On December 13 2021 18:46 FreakyDroid wrote: I think a simple solution that would be fairer for all drivers/teams is to simply red flag a race when its 5-10 laps til the end regardless of how severe is the incident. Instead of a VSC or SC, just red flag it, allow teams to pit and let them race for the remaining laps.
It would have worked in this spesific scenario, but I can easily think of several scenarios where that would backfire as well. Red flag is a free pit stop after all, which hurts everyone who pitted before it. If Max had been faster and caught up to Lewis this race, preparing to overtake him, and then they Red Flagged it, giving Lewis a free pit stop and new tires, we'd all be screaming foul play as well right now
Yeah I guess you're right, it would just be a reverse situation where the driver that didnt pit prior to the SV gets an advantage, which doesn't make it any fairer.
The only unknown for me in this situation is when was the message from FIA to not let lapped cars overtake the SC communicated to the teams and whether Mercedes decided to keep Lewis out because of it, which later changed to let them overtake. I can see this as a point of contention if the change of decision hurt their pitting strategy. But if for instance Mercedes knew that overtaking will take place for the lapped cars and still decided to keep Lewis on the old hard tires, they have no one else to blame but themselves. I'm still not sure how this went down between FIA and Mercedes, so I've been trying to get more info about it, but still cant find anything concrete.
Mercedes didn't make any mistakes IMO, the VSC stop didn't matter and Lewis was only losing a couple of tenths per lap to Max, even if they both started behind a SC with those tyres I think he would have held Max off.
With the last SC there was what 5 laps left, its going to take at least 3 laps to clear the incident, the rules then say all cars may overtake or non that are lapped. The safety car is then going to come in a lap after not the same lap. So your probably thinking its going to end under a safety car or lewis is going to have 5 cars between him and Max with green racing for 1 or 2 laps.
Lewis can probably pull enough of a gap with those 5 cars to survive a lap definitely and say 50:50 for 2 laps. In that scenario it is not worth giving up track position, especially if your also thinking they might Red flag this as they did in Saudi.
Of course if you absolutely know they are going to bend all the rules to start the race with the contenders next to each other then they would Pit, but that's so arbitrary and unforeseeable.
It's a mistake based on precedent. Masi has always fought to have get the safety car out of the way as quickly as possible, so the race can end with at least 1 or 2 laps of racing. He's done similar stuff numerous times, and Mercedes should have known he'd do it again. Doubly so when it's the literal last race of the season, a title deciding race, with possibly the most spectators all year. He was always going to push to get that one last racing lap.
I do agree with what some people mentioned earlier, it would have been better if he communicated his intentions to the teams, so they wouldn't have to guess whether the race would restart.
Whatever his intentions he shouldn't be breaking rules to allow a proper restart, with Mercedes knowing the rules they made the right decision not to pit. The legal options being:
Red Flag - Both get to change tyres so its not ideal but you have a last few laps on equal tyres.
Don't let lapped cars overtake - Hamilton can probably build enough of a gap to survive 1 or 2 laps, 3 laps would probably be too much. But better to risk that than pitting and trying to risk an overtake with Max who has made it absolutely clear he will crash with Lewis.
Lapped Cars overtake - It was a good bet 5 laps wasn't enough time to clear the cars and it wasn't knowing the rule says the safety car has to wait an additional lap before coming in. You would have also had Sainz right behind Verstappen who may have caused him problems while trying to overtake Lewis.
You could never predict what he actual did, completely unique situation to solely favour Max.
Still no news for Merc, the longer it goes the more I feel like they are taking it all the way.
He didn't break the rules tho. He basically has carte blanc to do whatever he wants during safety car, as stated in the rules. Any rules that follows the line "Can do whatever the fuck he wants" are more guidelines than anything else (Not saying I don't disagree with the way things are btw. Should make that clear. I think this is stupid as hell)
Again, the precedent has been set. Masi has always, consistently, pushed to restart the race when there's a safety car near the end. Mercedes knew this, and chose to bet on the fact that he wouldn't
It is a dubious interpretation that Masi has Carte Blanche to do what he wants, most people think that is not what the rules say. The lines quoted by the FIA are about him having final authority over the Clerk of the Track not on all procedures.
