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2015 - 2016 Football Thread - Page 378

Forum Index > Sports
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Espers
Profile Joined August 2009
United Kingdom606 Posts
May 24 2016 23:22 GMT
#7541
2011 was Pep's best team and Enrique's side certainly isn't as good to me
Rebs
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Pakistan10726 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-24 23:26:12
May 24 2016 23:25 GMT
#7542
On May 25 2016 08:22 Espers wrote:
2011 was Pep's best team and Enrique's side certainly isn't as good to me


That was Peak Barca, and no one is saying that its better. Just not much better.

Just because English teams suck doesnt mean that other teams didnt get better. CL is still CL.
nayumi
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Australia6499 Posts
May 24 2016 23:58 GMT
#7543
On May 24 2016 19:58 DucK- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2016 19:44 evilfatsh1t wrote:
if woodward, fergie and any other influential member of the board manages to make mourinho change his past ways and play the football we were known for and manage to incorporate youth into the team, then im gonna be a happy man.
the chances of this happening are low though and the chances of him actually succeeding should he change his ways even lower. in that case, no matter how successful mou is ill be pretty bitter about how we have a manager that is pretty much the opposite of what united valued


I always felt that mourinho isn't as anti football as his critics paint him to be. His Madrid team was a very high scoring team that counter attacked at breathtaking pace. I think most of these opinions were due to his approach against bigger oppositions.

I recall his first Chelsea team had a bulldozing style. They don't tear teams apart with flair like barca, but they overwhelm with strength. I don't remember not liking that Chelsea team.

His second Chelsea team though was simply not filled with his kind of players. The centre midfield were way too soft. There were too many lightweight players. The team was unsuited to counter attacking football. Them and mourinho were just not a good fit and hence the results.

People have been living in the illusion that Mourinho is anti-football primarily because of his games against Barcelona. It's not fair because every single team that goes up against Barcelona does the exact same thing, those who don't often end up getting eaten alive. If anything I personally find Pep's Barcelona is the most anti-football team ever existed. To me football is about both attacking and defending, you attack and score, if you fail the other team attacks and you defend, rinse and repeat. I just don't buy the whole "if you can't attack, just pass the ball around until you see a chance" mentality that Pep adopted. Sure it worked wonder, and I'm not saying it was an easy thing to pull off but that doesn't make football any more exciting, at least from my own point of view.

As an United fan I'm not concerned about Mourinho's football. He tends to build a solid defense and midfield and fast wingers to control the pace and run over opponents with few chances. People didn't seem to mind the infamous Ferguson's 1-0 wins during his last couple of years at United, I don't see how it's fair not to judge Mourinho on the same basis. However, he seriously needs to tone down a bit on how he handles other conflicts, especially off pitch. He often created unnecessary conflict which in turn put much more pressure on the team and himself.

Also Mourinho needs money and decision making power to get and play the players that he wants. In Real and Chelsea cases, the clubs owners often interfered with whom to buy and to field. But you didn't see that during his Inter Milan's days, hence the Champions League title.
Sugoi monogatari onii-chan!
Rebs
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Pakistan10726 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-25 05:18:08
May 25 2016 00:11 GMT
#7544
On May 25 2016 08:58 nayumi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2016 19:58 DucK- wrote:
On May 24 2016 19:44 evilfatsh1t wrote:
if woodward, fergie and any other influential member of the board manages to make mourinho change his past ways and play the football we were known for and manage to incorporate youth into the team, then im gonna be a happy man.
the chances of this happening are low though and the chances of him actually succeeding should he change his ways even lower. in that case, no matter how successful mou is ill be pretty bitter about how we have a manager that is pretty much the opposite of what united valued


I always felt that mourinho isn't as anti football as his critics paint him to be. His Madrid team was a very high scoring team that counter attacked at breathtaking pace. I think most of these opinions were due to his approach against bigger oppositions.

I recall his first Chelsea team had a bulldozing style. They don't tear teams apart with flair like barca, but they overwhelm with strength. I don't remember not liking that Chelsea team.

His second Chelsea team though was simply not filled with his kind of players. The centre midfield were way too soft. There were too many lightweight players. The team was unsuited to counter attacking football. Them and mourinho were just not a good fit and hence the results.

