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On March 25 2013 07:13 Pandemona wrote:
he is on par with Vettel, Vettel is of course slightly better but there is not a million miles in it. The way Webber won Monaco last year proves he knows how to race!
What world do you live in? Mark is a great driver and a nice guy and all but Vettel is 100x a better driver than Mark will ever be....
The way he won Monaco was exactly the reason why that race is fucking horrendous as a racing event.
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On March 25 2013 07:00 baldgye wrote:
And I've no idea what your taking about with regards to Massa and Alonso, Alonso drove into the back of Vettel coming out of turn 2...
Yep I was wrong about Webber, that was Vettel (sorry, my stream was stuttering in the beginning, obviously I mixed up Redbulls in replays).
Still as for not giving Alonso breathing room:
Race Edit
He could've done better job than that imo :/
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
why is massa obligated to give alonso any room when he's got a good chance at beating him this year?
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On March 25 2013 07:33 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 07:13 Pandemona wrote:
he is on par with Vettel, Vettel is of course slightly better but there is not a million miles in it. The way Webber won Monaco last year proves he knows how to race! What world do you live in? Mark is a great driver and a nice guy and all but Vettel is 100x a better driver than Mark will ever be.... The way he won Monaco was exactly the reason why that race is fucking horrendous as a racing event.
Vettel is a slightly better driver, with a car that MUCH more suites him. Take Schumacher as an example of what happens with excellent driver with car that doesn't suit him. He was even worse than Roseberg, always running into some kind of trouble 
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On March 25 2013 07:43 Axonn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 07:33 baldgye wrote:On March 25 2013 07:13 Pandemona wrote:
he is on par with Vettel, Vettel is of course slightly better but there is not a million miles in it. The way Webber won Monaco last year proves he knows how to race! What world do you live in? Mark is a great driver and a nice guy and all but Vettel is 100x a better driver than Mark will ever be.... The way he won Monaco was exactly the reason why that race is fucking horrendous as a racing event. Vettel is a slightly better driver, with a car that MUCH more suites him. Take Schumacher as an example of what happens with excellent driver with car that doesn't suit him. He was even worse than Roseberg, always running into some kind of trouble
What are you taking about?
When Schumacher came back to F1 (which is what I assume your talking about) he had the car built to suit him by Merc and Rossberg had to adjust to make it work for him, and did...
Vettel is a long way better than Webber, if you needed any convincing you only have to look at his stint at Torro Rosso, or the three world championships, I'll let you pick on that front...
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On March 25 2013 07:42 oneofthem wrote:
why is massa obligated to give alonso any room when he's got a good chance at beating him this year?
Because Massa will never win a championship driving like this? Ferrari has clear(er) #1 driver. Massa just confirmed it with this race. And as we see all teams making orders today, wondering why Ferrari didn't do the same :/
I don't think anyone should give room to any other driver but since it always happened before, and will in future, I'm sad Alonso got the short straw. Just expressing my opinion, aren't we here for that? O.o
EDIT:
@baldgye
You really think that car was suiting Michael? Maybe they tried to do that, but they most certainly didn't achieve that. As for Vettel, hey maybe I'm hasty because I don't like him. You do have arguments. Vettel 3, Webber 0 championships. But I still think skill difference is not that big as you say it is.
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On March 25 2013 07:36 Axonn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 07:00 baldgye wrote:
And I've no idea what your taking about with regards to Massa and Alonso, Alonso drove into the back of Vettel coming out of turn 2... Yep I was wrong about Webber, that was Vettel (sorry, my stream was stuttering in the beginning, obviously I mixed up Redbulls in replays). Still as for not giving Alonso breathing room: Race EditHe could've done better job than that imo :/
You're going to criticize him being able to fight for position on the opening corners at the start of the race?
I've no idea what you want him to do, be Alonso's shield and sacrifice everything just so Alonso can be safe? That's not his job... his job is to score as many points for Ferrari as possible, he can't do that if from the moment he starts the race he has to worry about making sure he dsnt even disrupt the airflow near his team mate...
