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United States10092 Posts
Amazing 2nd half performance from both teams in that Euro final, but as usual, Southgate lets up the pressure once the team equalized and played for pens. Really hope he gets sacked. Dude just cannot take a risk or play for glory rather than sit back and pray that his players bail him out. As usual, amazing that England played better once you got Palmer and Watkins on the pitch instead of a useless Kane and Foden.
Amazing run for Argentina once again, Copa-Finalissma-WC-Copa, 4 straight trophies. The greatest Argentina team in history. Lautaro had an amazing Copa performance, really makes up for his lackluster WC where people were comparing him to Higuain and his inability to finish. Messi's injury looks pretty bad, here's hoping he can still be a super sub for the WC26 for one last hurrah. Di Maria also winning another international trophy before he rides off into the sunset, what a career for him. Gonna miss him from the Argentina squad. Him and Messi are the last of the 00s-10s generation.
Spain vs Argentina in finallisma is gonna be super fun to watch, though I think Spain will win it this time. Argentina's fullback positions have always been their weak spots with Montiel/Molina/Acuna/Tagliafico as their main rotation, and they'll have their hands full against Nico and Yamal. It'll also be interesting to see what sort of lineup that Scaloni rolls out with the loss of Di Maria (and potentially Messi as a starter). I was thinking more like a 4-box/diamond-2 with a midfield of Paredes/Macca/Enzo/De Paul and Julian and Lautaro up top. They could still go with a 442/433 with Nico Gonzalez in the LWB/LW position while the other 3 midfields are tucked more narrow.
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On July 16 2024 01:09 gTank wrote:
Austria and Poland are underwhelming to mediocre teams, Austria overperformed quite a bit. Netherlands are the only top team that performed which France was facing, Belgium sucked from the very begining. Italy was def. stronger than Belgium and Croatia was 3rd place at the WC 2 years ago so they are not bad either. Spain won against both Croatia and Italy. Georgia was super entertaining to watch but sure, not the best team to have as opponent but Germany was way way stronger than whatever France had to face.
But yeah, I forgot its Sharkie...so yeah ofc you are right Sharkie, we dont know as much as you do when it comes to football!
On July 15 2024 20:00 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think it's fair to say that
netherlands austria poland portugal belgium
is slightly harder than
italy croatia albania georgia germany.
Especially this year where Italy frankly sucked and Croatia was rather meh. Kinda true for Portugal and Belgium too, I guess, but if I were to rank these 5 against each other it'd be something like
Germany > Netherlands/Austria/Portugal/Belgium > Italy/Croatia > Georgia/Albania/Poland.
Liquid Drone agreed with me...
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
It's very hard being Poland NT fan, that's true :<
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Northern Ireland24309 Posts
On July 16 2024 01:30 FlaShFTW wrote:
Amazing 2nd half performance from both teams in that Euro final, but as usual, Southgate lets up the pressure once the team equalized and played for pens. Really hope he gets sacked. Dude just cannot take a risk or play for glory rather than sit back and pray that his players bail him out. As usual, amazing that England played better once you got Palmer and Watkins on the pitch instead of a useless Kane and Foden.
Amazing run for Argentina once again, Copa-Finalissma-WC-Copa, 4 straight trophies. The greatest Argentina team in history. Lautaro had an amazing Copa performance, really makes up for his lackluster WC where people were comparing him to Higuain and his inability to finish. Messi's injury looks pretty bad, here's hoping he can still be a super sub for the WC26 for one last hurrah. Di Maria also winning another international trophy before he rides off into the sunset, what a career for him. Gonna miss him from the Argentina squad. Him and Messi are the last of the 00s-10s generation.
Spain vs Argentina in finallisma is gonna be super fun to watch, though I think Spain will win it this time. Argentina's fullback positions have always been their weak spots with Montiel/Molina/Acuna/Tagliafico as their main rotation, and they'll have their hands full against Nico and Yamal. It'll also be interesting to see what sort of lineup that Scaloni rolls out with the loss of Di Maria (and potentially Messi as a starter). I was thinking more like a 4-box/diamond-2 with a midfield of Paredes/Macca/Enzo/De Paul and Julian and Lautaro up top. They could still go with a 442/433 with Nico Gonzalez in the LWB/LW position while the other 3 midfields are tucked more narrow.
