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On June 10 2015 05:39 Espers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2015 00:36 evilfatsh1t wrote:On June 09 2015 21:47 Faruko wrote:
The "teams nowadays are pretty stacked" argument its pretty terrible though
Mostly because how good is a team is only relative to their "era", even if X team is worse than say, Germany or Spain nowadays, X team was still stacked to the particular era that they were playing.
You cant really compare how stacked are teams nowadays to other times because those same teams, while not at the same level, had the same "stack-ness" to their relative era.
I even can agree that Germany is super strong nowadays, that doesnt change the fact that Germany was super strong in the 90', which one was better ? impossible to say yeah but we can say a particular era is better than the other. so if a team is good relative to the current era, and the current era is better than zidane's era, then said current team is better than zidane's era's team. i dont think anyone here can honestly disagree that players now are way better than players 10-20 years ago. also, germany now > germany in the 90s. the only way the 90s team would have a chance is if the ref made calls based on what it was like in the 90s. even then, the current german team would probably toy with the 90s one. techniques and tactics as well as body science has just developed too much technique i woudn't say so, i think it's timeless and comes down to natural ability + time spent with a football. sport science/tactics have improved, but the game is totally different now anyway. if you watch games from the 90s it's clear that the modern game is completely rigged towards attackers - overly physical challenges even if the ball is played = foul, insta red cards, modified offside rule, no more free fouls before a card comes out. plus with the diving, it's hard for defenders to risk doing anything. so it's kind of hard to compare eras when in one era people are trying to break Maradona's legs, and in the other the defenders are scared to put a foot close to Messi...
No offense but i completely disagree. the goal average at the 1986 WC was 2,54 per game, in 2014 it was 2,67 which is more but not significant (there were less teams in 86, so more quality).
What seperates modern tactic from the one 30 years ago is that at the highest level the whole team defends with a strategy of press, presstraps and guiding the offense of the opponent. Like Zidane was great but comparing him to today is nearly impossible because his position doesnt really exists anymore. Same goes with guys like Beckenbauer or Matthäus.
Look at Maradonas "goal of the century": + Show Spoiler +. In a modern match at this level this would have never happend because no one would have this much time in the middle of the field 3 times in a row. Like the sequence at ~1:35, at the are the argentinian player just backs up is around were Neuer would be. Almost.
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not sure how that relates to what i said - the rules of football have changed to accommodate the attacker more, this is absolutely a fact.
somewhat related.. funny example of Sacchi's Milan abusing the old offside rule: + Show Spoiler +
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On June 10 2015 06:01 Micro_Jackson wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2015 05:39 Espers wrote:On June 10 2015 00:36 evilfatsh1t wrote:On June 09 2015 21:47 Faruko wrote:
The "teams nowadays are pretty stacked" argument its pretty terrible though
Mostly because how good is a team is only relative to their "era", even if X team is worse than say, Germany or Spain nowadays, X team was still stacked to the particular era that they were playing.
You cant really compare how stacked are teams nowadays to other times because those same teams, while not at the same level, had the same "stack-ness" to their relative era.
I even can agree that Germany is super strong nowadays, that doesnt change the fact that Germany was super strong in the 90', which one was better ? impossible to say yeah but we can say a particular era is better than the other. so if a team is good relative to the current era, and the current era is better than zidane's era, then said current team is better than zidane's era's team. i dont think anyone here can honestly disagree that players now are way better than players 10-20 years ago. also, germany now > germany in the 90s. the only way the 90s team would have a chance is if the ref made calls based on what it was like in the 90s. even then, the current german team would probably toy with the 90s one. techniques and tactics as well as body science has just developed too much technique i woudn't say so, i think it's timeless and comes down to natural ability + time spent with a football. sport science/tactics have improved, but the game is totally different now anyway. if you watch games from the 90s it's clear that the modern game is completely rigged towards attackers - overly physical challenges even if the ball is played = foul, insta red cards, modified offside rule, no more free fouls before a card comes out. plus with the diving, it's hard for defenders to risk doing anything. so it's kind of hard to compare eras when in one era people are trying to break Maradona's legs, and in the other the defenders are scared to put a foot close to Messi... No offense but i completely disagree. the goal average at the 1986 WC was 2,54 per game, in 2014 it was 2,67 which is more but not significant (there were less teams in 86, so more quality). What seperates modern tactic from the one 30 years ago is that at the highest level the whole team defends with a strategy of press, presstraps and guiding the offense of the opponent. Like Zidane was great but comparing him to today is nearly impossible because his position doesnt really exists anymore. Same goes with guys like Beckenbauer or Matthäus. Look at Maradonas "goal of the century": + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azQabU537Rs . In a modern match at this level this would have never happend because no one would have this much time in the middle of the field 3 times in a row. Like the sequence at ~1:35, at the are the argentinian player just backs up is around were Neuer would be. Almost.
