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Lalalaland34492 Posts
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On March 01 2020 03:47 clusen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2020 03:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
You can still maintain that part of football culture without having so much of the negative stuff.
You don’t lose all the vibrancy of club songs, friendly mocking of rivals etc by clamping down on stuff like racial/homophobic abuse and whatnot.
The banners against Hopp reached a point where I don't have any understanding anymore, they lost all political meaning, they are not a response to a recent event, it's not some drunk dude yelling out profanities out of emotion - there is no surrounding element of excuse for me.
tldr: In reality the banners have nothing to do with Hopp as a person. He is a symbol for what lots of fans think is wrong with football. The protests these last weeks are a protest against collective punishment which the DFB abandoned years ago. But now they started using it again because Hopp filed a suit against Dortmund fans. The fans act the way they did because every time they try to argue against concepts, officials ignore them.
_ _ _ _
Back when Hoffenheim went on a huge spending spree in the 2nd Bundesliga and a Mainz official said it was a shame that clubs like Hoffenheim take one of the 36-professional-football-spots in Germany instead of clubs with a long tradition, Hopp asked the DFB to punish statements like these as harsh as racism.
Hoffenheim had an audio system next to the away end to direct sound at those fans so they feel that home fans are freaking loud and whatnot which means they atleast accepted risk of injury. (The club said nobody knew about it, it was just the caretaker).
Hoffenheim fans sang "Timo Werner, du Hurensohn" which is the same way Hopp was insulted and nobody cared.
Players were victims of racism and nobody cared, an U16-team of Hertha BSC was repeatedly abused this way by their opponents a few months back. They left the field and while it was agreed on that the racial hatred was wrong, they still got the game ruled against them because rules.
The dfb and Hopp repeatedly showed that they couldn't care less for injustice and insults happening. But when the fucking head of the premium-Bundesliga-sponsor is called Hurensohn (which atleast in my generation is almost meaningless as it was flying around left, right and centre in every school-pause - still it's sexist and nobody should be insulted) SKY, Sportschau (saturday evening Bundesliga recap), DFB, club officials are going crazy. Nobody was bringing the long history of fans vs Hopp up. But everybody went "holy shit few days after a racist killed 10 people you call somebody Hurensohn, that's not tolerable".
That is totally off. Again. It's not okay to insult people even when emotions are way up during a football match but that's a stupid banner and it's gone after ten minutes. Compare that to jewish communities not even using stamps on their post to protect recipients, compare that to people not read as German (can you say this in english? = people might be german but because of black hair or a part of their name or them visiting a mosque, racists say the are "other") by racists and being killed for that, compare that to a party that sits in parliaments and talks shit about holocaust. It's always the same, next game teams show a banner "Against racism" but that is all the Association is willing to do UNTIL that billionaire is sad.
And I know there is more: the crosshair. We could talk about that being part of popculture (Tatort = one of Germany's most followed criminal movie series) or as a standard-formula in literature/news (Im Fadenkreuz der Ermittler = in the investigators crosshair meaning to have an eye on somebody because he*she might have done something wrong). But I accept it's not the right time to do it. These days some insane person might just take it literally but I bet nobody in the stadium want's that. It's a protest against 50+1 and the association breaking their words because Hoffenheim and Leipzig broke that using sponsorship and what not without consequences. The thing is: Fans arguing that way against a concept hasn't worked. Nobody listens. But they want to be heard and as the Bayern fans explained yesterday after the match: Clubs, Association and mass media only notice the fans existence and them having an opinion when they use insults.
e: Talks about a "black saturday" etc and the "ugliest face of football" are so dumb.
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On March 01 2020 18:51 smr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2020 03:47 clusen wrote:On March 01 2020 03:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
You can still maintain that part of football culture without having so much of the negative stuff.
You don’t lose all the vibrancy of club songs, friendly mocking of rivals etc by clamping down on stuff like racial/homophobic abuse and whatnot.
