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On October 26 2014 14:00 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2014 11:51 parkufarku wrote:On October 26 2014 10:21 TwoToneTerran wrote:On October 26 2014 04:52 parkufarku wrote:On October 26 2014 04:40 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Lin is nowhere near Dragic/Lowry level... We haven't seen Lin be given a chance to perform. Lin was unable to play point guard in Houston for 2 years, and told to wait in corner as a spot-up shooter (not his natural position or strength). He had to play with ball-stopping Melo / Harden, and his NYK year, he might have gotten more chance to perform but that was also his very first NBA year (technically). Lin is as good as Dragic / Lowry. Dragic averaged 11 points a game in Houston's "PG killer" system. Please reserve your judgment after Lin is actually given one real chance to prove that he's a good player. Upping Lin's usage isn't going to magically make up for his many, and drastic, shortcomings. Not to mention he's literally moved into an offense that is now taking away one of his few strengths (his three point shooting). I mean, there's no good pick and roll bigs on the Lakers, either. I wonder what part of Lin's game you are asking us to reserve judgement on. Drastic shortcomings like what? Shooting? Good/Decent Getting to the rim? Elite Passing? Good/Decent Defense? (False myth, actually league average, sometime nights above average) Turnovers? Was bad in NYK but that was his first real NBA year and his TO has gone down every year Vision / BBIQ? Good/Decent Going to the left? He can drive to the left very fast now, and does it quite frequently Tell me, what are his "many drastic shortcomings"? Do you actually see him play rather than listen to the garbage the media likes to spit out about Lin? Even if literally everything you just said was true (and it is not), that does not make him as good as Dragic and Lowry(or at the very least the seasons they showed last year, who knows if they maintain that level of play). Let's go through your list, anyhow. His drastic shortcomings include his defense (If you are defending his defense then you are insane, it is terrible). He's bad on like every defensive metric I can find. Really bad. And even beyond that, he looks really bad when you watch him play defense. He is not elite at getting to the rim. Unless you consider Elite anyone in the top 30 players at getting to the rim(and that's being generous, he's probably lower than that). Then you have the problem of once he gets to the rim he can't actually finish with both hands and that he's not the greatest at passing out of a bad look (this is where he gets a lot of his turnovers, than and his sometimes lackadaisical dribbling). Define basketball IQ. I love when that word gets thrown around. Tell me what it means. By the by, it is not synonymous with court vision and shouldn't get the same rating. Jeremy Lin's strengths are he can score really well on one side of the floor (both shooting and finishing), he's great at the pick and roll, and he's a good passer in set plays (like pick and rolls or pick and pops!). His horrible weaknesses are his defense, his scoring on the other half of the floor, and his terrible passing when a play breaks down. Also he has problems with security while dribbling. This is the problem with him on the lakers, right now. They take away his good three point shooting, which puts a bigger focus on the weaker part of his offensive game (it necessarily means a higher percentage of his shots will come in the areas he's worse at converting at an effective rate). The Lakers don't have a single good pick and roll player to pair with him, again taking away one of his best offensive skills. His defense is atrocious. I don't think Jeremy Lin is even a bad player. In the right situation he can be a very good player. But the Lakers are not the right situation given everything they've shown so far.
LOL his defense is terrible? Are you high? His defense is league average, and on some nights above average. He defended Lillard in the playoffs very well, but Lillard got a lot of his shots off of Bev / Parsons guarding him. He had good defense during pre-season, and in the Rockets games, he was mostly trying to make-up for Harden's non-existent defense. Did you even watch a single game of his before you spouted out the most ignorant thing I've heard? Yes, there is a bad defense myth that is COMPLETELY made-up by SAS that is regurgitated by dumb writers who don't watch Lin games, but contrary to the info, Lin is actually a very underrated defender.
From a data-point of view, Lin's defensive rating was very close to Beverly's (source: http://raining3s.com/2014/07/30/jeremy-lins-defense-far-better/ )and is a very underrated defender.
From an eye-point of view, Lin hustles, plays great team defense, but on individual defense, sometimes really speedy point guards like Westbrook or Wall blow by him (but no one can really guard them anyway, not just Lin). His lateral defensive speed is average, I'll give you that. But by NO means is Lin a bad defender.
I'm not even going to address your other points because you said Lin is not elite at getting to the rim. You just have NO idea what the hell you are talking about. That's what Lin is known for. He has a 49.5% field goal percentage on drives, SECOND IN THE LEAGUE (first = Lebron, source = http://www.nba.com/lakers/news/140911lins_value_hoop). Lin has an "amazingly quick first step"
"He can't drive to the left" was only a problem in his first rookie year at NYK, he practiced it over the off-season and he polished it while he was in Rockets. You see Lin quite frequently drive to the left very easily in all his recent games. But you wouldn't know this because you have no clue about him and you obviously don't watch his games.
