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On June 21 2015 07:45 Boucot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2015 07:44 sneirac wrote:On June 21 2015 07:40 Boucot wrote:On June 21 2015 07:38 sneirac wrote:On June 21 2015 07:28 Boucot wrote:On June 21 2015 07:24 sneirac wrote:On June 21 2015 07:21 Racket wrote:On June 21 2015 07:20 sneirac wrote:On June 21 2015 07:17 Racket wrote:On June 21 2015 07:11 sneirac wrote:
That was a free goal if the man in the middle actually keeps up. Was your earlier vitriol correct and it was Higuain? It was messi, but makes no sense to go faster, that would reduce the angle of the pass and make it harder to di maria. Staying just a bit behind lets him give messi a clean pass so he can resolve better and score. Staying just a bit behind would have been great, but he fell so far behind that he wasn't an option anymore. Anyway, it was di maria so even with messi being further ahead he would have not made the pass... can't argue with that actually Edit: On June 21 2015 07:21 Boucot wrote:On June 21 2015 07:20 Racket wrote:On June 21 2015 07:18 Boucot wrote:
I don't get how Jamaica was chosen to participate in Copa America. Weren't there more competitive teams ? :/ In fact they were fewer. Mexico is also invited when they weren't in the past. No I mean couldn't they find a team more competitive than Jamaica to fill the spots ? They invited Japan (they pulled out in 2011 because of the earthquake), after they declined China was asked and China pulled out because of a scheduling conflict with WC 2018 qualifying OK. The fact that Gold Cup is right after doesn't help, I'd have loved to see Costa Rica for example after their good World Cup last year. It's just not schedulable. Afc, Caf and Uefa all had WC qualifying, NA has the Gold Cup. Ofc would not really have improved the competition I guess. :p The best idea to solve it would be to have the Gold Cup every 4 years and have 6 NA teams participate in a 16 team Copa America. Or just combine the American confederations and get it over with. They should have invited us, we're already qualified for Euro.  Would actually have been a good idea, but I just looked it up, they have never hat a Uefa team there. That might be a conscious decision. I guess that has more to do with clubs not willing to have their players injured.
Does figure in, but it might also be a deliberate decision to separate themselves from European football. And I don't think France would have showed up with their A team anyway.
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That Jamaican player booted that free kick like I would have.
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On June 21 2015 07:49 sneirac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2015 07:45 Boucot wrote:On June 21 2015 07:44 sneirac wrote:On June 21 2015 07:40 Boucot wrote:On June 21 2015 07:38 sneirac wrote:On June 21 2015 07:28 Boucot wrote:On June 21 2015 07:24 sneirac wrote:On June 21 2015 07:21 Racket wrote:On June 21 2015 07:20 sneirac wrote:On June 21 2015 07:17 Racket wrote:
[quote]
It was messi, but makes no sense to go faster, that would reduce the angle of the pass and make it harder to di maria. Staying just a bit behind lets him give messi a clean pass so he can resolve better and score. Staying just a bit behind would have been great, but he fell so far behind that he wasn't an option anymore. Anyway, it was di maria so even with messi being further ahead he would have not made the pass... can't argue with that actually Edit: On June 21 2015 07:21 Boucot wrote:On June 21 2015 07:20 Racket wrote:On June 21 2015 07:18 Boucot wrote:
I don't get how Jamaica was chosen to participate in Copa America. Weren't there more competitive teams ? :/ In fact they were fewer. Mexico is also invited when they weren't in the past. No I mean couldn't they find a team more competitive than Jamaica to fill the spots ? They invited Japan (they pulled out in 2011 because of the earthquake), after they declined China was asked and China pulled out because of a scheduling conflict with WC 2018 qualifying OK. The fact that Gold Cup is right after doesn't help, I'd have loved to see Costa Rica for example after their good World Cup last year. It's just not schedulable. Afc, Caf and Uefa all had WC qualifying, NA has the Gold Cup. Ofc would not really have improved the competition I guess. :p The best idea to solve it would be to have the Gold Cup every 4 years and have 6 NA teams participate in a 16 team Copa America. Or just combine the American confederations and get it over with. They should have invited us, we're already qualified for Euro. Would actually have been a good idea, but I just looked it up, they have never hat a Uefa team there. That might be a conscious decision. I guess that has more to do with clubs not willing to have their players injured. Does figure in, but it might also be a deliberate decision to separate themselves from European football. And I don't think France would have showed up with their A team anyway.
