EPTSo if you are targeting a fast 400m just as a fun goal, i assume you'd have to run shorter distances harder with full recovery. And assuming if you do devote that time and energy to running a faster 400, would that benefit your 10k or longer distance races? What are your takes on those.
Running Thread 2014 - Page 6
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YPang
United States4024 Posts
So if you are targeting a fast 400m just as a fun goal, i assume you'd have to run shorter distances harder with full recovery. And assuming if you do devote that time and energy to running a faster 400, would that benefit your 10k or longer distance races? What are your takes on those. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
How much will it benefit longer distance? Probably minimally...if at all. Moreso if you want to focus on 800/1500, less of an effect for 5000/10000, and a minimal effect it any for marathon. It's rare for speed to be the limiting factor for distance runners, at least until you have really strong endurance. If you have say low 60s 400 speed, it isn't really an issue at all until you are running something like 2:10, 4:45. 16:30, 34:00. Nonetheless, it does matter depending on what your goals are. If you want to run much faster than 2:05/4:30/15:30 60s speed for 400 isn't going to cut it. As for how you improve speed, I don't think coming at it from the angle of 200-300 repeats is especially great. You could prove your 400 that way, but it would be more like speed endurance with minimal carryover to distance. Approaching it from basic speed to the best way to do so. Things like developing good sprint mechanics, drills, plyometrics, explosive, heavy lifitng, short flying sprints (30-60m), short hill sprints, and maybe some 150s/200s working on being explosive but smooth. It's really something I think any distance runner should incorporate at least some time to during his training cycles, as more speed always opens the door to being able to run faster times, and makes running at a given pace a little more economical as the pace is no longer as demanding mechanically. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
Someone...quite possibly myself, is going to end up killing themselves on those things. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
This leads me to believe that I should be running faster than 4mph regularly, and since I didn't notice much difference between 4 and 4.5, Imight want to go a bit faster yet. I'm asking for some advice about how fast I should be running. What would be normalish for a 6'0 male who is relitivly new? How do I gauge if it's too fast or too slow? I've been running the same speed since I've started, so I have no experience with other paces save for the 30-60 second sprints at the end of my runs. Oh, and I guess I have a question regarding when to run as well. I typically get to the gym, walk for 5 mins, do my lifting circuit (3 sets of 10 reps on 3 compound lifts) then do four 5 min rounds of heavy bag/calisthenics, before moving onto my run. Is this the correct order to do my workout in, or should I be moving my run to a different place? Thanks | ||
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YPang
United States4024 Posts
On March 23 2014 08:48 Arisen wrote: I started running last year and stopped during the winter months. I'm back at it after a 3 or so month break. I really lost a lot of endurance. I'm slowly increasing my runs (doing intervals of walk/ run as per c25k) currently at 7 min run/ 3 walk for 30 mins with a 5 min warmup/cd. I repeated my run on Thursday from Wednesday (moved from 5w/5r to 3/7 on Monday), and for some reason I decided to run .5 mph faster than normal, running at 4.5 mph rather than my usual 4 that I have stuck to since I started. I had no problems. I felt fatigued at the en of my run intervals, but no more so than I did at 4 mph; I'm just out of shape. This leads me to believe that I should be running faster than 4mph regularly, and since I didn't notice much difference between 4 and 4.5, Imight want to go a bit faster yet. I'm asking for some advice about how fast I should be running. What would be normalish for a 6'0 male who is relitivly new? How do I gauge if it's too fast or too slow? I've been running the same speed since I've started, so I have no experience with other paces save for the 30-60 second sprints at the end of my runs. Oh, and I guess I have a question regarding when to run as well. I typically get to the gym, walk for 5 mins, do my lifting circuit (3 sets of 10 reps on 3 compound lifts) then do four 5 min rounds of heavy bag/calisthenics, before moving onto my run. Is this the correct order to do my workout in, or should I be moving my run to a different place? Thanks Personally, i think that's all fine. As a beginner, consistency and having fun and just being able to do it everyday is the main thing to focus on. If you're currently liking your routine then it is perfect, if you start to feel dull, the possibly try take the running outside? | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On March 23 2014 08:48 Arisen wrote: I started running last year and stopped during the winter months. I'm back at it