The Race Director shall have overriding authority in the following matters… [other listed items] The use of the safety car.
Couldn’t immediately find a text version of the whole thing so I typed the relevant portion, but it certainly sounds like Masi has the power to say “actually we’re gonna do this different thing with the safety car this time.” Doesn’t mean it’s good or fair or equitable, and it’s certainly worth having a conversation about what we think should be the procedure going forward, but I don’t think “Masi didn’t actually have the authority” has much textual support.
On December 13 2021 18:46 FreakyDroid wrote: I think a simple solution that would be fairer for all drivers/teams is to simply red flag a race when its 5-10 laps til the end regardless of how severe is the incident. Instead of a VSC or SC, just red flag it, allow teams to pit and let them race for the remaining laps.
It would have worked in this spesific scenario, but I can easily think of several scenarios where that would backfire as well. Red flag is a free pit stop after all, which hurts everyone who pitted before it. If Max had been faster and caught up to Lewis this race, preparing to overtake him, and then they Red Flagged it, giving Lewis a free pit stop and new tires, we'd all be screaming foul play as well right now
Yeah I guess you're right, it would just be a reverse situation where the driver that didnt pit prior to the SV gets an advantage, which doesn't make it any fairer.
The only unknown for me in this situation is when was the message from FIA to not let lapped cars overtake the SC communicated to the teams and whether Mercedes decided to keep Lewis out because of it, which later changed to let them overtake. I can see this as a point of contention if the change of decision hurt their pitting strategy. But if for instance Mercedes knew that overtaking will take place for the lapped cars and still decided to keep Lewis on the old hard tires, they have no one else to blame but themselves. I'm still not sure how this went down between FIA and Mercedes, so I've been trying to get more info about it, but still cant find anything concrete.
Mercedes didn't make any mistakes IMO, the VSC stop didn't matter and Lewis was only losing a couple of tenths per lap to Max, even if they both started behind a SC with those tyres I think he would have held Max off.
With the last SC there was what 5 laps left, its going to take at least 3 laps to clear the incident, the rules then say all cars may overtake or non that are lapped. The safety car is then going to come in a lap after not the same lap. So your probably thinking its going to end under a safety car or lewis is going to have 5 cars between him and Max with green racing for 1 or 2 laps.
Lewis can probably pull enough of a gap with those 5 cars to survive a lap definitely and say 50:50 for 2 laps. In that scenario it is not worth giving up track position, especially if your also thinking they might Red flag this as they did in Saudi.
Of course if you absolutely know they are going to bend all the rules to start the race with the contenders next to each other then they would Pit, but that's so arbitrary and unforeseeable.
It's a mistake based on precedent. Masi has always fought to have get the safety car out of the way as quickly as possible, so the race can end with at least 1 or 2 laps of racing. He's done similar stuff numerous times, and Mercedes should have known he'd do it again. Doubly so when it's the literal last race of the season, a title deciding race, with possibly the most spectators all year. He was always going to push to get that one last racing lap.
I do agree with what some people mentioned earlier, it would have been better if he communicated his intentions to the teams, so they wouldn't have to guess whether the race would restart.
Whatever his intentions he shouldn't be breaking rules to allow a proper restart, with Mercedes knowing the rules they made the right decision not to pit. The legal options being:
Red Flag - Both get to change tyres so its not ideal but you have a last few laps on equal tyres.
Don't let lapped cars overtake - Hamilton can probably build enough of a gap to survive 1 or 2 laps, 3 laps would probably be too much. But better to risk that than pitting and trying to risk an overtake with Max who has made it absolutely clear he will crash with Lewis.
Lapped Cars overtake - It was a good bet 5 laps wasn't enough time to clear the cars and it wasn't knowing the rule says the safety car has to wait an additional lap before coming in. You would have also had Sainz right behind Verstappen who may have caused him problems while trying to overtake Lewis.