The banners against Hopp reached a point where I don't have any understanding anymore, they lost all political meaning, they are not a response to a recent event, it's not some drunk dude yelling out profanities out of emotion - there is no surrounding element of excuse for me. tldr: In reality the banners have nothing to do with Hopp as a person. He is a symbol for what lots of fans think is wrong with football. The protests these last weeks are a protest against collective punishment which the DFB abandoned years ago. But now they started using it again because Hopp filed a suit against Dortmund fans. The fans act the way they did because every time they try to argue against concepts, officials ignore them. _ _ _ _ Back when Hoffenheim went on a huge spending spree in the 2nd Bundesliga and a Mainz official said it was a shame that clubs like Hoffenheim take one of the 36-professional-football-spots in Germany instead of clubs with a long tradition, Hopp asked the DFB to punish statements like these as harsh as racism. Hoffenheim had an audio system next to the away end to direct sound at those fans so they feel that home fans are freaking loud and whatnot which means they atleast accepted risk of injury. (The club said nobody knew about it, it was just the caretaker). Hoffenheim fans sang "Timo Werner, du Hurensohn" which is the same way Hopp was insulted and nobody cared. Players were victims of racism and nobody cared, an U16-team of Hertha BSC was repeatedly abused this way by their opponents a few months back. They left the field and while it was agreed on that the racial hatred was wrong, they still got the game ruled against them because rules. The dfb and Hopp repeatedly showed that they couldn't care less for injustice and insults happening. But when the fucking head of the premium-Bundesliga-sponsor is called Hurensohn (which atleast in my generation is almost meaningless as it was flying around left, right and centre in every school-pause - still it's sexist and nobody should be insulted) SKY, Sportschau (saturday evening Bundesliga recap), DFB, club officials are going crazy. Nobody was bringing the long history of fans vs Hopp up. But everybody went "holy shit few days after a racist killed 10 people you call somebody Hurensohn, that's not tolerable". That is totally off. Again. It's not okay to insult people even when emotions are way up during a football match but that's a stupid banner and it's gone after ten minutes. Compare that to jewish communities not even using stamps on their post to protect recipients, compare that to people not read as German (can you say this in english? = people might be german but because of black hair or a part of their name or them visiting a mosque, racists say the are "other") by racists and being killed for that, compare that to a party that sits in parliaments and talks shit about holocaust. It's always the same, next game teams show a banner "Against racism" but that is all the Association is willing to do UNTIL that billionaire is sad. And I know there is more: the crosshair. We could talk about that being part of popculture (Tatort = one of Germany's most followed criminal movie series) or as a standard-formula in literature/news (Im Fadenkreuz der Ermittler = in the investigators crosshair meaning to have an eye on somebody because he*she might have done something wrong). But I accept it's not the right time to do it. These days some insane person might just take it literally but I bet nobody in the stadium want's that. It's a protest against 50+1 and the association breaking their words because Hoffenheim and Leipzig broke that using sponsorship and what not without consequences. The thing is: Fans arguing that way against a concept hasn't worked. Nobody listens. But they want to be heard and as the Bayern fans explained yesterday after the match: Clubs, Association and mass media only notice the fans existence and them having an opinion when they use insults. e: Talks about a "black saturday" etc and the "ugliest face of football" are so dumb.
So there are things which are wrong in football. Big news. I still don't see how this justifies any of this behaviour. And if you think insults and banners like this are normal today it just means that our society is going to shit and not that we should accept it in my opinion.
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On March 01 2020 19:09 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2020 18:51 smr wrote:On March 01 2020 03:47 clusen wrote:On March 01 2020 03:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
You can still maintain that part of football culture without having so much of the negative stuff.
You don’t lose all the vibrancy of club songs, friendly mocking of rivals etc by clamping down on stuff like racial/homophobic abuse and whatnot.
The banners against Hopp reached a point where I don't have any understanding anymore, they lost all political meaning, they are not a response to a recent event, it's not some drunk dude yelling out profanities out of emotion - there is no surrounding element of excuse for me. tldr: In reality the banners have nothing to do with Hopp as a person. He is a symbol for what lots of fans think is wrong with football. The protests these last weeks are a protest against collective punishment which the DFB abandoned years ago. But now they started using it again because Hopp filed a suit against Dortmund fans. The fans act the way they did because every time they try to argue against concepts, officials ignore them. _ _ _ _ Back when Hoffenheim went on a huge spending spree in the 2nd Bundesliga and a Mainz official said it was a shame that clubs like Hoffenheim take one of the 36-professional-football-spots in Germany instead of clubs with a long tradition, Hopp asked the DFB to punish statements like these as harsh as racism. Hoffenheim had an audio system next to the away end to direct sound at those fans so they feel that home fans are freaking loud and whatnot which means they atleast accepted risk of injury. (The club said nobody knew about it, it was just the caretaker). Hoffenheim fans sang "Timo Werner, du Hurensohn" which is the same way Hopp was insulted and nobody cared. Players were victims of racism and nobody cared, an U16-team of Hertha BSC was repeatedly abused this way by their opponents a few months back. They left the field and while it was agreed on that the racial hatred was wrong, they still got the game ruled against them because rules. The dfb and Hopp repeatedly showed that they couldn't care less for injustice and insults happening. But when the fucking head of the premium-Bundesliga-sponsor is called Hurensohn (which atleast in my generation is almost meaningless as it was flying around left, right and centre in every school-pause - still it's sexist and nobody should be insulted) SKY, Sportschau (saturday evening Bundesliga recap), DFB, club officials are going crazy. Nobody was bringing the long history of fans vs Hopp up. But everybody went "holy shit few days after a racist killed 10 people you call somebody Hurensohn, that's not tolerable". That is totally off. Again. It's not okay to insult people even when emotions are way up during a football match but that's a stupid banner and it's gone after ten minutes. Compare that to jewish communities not even using stamps on their post to protect recipients, compare that to people not read as German (can you say this in english? = people might be german but because of black hair or a part of their name or them visiting a mosque, racists say the are "other") by racists and being killed for that, compare that to a party that sits in parliaments and talks shit about holocaust. It's always the same, next game teams show a banner "Against racism" but that is all the Association is willing to do UNTIL that billionaire is sad. And I know there is more: the crosshair. We could talk about that being part of popculture (Tatort = one of Germany's most followed criminal movie series) or as a standard-formula in literature/news (Im Fadenkreuz der Ermittler = in the investigators crosshair meaning to have an eye on somebody because he*she might have done something wrong). But I accept it's not the right time to do it. These days some insane person might just take it literally but I bet nobody in the stadium want's that. It's a protest against 50+1 and the association breaking their words because Hoffenheim and Leipzig broke that using sponsorship and what not without consequences. The thing is: Fans arguing that way against a concept hasn't worked. Nobody listens. But they want to be heard and as the Bayern fans explained yesterday after the match: Clubs, Association and mass media only notice the fans existence and them having an opinion when they use insults. e: Talks about a "black saturday" etc and the "ugliest face of football" are so dumb. So there are things which are wrong in football. Big news. I still don't see how this justifies any of this behaviour. And if you think insults and banners like this are normal today it just means that our society is going to shit and not that we should accept it in my opinion.