after a 3 or so month break. I really lost a lot of endurance. I'm slowly increasing my runs (doing intervals of walk/ run as per c25k) currently at 7 min run/ 3 walk for 30 mins with a 5 min warmup/cd. I repeated my run on Thursday from Wednesday (moved from 5w/5r to 3/7 on Monday), and for some reason I decided to run .5 mph faster than normal, running at 4.5 mph rather than my usual 4 that I have stuck to since I started. I had no problems. I felt fatigued at the en of my run intervals, but no more so than I did at 4 mph; I'm just out of shape. This leads me to believe that I should be running faster than 4mph regularly, and since I didn't notice much difference between 4 and 4.5, Imight want to go a bit faster yet. I'm asking for some advice about how fast I should be running. What would be normalish for a 6'0 male who is relitivly new? How do I gauge if it's too fast or too slow? I've been running the same speed since I've started, so I have no experience with other paces save for the 30-60 second sprints at the end of my runs. Oh, and I guess I have a question regarding when to run as well. I typically get to the gym, walk for 5 mins, do my lifting circuit (3 sets of 10 reps on 3 compound lifts) then do four 5 min rounds of heavy bag/calisthenics, before moving onto my run. Is this the correct order to do my workout in, or should I be moving my run to a different place? Thanks Easy pace is the way to go. That's how you determine what pace you should be running. You know the feeling of easy the same way you know the feeling of hunger, or pain, or thirst. You should feel like it would not be difficult to run at that pace for several hours, and I'd say it's generally just a smidge faster than "So easy it feels like I'm not getting a workout". In short ask yourself "Is this pace easy". If the answer is no, I'm not sure, it feel okay but sorta fast, moderate, or anything else then the answer to the question is "no", so slow down a bit. Once you are running consistently 3-4 times a week feeling great, then you can start to play around with the speed. If you are feeling good on a normal run what you can do is gradually just start picking up the pace with about 15 minutes to go and run a "comfortably hard effort" for the remainder. If you still feel like gangbusters with a minute or two to go that pace can ratchet slowly down to a near sprint for the last 10-15s, as long as you DO NOT TIE UP. Another decent workout once you are running consistently is the fartlek, wherin you just can pick random targets, near or far, and surge towards them. One surge might be a 15s near sprint to a fire hydrant, another could be a steady, strong pace for 4 minutes to that store a kilometer away. Just jog easy between the surges and start a new one whenever you are feeling good. As far as what is a normal pace for a new 6'0" runner I'd say two things. The first is that height has NOTHING to do with running speed. A 5'0" runner is not any more or less likely to be faster than a 6'2" guy. As far as a normal easy pace for a new runner, I would say anywhere from 7:30 pace to 15:00 pace depending largely on innate talent, activity background, and most importantly weight. | ||
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
On March 23 2014 09:57 L_Master wrote: Easy pace is the way to go. That's how you determine what pace you should be running. You know the feeling of easy the same way you know the feeling of hunger, or pain, or thirst. You should feel like it would not be difficult to run at that pace for several hours, and I'd say it's generally just a smidge faster than "So easy it feels like I'm not getting a workout". Alright, now I'm definitely confused. I...don't think it's possible for me to run at such a pace that I would feel okay running it for hours. There's just no way. Even jogging slower than a walk. Even jogging on the spot. Does that mean I shouldn't be running at all, and should just be going at a brisk walk? And if so, how long would it take me to transition to running? | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On March 23 2014 18:46 Salivanth wrote: Alright, now I'm definitely confused. I...don't think it's possible for me to run at such a pace that I would feel okay running it for hours. There's just no way. Even jogging slower than a walk. Even jogging on the spot. Does that mean I shouldn't be running at all, and should just be going at a brisk walk? And if so, how long would it take me to transition to running? Aerobically. Not muscularly. Your legs would certainly get tired from a multi hour effort since you are new to running. Unless you are really overweight I find it hard to imagine that jogging slowly in place gets you severally winded. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On March 23 2014 23:32 L_Master wrote: Aerobically. Not muscularly. Your legs would certainly get tired from a multi hour effort since you are new to running. Unless you are really overweight I find it hard to imagine that jogging slowly in place gets you severally winded. I have problems breathing even at the slowest of jogs as well; however I severely doubt it's from my weight (I'm barely overweight at this point). It's hard to explain, but the motion of jogging makes it difficult to breath evenly. I can be walking at 3MPH then switch motions to very slowly jogging and my breathing immediately changes a lot. When I change from running to walking, I don't have that feeling from when you're winded because you were doing hill sprints or something where you can't breathe, you know? My breathing is odd and sometimes I will get a sort of stitch around my appendix area. I really wish I could explain better, but I can't. Maybe I'm doing something very wrong which is making things harder. | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9016 Posts