Well, our A-team isn't even able to beat Albania so I'm not sure that would have been a wise decision to accept it in the first place. xD
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Miller save
Edit:
On June 21 2015 07:52 Boucot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2015 07:49 sneirac wrote:On June 21 2015 07:45 Boucot wrote:On June 21 2015 07:44 sneirac wrote:On June 21 2015 07:40 Boucot wrote:On June 21 2015 07:38 sneirac wrote:On June 21 2015 07:28 Boucot wrote:On June 21 2015 07:24 sneirac wrote:On June 21 2015 07:21 Racket wrote:On June 21 2015 07:20 sneirac wrote:
[quote]
Staying just a bit behind would have been great, but he fell so far behind that he wasn't an option anymore. Anyway, it was di maria so even with messi being further ahead he would have not made the pass... can't argue with that actually Edit: On June 21 2015 07:21 Boucot wrote:On June 21 2015 07:20 Racket wrote:
[quote]
In fact they were fewer. Mexico is also invited when they weren't in the past. No I mean couldn't they find a team more competitive than Jamaica to fill the spots ? They invited Japan (they pulled out in 2011 because of the earthquake), after they declined China was asked and China pulled out because of a scheduling conflict with WC 2018 qualifying OK. The fact that Gold Cup is right after doesn't help, I'd have loved to see Costa Rica for example after their good World Cup last year. It's just not schedulable. Afc, Caf and Uefa all had WC qualifying, NA has the Gold Cup. Ofc would not really have improved the competition I guess. :p The best idea to solve it would be to have the Gold Cup every 4 years and have 6 NA teams participate in a 16 team Copa America. Or just combine the American confederations and get it over with. They should have invited us, we're already qualified for Euro. Would actually have been a good idea, but I just looked it up, they have never hat a Uefa team there. That might be a conscious decision. I guess that has more to do with clubs not willing to have their players injured. Does figure in, but it might also be a deliberate decision to separate themselves from European football. And I don't think France would have showed up with their A team anyway. Well, our A-team isn't even able to beat Albania so I'm not sure that would have been a wise decision to accept it in the first place. xD
Send your U-17 
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Well, this is the same argentina that got to the WC finals, boring but effective
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In the last 10 minutes Jamaica has been more dangerous than Argentina. That's quite a feat.
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On June 21 2015 08:05 Faruko wrote:
Well, this is the same argentina that got to the WC finals, boring but effective
Well, the coach is different, they also play a bit different... still boring.
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And the most stupid yellow card of the year goes to...
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As boring as rat doto. Good night.
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This argentina team is terrible, horrible.
Really shows how much Pep has helped spain and germany by coaching their core players in barca and bayern.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On June 21 2015 08:27 Steveling wrote:
This argentina team is terrible, horrible.
Really shows how much Pep has helped spain and germany by coaching their core players in barca and bayern.
It's not terrible, horrible. It's actually quite decent.
It's not beautiful though. Compared to Barcelona, I think Mascherano in Defensive Midfield makes the world of difference. The counteract and the creativity just isn't there.
The other thing that seems lacking is the full back play and Pastore. Feels like Argentina should get more out of Pastore.
And everyone needs to work on their lobs.
Between Higuain going over the crossbar, Di Maria hitting it weak and off target, and Messi hitting it low, they missed out on three goals.
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On June 21 2015 08:42 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2015 08:27 Steveling wrote:
This argentina team is terrible, horrible.
Really shows how much Pep has helped spain and germany by coaching their core players in barca and bayern. It's not terrible, horrible. It's actually quite decent. It's not beautiful though. Compared to Barcelona, I think Mascherano in Defensive Midfield makes the world of difference. The counteract and the creativity just isn't there. The other thing that seems lacking is the full back play and Pastore. Feels like Argentina should get more out of Pastore. And everyone needs to work on their lobs. Between Higuain going over the crossbar, Di Maria hitting it weak and off target, and Messi hitting it low, they missed out on three goals.
Names and transfer values don't play football.
This argentina has barely won or drew against, paraguay, jamaica, iran, bosnia and switcherland. They are terrible.
If lets say garay, rojo, masch, messi and pastore were all in the same team coached by a great manager I'm sure they would be 3 times better.
It's not a coincidence that spain/barca and germany/bayern successes are linked.
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Sanya12364 Posts
If you mean to say that they look like they've only played a week together.
Yes. That's exactly how it looks.
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Yeah well thats to be expected. It looks like a collection of big players than a team. But you can say that for most national teams.
The level we are used to at club level cant be replicated unless a good chunk of the squads play either in the same team or in the same/similar systems.
There is not much you can do about it. We are spoiled with club football but international football has its place obviously.
Just the methodology of how you make these guys play together is a bit different and Im not sure what the key there is.
Low just replicated whatever Bayern did and Del Bosque just kept playing his (quite dull) double pivot with often a false nine through most of 2010 and 2012 so those are your solutions there.
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I'd like to point out Chile is a pretty consolidated team with the 11 starter playing on VERY different clubs and systems. Some players from Chile flopped the entire season at their teams (Eduardo Vargas, Mauricio Isla) and others didn't do particularly well (Gonzalo Jara, Marcelo Diaz, Valdivia) but on NT they are sick good players, or at least the best alternative for the team over others who had good seasons who stay at the bench (Angelo Henriquez, Mauricio Pinilla, David Pizarro, Matias Fernandez). Vidal and Alexis are good on both fronts.