Finalissima is a glorified friendly :p
I really think that’s a bit unfair on Southgate, he’s at times being judged based on his past failings rather than what he actually did in this match. His gameplan worked well first half, a lapse in concentration and they had to make changes, and they did. Watkins did come on with plenty of time, at one point they had all 3 of Foden/Bellingham/Palmer on the pitch at once. It’s worth pointing out that England’s single worst performance in his tenure came when he did take the shackles off as folks demanded and Hungary whacked them 4-0. Which no doubt further informed his cautious approach.
I’m not a Southgate stan, but I think people have to be fair with the criticism. He was criticised, correctly IMO for not making decisive changes in games early enough in previous tournaments. This tournament his changes from the bench changed multiple games in England’s favour
It may be time for a change, to take that next step but then who comes in? You need an upgrade on where he’s deficient, but who is that man who is willing to take the gig? The players love the man, it’s rare you hear so many in interviews after a devastating defeat make a point of saying they really wanted to win for the manager, as well as the usual for the fans/nation. If you can get a Howe or a Potter, that may be a better option moving forwards, but there are worse case scenarios where you replace Southgate for his deficiencies, but the next guy can’t maintain the things he did very well.
I’d disagree it’s a great Argentina side, they’re a good one and Messi’s done a lot of heavy lifting historically. I’d rate the 2002 and 2006 sides as stronger across the park/on paper, and in the latter case played better football on the park. Pekerman made a bad call subbing Riquelme against Germany and it cost them, but they were playing some top stuff.
Looking forward to the World Cup, it’s fine being merely a good side when there just aren’t really many great sides. Almost every squad has some kind of hole, some kind of player they’d love to have an upgrade on with maybe the exception of France and Portugal. Spain have that cohesive method of play that makes them better than the sum of their parts.
Excited already! I do think it’s Europe’s to lose this time around.
Portugal should be better as surely Ronaldo’s age will force Martinez to see sense. France may have a fit Mbappe and their usual ridiculous squad, plus the likely usual Deschaumps handbrake problem. Spain don’t have any obvious imminent retirements that they can’t replace and Yamal will still be a teenager by then, which is ridiculous to consider. England, Saka, Bellingham, Palmer will still be under 25, Foden and Rice 26 and 27 respectively. Even veterans like Kane and Shaw will be 32/31 and conceivably still doing it. This Euros wasn’t the last shot this group has of taking home a tournament.
I’m not down on the South Americans, nor discounting those outside the ‘big 2’ either, but their squads just aren’t as stacked or as balanced as some of the European big-hitters. Nor do some of them have coaches, or some instilled method of play that bridges those gaps. Uruguay under Bielsa I suppose, but it’s not exactly a golden generation talent wise.
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United States10092 Posts
Southgate was still (rightfully) criticized for last minute changes in several of the games in this Euros. The knockouts just somehow made everyone forget that he made changes until it was too late. Just because he finally did it a few times doesn't change the fact that he still waited too long several times, not just in the past.
Argentina is like Spain in that they're bigger than the sum of their parts, but they've still got the world's best CB pairing, a world class keeper who you know will also win PK shootouts, a very solid midfield, and still some good strikers even without Di Maria and potentially Messi. Their bench is also fairly deep with Paredes and Lo Celso coming off the bench for them. I do think that the 2026 World Cup and the 2028 Copa will probably be the last two international tournaments that they'll be favorites/in the top 2/3 teams before this main core starts to age out and they start looking for new players to boost their squad.
Europe definitely have the edge in terms of longevity in their squads right now.
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Northern Ireland24309 Posts
On July 16 2024 06:54 FlaShFTW wrote:
Southgate was still (rightfully) criticized for last minute changes in several of the games in this Euros. The knockouts just somehow made everyone forget that he made changes until it was too late. Just because he finally did it a few times doesn't change the fact that he still waited too long several times, not just in the past.
Argentina is like Spain in that they're bigger than the sum of their parts, but they've still got the world's best CB pairing, a world class keeper who you know will also win PK shootouts, a very solid midfield, and still some good strikers even without Di Maria and potentially Messi. Their bench is also fairly deep with Paredes and Lo Celso coming off the bench for them. I do think that the 2026 World Cup and the 2028 Copa will probably be the last two international tournaments that they'll be favorites/in the top 2/3 teams before this main core starts to age out and they start looking for new players to boost their squad.
Europe definitely have the edge in terms of longevity in their squads right now.