I don't think they should be accepted. I think every single person should be protected the same way and that is not the case. Women, homosexuals, POC they did not receive the same attention when they were attacked over the years. If this now changes, I'll be super happy. But the association, the officials and part of the massmedia now have to prove that their fight for tolerance and against hatred is an honest one.
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Northern Ireland25534 Posts
On March 01 2020 18:51 smr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2020 03:47 clusen wrote:On March 01 2020 03:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
You can still maintain that part of football culture without having so much of the negative stuff.
You don’t lose all the vibrancy of club songs, friendly mocking of rivals etc by clamping down on stuff like racial/homophobic abuse and whatnot.
The banners against Hopp reached a point where I don't have any understanding anymore, they lost all political meaning, they are not a response to a recent event, it's not some drunk dude yelling out profanities out of emotion - there is no surrounding element of excuse for me. tldr: In reality the banners have nothing to do with Hopp as a person. He is a symbol for what lots of fans think is wrong with football. The protests these last weeks are a protest against collective punishment which the DFB abandoned years ago. But now they started using it again because Hopp filed a suit against Dortmund fans. The fans act the way they did because every time they try to argue against concepts, officials ignore them. _ _ _ _ Back when Hoffenheim went on a huge spending spree in the 2nd Bundesliga and a Mainz official said it was a shame that clubs like Hoffenheim take one of the 36-professional-football-spots in Germany instead of clubs with a long tradition, Hopp asked the DFB to punish statements like these as harsh as racism. Hoffenheim had an audio system next to the away end to direct sound at those fans so they feel that home fans are freaking loud and whatnot which means they atleast accepted risk of injury. (The club said nobody knew about it, it was just the caretaker). Hoffenheim fans sang "Timo Werner, du Hurensohn" which is the same way Hopp was insulted and nobody cared. Players were victims of racism and nobody cared, an U16-team of Hertha BSC was repeatedly abused this way by their opponents a few months back. They left the field and while it was agreed on that the racial hatred was wrong, they still got the game ruled against them because rules. The dfb and Hopp repeatedly showed that they couldn't care less for injustice and insults happening. But when the fucking head of the premium-Bundesliga-sponsor is called Hurensohn (which atleast in my generation is almost meaningless as it was flying around left, right and centre in every school-pause - still it's sexist and nobody should be insulted) SKY, Sportschau (saturday evening Bundesliga recap), DFB, club officials are going crazy. Nobody was bringing the long history of fans vs Hopp up. But everybody went "holy shit few days after a racist killed 10 people you call somebody Hurensohn, that's not tolerable". That is totally off. Again. It's not okay to insult people even when emotions are way up during a football match but that's a stupid banner and it's gone after ten minutes. Compare that to jewish communities not even using stamps on their post to protect recipients, compare that to people not read as German (can you say this in english? = people might be german but because of black hair or a part of their name or them visiting a mosque, racists say the are "other") by racists and being killed for that, compare that to a party that sits in parliaments and talks shit about holocaust. It's always the same, next game teams show a banner "Against racism" but that is all the Association is willing to do UNTIL that billionaire is sad. And I know there is more: the crosshair. We could talk about that being part of popculture (Tatort = one of Germany's most followed criminal movie series) or as a standard-formula in literature/news (Im Fadenkreuz der Ermittler = in the investigators crosshair meaning to have an eye on somebody because he*she might have done something wrong). But I accept it's not the right time to do it. These days some insane person might just take it literally but I bet nobody in the stadium want's that. It's a protest against 50+1 and the association breaking their words because Hoffenheim and Leipzig broke that using sponsorship and what not without consequences. The thing is: Fans arguing that way against a concept hasn't worked. Nobody listens. But they want to be heard and as the Bayern fans explained yesterday after the match: Clubs, Association and mass media only notice the fans existence and them having an opinion when they use insults. e: Talks about a "black saturday" etc and the "ugliest face of football" are so dumb.
Yeah that’s a good post too.
