On April 02 2014 05:49 Sub40APM wrote: So I've been running about 10 km for 5-6 days a week, having gone up from 8 km per 3 days a week in Winter. In general everything is fine but I've noticed a couple of new developments I dont like. First, I feel much more vulnerable to colds, its sunny and warmish but I am sniffing -- I read that could be a byproduct of overrunning, runing my immune system. Second, I feel a weird soreness in a region between my lower stomach and my groin, its not pain but I am definitely aware that I 'feel' that area where previously I didnt. What the hell is it?
No idea what the pain is but you should consider running a little less. Recovery is as important the actual workouts. Try to add another rest day and get some more variety for your runs. Maybe one longer run and another shorter instead. Also how fast are you running. It will lead to injury if you run hard everytime. You should run the majority of you mileage with low effort.
Is your diet healthy enough? You don't need a professional athlete's diet. Just make sure to eat something else than junk food, too. Veggies and fruits are important to fight illness.
On April 04 2014 05:47 Advocado wrote: Hello TL runners. Can anyone explain how I would train effectively to run a 5 k in say 23 min ?
More information please. How much do you run? How long have you been running? Any PRs? When do you plan to run the 5k?
On April 04 2014 05:47 Advocado wrote: Hello TL runners. Can anyone explain how I would train effectively to run a 5 k in say 23 min ?
Need background first.
How much do you typically run per week? Weight/Height? Normal Easy run pace? Current race PRs?
1. I don't really follow a set schedule for running. I am normally lifting 2-3 times a week so I put running on hold for a while. Now I wanna get back into it. 2. 178 cm, 78 kg 3. Something like 10 km an hour I suppose. 4. I haven't done much in terms of PR recently so most what I have are outdated. I did 5 km in 27 some time ago though.
Okay if you have't been running much then the first thing we want to do is get you running a little more.
For now start with 2-3 days per week of 2-3 miles. Keep the pace EASY. You should feel like you could sing a few lines comfortably without gasping for breath, and that the pace itself would not be challenging if you had to run for several hours.
Something like this would be appropriate:
Week 1 - 2 runs of 20-30 minutes Week 2 - 3 runs of 20-30 minutes Week 3 - 3 runs of 30 minutes Week 4 - 3-4 runs of 20-30 minutes Week 5 - 2 run of 20 minutes Week 6 - 4 runs of 30 minutes Week 7 - 5 runs of 30 minutes Week 8 - 5-6 runs of 30 minutes
At the end of those runs once or twice a week it's a good idea to do some of what we call strides. To do this just get a roughly 100m section and run at a strong, but not quite sprint pace. If you are really a numbers guy, somewhere between 17-20s for each 100m would be good. Take a full 1-2 minute walk back recovery. Strides should NOT be hard, they are a non-stressful way to get your legs used to turning over faster. 4-6 is a good number
As far as weight goes, since you lift you may or may not have excess weight. If you do, lose it. It helps significantly. Each kg of fat you lose will make you about 2-3 seconds/km faster. So if you lost 5kg, that would translate to about 60s faster over 5k distance.
Once you are through those 8 weeks we can talk about what comes next, which is basically building a little more mileage and adding in some actual workouts.
Ran a really nice 2M race today in 11:56. The course isn't especially fast as it is gravel and has some ups/downs, usually I find what I can run here is about what I can run for a fairly flat road 5k. So basically Should be in around 18:30 shape, maybe a little better.
Pretty pleased with the race overall, as the splits were 5:56, 6:00. Could have pushed a little harder last 800 as I had a pretty big kick with 150 to go, but I was hurting pretty good. Still have trouble convincing myself in races that I can give more even when it hurts a good bit, as there almost always seems to be some in the tank as every race I can crank it hard last 100-200m. Once of these days I'll really nail it where I'm dying right to the line.
Only downside, though it makes the result "better", is that I was like asleep the first 400 and ran it in about 1:36.
I'm honestly a bit shocked to find I'm not that far off pre injury fitness...even though I am about 7 pounds heavier. Definitely feeling VERY bullish on my chances of sub 17 later in the year if I can keep eating nice and clean as I have been.
@5k plan above ^^ : why have a dip in week 5 to 2 runs? Just keeping a steady workout routine for 8 weeks will help get to the 23:00 5k pace (maybe not immediately, but eventually). Being able to do 25-30 minute runs consistently at a pace slightly faster than conversational pace would be a good indicator for 5k fitness.
have a 5k this saturday, unsure how I'll do performance wise. The past 3 weeks have been good 30 mpw average (91.7 miles in my excel sheet), but my legs have been incredibly tired during some of those runs, especially trying to do some speedish workouts or fartlek/"pick up the pace" as opposed to just 30-45 minute constant pace runs.