People have been living in the illusion that Mourinho is anti-football primarily because of his games against Barcelona. It's not fair because every single team that goes up against Barcelona does the exact same thing, those who don't often end up getting eaten alive. If anything I personally find Pep's Barcelona is the most anti-football team ever existed. To me football is about both attacking and defending, you attack and score, if you fail the other team attacks and you defend, rinse and repeat. I just don't buy the whole "if you can't attack, just pass the ball around until you see a chance" mentality that Pep adopted. Sure it worked wonder, and I'm not saying it was an easy thing to pull off but that doesn't make football any more exciting, at least from my own point of view.

As an United fan I'm not concerned about Mourinho's football. He tends to build a solid defense and midfield and fast wingers to control the pace and run over opponents with few chances. People didn't seem to mind the infamous Ferguson's 1-0 wins during his last couple of years at United, I don't see how it's fair not to judge Mourinho on the same basis. However, he seriously needs to tone down a bit on how he handles other conflicts, especially off pitch. He often created unnecessary conflict which in turn put much more pressure on the team and himself.

Also Mourinho needs money and decision making power to get and play the players that he wants. In Real and Chelsea cases, the clubs owners often interfered with whom to buy and to field. But you didn't see that during his Inter Milan's days, hence the Champions League title.


wooooaooo hold on.. are you seriously making the argument that if a team doesnt find any openings then they should give the ball away? Because what else are you supposed to do ? Just chuck it up and pray that a Fellaini will get you knockdowns into the arms of a waiting Rooney (see how well thats worked the last 2 years?)


Its not like they slow the pace of the game down on purpose. If a team wont press and overload and try to win the ball back then the progress will naturally be slower. There is a reason they offer so much space on the counter attack. They arent exactly passing it back and forth in their own third. Its extremely high risk. How can you possibly call playing "with the ball" in an aggressive capacity anti football ?

I can see why people may dislike that style and thats fine, but you cant sit there and say that the team that is trying to keep the ball and score is NOT the protagonist. Infact current Barca is often route 1ish because they sometimes go into Italian mode of chucking it up to their front 3 and letting them win games by themselves. But really that just means they bought into the pragmatism and while trying to keep their identity.

A great example of the sort of game where either team did nothing was Ajax and Atletico Madrid. It was 120 minutes of the most painful football you can imagine thats what footy is like when teams arent kick and rush and arent exactly offensively inclined.

Also with respect to winning the CL at Inter, he won the CL because he is a good coach and his style of play giving the way he sets his teams up will win every so often. Nothing more nothing less. He could easily have won with his other clubs, sometimes it just doesn't work out.

And on the point of Ferguson, Fergies famous 1-0's were the result of a bad team over performing because they had an RVP or Rooney that carried them for half a season and then they managed to hit a hot streak. He knew it wasnt going to last so he bounced. He gets credit for getting a bad team to play above its level. Thats why people dont mind it, people arent stupid.

Mourinho has been consistently responsible for squeezing the flair out of some great prospects. Just look at Oscar, his first years he was so Brazillian it wasnt even funny, it was scary how good he could have been, and then he got systemed into a jobber. Mata didnt and got cut.

The only entertaining team Mou ever made was the first half of his second coming at Chelsea. That team played. The previous ones were just over talented man beasts running people over with discipline and the occasional bout of aggression.
Dante08
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Singapore4198 Posts
May 25 2016 02:03 GMT
#7545
Pep's Barca might be better than the current one but definitely not by much. Also in the end all that matters is results so if the current Barca manages to win more trophies than Pep's Barca, how do you argue that Pep's was better?
WillyWanker
Profile Joined December 2011
France1915 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-25 02:26:52
May 25 2016 02:24 GMT
#7546
On May 25 2016 08:25 Rebs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2016 08:22 Espers wrote:
2011 was Pep's best team and Enrique's side certainly isn't as good to me


That was Peak Barca, and no one is saying that its better. Just not much better.

Just because English teams suck doesnt mean that other teams didnt get better. CL is still CL.

Best year indeed <3 I remember how the Villa signing made so much sense you could already predict a big domination that year.

For me Luis Enrique's Barça is just a tiny bit inferior to Pep's. Pep could change his tactics when things weren't going well or to secure a game (like fielding Keita to strengthen the midfield). He played 4-3-3 but also 3-3-4, 3-4-3, even sometimes 5 forwards. I think that diversity allowed Barça to always have an answer.