You could never predict what he actual did, completely unique situation to solely favour Max.
Still no news for Merc, the longer it goes the more I feel like they are taking it all the way.
He didn't break the rules tho. He basically has carte blanc to do whatever he wants during safety car, as stated in the rules. Any rules that follows the line "Can do whatever the fuck he wants" are more guidelines than anything else (Not saying I don't disagree with the way things are btw. Should make that clear. I think this is stupid as hell)
Again, the precedent has been set. Masi has always, consistently, pushed to restart the race when there's a safety car near the end. Mercedes knew this, and chose to bet on the fact that he wouldn't
It is a dubious interpretation that Masi has Carte Blanche to do what he wants, most people think that is not what the rules say. The lines quoted by the FIA are about him having final authority over the Clerk of the Track not on all procedures.
Rules 15.3 states
The clerk of the course shall work in permanent consultation with the Race Director. The Race Director shall have overriding authority in the following matters and the clerk of the course may give orders in respect of them only with his express agreement:
a) The control of practice, sprint qualifying session and the race, adherence to the timetable and, if he deems it necessary, the making of any proposal to the stewards to modify the timetable in accordance with the Code or Sporting Regulations.
b) The stopping of any car in accordance with the Code or Sporting Regulations.
c) The stopping of practice, suspension of a sprint qualifying session or suspension of the race in accordance with the Sporting Regulations if he deems it unsafe to continue and ensuring that the correct restart procedure is carried out.
d) The starting procedure.
e) The use of the safety car.
There's no dubious interpretation possible here. He has Carte Blanche over the use of the safety car
It says the clerk of the course shall work in permanent consultant with the Race Director. The Race director has overriding authority (over the clerk of the course) in the following matters.
Nicholas Bamber, an associate in regulatory and commercial dispute resolution at Penningtons Manches Cooper LLP, believes Mercedes have good grounds to challenge the decision to reject their protest.
“Race director Michael Masi and the stewards’ interpretation of the FIA’s 2021 Sporting Regulations has been called into question by racing drivers, pundits and legal commentators alike,” he told RaceFans.
“In response to Mercedes’ protest, they concluded that article 15.3 gives the race director carte blanche to control the use of the safety car and overrides the procedure for the safety car stipulated at Article 48.12.
“This interpretation seems – on its face – to be inconsistent with a plain language view of the regulations. It also directly contradicts Michael Masi’s approach in similar circumstances at the 2020 Eifel Grand Prix where he stated ‘There is a requirement in the sporting regulations to wave all the lapped cars past’ [emphasis added] before the safety car returns to the pit lane and the race recommences ‘therefore the safety car period was a bit longer than what we would have normally wanted’ – i.e. the race director cannot overrule the appropriate application of the regulations, including the full application of article 48.12.”
This could be considered a breach of the International Sporting Code, said Bamber. “Article 1.1.1 of the 2021 FIA International Sporting Code makes clear that the regulations are to be enforced ‘based on the fundamental principles of safety and sporting fairness’. Part of sporting fairness revolves around consistency of application of the rules of the sport. As such, there appears to be a good legal basis upon which Mercedes could seek to appeal.” ...
The article gets into more than just that but it's quite interesting. It gets to the heart of the matter though: Masi threw out precedent and used a broadly worded rule to completely ignore an entire set of safety car rules that F1 has followed for years. Not only that, but he directly contradicted what he himself said on the topic in the past.
How is the sport supposed to operate in a way that is fair if entire swaths of the rule book are subject to the race director's whims? How are teams supposed to trust that the races are being run fairly?
edit: I suppose I should say I don't really care whether or not Mercedes does this appeal, and I do think Verstappen deserves the championship. My beef is entirely with Masi and the entire race direction/stewarding system because it has been completely unacceptable this year. Usually there are one or two instances in a year where the stewarding or race direction may cause a bit of controversy. This year it was basically every other race something would come up and there was so little consistency from one race to another that it made it seem like some drivers were operating on different rule sets than others. I think what has happened this year has been hugely damaging to the sport's reputation.