I went digging a bit further and the coverage was utterly ridiculous. Responses quoted were all about how much Hopp has done for Germany in employment and investment etc, ‘he doesn’t deserve this’
Well no he can both be a decent gent and also be pushing against a cherished rule in one of the few community institutions that thrives in this era.
Some of the reports I read didn’t even mention what the banner was, or what they were protesting! How am I meant to have an opinion? Probably my most despised journalistic practice is just saying ‘offensive comments’ or whatever and then not quoting them. Argh
Football has been fucking the fans for decades now, although Bundesliga clubs not so much. I fear that by bending their own rules over 50+1 it’s just going to open the floodgates down the line.
It’s everyone’s game, it’s the communities. There’s a reason it has so much mass appeal. Except we have gulf states being allowed to buy clubs and use them as a propaganda exercise and all sorts.
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On March 01 2020 19:39 smr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2020 19:09 justanothertownie wrote:On March 01 2020 18:51 smr wrote:On March 01 2020 03:47 clusen wrote:On March 01 2020 03:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
You can still maintain that part of football culture without having so much of the negative stuff.
You don’t lose all the vibrancy of club songs, friendly mocking of rivals etc by clamping down on stuff like racial/homophobic abuse and whatnot.
The banners against Hopp reached a point where I don't have any understanding anymore, they lost all political meaning, they are not a response to a recent event, it's not some drunk dude yelling out profanities out of emotion - there is no surrounding element of excuse for me. tldr: In reality the banners have nothing to do with Hopp as a person. He is a symbol for what lots of fans think is wrong with football. The protests these last weeks are a protest against collective punishment which the DFB abandoned years ago. But now they started using it again because Hopp filed a suit against Dortmund fans. The fans act the way they did because every time they try to argue against concepts, officials ignore them. _ _ _ _ Back when Hoffenheim went on a huge spending spree in the 2nd Bundesliga and a Mainz official said it was a shame that clubs like Hoffenheim take one of the 36-professional-football-spots in Germany instead of clubs with a long tradition, Hopp asked the DFB to punish statements like these as harsh as racism. Hoffenheim had an audio system next to the away end to direct sound at those fans so they feel that home fans are freaking loud and whatnot which means they atleast accepted risk of injury. (The club said nobody knew about it, it was just the caretaker). Hoffenheim fans sang "Timo Werner, du Hurensohn" which is the same way Hopp was insulted and nobody cared. Players were victims of racism and nobody cared, an U16-team of Hertha BSC was repeatedly abused this way by their opponents a few months back. They left the field and while it was agreed on that the racial hatred was wrong, they still got the game ruled against them because rules. The dfb and Hopp repeatedly showed that they couldn't care less for injustice and insults happening. But when the fucking head of the premium-Bundesliga-sponsor is called Hurensohn (which atleast in my generation is almost meaningless as it was flying around left, right and centre in every school-pause - still it's sexist and nobody should be insulted) SKY, Sportschau (saturday evening Bundesliga recap), DFB, club officials are going crazy. Nobody was bringing the long history of fans vs Hopp up. But everybody went "holy shit few days after a racist killed 10 people you call somebody Hurensohn, that's not tolerable". That is totally off. Again. It's not okay to insult people even when emotions are way up during a football match but that's a stupid banner and it's gone after ten minutes. Compare that to jewish communities not even using stamps on their post to protect recipients, compare that to people not read as German (can you say this in english? = people might be german but because of black hair or a part of their name or them visiting a mosque, racists say the are "other") by racists and being killed for that, compare that to a party that sits in parliaments and talks shit about holocaust. It's always the same, next game teams show a banner "Against racism" but that is all the Association is willing to do UNTIL that billionaire is sad. And I know there is more: the crosshair. We could talk about that being part of popculture (Tatort = one of Germany's most followed criminal movie series) or as a standard-formula in literature/news (Im Fadenkreuz der Ermittler = in the investigators crosshair meaning to have an eye on somebody because he*she might have done something wrong). But I accept it's not the right time to do it. These days some insane person might just take it literally but I bet nobody in the stadium want's that. It's a protest against 50+1 and the association breaking their words because Hoffenheim and Leipzig broke that using sponsorship and what not without consequences. The thing is: Fans arguing that way against a concept hasn't worked. Nobody listens. But they want to be heard and as the Bayern fans explained yesterday after the match: Clubs, Association and mass media only notice the fans existence and them having an opinion when they use insults. e: Talks about a "black saturday" etc and the "ugliest face of football" are so dumb. So there are things which are wrong in football. Big news. I still don't see how this justifies any of this behaviour. And if you think insults and banners like this are normal today it just means that our society is going to shit and not that we should accept it in my opinion. I don't think they should be accepted. I think every single person should be protected the same way and that is not the case. Women, homosexuals, POC they did not receive the same attention when they were attacked over the years. If this now changes, I'll be super happy. But the association, the officials and part of the massmedia now have to prove that their fight for tolerance and against hatred is an honest one.
We can agree on that of course. But it's not like the massmedia ignored the racist stuff. Everyone condemned the things that happened to the hertha player for example.
