EPTAs for the Merc this year, I don't think they had any flaw with the car, what they did have is a forced change because of the FIA. Only two cars followed that particular design direction, Merc and Aston Martin, the latter being a country mile off how competitive they were last year.
Formula 1 Discussion - Page 92
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Aristodemus
England1993 Posts
As for the Merc this year, I don't think they had any flaw with the car, what they did have is a forced change because of the FIA. Only two cars followed that particular design direction, Merc and Aston Martin, the latter being a country mile off how competitive they were last year. | ||
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Penev
28481 Posts
On December 14 2021 03:08 Aristodemus wrote: Every time there is a huge change like this a new team tends to be at the front. I personally hope its McLaren too. As for the Merc this year, I don't think they had any flaw with the car, what they did have is a forced change because of the FIA. Only two cars followed that particular design direction, Merc and Aston Martin, the latter being a country mile off how competitive they were last year. I actually want Ferrari to improve the most I think. McLaren too for sure and I've always been an Alonso fan plus I really like the Alpine-blue livery. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8080 Posts
On December 14 2021 01:48 aseq wrote: Isn't it possible to just electronically stop all the cars when the race leader decides so? Cars going faster would take longer to get to a standstill, compensating speed for distance. Cars that would end up too close to the incident would get a pass to park 50 m further up, but apart from that, distances are preserved. Tyres would cool quickly, of course, so I'm not sure what that will mean when you get the green light again. But surely a system behind a slow car that drives a full number of laps isn't optimal either. Not in F1, no. These things are extremely precisely made to work within a narrow heat window. If they stand still too long, the engines are going to overheat and break, the brakes and the tires are going to freeze and become like driving on ice. If they turn off the engines, they can't get them started again, as they require hot fluids pumped into them just to even get moving. These things just aren't made to stand still. You might have noticed whenever the cars are stationary for a longer period of time, they always put on tire blankets, and blow dry ice into the engines. VSC (Virtual Safety Car) is kinda what you're looking for, where every driver is locked into 50km/h, which means they don't bunch up, and there's less of an advantage to be gained. They use this when they can, such as when the car they're extracting isn't sitting on the track itself. But if there's debris and/or an entire car on the track, you simply can't have cars going around unsupervised. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8080 Posts
On December 14 2021 02:26 Zaros wrote: Mercedes didn't make any mistakes IMO, the VSC stop didn't matter and Lewis was only losing a couple of tenths per lap to Max, even if they both started behind a SC with those tyres I think he would have held Max off. With the last SC there was what 5 laps left, its going to take at least 3 laps to clear the incident, the rules then say all cars may overtake or non that are lapped. The safety car is then going to come in a lap after not the same lap. So your probably thinking its going to end under a safety car or lewis is going to have 5 cars between him and Max with green racing for 1 or 2 laps. Lewis can probably pull enough of a gap with those 5 cars to survive a lap definitely and say 50:50 for 2 laps. In that scenario it is not worth giving up track position, especially if your also thinking they might Red flag this as they did in Saudi. Of course if you absolutely know they are going to bend all the rules to start the race with the contenders next to each other then they would Pit, but that's so arbitrary and unforeseeable. It's a mistake based on precedent. Masi has always fought to have get the safety car out of the way as quickly as possible, so the race can end with at least 1 or 2 laps of racing. He's done similar stuff numerous times, and Mercedes should have known he'd do it again. Doubly so when it's the literal last race of the season, a title deciding race, with possibly the most spectators all year. He was always going to push to get that one last racing lap. I do agree with what some people mentioned earlier, it would have been better if he communicated his intentions to the teams, so they wouldn't have to guess whether the race would restart. | ||
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