Luis Enrique is betting on the 3 front guys + Iniesta to simply crush every defense they face. It's been working well until now though (thanks Busquets) xD Even when they lost or got eliminated, they always had many chances and just lacked efficiency. His strength is also that he managed to control the ego of Messi, Suarez and Neymar, which I had no hope for before last season. I wonder if that's going to last though, that's my biggest fear for that team... For me they're still a level above the rest.
Rebs
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Pakistan10726 Posts
May 25 2016 02:40 GMT
#7547
On May 25 2016 11:24 WillyWanker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2016 08:25 Rebs wrote:
On May 25 2016 08:22 Espers wrote:
2011 was Pep's best team and Enrique's side certainly isn't as good to me


That was Peak Barca, and no one is saying that its better. Just not much better.

Just because English teams suck doesnt mean that other teams didnt get better. CL is still CL.

Best year indeed <3 I remember how the Villa signing made so much sense you could already predict a big domination that year.

For me Luis Enrique's Barça is just a tiny bit inferior to Pep's. Pep could change his tactics when things weren't going well or to secure a game (like fielding Keita to strengthen the midfield). He played 4-3-3 but also 3-3-4, 3-4-3, even sometimes 5 forwards. I think that diversity allowed Barça to always have an answer.

Luis Enrique is betting on the 3 front guys + Iniesta to simply crush every defense they face. It's been working well until now though (thanks Busquets) xD Even when they lost or got eliminated, they always had many chances and just lacked efficiency. His strength is also that he managed to control the ego of Messi, Suarez and Neymar, which I had no hope for before last season. I wonder if that's going to last though, that's my biggest fear for that team... For me they're still a level above the rest.


oh God the Neymar whining.. I remember that,
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8930 Posts
May 25 2016 04:56 GMT
#7548
i consider mou to be a defensive coach because of the way he sets his teams up against strong opposition, like some people have already said. he may be able to get his teams to play much more effectively than van gaal does, but his teams dont play with the flair and aggression that saf's teams were known for. not even mou's rm played with saf-esque flair. it was a quick, effective yet systematic counter attacking team.
nayumi
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Australia6499 Posts
May 25 2016 05:23 GMT
#7549
On May 25 2016 09:11 Rebs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2016 08:58 nayumi wrote:
On May 24 2016 19:58 DucK- wrote:
On May 24 2016 19:44 evilfatsh1t wrote:
if woodward, fergie and any other influential member of the board manages to make mourinho change his past ways and play the football we were known for and manage to incorporate youth into the team, then im gonna be a happy man.
the chances of this happening are low though and the chances of him actually succeeding should he change his ways even lower. in that case, no matter how successful mou is ill be pretty bitter about how we have a manager that is pretty much the opposite of what united valued


I always felt that mourinho isn't as anti football as his critics paint him to be. His Madrid team was a very high scoring team that counter attacked at breathtaking pace. I think most of these opinions were due to his approach against bigger oppositions.

I recall his first Chelsea team had a bulldozing style. They don't tear teams apart with flair like barca, but they overwhelm with strength. I don't remember not liking that Chelsea team.

His second Chelsea team though was simply not filled with his kind of players. The centre midfield were way too soft. There were too many lightweight players. The team was unsuited to counter attacking football. Them and mourinho were just not a good fit and hence the results.

People have been living in the illusion that Mourinho is anti-football primarily because of his games against Barcelona. It's not fair because every single team that goes up against Barcelona does the exact same thing, those who don't often end up getting eaten alive. If anything I personally find Pep's Barcelona is the most anti-football team ever existed. To me football is about both attacking and defending, you attack and score, if you fail the other team attacks and you defend, rinse and repeat. I just don't buy the whole "if you can't attack, just pass the ball around until you see a chance" mentality that Pep adopted. Sure it worked wonder, and I'm not saying it was an easy thing to pull off but that doesn't make football any more exciting, at least from my own point of view.

As an United fan I'm not concerned about Mourinho's football. He tends to build a solid defense and midfield and fast wingers to control the pace and run over opponents with few chances. People didn't seem to mind the infamous Ferguson's 1-0 wins during his last couple of years at United, I don't see how it's fair not to judge Mourinho on the same basis. However, he seriously needs to tone down a bit on how he handles other conflicts, especially off pitch. He often created unnecessary conflict which in turn put much more pressure on the team and himself.

Also Mourinho needs money and decision making power to get and play the players that he wants. In Real and Chelsea cases, the clubs owners often interfered with whom to buy and to field. But you didn't see that during his Inter Milan's days, hence the Champions League title.


wooooaooo hold on.. are you seriously making the argument that if a team doesnt find any openings then they should give the ball away? Because what else are you supposed to do ? Just chuck it up and pray that a Fellaini will get you knockdowns into the arms of a waiting Rooney (see how well thats worked the last 2 years?)


