal with such a routine?