On December 14 2021 05:32 Excludos wrote: It's a mistake based on precedent. Masi has always fought to have get the safety car out of the way as quickly as possible, so the race can end with at least 1 or 2 laps of racing. He's done similar stuff numerous times, and Mercedes should have known he'd do it again. Doubly so when it's the literal last race of the season, a title deciding race, with possibly the most spectators all year. He was always going to push to get that one last racing lap. I do agree with what some people mentioned earlier, it would have been better if he communicated his intentions to the teams, so they wouldn't have to guess whether the race would restart. Whatever his intentions he shouldn't be breaking rules to allow a proper restart, with Mercedes knowing the rules they made the right decision not to pit. The legal options being: Red Flag - Both get to change tyres so its not ideal but you have a last few laps on equal tyres. Don't let lapped cars overtake - Hamilton can probably build enough of a gap to survive 1 or 2 laps, 3 laps would probably be too much. But better to risk that than pitting and trying to risk an overtake with Max who has made it absolutely clear he will crash with Lewis. Lapped Cars overtake - It was a good bet 5 laps wasn't enough time to clear the cars and it wasn't knowing the rule says the safety car has to wait an additional lap before coming in. You would have also had Sainz right behind Verstappen who may have caused him problems while trying to overtake Lewis. You could never predict what he actual did, completely unique situation to solely favour Max. Still no news for Merc, the longer it goes the more I feel like they are taking it all the way. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6591 Posts
When i saw the safety car that late i thought the race will end with it and that will be the worst possible ending. So i dont think Masi took the wrong decision.Well it was painful to hear Toto saying this is not right etc.But if im honest it doesnt make sense to have all those cars ahead of Max.As sad as it is for Lewis the destiny just didnt want him to win this time.I dont believe in crazy theories here. That crash in the end is just unfortunate. | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
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Sermokala
United States13931 Posts
On December 14 2021 08:34 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: just relistened to radio between Hamilton and Bono. Lewis knew it was going to end badly, he asked a few times Bono, if it was risky to stay out and why they didn't pit him. Redbull gambled really really boldly and won, apparently playing it safe was destined to be the wrong choice... This is 100% Merc's mistake (with a safety car ending 1 lap too early bullshit as a cherry on top ofc) If they had pitted to get new tires during the safety car Max would have taken position and won. The only option they had was to keep lewis out. Masi decided to let only the cars between max and lewis out so max wouldn't have had anything between him and an easy overtake to win the championship. | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
On December 14 2021 08:48 Sermokala wrote: If they had pitted to get new tires during the safety car Max would have taken position and won. The only option they had was to keep lewis out its not a guarantee max wins. it was a guarantee lewis doesnt unless there is no more racing. what am i missing? also, during vsc they also had option to pit. your argument was literally proven wrong in reality. | ||
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Lmui
Canada6213 Posts
They could not have pitted during the actual safety car, because it would've guaranteed that they finish behind Max and possibly even Perez. | ||
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
On December 14 2021 08:50 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: its not a guarantee max wins. it was a guarantee lewis doesnt unless there is no more racing. what am i missing? also, during vsc they also had option to pit. your argument was literally proven wrong in reality. 5 laps is a very short time to clear that kind of incident and let the lapped cars through (within the rules) you would be absolutely stupid to give up track position for that, Red Bull had been playing opposites all day they would be stupid not to take the track position if it was offered. Bear in mind this comes in a season where Max has proving he is willing crash someone out while defending (also meaning Max wins the Title.) Race could have started with those 5 cars in between, Hamilton probably ends up with a 3 second gap going into the first corner which would be enough to win. Or the race ends under a safety car simple as that but Masi makes up his own rules. | ||
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Penev
28481 Posts
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Penev
28481 Posts
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FreakyDroid
Macedonia2616 Posts
On December 14 2021 08:34 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: just relistened to radio between Hamilton and Bono. Lewis knew it was going to end badly, he asked a few times Bono, if it was risky to stay out and why they didn't pit him. Redbull gambled really really boldly and won, apparently playing it safe was destined to be the wrong choice... This is 100% Merc's mistake (with a safety car ending 1 lap too early bullshit as a cherry on top ofc) I listened to this as well just a minute ago, Mercedes had the chance to pit him, when the SC car is deployed Lewis is right there in front of the pitlane and Bono tells him to stay out, to which Lewis disagrees. Then a few seconds later Max who was behind him enters the pit. Had Lewis pitted there, pretty sure he wins even if they start wheel to wheel like in the last lap. I mean its not a guarantee, but judging by how faster was the Merc that night, I think its the safer bet. Also this https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/formula-one-toto-wolff-told-me-i-deserved-to-win-says-max-verstappen-mcs6cbbz7#Echobox=1639389959 Seems Mercedes is going to drop the appeal. Imo that's the right call. | ||