Yeah the game isnt 'rigged' towards attackers. It just makes it so that defenders now need to be more skilled and organized rather than kick the shit out of the teams best players.
I keep saying guys like Pele and Garrincha if you watch them beating players its like beer guttted slow thugs vs gazelles.
The game is better now. Its better in every way. Fitness, tactics, the talent (because the competition is absurd and pretty much worldwide).
So even without getting into numerical examples like drone is. It just follows that someone who is so dominant in era where there are so few things in terms of resources that differentiate the better from the best is actually quite absurd.
Thats why I keep saying the things Messi and Ronaldo are doing are stupid. Messi particularly because he makes quality players look like amateurs more often than anyone else. And this isnt a bunch of beer gutted slow ass thugs. These are high quality defenders, who are athletic and train week in week out in ways designed to stop him.
Here is a good example.
+ Show Spoiler +
its from 4 years ago. Jamie Redknapp makes the same "era" argument and the same stupid "World Cup" argument but there is a fundamental flaw in that which Gary Neville points out.
Now you can say "well if Pele or Maradonna had been born in this age they would be better. But the fact is. They werent.
So there is no point speculating on "what could have been" you can only go on what is.
And Messi is frankly the best the world has ever seen.
Ive made this same argument before to everyone who offers the logic Redknapp does because its pretty much an embodies the naysayers, even in this thread and never really had a convincing refute.
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On June 10 2015 06:32 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2015 06:01 Micro_Jackson wrote:On June 10 2015 05:39 Espers wrote:On June 10 2015 00:36 evilfatsh1t wrote:On June 09 2015 21:47 Faruko wrote:
The "teams nowadays are pretty stacked" argument its pretty terrible though
Mostly because how good is a team is only relative to their "era", even if X team is worse than say, Germany or Spain nowadays, X team was still stacked to the particular era that they were playing.
You cant really compare how stacked are teams nowadays to other times because those same teams, while not at the same level, had the same "stack-ness" to their relative era.
I even can agree that Germany is super strong nowadays, that doesnt change the fact that Germany was super strong in the 90', which one was better ? impossible to say yeah but we can say a particular era is better than the other. so if a team is good relative to the current era, and the current era is better than zidane's era, then said current team is better than zidane's era's team. i dont think anyone here can honestly disagree that players now are way better than players 10-20 years ago. also, germany now > germany in the 90s. the only way the 90s team would have a chance is if the ref made calls based on what it was like in the 90s. even then, the current german team would probably toy with the 90s one. techniques and tactics as well as body science has just developed too much technique i woudn't say so, i think it's timeless and comes down to natural ability + time spent with a football. sport science/tactics have improved, but the game is totally different now anyway. if you watch games from the 90s it's clear that the modern game is completely rigged towards attackers - overly physical challenges even if the ball is played = foul, insta red cards, modified offside rule, no more free fouls before a card comes out. plus with the diving, it's hard for defenders to risk doing anything. so it's kind of hard to compare eras when in one era people are trying to break Maradona's legs, and in the other the defenders are scared to put a foot close to Messi... No offense but i completely disagree. the goal average at the 1986 WC was 2,54 per game, in 2014 it was 2,67 which is more but not significant (there were less teams in 86, so more quality). What seperates modern tactic from the one 30 years ago is that at the highest level the whole team defends with a strategy of press, presstraps and guiding the offense of the opponent. Like Zidane was great but comparing him to today is nearly impossible because his position doesnt really exists anymore. Same goes with guys like Beckenbauer or Matthäus. Look at Maradonas "goal of the century": + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azQabU537Rs . In a modern match at this level this would have never happend because no one would have this much time in the middle of the field 3 times in a row. Like the sequence at ~1:35, at the are the argentinian player just backs up is around were Neuer would be. Almost. Yeah the game isnt 'rigged' towards attackers. It just makes it so that defenders now need to be more skilled and organized rather than kick the shit out of the teams best players. I keep saying guys like Pele and Garrincha if you watch them beating players its like beer guttted slow thugs vs gazelles. The game is better now. Its better in every way. Fitness, tactics, the talent (because the competition is absurd and pretty much worldwide). So even without getting into numerical examples like drone is. It just follows that someone who is so dominant in era where there are so few things in terms of resources that differentiate the better from the best is actually quite absurd. Thats why I keep saying the things Messi and Ronaldo are doing are stupid. Messi particularly because he makes quality players look like amateurs more often than anyone else. And this isnt a bunch of beer gutted slow ass thugs. These are high quality defenders, who are athletic and train week in week out in ways designed to stop him. Here is a good example. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQqk9Y14J-4 its from 4 years ago. Jamie Redknapp makes the same "era" argument and the same stupid "World Cup" argument but there is a fundamental flaw in that. Now you can say "well if Pele or Maradonna had been born in this age they would be better. But the fact is. They werent. So there is no point speculating on "what could have been" you can only go on what is. And Messi is frankly the best the world has ever seen. Ive made this same argument before to everyone who offers the logic Redknapp does because its pretty much an embodies the naysayers, even in this thread and never really had a convincing refute.