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On March 25 2013 07:49 Axonn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 07:42 oneofthem wrote:
why is massa obligated to give alonso any room when he's got a good chance at beating him this year? Because Massa will never win a championship driving like this? Ferrari has clear(er) #1 driver. Massa just confirmed it with this race. And as we see all teams making orders today, wondering why Ferrari didn't do the same :/ I don't think anyone should give room to any other driver but since it always happened before, and will in future, I'm sad Alonso got the short straw. Just expressing my opinion, aren't we here for that? O.o EDIT: @baldgye You really think that car was suiting Michael? Maybe they tried to do that, but they most certainly didn't achieve that. As for Vettel, hey maybe I'm hasty because I don't like him. You do have arguments. Vettel 3, Webber 0 championships. But I still think skill difference is not that big as you say it is.
i didn't say you couldn't express your opinion. i just questioned your opinion
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On March 25 2013 07:54 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 07:36 Axonn wrote:On March 25 2013 07:00 baldgye wrote:
And I've no idea what your taking about with regards to Massa and Alonso, Alonso drove into the back of Vettel coming out of turn 2... Yep I was wrong about Webber, that was Vettel (sorry, my stream was stuttering in the beginning, obviously I mixed up Redbulls in replays). Still as for not giving Alonso breathing room: Race EditHe could've done better job than that imo :/ You're going to criticize him being able to fight for position on the opening corners at the start of the race? I've no idea what you want him to do, be Alonso's shield and sacrifice everything just so Alonso can be safe? That's not his job... his job is to score as many points for Ferrari as possible, he can't do that if from the moment he starts the race he has to worry about making sure he dsnt even disrupt the airflow near his team mate...
If you think about it, yes. Massa wasn't anyway near for contesting championship nor getting large quantities of points consistently since his accident. Contrary to Alonso who always sneaked the car few positions forward than it's supposed to be. Vettel did win 2 championships by small point difference. If this season turns to be 3rd because Alonso is few points short, Massa could've negated it by acting as shield. Why not? 
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On March 25 2013 07:49 Axonn wrote:
@baldgye
You really think that car was suiting Michael? Maybe they tried to do that, but they most certainly didn't achieve that. As for Vettel, hey maybe I'm hasty because I don't like him. You do have arguments. Vettel 3, Webber 0 championships. But I still think skill difference is not that big as you say it is.
Yeah they didn't manage it becasue Schuey was not good enough to be racing in F1 at that age. You only have to look at his performances and the actual races.
The number of drivers he took out, due to just not being good enough to compete at that level I can remember two instances just off the top of my head (Singapore and Spain)...
2010 proved how good a driver Vettel is, that season was mighty close and both Vettel and Webber had to drive out of there skins to compete despite having the best all round car, who won that title? Where was Webber towards the end?
He's a great driver, but he's not a patch on Vettel.
Skill wise he's probably less than that of Button (given how he totally fell apart at the end of 2010 so not only did he not win it, but he wasn't even really in contention) who I personally wouldn't put in the same league as Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton.
On March 25 2013 08:01 Axonn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 07:54 baldgye wrote:On March 25 2013 07:36 Axonn wrote:On March 25 2013 07:00 baldgye wrote:
And I've no idea what your taking about with regards to Massa and Alonso, Alonso drove into the back of Vettel coming out of turn 2... Yep I was wrong about Webber, that was Vettel (sorry, my stream was stuttering in the beginning, obviously I mixed up Redbulls in replays). Still as for not giving Alonso breathing room: Race EditHe could've done better job than that imo :/ You're going to criticize him being able to fight for position on the opening corners at the start of the race? I've no idea what you want him to do, be Alonso's shield and sacrifice everything just so Alonso can be safe? That's not his job... his job is to score as many points for Ferrari as possible, he can't do that if from the moment he starts the race he has to worry about making sure he dsnt even disrupt the airflow near his team mate... If you think about it, yes. Massa wasn't anyway near for contesting championship nor getting large quantities of points consistently since his accident. Contrary to Alonso who always sneaked the car few positions forward than it's supposed to be. Vettel did win 2 championships by small point difference. If this season turns to be 3rd because Alonso is few points short, Massa could've negated it by acting as shield. Why not?