Even a slow jog you will have to breathe heavier, but you should run at a pace where it would be easy for you to have a conversation while running. That should be your normal training pace, even if it's just a really fast walk at first I would say over time you will be able to slowly build the pace up with regular training. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On March 24 2014 18:23 Arisen wrote: I have problems breathing even at the slowest of jogs as well; however I severely doubt it's from my weight (I'm barely overweight at this point). It's hard to explain, but the motion of jogging makes it difficult to breath evenly. I can be walking at 3MPH then switch motions to very slowly jogging and my breathing immediately changes a lot. When I change from running to walking, I don't have that feeling from when you're winded because you were doing hill sprints or something where you can't breathe, you know? My breathing is odd and sometimes I will get a sort of stitch around my appendix area. I really wish I could explain better, but I can't. Maybe I'm doing something very wrong which is making things harder. Breathing heavier is normal. I wouldn't expect someone to breath as relaxed and regularly at an easy pace as they would sitting or even walking, as while it is an easy pace it is still much more intense than general movement. I wouldn't even ask yourself about how you are breathing, but ask "does this feel easy". You can certainly be breathing somewhat rapidly and still have the run be easy. A rough guideline for an easy pace is one breath for each 3 steps, but like anything else this can vary significantly. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
3) Discovered Strava. I know I'm probably late to the game on this one, but I'm having lots of fun documenting my runs and snagging CR's on different segments. Just discovered this. Been having some fun grabbing a few. Currently sitting at #3 in incline descents, and have the fastest time down Ruxton avenue (just sigh of a mile). If I get in better shape I think I'll take a crack at the downhill sub 4, as I'm currently around 4:20 pace with a little more in the tank. | ||
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
On March 23 2014 23:32 L_Master wrote: Aerobically. Not muscularly. Your legs would certainly get tired from a multi hour effort since you are new to running. Unless you are really overweight I find it hard to imagine that jogging slowly in place gets you severally winded. Thanks, I started that. I'm still walking/jogging due to my legs, but I'm jogging much longer stretches now, and have controlled, slightly heavier breathing during the jogging portions. Now I just need my legs to adjust to running and I'll be all set. | ||
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Don_Julio
2220 Posts
I improved my PR from september by more than a minute and ran 5 minutes faster than the same race last year (weather was terrible last year though). And I didn't even prepare for a 10k. I had one single fast work-out this year. I can't wait to crush the 44 and go beyond. But first priority on my list is amassing more mileage for the 31k which is in exactly 4 weeks. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
I'll be racing 2M this Saturday, a 5k at my campus the following Saturday, another 5k late April, and then I guess goal race for this little mini cycle will be Bolder Boulder in May. It's a somewhat hilly, net uphill course; not knowing how I will progress I'd be satisfied with mid 39s, but ideally I'd like to get into 37:xx territory. On March 30 2014 19:57 Don_Julio wrote: NEW PR, 44:48!!! First time sub 45! I improved my PR from september by more than a minute and ran 5 minutes faster than the same race last year (weather was terrible last year though). And I didn't even prepare for a 10k. I had one single fast work-out this year. I can't wait to crush the 44 and go beyond. But first priority on my list is amassing more mileage for the 31k which is in exactly 4 weeks. Nice work dude, told ya sub 45 was in the bag! Looking forward to seeing how the 30k race goes for ya. What time were you shooting for again? | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
I've tried a few different things. I started with 3 steps in, 3 steps out. I've tried 2in, 2 out, 4 in 4 out, 3 in 2 out, and nothing is feeling right.Are there any tricks to find a comfortable breathing pattern any of you could share? | ||
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Don_Julio
2220 Posts