He is criticised whatever he does from a certain cohort, which is my core issue. He was criticised for picking his favourites, proven players for him and not picking on club form. Then he picks a pretty bold squad and he gets criticised for leaving out proven international players. Gets criticised (rightly at the time) for not changing games, but then when he does that successfully he gets criticised for not getting it right from the start.
It’s a poisoned chalice of a gig in that sense. Especially because, without being a gatekeeper to the joy of the beautiful game, summer tournaments attract a lot of attention from folks who don’t really seriously follow football.
I also think in general football narratives really suffer from being weaved after the fact. One can be proclaimed a genius, or damned as an idiot purely on the actual result, regardless of how wise a particular call is. But hey humans just tend to view things in this way across the board.
Kane was lively enough against Holland, and given he is good at linking play, plus his record, I don’t think giving him the shot against Spain was a daft call. In theory he could hold the ball up and keep it better than the alternatives, in a game England weren’t likely to have a huge amount of the ball. It just didn’t work out that way, and Southgate made the change.
Watkins give you something different for sure, asks different questions of the opposition, but where against the Netherlands he scored a brilliant, low percentage goal, against Spain he fluffed his lines and took a terrible touch when played through. I still think it was the correct call, but for many those are the thin lines between being proclaimed a genius or not.
Agreed Argentina are definitely up there, if you have a midfield that good, with players that complement each other, a great centre back partnership, excellent forwards and an inspirational goalkeeper you’ve always got a pretty good shot.
I think in combination them not having great fullbacks, Messi departing the stage gradually will be a pretty big issue though. Messi is an incredible creative player as we all know, without an obvious replacement (of course not at the same level, but even a similar kind of player). The midfield isn’t bad on the ball at all but isn’t crazy creative, one way to compensate is to get a lot of width and runs behind with the full backs, but they don’t really have that.
Maybe Dybala can be a Messi-lite, some new player emerges in the next few years, or the midfield can find a way!
France for me were a better side when they had Paul Pogba given a bit of licence to spray the ball around, so maybe Enzo can do a bit of that kind of stuff.
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Southgate stepping down as England coach.
He was super successful in terms of achievements (two finals yay) but the way he let his players play this "style" of football when you have such great players is over hopefully.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c978e37ld7ro
"Southgate is the only manager bar 1966 World Cup winner Sir Alf Ramsey to lead the England men's team into a major tournament final."
And he's done it twice.
And he's the first person to do so in a tournament that wasn't being held in England.
The people criticising him can do one.
EDIT:
I hope they appoint Dyche for the memes.
"England will play 4-4-Fucking-2".
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Northern Ireland24309 Posts
On July 16 2024 19:18 gTank wrote:
Southgate stepping down as England coach.
He was super successful in terms of achievements (two finals yay) but the way he let his players play this "style" of football when you have such great players is over hopefully.
That is most national teams in the world these days, with a few notable exceptions.
I think perhaps he overachieved initially with squads that really weren’t that great, brought players through and really improved the mentality which saw players consistently break through barriers previous generations couldn’t. But having done that, perhaps he underachieved when he finally did have a great squad.
It is worth remembering that English football was in such a state when he took over, that his initial job remit was to improve the mood, lay groundwork and the FA didn’t even set qualifying for the World Cup as a target.
For me 2022 was England’s best tournament performance under Southgate, they played probably their best stuff and were actually quite entertaining. I think most reasonable fans of the game who watched the France game would have said that was a coin flip of a game and very even, and England got a little unlucky with the first goal as it seemed a pretty clear foul on Saka in the buildup to France’s opener. Such are the margins in international tournaments!
On a wider point, as much as I hated Qatar as a location, a winter World Cup did see players come in in much better physical shape being halfway through the season.
I don’t think it’s coincidence that England played better football then, overall that World Cup saw a record number of goals. Teams with a lot of players involved in the business end of the European season are just fucking knackered by the time tournaments come around.
I think we’re going to see a lot of boring football in 2026. The States is pretty hot in many areas at that time of year, and now we’re going up to 48 teams.
Anyway on Southgate well done to a thoroughly decent man, and hopefully his successor can build on that further.
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51393 Posts
i have a gut feeling it will be potter replacing him
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I think with the quality of these players (and how awesome they play in their clubs even) England should have played better attractive football and not only 2 games.