Its not like they slow the pace of the game down on purpose. If a team wont press and overload and try to win the ball back then the progress will naturally be slower. There is a reason they offer so much space on the counter attack. They arent exactly passing it back and forth in their final third. Its extremely high risk. How can you possibly call playing "with the ball" in an aggressive capacity anti football ?

I can see why people may dislike that style and thats fine, but you cant sit there and say that the team that is trying to keep the ball and score is NOT the protagonist. Infact current Barca is often route 1ish because they sometimes go into Italian mode of chucking it up to their front 3 and letting them win games by themselves. But really that just means they bought into the pragmatism and while trying to keep their identity.

A great example of the sort of game where neither team did nothing was Ajax and Atletico Madrid. It was 120 minutes of the most painful football you can imagine thats what footy is like when teams arent kick and rush and arent exactly offensively inclined.

Also with respect to winning the CL at Inter, he won the CL because he is a good coach and his style of play giving the way he sets his teams up will win every so often. Nothing more nothing less. He could easily have won with his other clubs, sometimes it just doesn't work out.

And on the point of Ferguson, Fergies famous 1-0's were the result of a bad team over performing because they had an RVP or Rooney that carried them for half a season and then they managed to hit a hot streak. He knew it wasnt going to last so he bounced. He gets credit for getting a bad team to play above its level. Thats why people dont mind it, people arent stupid.

Mourinho has been consistently responsible for squeezing the flair out of some great prospects. Just look at Oscar, his first years he was so Brazillian it wasnt even funny, it was scary how good he could have been, and then he got systemed into a jobber. Mata didnt and got cut.

The only entertaining team Mou ever made was the first half of his second coming at Chelsea. That team played. The previous ones were just over talented man beasts running people over with discipline and the occasional bout of aggression.


Look I'm not saying Pep's style is wrong, it's just not what I'd like to turn on my TV every now and then to enjoy and thus not football by my own definition. If there is no opening, you force your way through it (yes even if that means you try your luck with a long cross and hope that your forwards get the ball), you just don't pass it around and wait. That's pretty much similar to how Mayweather boxed against Pacman, or like how Alliance dominated an era of Dota with split push. Don't get me wrong I consider Pep's Barcelona to be one of the best squad to ever walk this earth. Like Mayweather and Alliance, they actually figured out the game (at least during that period) and be the best at it. But that doesn't mean it's entertaining, at least in my book. Maybe I used the term "anti-football" a bit loose in that context.

On May 25 2016 13:56 evilfatsh1t wrote:
i consider mou to be a defensive coach because of the way he sets his teams up against strong opposition, like some people have already said. he may be able to get his teams to play much more effectively than van gaal does, but his teams dont play with the flair and aggression that saf's teams were known for. not even mou's rm played with saf-esque flair. it was a quick, effective yet systematic counter attacking team.


United only played attacking with flair and aggression with the Beckham-Scholes generation. Ever since Ronaldo became the pillar of the Reds, SAF has switched to a more calculated and systematic counter-attack football, heavily reliant on the solid back four with Vidic-Rio duo and Van Der Sar in front of goal, which was very similar to how Real operated during Mourinho's era, or even now under Zidane.
Sugoi monogatari onii-chan!
WillyWanker
Profile Joined December 2011
France1915 Posts
May 25 2016 05:52 GMT
#7550
On May 25 2016 14:23 nayumi wrote:
Look I'm not saying Pep's style is wrong, it's just not what I'd like to turn on my TV every now and then to enjoy and thus not football by my own definition. If there is no opening, you force your way through it (yes even if that means you try your luck with a long cross and hope that your forwards get the ball), you just don't pass it around and wait. That's pretty much similar to how Mayweather boxed against Pacman, or like how Alliance dominated an era of Dota with split push. Don't get me wrong I consider Pep's Barcelona to be one of the best squad to ever walk this earth. Like Mayweather and Alliance, they actually figured out the game (at least during that period) and be the best at it. But that doesn't mean it's entertaining, at least in my book. Maybe I used the term "anti-football" a bit loose in that context.

If you make the comparison between Mayweather, Alliance and Guardiola's team, you're not making the right one I believe.
Mayweather would be the catenaccio style (at least this fight), where he defends perfectly and scores just 1 goal to win. Alliance's "rat style" would be considered defensive/counter-attack too. Guardiola's style is very offensive, creative, and entertaining.