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Lin is great at getting to the rim, but how is it only a 49.5% FG%? That would be low. It has to be higher than that.
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On October 27 2014 12:43 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2014 14:00 TwoToneTerran wrote:On October 26 2014 11:51 parkufarku wrote:On October 26 2014 10:21 TwoToneTerran wrote:On October 26 2014 04:52 parkufarku wrote:On October 26 2014 04:40 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Lin is nowhere near Dragic/Lowry level... We haven't seen Lin be given a chance to perform. Lin was unable to play point guard in Houston for 2 years, and told to wait in corner as a spot-up shooter (not his natural position or strength). He had to play with ball-stopping Melo / Harden, and his NYK year, he might have gotten more chance to perform but that was also his very first NBA year (technically). Lin is as good as Dragic / Lowry. Dragic averaged 11 points a game in Houston's "PG killer" system. Please reserve your judgment after Lin is actually given one real chance to prove that he's a good player. Upping Lin's usage isn't going to magically make up for his many, and drastic, shortcomings. Not to mention he's literally moved into an offense that is now taking away one of his few strengths (his three point shooting). I mean, there's no good pick and roll bigs on the Lakers, either. I wonder what part of Lin's game you are asking us to reserve judgement on. Drastic shortcomings like what? Shooting? Good/Decent Getting to the rim? Elite Passing? Good/Decent Defense? (False myth, actually league average, sometime nights above average) Turnovers? Was bad in NYK but that was his first real NBA year and his TO has gone down every year Vision / BBIQ? Good/Decent Going to the left? He can drive to the left very fast now, and does it quite frequently Tell me, what are his "many drastic shortcomings"? Do you actually see him play rather than listen to the garbage the media likes to spit out about Lin? Even if literally everything you just said was true (and it is not), that does not make him as good as Dragic and Lowry(or at the very least the seasons they showed last year, who knows if they maintain that level of play). Let's go through your list, anyhow. His drastic shortcomings include his defense (If you are defending his defense then you are insane, it is terrible). He's bad on like every defensive metric I can find. Really bad. And even beyond that, he looks really bad when you watch him play defense. He is not elite at getting to the rim. Unless you consider Elite anyone in the top 30 players at getting to the rim(and that's being generous, he's probably lower than that). Then you have the problem of once he gets to the rim he can't actually finish with both hands and that he's not the greatest at passing out of a bad look (this is where he gets a lot of his turnovers, than and his sometimes lackadaisical dribbling). Define basketball IQ. I love when that word gets thrown around. Tell me what it means. By the by, it is not synonymous with court vision and shouldn't get the same rating. Jeremy Lin's strengths are he can score really well on one side of the floor (both shooting and finishing), he's great at the pick and roll, and he's a good passer in set plays (like pick and rolls or pick and pops!). His horrible weaknesses are his defense, his scoring on the other half of the floor, and his terrible passing when a play breaks down. Also he has problems with security while dribbling. This is the problem with him on the lakers, right now. They take away his good three point shooting, which puts a bigger focus on the weaker part of his offensive game (it necessarily means a higher percentage of his shots will come in the areas he's worse at converting at an effective rate). The Lakers don't have a single good pick and roll player to pair with him, again taking away one of his best offensive skills. His defense is atrocious. I don't think Jeremy Lin is even a bad player. In the right situation he can be a very good player. But the Lakers are not the right situation given everything they've shown so far. LOL his defense is terrible? Are you high? His defense is league average, and on some nights above average. He defended Lillard in the playoffs very well, but Lillard got a lot of his shots off of Bev / Parsons guarding him. He had good defense during pre-season, and in the Rockets games, he was mostly trying to make-up for Harden's non-existent defense. Did you even watch a single game of his before you spouted out the most ignorant thing I've heard? Yes, there is a bad defense myth that is COMPLETELY made-up by SAS that is regurgitated by dumb writers who don't watch Lin games, but contrary to the info, Lin is actually a very underrated defender. From a data-point of view, Lin's defensive rating was very close to Beverly's (source: http://raining3s.com/2014/07/30/jeremy-lins-defense-far-better/ )and is a very underrated defender. From an eye-point of view, Lin hustles, plays great team defense, but on individual defense, sometimes really speedy point guards like Westbrook or Wall blow by him (but no one can really guard them anyway, not just Lin). His lateral defensive speed is average, I'll give you that. But by NO means is Lin a bad defender. I'm not even going to address your other points because you said Lin is not elite at getting to the rim. You just have NO idea what the hell you are talking about. That's what Lin is known for. He has a 49.5% field goal percentage on drives, SECOND IN THE LEAGUE (first = Lebron, source = http://www.nba.com/lakers/news/140911lins_value_hoop). Lin has an "amazingly quick first step" "He can't drive to the left" was only a problem in his first rookie year at NYK, he practiced it over the off-season and he polished it while he was in Rockets. You see Lin quite frequently drive to the left very easily in all his recent games. But you wouldn't know this because you have no clue about him and you obviously don't watch his games.