Give these modern guys a 60's era ball and see how they do. Let alone taking away yellow and red cards.
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On June 10 2015 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2015 06:32 Rebs wrote:On June 10 2015 06:01 Micro_Jackson wrote:On June 10 2015 05:39 Espers wrote:On June 10 2015 00:36 evilfatsh1t wrote:On June 09 2015 21:47 Faruko wrote:
The "teams nowadays are pretty stacked" argument its pretty terrible though
Mostly because how good is a team is only relative to their "era", even if X team is worse than say, Germany or Spain nowadays, X team was still stacked to the particular era that they were playing.
You cant really compare how stacked are teams nowadays to other times because those same teams, while not at the same level, had the same "stack-ness" to their relative era.
I even can agree that Germany is super strong nowadays, that doesnt change the fact that Germany was super strong in the 90', which one was better ? impossible to say yeah but we can say a particular era is better than the other. so if a team is good relative to the current era, and the current era is better than zidane's era, then said current team is better than zidane's era's team. i dont think anyone here can honestly disagree that players now are way better than players 10-20 years ago. also, germany now > germany in the 90s. the only way the 90s team would have a chance is if the ref made calls based on what it was like in the 90s. even then, the current german team would probably toy with the 90s one. techniques and tactics as well as body science has just developed too much technique i woudn't say so, i think it's timeless and comes down to natural ability + time spent with a football. sport science/tactics have improved, but the game is totally different now anyway. if you watch games from the 90s it's clear that the modern game is completely rigged towards attackers - overly physical challenges even if the ball is played = foul, insta red cards, modified offside rule, no more free fouls before a card comes out. plus with the diving, it's hard for defenders to risk doing anything. so it's kind of hard to compare eras when in one era people are trying to break Maradona's legs, and in the other the defenders are scared to put a foot close to Messi... No offense but i completely disagree. the goal average at the 1986 WC was 2,54 per game, in 2014 it was 2,67 which is more but not significant (there were less teams in 86, so more quality). What seperates modern tactic from the one 30 years ago is that at the highest level the whole team defends with a strategy of press, presstraps and guiding the offense of the opponent. Like Zidane was great but comparing him to today is nearly impossible because his position doesnt really exists anymore. Same goes with guys like Beckenbauer or Matthäus. Look at Maradonas "goal of the century": + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azQabU537Rs . In a modern match at this level this would have never happend because no one would have this much time in the middle of the field 3 times in a row. Like the sequence at ~1:35, at the are the argentinian player just backs up is around were Neuer would be. Almost. Yeah the game isnt 'rigged' towards attackers. It just makes it so that defenders now need to be more skilled and organized rather than kick the shit out of the teams best players. I keep saying guys like Pele and Garrincha if you watch them beating players its like beer guttted slow thugs vs gazelles. The game is better now. Its better in every way. Fitness, tactics, the talent (because the competition is absurd and pretty much worldwide). So even without getting into numerical examples like drone is. It just follows that someone who is so dominant in era where there are so few things in terms of resources that differentiate the better from the best is actually quite absurd. Thats why I keep saying the things Messi and Ronaldo are doing are stupid. Messi particularly because he makes quality players look like amateurs more often than anyone else. And this isnt a bunch of beer gutted slow ass thugs. These are high quality defenders, who are athletic and train week in week out in ways designed to stop him. Here is a good example. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQqk9Y14J-4 its from 4 years ago. Jamie Redknapp makes the same "era" argument and the same stupid "World Cup" argument but there is a fundamental flaw in that. Now you can say "well if Pele or Maradonna had been born in this age they would be better. But the fact is. They werent. So there is no point speculating on "what could have been" you can only go on what is. And Messi is frankly the best the world has ever seen. Ive made this same argument before to everyone who offers the logic Redknapp does because its pretty much an embodies the naysayers, even in this thread and never really had a convincing refute. Give these modern guys a 60's era ball and see how they do. Let alone taking away yellow and red cards.
