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On March 07 2025 01:48 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2025 01:10 WombaT wrote:
There’s disrespect as pantomime, banter, or even earnestly in the heat of the moment and there’s whatever this is.
Bringing it back to say StarCraft, I’m here for a bit of trash talk, a bit of tongue-in-cheek balance whine. It can add some spice, some friction. If everyone just behaved like, idk Avilo or something all the time, where it’s very earnest, very entitled and delusional whine, then nah that kinda sucks.
It’s fucking constant and it genuinely fucking sucks.
I escape the worst of it this country, being a hipster (actually just never having Sky Sports) and supporting Inter for 20 years. On the odd occasion we do make it far in Europe and draw an English side, it’s good craic, least with my associates. Shit will be talked during a match, there’ll be a ‘fair play youse has us tonight’ or perhaps a ‘youse got lucky, youse won’t next time’, sometimes a ‘fuck well you knocked us out you better beat our [insert hated rivals] next time out!’
If I’m grabbing a match and a beer with a mate and it’s 2 hours of moaning about the ref after, fuck that. Boring.
You can be passionate without being partisan, but partisanship is a huge part of the emotional pull. But you can still be partisan while being a good sport too. People moaning about refs bores the hell out of me too, i just don't see a way to stop it from happening. Then again, when Forest were at the bottom of the table and everything was going against us I had a good moan about the refs too. I guess sometimes it matters more.
There is moaning and then there is attacking refs verbally/ physically, sending death threats and waiting in the parking lot. Big difference
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Norway28733 Posts
Bodø-glimt with the 3-0 against Olympiakos - a team which only conceded 3 goals from the entire EL group stage! (Also only 16 conceded in 25 games in the greek league).
So, extremely likely to reach the quarter finals, where they'll also almost certainly face Lazio. That's gonna be tough but everything is possible!
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On March 07 2025 17:26 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2025 01:48 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 07 2025 01:10 WombaT wrote:
There’s disrespect as pantomime, banter, or even earnestly in the heat of the moment and there’s whatever this is.
Bringing it back to say StarCraft, I’m here for a bit of trash talk, a bit of tongue-in-cheek balance whine. It can add some spice, some friction. If everyone just behaved like, idk Avilo or something all the time, where it’s very earnest, very entitled and delusional whine, then nah that kinda sucks.
It’s fucking constant and it genuinely fucking sucks.
I escape the worst of it this country, being a hipster (actually just never having Sky Sports) and supporting Inter for 20 years. On the odd occasion we do make it far in Europe and draw an English side, it’s good craic, least with my associates. Shit will be talked during a match, there’ll be a ‘fair play youse has us tonight’ or perhaps a ‘youse got lucky, youse won’t next time’, sometimes a ‘fuck well you knocked us out you better beat our [insert hated rivals] next time out!’
If I’m grabbing a match and a beer with a mate and it’s 2 hours of moaning about the ref after, fuck that. Boring.
You can be passionate without being partisan, but partisanship is a huge part of the emotional pull. But you can still be partisan while being a good sport too. People moaning about refs bores the hell out of me too, i just don't see a way to stop it from happening. Then again, when Forest were at the bottom of the table and everything was going against us I had a good moan about the refs too. I guess sometimes it matters more. There is moaning and then there is attacking refs verbally/ physically, sending death threats and waiting in the parking lot. Big difference
There's a big difference, of course, but lack of respect for the ref and their decisions is the cause of both.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On March 07 2025 17:45 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Bodø-glimt with the 3-0 against Olympiakos - a team which only conceded 3 goals from the entire EL group stage! (Also only 16 conceded in 25 games in the greek league).
So, extremely likely to reach the quarter finals, where they'll also almost certainly face Lazio. That's gonna be tough but everything is possible!
Up the Bodo!
Also in notable results I think this match week, Rangers beating Mourinho’s Fenerbahce 3-1 away, hopefully they can bring that one home. They’ve been pretty ropey domestically, but Rangers have been pretty good in Europe for a while now.