If my post was the most ignorant thing you've ever heard then you're either deaf or you don't know what the word means.
Your "source" citing how good Lin's defense is is laughable because the only argument it makes is a case against Beverly starting over him, which at most is just an indictment of Beverly's own performance in Houston's porous defense. You see, even that site that you just used makes not of things like Lin's DRTG, which is 109. Did you know Kyrie Irving, the player much maligned for his atrocious defense, is 109.5? And Kyrie obviously carries a way bigger scoring role than Lin did these past two years(by the by, Waiters was just as non existent on defense as Harden). Yet Lin is only very, very marginally better than an absolutely abysmal defender who gets railed on in the media. 109 is a bottom fifth drtg, league wise, even for PGs (who tend to have bad defensive metrics in the first place relative to other positions). Most other defensive metrics back this.
Also, yes, the wonderful eye test. Please tell me how Lin is a good help defender. His slow lateral movement, which you yourself acknowledgement, and his getting lost against opposing offensive sets (like how he's not so good at defending PnRs and such) kind of makes him a bad team defender. Hustle isn't a freaking magic word that makes someone good at defense. Kevin Love hustles a lot but he's a bad defender. Display effort doesn't make up for shortcomings if you're just bad at positioning your feet, pressuring the ball, keeping up with your man, or contesting a shooter who so much as looks like he's gonna drive because you back off quickly to make up for, as you put it, poor lateral speed. There are lots of problems in Lin's defensive game and your biased eye test doesn't mean anything.
And, frankly, when your argument devolves into "Just LOOK at these 10 or so games, which includes preseason games, to see how Lin's defense is above league average!" It isn't, and ignoring the larger sample of over a hundred games to suit yourself is intellectually dishonest. Stop pretending Lin is a good defender just because you want him to be because you're a fan.
His shooting is something you can just, you know, check with raw data. It's easily accessible!
http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=202391
You can literally even watch nearly every shot he took last season. You can check the situations he was in when he made or missed a shot. The dude is ABYSMAL dead on, REALLY good on the left side, and a bit below average on the right side. He's an average 3point shooter on the right and a GREAT three point shooter on the left, just never ask him to take a shot at the top of the arc or it's bad news. The thing is, just click on the shots at the basket and watch those. It's only a little over an hour of your time (depending on your internet) as long as you click forward early on every shot so you don't have to watch the entirety of each video. It's not that he can't drive to his left -- he's clearly worse at it, but most drivers have a side they favor. It's that you don't want him taking shots over lots of the floor. He's actually an elite scorer on his favored side, but that's never what I was arguing.
Treating a Lakers article that is trying to hype Lin up as more than he is doesn't make it more true. Do you seriously, honestly, want me to name every player who's better at driving than Lin? Quoting superlatives like "Quick first step" is such a tedious, sports pundit maneuver. You'd think someone who just blasted me and related my arguments to those of SAS would try to avoid loaded language like that. By the by, your freaking Lakers article doesn't even corroborate what you're saying. It literally lists 4 people ahead of Lin's percentage, so your "SECOND IN THE LEAGUE" crap isn't even supported in your own biased article. It also completely ignores the other half of driving the rim -- passing out of bad looks, which I've noted as one of Lin's weaknesses (You know, when a play breaks down). For instance, Lin is not better at making a good play out of a drive as Chris Paul. Chris Paul is a significantly better passer and has a lot more moves like floaters and push shots that come off drives that don't necessarily come in that space directly under the basket. These are factors and things that your biased ass article that's grasping at good looking Lin stats do not take into account when it pretends to list Lin in the same air as top flight drivers. This list gets bigger and bigger when I start adding other names like Wade (whose efficiency was insane last year) or Wall or lots of other guards who are, wow, good at driving the basket, go figure (and it gets worse if we start getting into injured guys like Rose or Bledsoe who I'd obviously take over Lin as drivers). He's good! He's not elite. Elite is not that easy a term to garner.
Basically, you're talking out of your ass a lot. Lin's a perfectly fine player with a good set of skills that could make him an above average starter on the right team and an otherwise alright piece on any team. But he's not elite and he's not on the same level as other all star point guards for a variety of reasons. Constantly repeating "I BET YOU NEVER WATCHED LIN" when I clearly have is also ridiculous. His freaking team was in the same division as my team. Whenever my Pelicans weren't on the air Houston games were playing, you snide mofo.