But were not in the 60's are we. The game is better now than in the 60's. Your making the same argument Redknapp is and its flawed. How is going back to a poorer way of playing the game an infringement on who is playing right now ?
Why is it that taking away getting thumped and kicked in a sport means the player is less good. You can only play in the environment you are given.
Defenders back then relied on thuggery because they werent very good. Defenders have improved because attackers benefited from not getting the shit kicked out of them, better grass, technology what have you. Even back in those 60's you had teams getting whipped 6-0, 7-0 in world cups and these were closed tournaments stacked with Europeans and South Americans the super powers.
How often does that happen even to weaker teams in the world cup now ?
Hypothetical's are useless. And its always a hypothetical argument or a "has to win a worldcup argument" neither of which are very strong based on what we talk about.
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Please realise that you will never agree or persuade each other, for a good part because you don't want to, and remember that this game is beautiful and should unite people.
Pirlo and Xavi CL final
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I really disagree with your point about defenders. How many defenders these days are truly world class? Like, world beaters. Very few, compared to us looking back a decade or two.
The reason we don't have these huge beatings in general any longer is because the standard of football across the globe has risen greatly. Iran didn't keep Argentina at bay for almost an entire game because their defenders were god mode. They did so because the entire team was set up well.
And how much of a joke is it that Wilshere is being railed for performing the "What do we think of Tottenham" chant. The FA going full "someone think of the children" mode. Guess footballers can't show personality. Just be robots that kick a football and kiss babies.
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On June 10 2015 07:00 NuclearJudas wrote:
And how much of a joke is it that Wilshere is being railed for performing the "What do we think of Tottenham" chant. The FA going full "someone think of the children" mode. Guess footballers can't show personality. Just be robots that kick a football and kiss babies.
kespaaaa
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On June 10 2015 07:00 NuclearJudas wrote:
I really disagree with your point about defenders. How many defenders these days are truly world class? Like, world beaters. Very few, compared to us looking back a decade or two.
The reason we don't have these huge beatings in general any longer is because the standard of football across the globe has risen greatly. Iran didn't keep Argentina at bay for almost an entire game because their defenders were god mode. They did so because the entire team was set up well.
And how much of a joke is it that Wilshere is being railed for performing the "What do we think of Tottenham" chant. The FA going full "someone think of the children" mode. Guess footballers can't show personality. Just be robots that kick a football and kiss babies.
You dont have truly great defenders because its harder to stand out as a truly great defender. Bet lets forget that even though I disagree with it
+ Show Spoiler +Turtling is a totally different issue.
Even when teams play attacking football and its an open game defenders are just higher quality in general. The fact that we get all up and call David Luiz "bad" for getting nutmegged by a world class player is point enough. This sort of thing was commonplace. Platini, Maradonna, Cruyyff you name it even in the early 90's top quality attacks used to go past players like it was a joke. Thats where your Maldini's etc got to stand out with their ability.
And while were at it I dont believe there is such a thing "world beating defender" because defense by nature is meant to protect you from losing, not beating.
+ Show Spoiler +See what I did there, its the same thing you did with defenders and defending. I got your point but instead of looking at that I picked on the smaller issue of your phrasing and argued against it even though its meaningless in the general framework of things. Just wanted to make a point. dont really mean it.
Lets agree there are no or very few great defenders and that defending is a team thing.
The point still stands, and you kinda made it for me. You can replace "defenders are better" with "defenses are better."
And yeah that Wilshere thing is stupid. Players are people let them be people. This whole role model crap has to stop. Your kids wont become drug addicts because a footballer they looked upto ends up using cocaine. Jeez..
On June 10 2015 06:50 sneirac wrote:Please realise that you will never agree or persuade each other, for a good part because you don't want to, and remember that this game is beautiful and should unite people. Pirlo and Xavi CL final
Well then whats the point of even discussing anything right ? The fact that we come from around the world to talk about it is also a form of uniting, even if we disagree. Uniting people doesnt have to mean were in a sport themed episode of Barney.
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Show nested quote +On June 10 2015 06:50 sneirac wrote:Please realise that you will never agree or persuade each other, for a good part because you don't want to, and remember that this game is beautiful and should unite people. Pirlo and Xavi CL final Well then whats the point of even discussing anything right ? The fact that we come from around the world to talk about it is also a form of uniting, even if we disagree. Uniting people doesnt have to mean were in a sport themed episode of Barney.