On December 15 2021 03:07 Zaros wrote: It says the clerk of the course shall work in permanent consultant with the Race Director. The Race director has overriding authority (over the clerk of the course) in the following matters.
That's a pretty logic leap way of interpreting the rules tbh. The following line is
and the clerk of the course may give orders in respect of them only with his express agreement
It's pretty clear that the 'overriding authority' means over the rules, as the Clerk doesn't have any authority on his own to begin with; he can only give orders with the express agreement of the Race Director. If this is not what the rules were meant to present, then they are horribly written.
As Ben said, I’ve missed watching a lot this season and have consumed much of my F1 fix via this thread.
What is absolutely striking is there seems to be some controversy nearly ever race on stewarding, with the consistent gripe being well, a lack of consistency.
Perhaps social media discourse really amplifies controversies that would have dissipated in the standard news cycle back in the late 90s/early 2000s when I watched a lot with my da.
But back then I really only remember the odd big stewarding farrago per season, now it seems maddeningly frequent
On December 15 2021 08:06 WombaT wrote: As Ben said, I’ve missed watching a lot this season and have consumed much of my F1 fix via this thread.
What is absolutely striking is there seems to be some controversy nearly ever race on stewarding, with the consistent gripe being well, a lack of consistency.
Perhaps social media discourse really amplifies controversies that would have dissipated in the standard news cycle back in the late 90s/early 2000s when I watched a lot with my da.
But back then I really only remember the odd big stewarding farrago per season, now it seems maddeningly frequent
I've watched for a fair number of years now, and while there's undoubtfully been a few head scratching decisions made over the years, the current complete lack of consistency from Masi and the Stewards are at an all time extreme. It's never been as bad as this season.
He changed the rules to not have a boring final race that will end under a safety car. Comparing to, say 1998, when on the last race in Suzuka Schumacher starts from pole and is only 4 points behind Hakkinen, both are fighting for the championship. Schumacher botches the start and he is immediately sent to the back of the grid. Under Masi, this would be forgiven most likely. Rules are rules and they should be respected regardless if its the first or last race, first or last lap and regardless which of the drivers are involved.
Due to technical nature of F1, rules will always be complex. Rigid application of rules will lead to some non-sensical outcomes to casual fans. Overly-flexible interpretation of rules will annoy purists. Both interests have to be balanced, for the sport to continue being relevant in this age where esports threaten to overtake traditional sports.
There will always be controversial decisions even at the highest level. That's what get fans excited and talking. Just like how most of us love to whine about our favourite games here. Some degree of assymmetrical imbalance is expected of any sport (club spending in football, car engineering in F1, race in BW/SC2). Only question is, has this questionable call 'broke' the game in the eyes of most purists and casual fans to kill their interests for next season? I don't know. But it's surely not yet to the unbearable toxic levels of broodlord-infestor (or the long-suffering Toss premier title drought)...
Casual fans probably turned off their TV after the race went on with their lives. It's what I did initially. I only saw the controversy afterwards when I read reddit and this thread.
On December 15 2021 03:07 Zaros wrote: It says the clerk of the course shall work in permanent consultant with the Race Director. The Race director has overriding authority (over the clerk of the course) in the following matters.
That's a pretty logic leap way of interpreting the rules tbh. The following line is
and the clerk of the course may give orders in respect of them only with his express agreement
It's pretty clear that the 'overriding authority' means over the rules, as the Clerk doesn't have any authority on his own to begin with; he can only give orders with the express agreement of the Race Director. If this is not what the rules were meant to present, then they are horribly written.
Usually these rules are designed for the referee to be able to act in edge cases for safety or something. They're not supposed to be used to override the rules to race one more lap.