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On March 01 2020 21:01 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2020 19:39 smr wrote:On March 01 2020 19:09 justanothertownie wrote:On March 01 2020 18:51 smr wrote:On March 01 2020 03:47 clusen wrote:On March 01 2020 03:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
You can still maintain that part of football culture without having so much of the negative stuff.
You don’t lose all the vibrancy of club songs, friendly mocking of rivals etc by clamping down on stuff like racial/homophobic abuse and whatnot.
The banners against Hopp reached a point where I don't have any understanding anymore, they lost all political meaning, they are not a response to a recent event, it's not some drunk dude yelling out profanities out of emotion - there is no surrounding element of excuse for me. tldr: In reality the banners have nothing to do with Hopp as a person. He is a symbol for what lots of fans think is wrong with football. The protests these last weeks are a protest against collective punishment which the DFB abandoned years ago. But now they started using it again because Hopp filed a suit against Dortmund fans. The fans act the way they did because every time they try to argue against concepts, officials ignore them. _ _ _ _ Back when Hoffenheim went on a huge spending spree in the 2nd Bundesliga and a Mainz official said it was a shame that clubs like Hoffenheim take one of the 36-professional-football-spots in Germany instead of clubs with a long tradition, Hopp asked the DFB to punish statements like these as harsh as racism. Hoffenheim had an audio system next to the away end to direct sound at those fans so they feel that home fans are freaking loud and whatnot which means they atleast accepted risk of injury. (The club said nobody knew about it, it was just the caretaker). Hoffenheim fans sang "Timo Werner, du Hurensohn" which is the same way Hopp was insulted and nobody cared. Players were victims of racism and nobody cared, an U16-team of Hertha BSC was repeatedly abused this way by their opponents a few months back. They left the field and while it was agreed on that the racial hatred was wrong, they still got the game ruled against them because rules. The dfb and Hopp repeatedly showed that they couldn't care less for injustice and insults happening. But when the fucking head of the premium-Bundesliga-sponsor is called Hurensohn (which atleast in my generation is almost meaningless as it was flying around left, right and centre in every school-pause - still it's sexist and nobody should be insulted) SKY, Sportschau (saturday evening Bundesliga recap), DFB, club officials are going crazy. Nobody was bringing the long history of fans vs Hopp up. But everybody went "holy shit few days after a racist killed 10 people you call somebody Hurensohn, that's not tolerable". That is totally off. Again. It's not okay to insult people even when emotions are way up during a football match but that's a stupid banner and it's gone after ten minutes. Compare that to jewish communities not even using stamps on their post to protect recipients, compare that to people not read as German (can you say this in english? = people might be german but because of black hair or a part of their name or them visiting a mosque, racists say the are "other") by racists and being killed for that, compare that to a party that sits in parliaments and talks shit about holocaust. It's always the same, next game teams show a banner "Against racism" but that is all the Association is willing to do UNTIL that billionaire is sad. And I know there is more: the crosshair. We could talk about that being part of popculture (Tatort = one of Germany's most followed criminal movie series) or as a standard-formula in literature/news (Im Fadenkreuz der Ermittler = in the investigators crosshair meaning to have an eye on somebody because he*she might have done something wrong). But I accept it's not the right time to do it. These days some insane person might just take it literally but I bet nobody in the stadium want's that. It's a protest against 50+1 and the association breaking their words because Hoffenheim and Leipzig broke that using sponsorship and what not without consequences. The thing is: Fans arguing that way against a concept hasn't worked. Nobody listens. But they want to be heard and as the Bayern fans explained yesterday after the match: Clubs, Association and mass media only notice the fans existence and them having an opinion when they use insults. e: Talks about a "black saturday" etc and the "ugliest face of football" are so dumb. So there are things which are wrong in football. Big news. I still don't see how this justifies any of this behaviour. And if you think insults and banners like this are normal today it just means that our society is going to shit and not that we should accept it in my opinion. I don't think they should be accepted. I think every single person should be protected the same way and that is not the case. Women, homosexuals, POC they did not receive the same attention when they were attacked over the years. If this now changes, I'll be super happy. But the association, the officials and part of the massmedia now have to prove that their fight for tolerance and against hatred is an honest one. We can agree on that of course. But it's not like the massmedia ignored the racist stuff. Everyone condemned the things that happened to the hertha player for example.
They did yes. Wasn't my intention to say that all institutions failed in all the cases.
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In all fairness it's also about how blatant they go about it. Can't remember a racist/sexist incident where they where bold/insane enough to hold up banners, probably because of the criminal implications alone.
It then becomes a lot harder to prosecute individuals if you are just going of chants.
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On March 01 2020 23:05 evilfatsh1t wrote:
WTF DE GEA
With De Gea's last two years and Kepa as a sub of Caballero... Spain NT goalkeeper position scares me.
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thank god we god fernandes. holy shit hes carrying us single handedly
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On March 01 2020 19:09 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2020 18:51 smr wrote:On March 01 2020 03:47 clusen wrote:On March 01 2020 03:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
You can still maintain that part of football culture without having so much of the negative stuff.