For instance, I tried to do a 4x1600 with whatever rest in between would feel comfortable (like 2:30) as I read that's a really good indicator of 5k pace on mar 29. On thursday march 16 I did a 3x1600 with long walking rest (5-7 min) and was able to do 5:40 for each of them. So I was hoping to essentially match that or near that, but I gave up the workout after the first run (5:40; should have tried like 6:10 but decided at ~800m I wouldn't be able to do all 4 sets) and just went for about a 3 mile jog back to my apartment.
I am hoping to get a 18:15-18:30. I had an 18:30 on a flat course about 1.5 months ago, and although this is also a flat road race is isn't essentially pancake flat and has ups and downs throughout (last race was a hill at start/end, but flat otherwise).
I should try doing strides more. Sounds like one of the best ways to get legs used to turning over faster without trashing yourself so you can still get a quality workout in the day after.
I'm making great progress, running about 30-35mpw pretty consistently now. I have a half marathon in about a month and pace wise I should be all set to run sub 1:45 maybe even under 1:40 if training goes well over the next few weeks.
@5k plan above ^^ : why have a dip in week 5 to 2 runs? Just keeping a steady workout routine for 8 weeks will help get to the 23:00 5k pace (maybe not immediately, but eventually)
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Because he has been increasing mileage steadily for 4 weeks. Having a cutback week gives the body a chance to recover some and absorb the training increase before jumping up to a higher level.
Being able to do 25-30 minute runs consistently at a pace slightly faster than conversational pace would be a good indicator for 5k fitness.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Almost anything can be used as an indicator of 5k fitness, but some are better than others. It sounds like you are describing something around marathon pace type effort when you say slightly faster than conversational pace.
have a 5k this saturday, unsure how I'll do performance wise. The past 3 weeks have been good 30 mpw average (91.7 miles in my excel sheet), but my legs have been incredibly tired during some of those runs, especially trying to do some speedish workouts or fartlek/"pick up the pace" as opposed to just 30-45 minute constant pace runs.
For instance, I tried to do a 4x1600 with whatever rest in between would feel comfortable (like 2:30) as I read that's a really good indicator of 5k pace on mar 29. On thursday march 16 I did a 3x1600 with long walking rest (5-7 min) and was able to do 5:40 for each of them. So I was hoping to essentially match that or near that, but I gave up the workout after the first run (5:40; should have tried like 6:10 but decided at ~800m I wouldn't be able to do all 4 sets) and just went for about a 3 mile jog back to my apartment.
I'm not a big fan of indicator workouts to be honest, for the purpose of getting an indication of how fast you think you can run. If you are training well you should have a good idea of what you can run, just get in there go out sane through 3k, then race the last last 2k or so.
A workout like 4x1600 with 1-2 min jog recovery (the "classic" 5k predictor if you will) is a really, really taxing effort. It's a good 5k workout, but something I would consider a once or twice a cycle level of difficulty. I'll admit I'm not really sure why you tried to go for 5:40 pace in a workout like that when your current fitness is just 5:57 pace. Thats a dramatic difference, but good on being smart enough to realize it wasn't going to happen that day and having the sense to just bag it and try again on a different day.
I don't have much to go by, but depending on how good/bad of a race that 18:30 was it's definitely possible you are ready to run something a little faster than that.
I should try doing strides more. Sounds like one of the best ways to get legs used to turning over faster without trashing yourself so you can still get a quality workout in the day after.
I'm making great progress, running about 30-35mpw pretty consistently now. I have a half marathon in about a month and pace wise I should be all set to run sub 1:45 maybe even under 1:40 if training goes well over the next few weeks.
Strides are really nice, and it's easy to just put in 4-6 of them after runs, starting at maybe mile pace and rolling on down south of 800 pace. They don't really take anything out of you and at least do something for turnover.
Sounds like the consistency is there, any workouts to report back on?
So I went out for a run the other day as it was one of the first nice enough days in Michigan where I would not freeze my ass off running outside. I ran into a problem though. I have been running on a treadmill and getting a lot better endurance. As soon as I started running outside, though; I went WAY faster than I had been training.
I have been running 12 min/mile pace on the treadmill at a 1% incline to simulate wind resistance (a tip I picked up here). Thinking back on the run, I had a stitch in my side very quickly and the run was very difficult. I realized mid run I was going too fast and tried to back way down. I had a running app running during my run, and when I looked back at it (out of 6 running intervals)
1st Interval: 8 Min/Mile pace 2nd-6th interval: ~9-10 min/Mile pace
I don't know how I was going so fast and not noticing it. I legitimately though during my later run intervals I was going slower than 12 min/mile and I was just tired from the initial interval being way too fast, but not one of the later intervals was slower than 10 mins/mile.