Spurs and United on the other hand, both were pretty meh last night
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United States10268 Posts
Ref bashing is going to happen in any sport where the refs have a direct influence on the game. I do think it's going too far at this point, but at the same time, refs also need to be help accountable for really shitty decisions they make. I think the heightened aggression against refs atm is really stemming from the lack of transparency and accountability that refs have at the moment. Michael Oliver has been atrocious, but there's not been a peep about him needing to sit out for a month and review footage to improve his skills. Instead, the first thing PGMOL came out with was "omg please stop attacking and harassing our ref!" Which is fine, protect your refs, but also, what's going to change when he can't even see a blatant red card that's right in front of him after Mateta almost got his head taken off. How Oliver still gets to ref European matches is also stupid. Think fans really just want to see some transparency, and refs owning up to their mistakes more. The whole PGMOL segment where Webb goes up to talk about ref decisions from handpicked segments to make the refs look better and to pat themselves on the back is also a spit in the face of the fans as well. No one wants to hear the shit about the obviously right decisions, we want to hear the audio and decision making process behind the controversial 50/50s, or where a ref definitely got it wrong.
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On March 08 2025 02:09 FlaShFTW wrote:
Ref bashing is going to happen in any sport where the refs have a direct influence on the game. I do think it's going too far at this point, but at the same time, refs also need to be help accountable for really shitty decisions they make. I think the heightened aggression against refs atm is really stemming from the lack of transparency and accountability that refs have at the moment. Michael Oliver has been atrocious, but there's not been a peep about him needing to sit out for a month and review footage to improve his skills. Instead, the first thing PGMOL came out with was "omg please stop attacking and harassing our ref!" Which is fine, protect your refs, but also, what's going to change when he can't even see a blatant red card that's right in front of him after Mateta almost got his head taken off. How Oliver still gets to ref European matches is also stupid. Think fans really just want to see some transparency, and refs owning up to their mistakes more. The whole PGMOL segment where Webb goes up to talk about ref decisions from handpicked segments to make the refs look better and to pat themselves on the back is also a spit in the face of the fans as well. No one wants to hear the shit about the obviously right decisions, we want to hear the audio and decision making process behind the controversial 50/50s, or where a ref definitely got it wrong.
They need a bigger pool of high level refs and they need to rotate them in and out more.
They are just like players, they have form and make alot of mistakes, because its a fast sport with split second decision making.
I don't think refs get a fair deal from fans, far from it, but the PGMOL seems to just always make it worse. These guys are expected to do one or two games a week and ALWAYS perform consistently and make very few mistakes. 3 game changing mistakes in a row and they get absolutely buttfucked in the media.
Just sub them out, next guy in, no shame, no big announcement, nothing.
You're in bad form, get on the bench, go be a 4th official and take some shit off managers for a couple of weeks.
Instead they make a massive deal about protecting the refs which only brings more attention and then if they do have to rest them they make another huge deal about that too.
It doesn't help that they are so dishonest with how they talk about it. Webb should be perfectly well allowed to say "Yeah he's in bad form so we're resting him". Instead they pretend like refs are infallible and then act all offended when people expect them to be right all the time.