No one can argue about the success Southgate had and I think he will find a nice job at a higher profile club. He seems like he really excells at inspiring players and bringing them on a good mental state to perform under pressure and to work as a team but individual players were not improving so much, rather being worse (Foden, Kane ... ).
And I agree with some players being tired already after a long season and long CL runs but that could have been mitigated by having a good deep squad and England have that more than other teams. This should be planned by the coach, not keeping out of form players that are tired already in a game but subbing them.
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Northern Ireland24309 Posts
On July 16 2024 21:10 gTank wrote:
I think with the quality of these players (and how awesome they play in their clubs even) England should have played better attractive football and not only 2 games.
No one can argue about the success Southgate had and I think he will find a nice job at a higher profile club. He seems like he really excells at inspiring players and bringing them on a good mental state to perform under pressure and to work as a team but individual players were not improving so much, rather being worse (Foden, Kane ... ).
And I agree with some players being tired already after a long season and long CL runs but that could have been mitigated by having a good deep squad and England have that more than other teams. This should be planned by the coach, not keeping out of form players that are tired already in a game but subbing them.
Kane wasn’t 100% fit and sharp, Bellingham was clearly gassed and only sparkled in moments, he was already looking that way at the tail end of the Champion’s League. As deep as England’s squad is to scan it’s very loaded in wide forwards/10s, and actually quite thin elsewhere.
You can leave players of the calibre of Maddison or Grealish and Rashford out of the squad entirely, such is their strength there. But if Bellingham or god forbid Rice get injured there aren’t really players to bring in there who are anywhere near equivalent. Indeed I think Rice is England’s single least replaceable player.
There’s a huge drop off from Kane too, you’re talking one of Europe’s best 9s for nigh on a decade to a couple of very good but maybe not elite Premier League strikers.
In an alternate universe perhaps Southgate drops Kane for Watkins or Toney and they have bad games, and then you get people saying they’re inexperienced at this level and you need the know-how of Kane. Perhaps they could have done it, but I think Southgate made the right call here.
Palmer could have got more minutes for me, certainly Gordon but Foden was the best player on the pitch by a mile in the first half against the Netherlands so you’re left with a scenario where he maybe could have been dropped for many of the preceding games, but it’s hard to do it for the final.
In the interests of balance, some criticisms that I shall lay at Southgate’s door :p
1. Kane is so irreplaceable because he never gets replaced. England aren’t going to struggle to qualify for these tournaments, but he still plays every game. Toney and Watkins could have been blooded and tested in the team far more than they have been.
2. Unlike previous tournaments, England didn’t seem to really know their team and be settled coming into it. They figured it out as they went and barely got away with it, and I think almost certainly with a harder group or a harder Ro16 opponent they wouldn’t have got away with it. I honestly think Trent could be that midfield quarterback against lesser sides at least, but you need time to work on that system it’s not an experiment you can just pull out for a major tournament. Trent was the scapegoat (as usual) but he actually wasn’t even the problem, the problem was a crippling lack of movement and dynamism across the side. There’s no point having a flawed player, but one who is legitimately one of the best sprayers of a ball in Europe if nobody is making the runs to exploit that. So you ended up with a converted midfielder with all the negatives there, with none of the positives you might get.
3. Southgate again left it too late against Slovakia to make subs, and a largely anonymous Bellingham bailed him out. I have given him props for improvement in this area and being more proactive, but the penny only really dropped from the Ro16 onwards. England could very easily have been knocked out by then, and as I said in an earlier post us football fans tend to weave narratives after the fact on very narrow margins. So, being consistent there there’s a very plausible universe where Bellingod doesn’t score an overhead kick in the last minutes of a game, and yet again we see Southgate sticking with a side that isn’t functioning for 70/80 minutes until it’s too late
Walls of text aside, the future is bright if you’re English, or a traitor to Northern Ireland in supporting England in major tournaments. Harry Kane isn’t done, he’s the reigning European Golden Boot winner, and he’ll only be 32 next tournament. All those gifted winger/midfielder types will be 27 at the oldest, and most considerably younger than that. Maybe the next coach actually uses Trent?! You’ve got some quality defenders coming through, Branthwaite maybe the most exciting of all and he wasn’t even here. If Mainoo can keep on his trajectory, or Wharton, or some new talent comes through the midfield starts looking pretty nice. I actually think Mainoo’s had a pretty damn good tournament at times and he’s great at receiving the ball under pressure and beating a man, but Wharton may be that player England perpetually lack who can just keep it ticking over with incisive passing. If you could blend the two into one player England would have the kind of player they’ve sorely been lacking
The only players that really probably will need replaced come 2026 age wise are probably Walker and Trippier, so that’s not bad. Deschaumps is so far remaining in situ so while they’ll still be dangerous, I don’t think France will be as good as they could be potentially, which is great for everyone else!