On March 31 2014 10:13 L_Master wrote: My running has been going reasonable. Continuing to try and eat well, and gradually brining the mileage back. Getting up around 20mpw atm and will be progressing to 30 over the course of this month, at which point I'll probably start one light workout a week. I'll be racing 2M this Saturday, a 5k at my campus the following Saturday, another 5k late April, and then I guess goal race for this little mini cycle will be Bolder Boulder in May. It's a somewhat hilly, net uphill course; not knowing how I will progress I'd be satisfied with mid 39s, but ideally I'd like to get into 37:xx territory. Good to see you getting back. Do you feel any sensations in your hip? Because I occasionally feel "something" when I give in to the temptation to run a little harder than easy. On March 30 2014 19:57 Don_Julio wrote: NEW PR, 44:48!!! First time sub 45! I improved my PR from september by more than a minute and ran 5 minutes faster than the same race last year (weather was terrible last year though). And I didn't even prepare for a 10k. I had one single fast work-out this year. I can't wait to crush the 44 and go beyond. But first priority on my list is amassing more mileage for the 31k which is in exactly 4 weeks. Nice work dude, told ya sub 45 was in the bag! Looking forward to seeing how the 30k race goes for ya. What time were you shooting for again?[/QUOTE] Thanks. You told me that I should target ~42minutes in my work-outs and this race gave me the confidence to do that. I want to run faster than 3 hours. I' ll probably be faster but I want to temper my expectations so I can start out at a slow pace and get a feel for a good pace. 31k of constant up and down intimidates me and I want to start the race with my best friend who is slower than me. I'm going to pick up the pace later but won't finish at an optimal time. On March 31 2014 16:30 Arisen wrote: For an easy run, how should your breathing go? I'm running at an easy pace and i don't have any SoB when I'm done running, but during the run, the pattern of my breathing is off, and I just can't find a comfortable pattern, and it's leading to discomfort during my run (not pain or anything, I just don't feel right). I've tried a few different things. I started with 3 steps in, 3 steps out. I've tried 2in, 2 out, 4 in 4 out, 3 in 2 out, and nothing is feeling right.Are there any tricks to find a comfortable breathing pattern any of you could share? Hm, I don't pay any attention to breathing at an easy pace which is probably wrong. I notice that my breathing ends up all over the place sometimes but it's very rythmic and feels natural usually. At tempo run pace I end up with a 2/2 pattern and I think that's my usual pattern, maybe 3/3 sometimes. (That's purely anecdotal and someone else who are more qualified should commentate.) What happens if you don't pay any attention to your breathing at all if that's possible? | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On March 31 2014 16:30 Arisen wrote: For an easy run, how should your breathing go? I'm running at an easy pace and i don't have any SoB when I'm done running, but during the run, the pattern of my breathing is off, and I just can't find a comfortable pattern, and it's leading to discomfort during my run (not pain or anything, I just don't feel right). I've tried a few different things. I started with 3 steps in, 3 steps out. I've tried 2in, 2 out, 4 in 4 out, 3 in 2 out, and nothing is feeling right.Are there any tricks to find a comfortable breathing pattern any of you could share? 99% you are just massively over-thinking things and in your own head wierding yourself out. Do you have this same thing when playing intensely in sports or while walking? Your body knows how to breath, trust it to do it's own thing. Thanks. You told me that I should target ~42minutes in my work-outs and this race gave me the confidence to do that. I want to run faster than 3 hours. I' ll probably be faster but I want to temper my expectations so I can start out at a slow pace and get a feel for a good pace. 31k of constant up and down intimidates me and I want to start the race with my best friend who is slower than me. I'm going to pick up the pace later but won't finish at an optimal time. Yea I stand by that, and still think you can run near that from the description of your runs. You can absolutely go under 44 just based off that tempo alone. As far as the 3 hour "goal" goes...I don't think it's possible for you to not go under 3 hours, considering that 10k you ran is good enough for 2:20. I don't care how hilly the course is, it won't cost you 2+ min/mile. Depending on when you leave your friend you should be shooting for at least 2:30-2:40. Do you feel any sensations in your hip? Because I occasionally feel "something" when I give in to the temptation to run a little harder than easy. Not really. Maybe a transient "wierdness" every now and then but that seems to be a mental construct more than anything. It's really easy to do that when you have been "looking" for an injury for so long. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
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Advocado
Denmark994 Posts
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