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United States10268 Posts
On March 08 2025 03:15 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2025 02:09 FlaShFTW wrote:
Ref bashing is going to happen in any sport where the refs have a direct influence on the game. I do think it's going too far at this point, but at the same time, refs also need to be help accountable for really shitty decisions they make. I think the heightened aggression against refs atm is really stemming from the lack of transparency and accountability that refs have at the moment. Michael Oliver has been atrocious, but there's not been a peep about him needing to sit out for a month and review footage to improve his skills. Instead, the first thing PGMOL came out with was "omg please stop attacking and harassing our ref!" Which is fine, protect your refs, but also, what's going to change when he can't even see a blatant red card that's right in front of him after Mateta almost got his head taken off. How Oliver still gets to ref European matches is also stupid. Think fans really just want to see some transparency, and refs owning up to their mistakes more. The whole PGMOL segment where Webb goes up to talk about ref decisions from handpicked segments to make the refs look better and to pat themselves on the back is also a spit in the face of the fans as well. No one wants to hear the shit about the obviously right decisions, we want to hear the audio and decision making process behind the controversial 50/50s, or where a ref definitely got it wrong. They need a bigger pool of high level refs and they need to rotate them in and out more. They are just like players, they have form and make alot of mistakes, because its a fast sport with split second decision making. I don't think refs get a fair deal from fans, far from it, but the PGMOL seems to just always make it worse. These guys are expected to do one or two games a week and ALWAYS perform consistently and make very few mistakes. 3 game changing mistakes in a row and they get absolutely buttfucked in the media. Just sub them out, next guy in, no shame, no big announcement, nothing. You're in bad form, get on the bench, go be a 4th official and take some shit off managers for a couple of weeks. Instead they make a massive deal about protecting the refs which only brings more attention and then if they do have to rest them they make another huge deal about that too. It doesn't help that they are so dishonest with how they talk about it. Webb should be perfectly well allowed to say "Yeah he's in bad form so we're resting him". Instead they pretend like refs are infallible and then act all offended when people expect them to be right all the time.
I agree with rotating them more heavily. The problem is the pool is too small right now so that's just not possible. BUT, you could hire and designate an independent VAR team which would then make the referee pool bigger since they don't need to have referees on VAR anymore. Plus, the added benefit is that the newly designated VAR team would be independent from PGMOL and the referees, so they can look at the plays and make decisions more fairly rather than from a position of bias, as we've seen referees try to protect each other. Plus, the independent VAR team could be from/double up as an independent investigation committee rather than PGMOL continuing to do the typical "we investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing."
I think a lot of people have been calling for this for a very long time, but naturally PGMOL likely will never do it because they want control.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
I agree with some reforms and tweaks, thing is top referees already got the vast majority of calls right. Technical committees determined this increased yet further with VAR in various leagues.
Doesn’t stop the moaning, the constant, constant moaning.
I agree with trying to improve processes, I think the fundamental problem is that you could have time-travelling androids from a future society where billions were devoted to making the perfect infallible referee and people would still moan!
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United States10268 Posts
On March 08 2025 08:38 WombaT wrote:
I agree with some reforms and tweaks, thing is top referees already got the vast majority of calls right. Technical committees determined this increased yet further with VAR in various leagues.
Doesn’t stop the moaning, the constant, constant moaning.
I agree with trying to improve processes, I think the fundamental problem is that you could have time-travelling androids from a future society where billions were devoted to making the perfect infallible referee and people would still moan!
If a player misses an easy chance they should be putting away, or makes a dumbass mistake that concedes a goal (hi Alisson and VVD today), then they get absolutely roasted for it by pundits and fans. If refs do the equivalent and blow a call, like a stonewall pen that isn't given, or foul that happens in a lead up to a goal, a missed yellow/red, then yeah, they should get roasted for that too, and they should improve. A pro footballer completes an average of 85% of their passes give or take. Doesn't mean there isn't room to improve and take accountability for their errors.
At least with a cyborg perfect ref, they aren't influenced by anyone. You at least know their reffing is unbiased.
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On March 09 2025 07:28 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2025 08:38 WombaT wrote:
I agree with some reforms and tweaks, thing is top referees already got the vast majority of calls right. Technical committees determined this increased yet further with VAR in various leagues.
Doesn’t stop the moaning, the constant, constant moaning.
I agree with trying to improve processes, I think the fundamental problem is that you could have time-travelling androids from a future society where billions were devoted to making the perfect infallible referee and people would still moan! If a player misses an easy chance they should be putting away, or makes a dumbass mistake that concedes a goal (hi Alisson and VVD today), then they get absolutely roasted for it by pundits and fans. If refs do the equivalent and blow a call, like a stonewall pen that isn't given, or foul that happens in a lead up to a goal, a missed yellow/red, then yeah, they should get roasted for that too, and they should improve. A pro footballer completes an average of 85% of their passes give or take. Doesn't mean there isn't room to improve and take accountability for their errors. At least with a cyborg perfect ref, they aren't influenced by anyone. You at least know their reffing is unbiased.