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maybe he doesn't realize how good dragic and lowry are, cuz they're both like.. pretty good, and very obviously better than Lin at pretty much everything.
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geez Lin jumped like 20+ spots on fantasy after Nash is gone.
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Lin is going to drop 40 on the Rockets.
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Point guards clearly better than Jeremy Lin:
- Tony Parker
- John Wall
- Kyrie Irving
- Chris Paul
- Ty Lawson
- Damian Lillard
- Rajon Rondo
- Goran Dragic
- Eric Bledsoe
- Kemba Walker
- Rose
- Stephen Curry
- Isiah Thomas
- Russell Westbrook
Essentially what we can conclude and probably all agree on: Jeremy Lin is a solid starting PG caliber player in the NBA. You can probably win an NBA title if he's your starting PG, provided you have other pieces, obviously. He is not at an all-star level, and he's not an elite player.
He does some things very well (penetrating), and is average at most things (defense, shooting). I don't even get what we're arguing about.
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Yea, when he dropped that line about lowry and dragic, I stopped reading.
I am excited for the season to start!
Lin v Rockets, new look Mavs vs Spurs!
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On October 28 2014 02:58 Xeris wrote:
Point guards clearly better than Jeremy Lin:
- Tony Parker
- John Wall
- Kyrie Irving
- Chris Paul
- Ty Lawson
- Damian Lillard
- Rajon Rondo
- Goran Dragic
- Eric Bledsoe
- Kemba Walker
- Rose
- Stephen Curry
- Isiah Thomas
- Russell Westbrook
Essentially what we can conclude and probably all agree on: Jeremy Lin is a solid starting PG caliber player in the NBA. You can probably win an NBA title if he's your starting PG, provided you have other pieces, obviously. He is not at an all-star level, and he's not an elite player.
He does some things very well (penetrating), and is average at most things (defense, shooting). I don't even get what we're arguing about.
nohomer noninjured Derrick Rose
Kyle Lowry
Deron Williams
Shaun Livingston maybe
Jrue Holiday assuming he's back 100% but if you have Rondo on there I don't see why not
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On October 28 2014 02:58 Xeris wrote:
Point guards clearly better than Jeremy Lin:
- Tony Parker
- John Wall
- Kyrie Irving
- Chris Paul
- Ty Lawson
- Damian Lillard
- Rajon Rondo
- Goran Dragic
- Eric Bledsoe
- Kemba Walker
- Rose
- Stephen Curry
- Isiah Thomas
- Russell Westbrook
Essentially what we can conclude and probably all agree on: Jeremy Lin is a solid starting PG caliber player in the NBA. You can probably win an NBA title if he's your starting PG, provided you have other pieces, obviously. He is not at an all-star level, and he's not an elite player.
He does some things very well (penetrating), and is average at most things (defense, shooting). I don't even get what we're arguing about.
But can you win a title if he's your main ball handler? Probably not.
He has a superstar skill set without superstar proficiency at any of those skills. These are the toughest players to integrate into an offense, especially when shooting is not a top notch grade. This is why he often gets the "good 6th man" label.
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Chris Paul can't get out of the second round as the primary ball handler, never mind Jeremy Lin.
Edit: On the topic of Chris Paul, in 2k he throws the stupidest, most ill-advised lobs like 8 times a game, and I've never seen one completed yet.
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On October 28 2014 08:28 seiferoth10 wrote:
Chris Paul can't get out of the second round as the primary ball handler, never mind Jeremy Lin.
Edit: On the topic of Chris Paul, in 2k he throws the stupidest, most ill-advised lobs like 8 times a game, and I've never seen one completed yet.
2k is such a shit game, i can not believe i bought it again this year thinking hey maybe they'll fix the issue where basically the players on your team are retarded at doing anything on the court and pass it off as "harder" difficulty.
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On October 28 2014 12:37 krndandaman wrote:
we got 4 so far for espn auction roto, need 4 more. join quick so we can do a draft asap before too many games are played.
make sure you can commit for the full season too!
I'm in. My flatmate can join too if we need numbers.
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Good read. Def got me excited to watch more GS games.
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I find it ridiculous that with that roster the Warriors only ranked 12th in Offensive rating.
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I disagree with the article just because I dont trust the lineups to stay healthy which is basic to the lineup doing what he predicts.
Plus, I just don't trust a team built like that in the playoffs given the current NBA. The Steph/Clay combo seems a bit too easy for locked in athletic/smart teams to shut down (to me). I would have much preferred to see them vs. OKC instead of the Clippers, but they lost to the Clippers, and well, there it is.
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EPT