You don’t lose all the vibrancy of club songs, friendly mocking of rivals etc by clamping down on stuff like racial/homophobic abuse and whatnot.
The banners against Hopp reached a point where I don't have any understanding anymore, they lost all political meaning, they are not a response to a recent event, it's not some drunk dude yelling out profanities out of emotion - there is no surrounding element of excuse for me. tldr: In reality the banners have nothing to do with Hopp as a person. He is a symbol for what lots of fans think is wrong with football. The protests these last weeks are a protest against collective punishment which the DFB abandoned years ago. But now they started using it again because Hopp filed a suit against Dortmund fans. The fans act the way they did because every time they try to argue against concepts, officials ignore them. _ _ _ _ Back when Hoffenheim went on a huge spending spree in the 2nd Bundesliga and a Mainz official said it was a shame that clubs like Hoffenheim take one of the 36-professional-football-spots in Germany instead of clubs with a long tradition, Hopp asked the DFB to punish statements like these as harsh as racism. Hoffenheim had an audio system next to the away end to direct sound at those fans so they feel that home fans are freaking loud and whatnot which means they atleast accepted risk of injury. (The club said nobody knew about it, it was just the caretaker). Hoffenheim fans sang "Timo Werner, du Hurensohn" which is the same way Hopp was insulted and nobody cared. Players were victims of racism and nobody cared, an U16-team of Hertha BSC was repeatedly abused this way by their opponents a few months back. They left the field and while it was agreed on that the racial hatred was wrong, they still got the game ruled against them because rules. The dfb and Hopp repeatedly showed that they couldn't care less for injustice and insults happening. But when the fucking head of the premium-Bundesliga-sponsor is called Hurensohn (which atleast in my generation is almost meaningless as it was flying around left, right and centre in every school-pause - still it's sexist and nobody should be insulted) SKY, Sportschau (saturday evening Bundesliga recap), DFB, club officials are going crazy. Nobody was bringing the long history of fans vs Hopp up. But everybody went "holy shit few days after a racist killed 10 people you call somebody Hurensohn, that's not tolerable". That is totally off. Again. It's not okay to insult people even when emotions are way up during a football match but that's a stupid banner and it's gone after ten minutes. Compare that to jewish communities not even using stamps on their post to protect recipients, compare that to people not read as German (can you say this in english? = people might be german but because of black hair or a part of their name or them visiting a mosque, racists say the are "other") by racists and being killed for that, compare that to a party that sits in parliaments and talks shit about holocaust. It's always the same, next game teams show a banner "Against racism" but that is all the Association is willing to do UNTIL that billionaire is sad. And I know there is more: the crosshair. We could talk about that being part of popculture (Tatort = one of Germany's most followed criminal movie series) or as a standard-formula in literature/news (Im Fadenkreuz der Ermittler = in the investigators crosshair meaning to have an eye on somebody because he*she might have done something wrong). But I accept it's not the right time to do it. These days some insane person might just take it literally but I bet nobody in the stadium want's that. It's a protest against 50+1 and the association breaking their words because Hoffenheim and Leipzig broke that using sponsorship and what not without consequences. The thing is: Fans arguing that way against a concept hasn't worked. Nobody listens. But they want to be heard and as the Bayern fans explained yesterday after the match: Clubs, Association and mass media only notice the fans existence and them having an opinion when they use insults. e: Talks about a "black saturday" etc and the "ugliest face of football" are so dumb. So there are things which are wrong in football. Big news. I still don't see how this justifies any of this behaviour. And if you think insults and banners like this are normal today it just means that our society is going to shit and not that we should accept it in my opinion.
It's amazing how reactive the officials can be when the insults are targeted to a billionaire and how they don't give a shit when more serious offenses are suffered all year long by more common people. If you fail to see how it's scandalous, I don't know what to say.
On March 01 2020 23:13 haitike wrote:With De Gea's last two years and Kepa as a sub of Caballero... Spain NT goalkeeper position scares me.
Come on, France won with Lloris as a captain, I love him, he's great on his line and that's about it, no charisma, terrible foot play, terrible in one on one situations, can't intercept a cross, can't judge when to surge on the attacker.
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That Pickford save to redeem himself and suddenly Everton are up 2-1 yikes!
Oooo VAR
Ok VAR is like the new Fergie time. Sigurdsson was technically inferring with play haha
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terrible refereeing this whole game. foul for no handball on fred and that 2nd everton goal should have been given even from a utd fan
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That's a goal to me. Sigurdsson knew he was offside so he pulled his legs back and didn't touch the ball. He's lying on the floor so how much can really be blocking De Gea's line of sight.
edit: Oh Wolves beat Spurs too. They're more than in the Champions League hunt now by the way. Hmm 5 (online thanks to the virus) classes tomorrow watch the cup final or go to bed. Tough decisions life throws us.
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On March 02 2020 00:56 Greg_J wrote:
That's a goal to me. Sigurdsson knew he was offside so he pulled his legs back and didn't touch the ball. He's lying on the floor so how much can really be blocking De Gea's line of sight.
edit: Oh Wolves beat Spurs too. They're more than in the Champions League hunt now by the way. Hmm 5 (online thanks to the virus) classes tomorrow watch the cup final or go to bed. Tough decisions life throws us.