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Aristodemus
England1993 Posts
Any appeal won't change the result, Max is champion. | ||
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aseq
Netherlands3977 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
Mercedes has made several weird, often too conservative strategic calls this year that have hurt them but I don't think this particular call was one of those. Masi and the stewards have made bizarre and sometimes contradictory decisions this year that have thrown out all precedence and there's no way for teams to account for that. Mercedes was just the latest team to be hit by this. It feels unfair to Mercedes because it is unfair. Masi's type of decision making is not conducive to making a sport seem fairly or transparently reffed. If someone's decisions frequently require breaking out a rule book and figuring out layers of rule precedence to figure out if what they decided was even legal (not whether it was right but whether it was even a valid decision in context to the rules), then they're not making reasonable decisions grounded in a deep understanding of the rule book. As much as people used to get frustrated with Charlie Whiting, when he did make a controversial decision he'd almost always be able to immediately point to a rule that would transparently make his decision make sense, and he would explain why he did what he did. That's not the case with Masi. Masi's decisions are frequently on the cusp of being in contradiction to the rules, and he frequently refuses to explain why he made the decision he did. This safety car decision required not only ignoring several rules that have been practised for years in F1, but also relied on making a twisted interpretation a general rule that was seemingly written for safety reasons, not for "we must improve the show" reasons. It sucks and if this type of decision making continues it's going to do a lot of harm to F1 as a sport. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Back to F1: I'm no expert. But if I were to place bets, I would wager on Masi making the exact call he made. That's my objective take as a sports fan. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8080 Posts
On December 14 2021 07:12 Zaros wrote: Whatever his intentions he shouldn't be breaking rules to allow a proper restart, with Mercedes knowing the rules they made the right decision not to pit. The legal options being: Red Flag - Both get to change tyres so its not ideal but you have a last few laps on equal tyres. Don't let lapped cars overtake - Hamilton can probably build enough of a gap to survive 1 or 2 laps, 3 laps would probably be too much. But better to risk that than pitting and trying to risk an overtake with Max who has made it absolutely clear he will crash with Lewis. Lapped Cars overtake - It was a good bet 5 laps wasn't enough time to clear the cars and it wasn't knowing the rule says the safety car has to wait an additional lap before coming in. You would have also had Sainz right behind Verstappen who may have caused him problems while trying to overtake Lewis. You could never predict what he actual did, completely unique situation to solely favour Max. Still no news for Merc, the longer it goes the more I feel like they are taking it all the way. He didn't break the rules tho. He basically has carte blanc to do whatever he wants during safety car, as stated in the rules. Any rules that follows the line "Can do whatever the fuck he wants" are more guidelines than anything else (Not saying I don't disagree with the way things are btw. Should make that clear. I think this is stupid as hell) Again, the precedent has been set. Masi has always, consistently, pushed to restart the race when there's a safety car near the end. Mercedes knew this, and chose to bet on the fact that he wouldn't edit: After watching a Youtube video going through the rules (here, if you want), it seems that Masi perhaps didn't have the authority to call a Red Flag without being able to properly prove that the cars can't navigate the track safely without it. Then again, as I stated earlier, Masi, according to the rulebook, can break his own rules when it comes to Safety car and suspension of the race.. So maybe that doesn't matter | ||
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Excludos
Norway8080 Posts
On December 14 2021 22:54 aseq wrote: If Merc pits Ham, Max doesn't, and they finish the race behind the SC...they look like idiots.The whole idea of the drivers not knowing whether they're still going to race and for how many laps is just flawed. It means strategy just turns into guesswork. Strategy is always guesswork. Teams go long to bet on SC or Red Flags all the time, knowing it will give them a cheap or free pit stop. That's part of racing. If you look at it the other way, Mercedes gambled hard that there wouldn't be an SC, and made no effort to guard against it by pitting earlier when they had the chance during the VSC. Then they gambled hard that the race wouldn't restart, against precedent set by Masi that they would. It wasn't just some easy hindsight thing either, I saw Mercedes fans screaming that Lewis was being screwed over by his own team when those calls were made. Sure, I agree it would have been better if Masi had stated his intentions earlier, which I'm sure would have made the choice easier for Mercedes. But even without it, they gambled against precedent, and lost. | ||
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