Nah. The ref is always the bad guy. If not team A is hating then team B is. At least Alisson and VVD get praised every other game. But when you always only get hate that does something to you
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On March 10 2025 17:22 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2025 07:28 FlaShFTW wrote:On March 08 2025 08:38 WombaT wrote:
I agree with some reforms and tweaks, thing is top referees already got the vast majority of calls right. Technical committees determined this increased yet further with VAR in various leagues.
Doesn’t stop the moaning, the constant, constant moaning.
I agree with trying to improve processes, I think the fundamental problem is that you could have time-travelling androids from a future society where billions were devoted to making the perfect infallible referee and people would still moan! If a player misses an easy chance they should be putting away, or makes a dumbass mistake that concedes a goal (hi Alisson and VVD today), then they get absolutely roasted for it by pundits and fans. If refs do the equivalent and blow a call, like a stonewall pen that isn't given, or foul that happens in a lead up to a goal, a missed yellow/red, then yeah, they should get roasted for that too, and they should improve. A pro footballer completes an average of 85% of their passes give or take. Doesn't mean there isn't room to improve and take accountability for their errors. At least with a cyborg perfect ref, they aren't influenced by anyone. You at least know their reffing is unbiased. Nah. The ref is always the bad guy. If not team A is hating then team B is. At least Alisson and VVD get praised every other game. But when you always only get hate that does something to you
Yeah this is essentially my point, even if we had thought experiment perfect referees folks would still moan.
I was going to add that that refs aren’t like the players, but you have already. They very rarely get praise even if they have a great game and get all the major calls 100% right. They might get a few comments in a thread somewhere, or a brief mention in a post-match breakdown or analysis on a highlights package.
They’re almost like traffic wardens at this stage (or whatever the folks who dish out fines/clamping for parking violations are called in one’s locale). Even if they do their job well and correctly, folks still hate em anyway! Ok it’s not quite that bad yet, but getting there.
A contributor on a podcast I follow made the point, and I think it’s a fair one that the problem increasingly isn’t ‘x ref fucked up, argh!’ it’s that they’re corrupt. While this isn’t entirely new, it’s certainly a lot more common viewpoint than I recall back in the day. And I really don’t think that’s a good development.
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Maybe the pundits should always do like a newspaper segment grading refs performances like they do for players and teams.
I would read that
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Odeegard is having a poor season... Arsenal is solely carried by Saka
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On March 10 2025 20:02 Harris1st wrote:
Maybe the pundits should always do like a newspaper segment grading refs performances like they do for players and teams.
I would read that
I’d be down for that if the overall culture wasn’t so toxic for sure.
Anyway, some actual football coming up this week!
I think a fair few Champions League ties are close to settled, or it’d be a pretty big upset if some of the first leg deficits were overturned.
But Liverpool-PSG and Athletico-Real are potentially pretty tasty ties.
I’m almost 100% Liverpool won’t be as flat, especially at home, but if PSG show even 80/90% of what they showed in the first leg, they’ll have a shot. A PSG who play 10% worse overall, but are even slightly more ruthless when it comes to actually sticking the ball in the net are still a huge threat. Overall though I think Liverpool are favourites here, part of why PSG were quite so good in the first leg was that Liverpool weren’t on it, and I can’t see them not bringing more.
I’ve learned from my years of judging Real on first leg, or previous round performances at this stage at this point :p I predict Athletico really bringing it, battering Real for a bit and possibly equalising the tie, but for Real to find an answer. Going with type no doubt that’ll be in the 92nd minute or something.
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On March 10 2025 20:02 Harris1st wrote:
Maybe the pundits should always do like a newspaper segment grading refs performances like they do for players and teams.