He is participating in the play tho from an offside position, I agree with you but as the rules are written it probably is offside and the correct call.
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On March 02 2020 00:00 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2020 19:09 justanothertownie wrote:On March 01 2020 18:51 smr wrote:On March 01 2020 03:47 clusen wrote:On March 01 2020 03:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
You can still maintain that part of football culture without having so much of the negative stuff.
You don’t lose all the vibrancy of club songs, friendly mocking of rivals etc by clamping down on stuff like racial/homophobic abuse and whatnot.
The banners against Hopp reached a point where I don't have any understanding anymore, they lost all political meaning, they are not a response to a recent event, it's not some drunk dude yelling out profanities out of emotion - there is no surrounding element of excuse for me. tldr: In reality the banners have nothing to do with Hopp as a person. He is a symbol for what lots of fans think is wrong with football. The protests these last weeks are a protest against collective punishment which the DFB abandoned years ago. But now they started using it again because Hopp filed a suit against Dortmund fans. The fans act the way they did because every time they try to argue against concepts, officials ignore them. _ _ _ _ Back when Hoffenheim went on a huge spending spree in the 2nd Bundesliga and a Mainz official said it was a shame that clubs like Hoffenheim take one of the 36-professional-football-spots in Germany instead of clubs with a long tradition, Hopp asked the DFB to punish statements like these as harsh as racism. Hoffenheim had an audio system next to the away end to direct sound at those fans so they feel that home fans are freaking loud and whatnot which means they atleast accepted risk of injury. (The club said nobody knew about it, it was just the caretaker). Hoffenheim fans sang "Timo Werner, du Hurensohn" which is the same way Hopp was insulted and nobody cared. Players were victims of racism and nobody cared, an U16-team of Hertha BSC was repeatedly abused this way by their opponents a few months back. They left the field and while it was agreed on that the racial hatred was wrong, they still got the game ruled against them because rules. The dfb and Hopp repeatedly showed that they couldn't care less for injustice and insults happening. But when the fucking head of the premium-Bundesliga-sponsor is called Hurensohn (which atleast in my generation is almost meaningless as it was flying around left, right and centre in every school-pause - still it's sexist and nobody should be insulted) SKY, Sportschau (saturday evening Bundesliga recap), DFB, club officials are going crazy. Nobody was bringing the long history of fans vs Hopp up. But everybody went "holy shit few days after a racist killed 10 people you call somebody Hurensohn, that's not tolerable". That is totally off. Again. It's not okay to insult people even when emotions are way up during a football match but that's a stupid banner and it's gone after ten minutes. Compare that to jewish communities not even using stamps on their post to protect recipients, compare that to people not read as German (can you say this in english? = people might be german but because of black hair or a part of their name or them visiting a mosque, racists say the are "other") by racists and being killed for that, compare that to a party that sits in parliaments and talks shit about holocaust. It's always the same, next game teams show a banner "Against racism" but that is all the Association is willing to do UNTIL that billionaire is sad. And I know there is more: the crosshair. We could talk about that being part of popculture (Tatort = one of Germany's most followed criminal movie series) or as a standard-formula in literature/news (Im Fadenkreuz der Ermittler = in the investigators crosshair meaning to have an eye on somebody because he*she might have done something wrong). But I accept it's not the right time to do it. These days some insane person might just take it literally but I bet nobody in the stadium want's that. It's a protest against 50+1 and the association breaking their words because Hoffenheim and Leipzig broke that using sponsorship and what not without consequences. The thing is: Fans arguing that way against a concept hasn't worked. Nobody listens. But they want to be heard and as the Bayern fans explained yesterday after the match: Clubs, Association and mass media only notice the fans existence and them having an opinion when they use insults. e: Talks about a "black saturday" etc and the "ugliest face of football" are so dumb. So there are things which are wrong in football. Big news. I still don't see how this justifies any of this behaviour. And if you think insults and banners like this are normal today it just means that our society is going to shit and not that we should accept it in my opinion. It's amazing how reactive the officials can be when the insults are targeted to a billionaire and how they don't give a shit when more serious offenses are suffered all year long by more common people. If you fail to see how it's scandalous, I don't know what to say.
Ok, then show me when a non-billionaire got singled out like this (there were incidents at almost every single match this weekend) and noone did anything. I bet you can't. I also do not think that any of this makes the reaction of officials unwarranted. Even if you were right this would just mean that this should have happened sooner.
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On March 02 2020 01:35 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2020 00:00 nojok wrote:On March 01 2020 19:09 justanothertownie wrote:On March 01 2020 18:51 smr wrote:On March 01 2020 03:47 clusen wrote:On March 01 2020 03:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
You can still maintain that part of football culture without having so much of the negative stuff.
You don’t lose all the vibrancy of club songs, friendly mocking of rivals etc by clamping down on stuff like racial/homophobic abuse and whatnot.