Taking down Spain on WC was an incredible feat at the time, Spain didn't suck at all (obviously it wasn't at peak performance but still)
Go Ro8 !
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United States97277 Posts
Did Argentina just take it easy since they were going through or did they just underperform?
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How easy is it to be the best player in the world playing for Barça? If there is one thing I'd like to see is Messi playing for a team like ManU, PSG or Chelsea while he is at his prime (or at least while he's still incredibly good, as I think his peak was that 92 goal season). Barça is a team where players like Neymar and Pedro can score dobletes and hattricks multiple times in the season (when Messi is not around).
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For those who can read spanish:
Article
For those who can't I made a TL'DR:
These statistics, even if not all of them seems to be well calculculated in my eyes, were taken from the WC 2010 until WC 2014 inclusive.
1) Messi has scored and assisted per game more than any other player, only Ronaldo is near him.
2) Taking into account all of those players who shoot as much as he does, he is the one that scores the most staying above the tendency by the largest margin.
3) Not only he is in second place in amount of shots on goal but he is also the one with the best scoring expectation per shot. In addition he surpasses this individual expectation by the largest difference.
4) Score percentage given the distance of the shot, in order Messi - Ronaldo - Others:
- Outside the penalty area: 12,1% - 4,1% - 3,1%
- Inside the penalty area: 21,9% - 18,5% - 13,1%
- Inside the goalkeeper box: 47,8% - 46,2% - 38,2%
5) Shooting from outside of the penalty area is Messi, with 21 goals in 173 shots, more effective than everyone else, including Ronaldo with 17 goals in more than 400 shots.
6) Messi scores more alone than with help, and in both situations his effectiveness is way above everyone else. The only one besides him that is better alone is Tevez, who didn't even play the WC 2014.
7) Messi not only attempts to dribble opponents more than anyone else but also he is the most effective at it.
8) Messi has a best relation between goals per game and assists per game, only Ronaldo is near him in goals and he is only surpassed in assists by Ribery and Özil. And Özil assisted Ronaldo.
9) Of all forward from Barcelona, Messi is the most focused in passing the ball forward. Out of his eleven thousand passes, he completed 83,8%, and 46,8% of those eleven thousand were forward passes of which he completed an outstanding 74,4%. The second with most forward passes was Villa with 34,2%.
10) This graphic is quite ugly and confusing. It is the percentage of long passes completed against the percentage of long passes that end up in a successful play. Here we can see a few players better than him but he is the one with the most attempts per game. Given that. if Messi and Ronaldo play one game, Ronaldo would make 7 long passes and 4 of them would end up in a successful play when Messi would make 15 long passes with 8 of them being successful plays, achieving this way double the opportunities. I chose Ronaldo because they usually play around the same amount of matches.
11) Here Messi shows a significant relation between through passes and through assists.
12) In this one the relation between the amount of goals per game and forward passes on 3/4 of the field shows Messi right at the top.
13) Another complicated one. Shows how much better Barcelona gets when Messi is involved in a play. First in shots on goal and then on assisted shots. The best in both.
14) Once again the best. Here we can see the relation between goals from his team (scored by him or his teammates) and the percentage of shots in which he was involved.
15) If we relate ball possession with amount of goals and assists, Messi is once again at the top.
16) The last one shows that Messi is above the tendency of a forward getting involved defensively when his team does not have the ball in possession in relation with goals scored when his team has the ball.
Conclusion:
Even when the amount of games played by the national team is a quite small sample, Messi performs better in the national team than Ronaldo in Real Madrid. Not said by me but by the numbers shown in the article. Let alone Barcelona.
Something funny written at the end by this guy:
If Messi from Barcelona and Messi from the national team were two different persons, taking into account from 2010 to 2014, a quite large probability exists of both players being the best in the world.
I find super sad that Messi can't play in his natural position and is forced to carry ten more people so hard. And then blamed like it was only his fault.
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One can indeed ask more of Messi because he is Messi, and one has to agree that Argentina has (based on names alone) a top3 team, easily.
Its not like he is forced to play with 10 rocks at his side also, their mid-forward players are by far one of the best. For example, if you take Neymar and Dani Alves out of Brazil, give them a green shirt and you could easily pass them as Bulgary without Stoichkov (No offense), they are terrible, easily the worst Brazil ive seen (I mean, they are still brazil but you get what i mean...).
And while i do believe this is more od a coach problem, i cant believe those guys are force to play like that.
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Those numbers doesnt add mmm
2010: 10 goals on the qualis
CA2011: 0 goals
WC2014: 4 goals (its done untill the group phase but he didnt do anything else on the playoff so it counts)
Where does the other 5 come from ? I tried to see the source (the one the argetinian site has) but it doesnt lead to anywhere
But whatever lol not that i care too
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EPT