Are you going to ignore his increase in performance towards the end of last year and his pretty good performance in the first two races?
If he had backed out and tried to defend Alonso he wouldn't have been in any position to challenge for points, as it was so wet he might have caused some dmg to Alonso... Alonso goes out and Massa has a wasted race trying his best to pick up any scraps he can...
Makes 0 sense... and really trying to police the actions of the drivers on the opening lap... or turns one and two is insanity and plane stupidity.
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Webber didn't do well under such neck a neck pressure and that's why he probably never will win a championship. I'm not even contesting Vettel being better I just said it's slight dif not 100x.
EDIT:
I'm not denying his improvement by any means. I'm saying he's agressive/passive always at the wrong time. He closed Alonso + as you said picked scraps from race (didn't achieve anything out of starting 2nd and being aggressive on start) = bad move. I don't see where your equation gives insanity or plain stupidity...
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On March 25 2013 08:08 Axonn wrote:
Webber didn't do well under such neck a neck pressure and that's why he probably never will win a championship. I'm not even contesting Vettel being better I just said it's slight dif not 100x
It's like saying Flash is better than X GM player on ladder. The difference is small, but that small difference is huge.
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Wasn't Webber the favourite to win the 2010 season at the last race? But then Alonso got stuck behind Petrov and Vettel got in the lead and ending up winning the championship. To say he is nowhere near vettel is unfair.
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On March 25 2013 08:08 Axonn wrote:
I'm not denying his improvement by any means. I'm saying he's agressive/passive always at the wrong time. He closed Alonso + as you said picked scraps from race (didn't achieve anything out of starting 2nd and being aggressive on start) = bad move. I don't see where your equation gives insanity or plain stupidity...
Starting a F1 car is hard, really really fucking hard... F1 drivers are the best track racers on the planet and even they struggle (hey Mark your topical in this post too).. so when you make a good start, you have to 100% maximize to every level.
You cannot justifiably question decisions made by the drivers in the opening meters of a GP so long as those actions are legal and make sense.
Massa was doing what is in his right (and what is in the right of every driver) when he moved at the start, he was aggressive, but he wasn't dangerous, he pushed, but he didn't attack and he made ground as best as the track and situation allowed.
Making Massa a shield for Alonso would make him an easy target for being over-taken at the start of a race and simply wouldn't work, it would also be dangerous and probably get Ferrari fined, as well as loose them the best 2nd driver in the world.
I'm watching it now half way though writing this and I can't even understand your argument of him being aggressive, he moved over to Alonso, Alonso didn't move and Massa moved away...
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On March 25 2013 07:43 Axonn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 07:33 baldgye wrote:On March 25 2013 07:13 Pandemona wrote:
he is on par with Vettel, Vettel is of course slightly better but there is not a million miles in it. The way Webber won Monaco last year proves he knows how to race! What world do you live in? Mark is a great driver and a nice guy and all but Vettel is 100x a better driver than Mark will ever be.... The way he won Monaco was exactly the reason why that race is fucking horrendous as a racing event. Vettel is a slightly better driver, with a car that MUCH more suites him. Take Schumacher as an example of what happens with excellent driver with car that doesn't suit him. He was even worse than Roseberg, always running into some kind of trouble
I always felt their peaks are similar, but Vettel is more consistent. Also Mark usually beats Seb in a car without optimised exhaust blowing, but Vettel is better at driving with the blowing..if that makes any sense.
It is hard to put Vettel among the great drivers, isnt it? He does seem to make the odd oopsie now and then, and with the exception of Monza '08 I can't remember him winning a race in the not-fastest car. Like last year - he has a solid season, but didnt really come into title contention before Newey finally sorted the car and Alonso lost out in two races (Grosjean, Spa - Alonso, Suzuka). In 2010 he was in with a longshot and got it and in 2011 the car was F2002-type dominant.
I mean the guy is a 3 time wc, and probably the youngest we'll ever have. He is clearly very good,
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On March 25 2013 05:46 Lonyo wrote:
In 2012 and 2010, Vettel won the championship by less than 7 points.