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Northern Ireland24309 Posts
On July 16 2024 19:42 MJG wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c978e37ld7ro"Southgate is the only manager bar 1966 World Cup winner Sir Alf Ramsey to lead the England men's team into a major tournament final." And he's done it twice. And he's the first person to do so in a tournament that wasn't being held in England. The people criticising him can do one. EDIT: I hope they appoint Dyche for the memes. "England will play 4-4-Fucking-2".
Give it Big Sam
It would amuse me no end if England just gave up trying to emulate the likes of Spain with their wee technical midfielders and just stuck it in the mixer to tournament glory
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On a side note, would it be possible for England to have a non english coach or are the fans/media strictly against this?
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On July 16 2024 22:14 gTank wrote:
On a side note, would it be possible for England to have a non english coach or are the fans/media strictly against this?
We had Capello and Eriksson, so it can be done, but I don't think it will happen.
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On July 16 2024 22:14 gTank wrote:
On a side note, would it be possible for England to have a non english coach or are the fans/media strictly against this?
It's happened before, and I don't think there would be a large outcry if it happened again.
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On July 16 2024 22:18 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2024 22:14 gTank wrote:
On a side note, would it be possible for England to have a non english coach or are the fans/media strictly against this? We had Capello and Eriksson, so it can be done, but I don't think it will happen.
Yeah I remember, but they were not as successful as Southgate iirc.
Sometimes you need input from outside of your footie culture and if there are great coaches available, I would go for them regardless of nationality.
Austria played a good tournament with a german coach, also really smart move in hindsight.
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On July 16 2024 22:12 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2024 19:42 MJG wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c978e37ld7ro"Southgate is the only manager bar 1966 World Cup winner Sir Alf Ramsey to lead the England men's team into a major tournament final." And he's done it twice. And he's the first person to do so in a tournament that wasn't being held in England. The people criticising him can do one. EDIT: I hope they appoint Dyche for the memes. "England will play 4-4-Fucking-2". Give it Big Sam It would amuse me no end if England just gave up trying to emulate the likes of Spain with their wee technical midfielders and just stuck it in the mixer to tournament glory
Big Sam technically has a 100% record as England manager.
(1P 1W 0D 0L 1GF 0GA).
EDIT:
Being more serious, I think that the most likely option is Potter. I don't think that the FA will go for a foreign manager, and I don't think that Howe will walk away from Newcastle.
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Northern Ireland24309 Posts
On July 16 2024 22:14 gTank wrote:
On a side note, would it be possible for England to have a non english coach or are the fans/media strictly against this?
Poch is on the FA’s shortlist apparently, so there isn’t an issue at that end anyway.
I haven’t read the mood of the nation, my instinct would be that they may prefer a native coach, but wouldn’t be against a foreigner.
It’s part of the problem of baying for the blood of the very English fellow who came up coaching through the youth setup, you have to actually replace him with someone.
Potter’s been out of the game a while and he’s at that tricky spot where he has to pick his next gig very well. He turned down Ajax iirc, there’s no guarantee he’d want to be out of the club game for a minimum of 2 years.
FFP aside Howe is in an environment where he has the kind of money to spend, plus a degree of patience he’s quite unlikely to see again in most other club jobs. That’s a hell of a thing to walk away from.
England have a new problem too, you’re not following a disaster in not qualifying for a tournament, or an underwhelming Ro16 exit for the umpteenth time. You’re following a semi, final, quarters, final sequence, and the expectation is that you take that ball and actually win.
There’s hope, there’s hype and all the fever that a summer tournament brings with it. Those are quite different from an actual, realistic, reasonable expectation that this group can win something, informed by recent evidence.
Football players and managers aren’t like many of us, they tend to back themselves to succeed where a more objective observer would not (see a million transfers to big teams where it’s obvious they’re not getting in a team). But now you’re not only trying to go against what will be ‘60 years of hurt’, you’re coming in to replace the guy who got closest to actually doing that, by far.
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EPT