Nah you should discuss and argue, there are lots of arguments I think are very interesting, because they concern leagues that I don't follow or because they just delve deeper into topics than I do. But there are certain topics that just constantly repeat themselves because people have just made up their mind. The Messi is goat thing has just become as annoying as sharkies bashing Guardiola at every opportunity.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On a different note, there was the Portugal League Jesus coach.
How good is he actually, and how much waves are being made in the Sporting - Benefica situation.
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On June 10 2015 08:10 sneirac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2015 06:50 sneirac wrote:Please realise that you will never agree or persuade each other, for a good part because you don't want to, and remember that this game is beautiful and should unite people. Pirlo and Xavi CL final Well then whats the point of even discussing anything right ? The fact that we come from around the world to talk about it is also a form of uniting, even if we disagree. Uniting people doesnt have to mean were in a sport themed episode of Barney. Nah you should discuss and argue, there are lots of arguments I think are very interesting, because they concern leagues that I don't follow or because they just delve deeper into topics than I do. But there are certain topics that just constantly repeat themselves because people have just made up their mind. The Messi is goat thing has just become as annoying as sharkies bashing Guardiola at every opportunity.
Yeah but as someone pointed out, I think its kinda unavoidable when there is a lul in action. Your right, everyones laid out there cards and they dont change but its something people feel so strongly about.
its rather annoying when every comment someone makes is a one liner filled agenda driven snark though so your right about that aswell.
On June 10 2015 08:25 TanGeng wrote:
On a different note, there was the Portugal League Jesus coach.
How good is he actually, and how much waves are being made in the Sporting - Benefica situation.
You can follow that here...
http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/sports/460943-2014-2015-football-thread?page=757#15124
Dont think there's many new developments beyond whats been discussed but there must be some more people with their 2 cents about it. Its kinda mixed in with the FIFA debacle. So the world didnt pay as much attention as it could have.
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Newcastle sacked John Carver, I can't wrap my head around the decision. I can't believe that they'd be dumb enough to sack the best coach in the Premier League.
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On June 10 2015 12:35 Ferrose wrote:
Newcastle sacked John Carver, I can't wrap my head around the decision. I can't believe that they'd be dumb enough to sack the best coach in the Premier League.
I really did believe he was the best coach in the league. Such a shame.
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On June 10 2015 08:25 TanGeng wrote:
On a different note, there was the Portugal League Jesus coach.
How good is he actually, and how much waves are being made in the Sporting - Benefica situation.
One interesting thing about Jesus is that he speaks the most 'lower class' brand of Portuguese possible - sort of like a cockney accent spoken by someone with poor language skills. Even though his father was a footballer, he seems to have come from poverty. He then had a relatively mediocre career as a footballer.
Then, according to him, he went to the Netherlands on internships at Dutch clubs to learn everything about total football. He set his life goal on becoming a true master of tactics and player development. He then started managing lower division clubs and working his way up in the Portuguese league for many years before reaching Benfica. He's also an original: all his training routines are unique and created by him - not even Benfica B's manager was allowed to witness the training sessions of the A team. His journey seems really unlikely and sort of moviesque.
His gaffes in the Portuguese language are also legendary and have reached an audience outside football. Last season Porto's manager Julen Lopetegui threatened to punch him for having pronounced his name as Lotopegui.
The reason I wrote this is because his story and his persona can get lost when international media write about this. This guy is a true character, there are very few as interesting managers as him in football. His move to Sporting is a betrayal and unethical, but I'd say that most Benfica fans still respect him too much to hate him at the level a Barcelona fan hates Figo. It won't stop us from calling him Judas for fun, but deep down we understand his and his father's dream would be to manage Sporting and due to his father medical condition he wouldn't accept going abroad.
In the end sports is as much about stories as it is about winning and Jesus/Judas' story is one of the most fascinating around.
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^ Figo's betrayal was pure greed and out of the blue. He was really loved here too.
The North remembers.
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Figo is just a rat. He was one of the three captains of the team and he was the player that Barcelona fans loved more in that moment. He said that he loved the team and would stay foverever the week before he suddenly go to Real Madrid when Florentino is elected president betraying everyone.
I hope he doesn't become FIFA president, he would be a dirty one for sure.
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FIFA has postponed the bidding process for the 2026 World Cup following corruption allegations engulfing football's governing body.
Sky news
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Oh interesting, makes sense i guess. New president > then world cup bids. Plus tbh who would want to bid for 2026 world cup right now
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You can't really hold bids when the FIFA organization can't focus on them and the organization itself is in turmoil.
On the more cynical side, who will be sitting on the FIFA world cup committee isn't clear and thus bidders won't know who to bribe yet.
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EPT