I would read that
Christ, can you imagine?
Ian Wright is already blaming the referee for Arsenal failing to beat Utd because "he made them put the wall too far back" for Fernandes' free kick. What would he say if an actual mistake was made against Arsenal?
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On March 10 2025 20:38 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2025 20:02 Harris1st wrote:
Maybe the pundits should always do like a newspaper segment grading refs performances like they do for players and teams.
I would read that Christ, can you imagine? Ian Wright is already blaming the referee for Arsenal failing to beat Utd because "he made them put the wall too far back" for Fernandes' free kick. What would he say if an actual mistake was made against Arsenal?
In fairness that looked a mistake to me. All of the BBC Match of the Day pundits thought so as well.
Great strike nonetheless. I dunno how perception is outside of our media landscape, I find it bizarre how much flak Bruno gets as an aside. He is consistently carrying various United sides, for years now.
I’d argue he’s one of the few, and remarkably it is a few like A-grade signings made in the post-Ferguson era.
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On March 10 2025 20:53 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2025 20:38 DropBear wrote:On March 10 2025 20:02 Harris1st wrote:
Maybe the pundits should always do like a newspaper segment grading refs performances like they do for players and teams.
I would read that Christ, can you imagine? Ian Wright is already blaming the referee for Arsenal failing to beat Utd because "he made them put the wall too far back" for Fernandes' free kick. What would he say if an actual mistake was made against Arsenal? In fairness that looked a mistake to me. All of the BBC Match of the Day pundits thought so as well. Great strike nonetheless. I dunno how perception is outside of our media landscape, I find it bizarre how much flak Bruno gets as an aside. He is consistently carrying various United sides, for years now. I’d argue he’s one of the few, and remarkably it is a few like A-grade signings made in the post-Ferguson era.
Bruno is basically the only guy I bothered to even remember the name. These days I have no idea who else plays for them xD
Back in the Fergie era I could name the whole squad.
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United States10268 Posts
On March 10 2025 17:22 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2025 07:28 FlaShFTW wrote:On March 08 2025 08:38 WombaT wrote:
I agree with some reforms and tweaks, thing is top referees already got the vast majority of calls right. Technical committees determined this increased yet further with VAR in various leagues.
Doesn’t stop the moaning, the constant, constant moaning.
I agree with trying to improve processes, I think the fundamental problem is that you could have time-travelling androids from a future society where billions were devoted to making the perfect infallible referee and people would still moan! If a player misses an easy chance they should be putting away, or makes a dumbass mistake that concedes a goal (hi Alisson and VVD today), then they get absolutely roasted for it by pundits and fans. If refs do the equivalent and blow a call, like a stonewall pen that isn't given, or foul that happens in a lead up to a goal, a missed yellow/red, then yeah, they should get roasted for that too, and they should improve. A pro footballer completes an average of 85% of their passes give or take. Doesn't mean there isn't room to improve and take accountability for their errors. At least with a cyborg perfect ref, they aren't influenced by anyone. You at least know their reffing is unbiased. Nah. The ref is always the bad guy. If not team A is hating then team B is. At least Alisson and VVD get praised every other game. But when you always only get hate that does something to you
I don't know about you, but I actually appreciate when refs have a good performance. At least when I'm watching with other Liverpool fans in our discord server, a lot of us towards the end of the game will give credit to the ref, but honestly it's usually like "wow this ref doesn't suck" given the massive pool of crappy refs. For example, I don't think we've said anything bad about refs who have reffed our games in the last few weeks outside of the Everton game.
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There's a very large difference between the appreciation a ref gets compared to a football player for a good performance. If they get any appreciation at all. There's also a massive difference in compensation.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
The only ref who really did get anything like that profile or praise was Pierluigi Collina. Pretty much respected by all, except Everton fans!
And while he was a good ref, a lot of that additional reputation was down to his distinctive look, let’s be real.
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EPT