2 of his 3 championships have been won by less than 7 points.
Webber is, realistically speaking, not a championship contender, he simply isn't good enough.
Sure, Vettel may have gone against team orders, but Webber should be someone Vettel can respect. When he's been consistently slower in the same car, and has spent the last 2 seasons being very much the #2 driver and not looking like he's even coming close to winning a world championship, I can't feel sorry for Webber that Vettel did what's in his own best interests, and is something that is more likely to get the team another drivers world championship.
Vettel has no respect for Webber because he doesn't feel like he should, when Webber doesn't act like a proper number two in deferring to him properly, and when he's not fast enough to be considered on the same level.
The blame is with Red Bull for keeping Webber on board rather than replacing him with someone who will be the number two and/or not defining his role as the number two driver clearly.
The only reason that Vettel was close to Webber was because Webber was following team orders and conserving and Vettel was going full out. There was a big gap.
Webber has been a title contender since 2009 despite having less support in the team and a higher number of technical problems (KERS!). I think it's quite fair to say that Vettel is usually the faster of the two. There's no shame in that for Mark - he is in the twilight of his career and Vettel may not have even peaked yet!
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On March 25 2013 05:45 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 05:27 Release wrote:
Vettel's disobeying team orders was bad but Mercedes pulled complete bullshit.
I'd like to see Roseberg leave (and maybe take Perez's spot) because it's pretty clear that Hamilton is so much the #1 driver that Roseberg is going to play a #2 role more than Irvine did. I love it when people don't understand how F1 works. I wouldn't have mattered who was in front of who, they simply wanted both cars home without having tire/fuel problems and so managing both drivers was the most important thing. The same was true of Vettel and Webber, except Vettel decided that he was bigger than the team and risked his and Webber's tire wear because of it. Had Nico had a pop at Lewis, Lewis probably would have fought back for the position which could have risked both there positions and caused another stop, or even more aggressive fuel management.
Yeah but Nico was faster. They were lapping well over 5 seconds off the pace. But Nico had enough fuel to go at or faster than the pace. Nico could have passed Hamilton without any trouble because of DRS and full fuel usage. Ross's message was that Hamilton could have gone faster but was following team orders. This was not true. Hamilton could not have gone faster because he needed to save fuel in order to finish the race.
So, Ross did not "simply wanted both cars home without ..." Ross wanted both cars home with Hamilton unequivocally in front of Roseberg.
I understand F1 well enough to realize that Hamilton-Roseberg is going to be analogous to Schumi-Irvine
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This gets brought up over and over and over - and Webber didn't even like that new front wing!
On March 25 2013 06:53 Axonn wrote:
From this moment on, I believe car was designed to fit Vettel and his driving style.
If that is true, Red Bull sure failed horribly last year. Webber was a lot more at ease in the chassis at the beginning of the season.
Personally, I think Vettel did something stupid. I don't think Webber can claim the high ground here though:
“The team radioed me about four times, asking that I maintain the gap to Seb.
“But I wasn’t happy with that because you should never give up in F1, so I continued to push. If Fernando had retired on the last lap, we would have been battling for the lead.
“The team was worried about Seb and me crashing because it wanted the points for the constructors’ championship. I understand that, but I wanted points for the championship too and we proved that we can race without making contact.”
If anything, I was happy to see Red Bull purposefully favor Webber, and how negatively they reacted to Vettel's move. I like to see the team stand up for Webber.
Imagine how interesting the end of the race would have been if team orders were illegal? Rosberg would surely have passed Hamilton and tried to catch up on the RBRs. We would have seen a fight between the Red Bulls, hopefully without the drama.
Regardless, I think Vettel will regret his move for a long time.
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Ross brawn is a really scary dude. If i were rosberg, i would immediately put 5 seconds between me and hamilton after that orders. Brrrr deathchill
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No... What we would have seen is rosberg try to fight Lewis them both to suffer massive tire dmg rosberg to have eventually gotten past but then been unable to catch the red bulls...
There was a reason for the team orders
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EPT