How can I judge how fast I'm going mid run and keep at the correct pace, especially when I can't judge how fast I'm going very well on the fly?
Arisen, judge by effort. If it's easy, your good. If it doesnt feel easy, slow down.
As far as the experience it's commom for newer runners. They tend not to have a sense of pace, and how different paces feel, and when you have run outside it has probably been in an athletic context, with is always 4 or 5 min paces...all of which make it seem like say... 8 pace, is plenty slow.
I should try doing strides more. Sounds like one of the best ways to get legs used to turning over faster without trashing yourself so you can still get a quality workout in the day after.
I'm making great progress, running about 30-35mpw pretty consistently now. I have a half marathon in about a month and pace wise I should be all set to run sub 1:45 maybe even under 1:40 if training goes well over the next few weeks.
Strides are really nice, and it's easy to just put in 4-6 of them after runs, starting at maybe mile pace and rolling on down south of 800 pace. They don't really take anything out of you and at least do something for turnover.
Sounds like the consistency is there, any workouts to report back on?
Yeah my weeks generally are looking like this more or less-
Monday and Wednesdays are my speed days, I'm doing a 2 month running/coaching program with the local running store near my house and generally we'll do some sort of a track workout on Monday, 800/1200/1600 repeats and stuff like that at around 5k pace or something. (current 5k pace is around 6:45/mile) On Wednesdays we usually do hills and/or some sort of fartlek run for 30 minutes followed by a cool down. Generally I will run about 4-5 miles each day on these two days.
Tuesday and Thursday I'll do a similar distance but at a very easy pace, these days are more just like shakeout runs. (9/mile pace or something) sometimes if I feel good I might add something to the end of one of these days.
Saturdays are my long runs, last weekend I did 10 miles at around 8:15/pace which was close to my race pace for a 10 miler I did about a month ago. It was a really hard effort a month ago but I'm starting to ease into being able to hold that and still feel pretty controlled and strong at the end. My goal is to get through my half at around that pace, May 10th at Harper's Ferry WV, I think the course is going to be pretty hilly though which is a bit scary, I don't h ave many good places to train hills in my area, I have to drive somewhere to run any decent hills.
Friday is gym day I'll do about an hour each of lifting and abs/core workouts. Sunday is usually off.
I like the training schedule overall, even if it is very 5k/10k oriented. A little more tempo work in there would be good but you can't go too wrong doing what you are doing.
I'm not sure how your 10M PR is as slow as it is. 10M in 7:30 pace should be a walk in the park for you, in fact that should be within range for a half. You won't have any difficulty running sub 8 pace in the half even if there are crazy hills.
I've always seemed to run "slower" than I should over longer distances. For some reason I scale a bit worse than average or something, maybe its partially a mental block, or maybe I just naturally am better over shorter distances but have a shitty vo2 max or something for stuff beyond 10-15 minutes.
like my 800 PR(ran last summer) was around a 2:30 which probably means I should be running sub 20 5k's with no trouble but I've never actually broken 20 minutes.
On April 09 2014 12:53 LuckyFool wrote: I've always seemed to run "slower" than I should over longer distances. For some reason I scale a bit worse than average or something, maybe its partially a mental block, or maybe I just naturally am better over shorter distances but have a shitty vo2 max or something for stuff beyond 10-15 minutes.
like my 800 PR(ran last summer) was around a 2:30 which probably means I should be running sub 20 5k's with no trouble but I've never actually broken 20 minutes.
800 especially can be run quick, especially if you have some speed. 2:30 is in line with 5:40/19:45 or so, but as would be expected for a newer runner the strength isn't their yet to run as well over 5k and up, but it won't create the massive drop off you are talking about from 5k to half.
Every now and then I get to starting my run and just feel super energetic and decide to forgo my usual distance running training and put in a 5k. Been steadily improving on time without really training specifically for it, and today I finally broke 21:30. Finished up with a 21:25 which, while I am happy with, I lost it at around 4.6km.
I was hoping to break 20 this year, and from my gains, I will probably break 21. I think 20 might be out of reach just yet without actually training for it.
On the distance side, since my HM attempts last year ended in periods of sporadic walking I was able to drop 15 minutes off my time without to much trouble(2hr7min was my best from last year). Normally I don't go the whole distance ( usually just 15k, at a nice slow 1hr20-30min pace ), so who is to say what kind of time I might produce when I eventually do my first HM of the year.
Still a few months off, but my progress over the winter has been pretty promising, I am really looking forward to this years race season. The part I am probably most happy about, is that I have been entirely symptom free for a while now, no lingering pain in the joints no knee spasms, no foot arch cramps, everything just feels so clean, it makes what I do so much more enjoyable.