The problem is team that play against them have to park the bus, making the game "boring" because it's just calculated attack vs static defense. And like any other less "organized" team, Guardiola's team would start crossing the ball and taking more risks when it's absolutely needed (aka last 15mn of a CL tie where they need to score for example, just look at Bayern vs Juve, Bayern vs Atletico this year; Barça vs Inter the year Mou won the CL, etc.). You could argue that they should do that for 90mn but that would be suicidal and would make the team completely unbalanced (English teams have this style of play and look at the results of the big teams).

Whenever they faced a team that didn't park the bus, you had highly entertaining games (just watch the games a few years ago against Madrid, Valencia, Sevilla, ...).
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6324 Posts
May 25 2016 07:12 GMT
#7551
His analysis is wrong anyway. They're not passing and waiting. They're passing to make the opponent move and create gaps which they can exploit.
Twisted
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Netherlands13554 Posts
May 25 2016 08:40 GMT
#7552
On May 25 2016 09:11 Rebs wrote:

A great example of the sort of game where either team did nothing was PSV and Atletico Madrid. It was 120 minutes of the most painful football you can imagine thats what footy is like when teams arent kick and rush and arent exactly offensively inclined.



Quick little FYP: it was PSV against Atletico. Ajax wouldn't stand back and wait, they'd probably attack and lose 1-2 or whatever
Moderator
sharkie
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Austria18762 Posts
May 25 2016 08:46 GMT
#7553
Ibra would fit well into the current ManUtd squad imo. He crushes lower table teams like scrubs and that is how you win league titles anyway.
Pandemona *
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-25 08:59:46
May 25 2016 08:58 GMT
#7554
He is 35 and was lazy for PSG, see quarter final champions league. I am not too convinced he will be any use in the premier league, or at least not to the level he has been. He doesn't seem the player who is the fittest of fit like Giggs was for example playing in his 40s.

I guess we will find out what happens in a few months time, but i think this will fail. By fail as well i mean the amount of money given to the guy is money you could give any major talent in Europe who has not got 12-18months left that the highest level.
ModeratorTeam Liquid Football Thread Guru! - Chelsea FC ♥
nayumi
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Australia6499 Posts
May 25 2016 09:57 GMT
#7555
On May 25 2016 14:52 WillyWanker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2016 14:23 nayumi wrote:
Look I'm not saying Pep's style is wrong, it's just not what I'd like to turn on my TV every now and then to enjoy and thus not football by my own definition. If there is no opening, you force your way through it (yes even if that means you try your luck with a long cross and hope that your forwards get the ball), you just don't pass it around and wait. That's pretty much similar to how Mayweather boxed against Pacman, or like how Alliance dominated an era of Dota with split push. Don't get me wrong I consider Pep's Barcelona to be one of the best squad to ever walk this earth. Like Mayweather and Alliance, they actually figured out the game (at least during that period) and be the best at it. But that doesn't mean it's entertaining, at least in my book. Maybe I used the term "anti-football" a bit loose in that context.

If you make the comparison between Mayweather, Alliance and Guardiola's team, you're not making the right one I believe.
Mayweather would be the catenaccio style (at least this fight), where he defends perfectly and scores just 1 goal to win. Alliance's "rat style" would be considered defensive/counter-attack too. Guardiola's style is very offensive, creative, and entertaining.


I'm not comparing the playstyle but rather their respective position in each sport. And that even though they were all the bests during their time, they were not entertaining.
Sugoi monogatari onii-chan!
Pandemona *
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
May 25 2016 10:13 GMT
#7556
Mascherano reportedly interested in "a new challenge". Think he is working his way towards a reunion with Pep at the Etihad?
ModeratorTeam Liquid Football Thread Guru! - Chelsea FC ♥
lprk
Profile Joined September 2013
Poland2249 Posts
May 25 2016 10:24 GMT
#7557
Sport and di Marzio were reporting Juventus.
Pandemona *
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
May 25 2016 10:27 GMT
#7558
Oh right, huh, bit of a waste that. Might be a Barca ploy to help with the Dybala transfer though.
ModeratorTeam Liquid Football Thread Guru! - Chelsea FC ♥
Pandemona *
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
May 25 2016 11:02 GMT
#7559
Some news!


ModeratorTeam Liquid Football Thread Guru! - Chelsea FC ♥
Kleinmuuhg
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Vanuatu4091 Posts
May 25 2016 11:11 GMT
#7560
45 Mio Euros for xhaka, great talent
This is our town, scrub
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