The banners against Hopp reached a point where I don't have any understanding anymore, they lost all political meaning, they are not a response to a recent event, it's not some drunk dude yelling out profanities out of emotion - there is no surrounding element of excuse for me. tldr: In reality the banners have nothing to do with Hopp as a person. He is a symbol for what lots of fans think is wrong with football. The protests these last weeks are a protest against collective punishment which the DFB abandoned years ago. But now they started using it again because Hopp filed a suit against Dortmund fans. The fans act the way they did because every time they try to argue against concepts, officials ignore them. _ _ _ _ Back when Hoffenheim went on a huge spending spree in the 2nd Bundesliga and a Mainz official said it was a shame that clubs like Hoffenheim take one of the 36-professional-football-spots in Germany instead of clubs with a long tradition, Hopp asked the DFB to punish statements like these as harsh as racism. Hoffenheim had an audio system next to the away end to direct sound at those fans so they feel that home fans are freaking loud and whatnot which means they atleast accepted risk of injury. (The club said nobody knew about it, it was just the caretaker). Hoffenheim fans sang "Timo Werner, du Hurensohn" which is the same way Hopp was insulted and nobody cared. Players were victims of racism and nobody cared, an U16-team of Hertha BSC was repeatedly abused this way by their opponents a few months back. They left the field and while it was agreed on that the racial hatred was wrong, they still got the game ruled against them because rules. The dfb and Hopp repeatedly showed that they couldn't care less for injustice and insults happening. But when the fucking head of the premium-Bundesliga-sponsor is called Hurensohn (which atleast in my generation is almost meaningless as it was flying around left, right and centre in every school-pause - still it's sexist and nobody should be insulted) SKY, Sportschau (saturday evening Bundesliga recap), DFB, club officials are going crazy. Nobody was bringing the long history of fans vs Hopp up. But everybody went "holy shit few days after a racist killed 10 people you call somebody Hurensohn, that's not tolerable". That is totally off. Again. It's not okay to insult people even when emotions are way up during a football match but that's a stupid banner and it's gone after ten minutes. Compare that to jewish communities not even using stamps on their post to protect recipients, compare that to people not read as German (can you say this in english? = people might be german but because of black hair or a part of their name or them visiting a mosque, racists say the are "other") by racists and being killed for that, compare that to a party that sits in parliaments and talks shit about holocaust. It's always the same, next game teams show a banner "Against racism" but that is all the Association is willing to do UNTIL that billionaire is sad. And I know there is more: the crosshair. We could talk about that being part of popculture (Tatort = one of Germany's most followed criminal movie series) or as a standard-formula in literature/news (Im Fadenkreuz der Ermittler = in the investigators crosshair meaning to have an eye on somebody because he*she might have done something wrong). But I accept it's not the right time to do it. These days some insane person might just take it literally but I bet nobody in the stadium want's that. It's a protest against 50+1 and the association breaking their words because Hoffenheim and Leipzig broke that using sponsorship and what not without consequences. The thing is: Fans arguing that way against a concept hasn't worked. Nobody listens. But they want to be heard and as the Bayern fans explained yesterday after the match: Clubs, Association and mass media only notice the fans existence and them having an opinion when they use insults. e: Talks about a "black saturday" etc and the "ugliest face of football" are so dumb. So there are things which are wrong in football. Big news. I still don't see how this justifies any of this behaviour. And if you think insults and banners like this are normal today it just means that our society is going to shit and not that we should accept it in my opinion. It's amazing how reactive the officials can be when the insults are targeted to a billionaire and how they don't give a shit when more serious offenses are suffered all year long by more common people. If you fail to see how it's scandalous, I don't know what to say. Ok, then show me when a non-billionaire got singled out like this (there were incidents at almost every single match this weekend) and noone did anything. I bet you can't. I also do not think that any of this makes the reaction of officials unwarranted. Even if you were right this would just mean that this should have happened sooner.
And today quiet a few of those "incidents" were absolutely laughable. A banner with a rhyme that said: Hey DFB, in this case you are applying your rules a lot harsher than usually got a 3rd-league-game interrupted. Referees read the name Hopp and just interrupt the game even if there wasn't any insult. Sky read an e-mail from Hopp in which he basically accuses a fanzine of escalating the situation (they met 10 years ago and afterwards nothing happened for a while but hey let's bring that up in this situation right now because why not kill any fanmade content?). Apparently they visited a football-event together agreed, that their wasn't anything noteworthy to talk about and both agreed that they wouldn't talk about it. Now 10 years later in this situations Hopp breaks that promise. What a good man he is. The fanzine never published anything about that event so how should a meeting that nobody knew about spark hatred? Makes no sense.
All the banners I saw from today wren't directed at Hopp but at the DFB. Yes his name might've been involved but not in an insultig way but to create the context so the association get's what it's all about.
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I don't really care if hopp is a great guy or not. There were multiple banners showing him in crosshairs on this matchday and also in the past. Maybe you think this is acceptable, I don't. I also don't think this discussion is leading anywhere so I will go back to lurking.
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EPT