One question I have for you distance guys, or runners in general I suppose, if I try to run at a 5:30/km or slower pace, my calves seem to get really tight, it feels like I have trouble going that slow in general, like if I attempt to slow down from there i end up wasting alot of energy doing so, and that I am only running from my calves and not anywhere else. Not sure if it's just a stride problem? I am 6'4 and have fairly long legs, and I try to take short quick steps, but if I run naturally it just seems that I am always going faster than that. It makes the longer runs I do a little more difficult I guess.
That's entirely mental. You can always pick up the pace with just 400 to go, so there is even more time you can shave "for free" off that 5k.
If these 5k's have just been time trials by yourself I'd be feeling very, very good about breaking 20 by the end of the year even if you don't add in the speedwork. Just getting in a good race with people to compete against will probably shave you a good 20+ seconds.
As far as the half goes, LuckyFool is just a little quicker than you right now so similar stuff applies. You could probably crack 1:40 in the half with a little bit of focus on that. Under 1:45 is a lock.
One question I have for you distance guys, or runners in general I suppose, if I try to run at a 5:30/km or slower pace, my calves seem to get really tight, it feels like I have trouble going that slow in general, like if I attempt to slow down from there i end up wasting alot of energy doing so, and that I am only running from my calves and not anywhere else. Not sure if it's just a stride problem? I am 6'4 and have fairly long legs, and I try to take short quick steps, but if I run naturally it just seems that I am always going faster than that. It makes the longer runs I do a little more difficult I guess.
Given your 5k fitness, 5:20/k should be roughly your sweet spot for easy runs. Anything slower should feel very easy. If you feel like you are running only from your calves at slower than 5:30/k you are just altering your form a little bit. Make sure you are engaging the same muscles as normal, especially the glutes.
Last little workout today before Bash the Bluffs on Saturday. Cutdown workout going 1200, 2x800, 2x400, 2x200, 2:30 jog after the 1200, 2:00 jogs after the 800s, then 90s between everything else.
4:23, 2:51, 2:48, 80, 77, 34, 32.
The two 800s were pretty tough, but the rest of it was comfortable...or at least as comfortable as you can be in a speed session.
On April 05 2014 08:22 L_Master wrote: Okay if you have't been running much then the first thing we want to do is get you running a little more.
For now start with 2-3 days per week of 2-3 miles. Keep the pace EASY. You should feel like you could sing a few lines comfortably without gasping for breath, and that the pace itself would not be challenging if you had to run for several hours.
Something like this would be appropriate:
Week 1 - 2 runs of 20-30 minutes Week 2 - 3 runs of 20-30 minutes Week 3 - 3 runs of 30 minutes Week 4 - 3-4 runs of 20-30 minutes Week 5 - 2 run of 20 minutes Week 6 - 4 runs of 30 minutes Week 7 - 5 runs of 30 minutes Week 8 - 5-6 runs of 30 minutes
At the end of those runs once or twice a week it's a good idea to do some of what we call strides. To do this just get a roughly 100m section and run at a strong, but not quite sprint pace. If you are really a numbers guy, somewhere between 17-20s for each 100m would be good. Take a full 1-2 minute walk back recovery. Strides should NOT be hard, they are a non-stressful way to get your legs used to turning over faster. 4-6 is a good number
As far as weight goes, since you lift you may or may not have excess weight. If you do, lose it. It helps significantly. Each kg of fat you lose will make you about 2-3 seconds/km faster. So if you lost 5kg, that would translate to about 60s faster over 5k distance.
Once you are through those 8 weeks we can talk about what comes next, which is basically building a little more mileage and adding in some actual workouts.
Hey - thanks for the response. Just did my first run in 30 min. Running in an urban enviroment so there's a few stops that have me just standing around watching to run. Details: km. 4.59 Km/per hour 9.18 Min per km: 6:32 Kj: 593.1
Did two rounds of short strides. Felt weird so I need to look it up a bit. Felt kinda out of breath at the end. I definitely have excess weight that I could lose, so I need to drop the after work/school snacks.
Did two rounds of short strides. Felt weird so I need to look it up a bit. Felt kinda out of breath at the end. I definitely have excess weight that I could lose, so I need to drop the after work/school snacks.
Oh, you should feel like you are breathing more at the end of a stride. What I mean by not hard is that your legs shouldn't be tying up from exertion, and you shouldn't be "hurting" during them the same way you would if you ran too hard for too long, that feeling of the lungs burning and body crying out to stop.
Breathing heavily is fine, they are borderline sprinty so that's going to require a little more breathing. Just make sure your back to normal relaxed breathing baseline before the next one.
EPT