While the ending was super spicy, it could've been even better, imagine this scenario:
Everything happens exactly as it did Sunday until the Latifi crash and the SC comes out, then: > Merc tells HAM to come in for softs, Redbull lets VER stay out and he takes the lead in the GP > The unlapping shenanigans plays out as on Sunday and we start the final lap with Lewis on softs right behind Max on 20 lap old hards. Max has no chance but defends hard, they both crash out. > Carlos Sainz wins his 1st race > Yuki and Gasly p2 and p3 > Max world champion but Merc protests heavily due to the double DNF
Oh what could've been... xD
Ofc Perez would not have been taken out of the race in the above scenario so it's not entirely correct but let's just ignore that detail.
Hopefully Carlos can win a race next season, the guy deserves it.
On December 15 2021 16:27 RvB wrote: Casual fans probably turned off their TV after the race went on with their lives. It's what I did initially. I only saw the controversy afterwards when I read reddit and this thread.
On December 15 2021 03:07 Zaros wrote: It says the clerk of the course shall work in permanent consultant with the Race Director. The Race director has overriding authority (over the clerk of the course) in the following matters.
That's a pretty logic leap way of interpreting the rules tbh. The following line is
and the clerk of the course may give orders in respect of them only with his express agreement
It's pretty clear that the 'overriding authority' means over the rules, as the Clerk doesn't have any authority on his own to begin with; he can only give orders with the express agreement of the Race Director. If this is not what the rules were meant to present, then they are horribly written.
Usually these rules are designed for the referee to be able to act in edge cases for safety or something. They're not supposed to be used to override the rules to race one more lap.
Yes, and that's why the decision should stick. Nothing pisses off casual fans more than a sport which changes results of a game (especially a final) days or weeks later (only exceptions are extreme cases like bribery or fraud). Otherwise, fans will be thinking "Great, they just wasted my time watching the game, all my excitement was for nothing". Same as movies for casual viewers. Everything should be resolved at the end (only exceptions are movies with intentional ambiguous endings). Watching something end one way, only to be told later it should end the other way is just bad entertainment. Casuals don't like feeling cheated.
Finality is important in any sport. Let's just say the rules really say Masi got it wrong. And the appeal lets Lewis wins. Then the same fans will be thinking "Why bother watching a sport with rules so complicated that even the top referee can get it wrong?".
On December 15 2021 16:27 RvB wrote: Casual fans probably turned off their TV after the race went on with their lives. It's what I did initially. I only saw the controversy afterwards when I read reddit and this thread.
On December 15 2021 03:07 Zaros wrote: It says the clerk of the course shall work in permanent consultant with the Race Director. The Race director has overriding authority (over the clerk of the course) in the following matters.
That's a pretty logic leap way of interpreting the rules tbh. The following line is
and the clerk of the course may give orders in respect of them only with his express agreement
It's pretty clear that the 'overriding authority' means over the rules, as the Clerk doesn't have any authority on his own to begin with; he can only give orders with the express agreement of the Race Director. If this is not what the rules were meant to present, then they are horribly written.
Usually these rules are designed for the referee to be able to act in edge cases for safety or something. They're not supposed to be used to override the rules to race one more lap.
While I think we'd all agree that would be reasonable, I'm not entirely convinced that the rules aren't written vaguely like this for the express purpose of letting Masi make decisions that would be the best 'for the show'
I dont think it was an agenda to steer the result from the FIA, Masi just got bullied into fucking up. The only outcome of any appeal will be him losing his job, which I think he should personally. Doesn't really mean anything to Lewis though, its quite possible that was his last chance to get an 8th.
It's quite possible as well Mercedes is going to dominate the sport for years to come and this year will just be that one drivers' championship they didn't get in a sea of silver (and black). He still has to beat Russell then though, which might prove difficult. With how strong they looked at the end I'm kinda dreading it.
Indeed. People keep talking about new regulations and how it might shake up the 'power ranking' between teams. But at the same time the engines are set in stone for multiple years right, so the whole of next season Mercedes will have the dominant engine? They made the most out of Bottas when it comes to limit testing that engine as well lol.
Have to hope that teams like McLaren/Alpine/Ferrari spent the bigger half of this year developing their 2022 car and somehow get competitive, I don't think Red Bull will be able to challenge Merc again next year.
EPT
