The links are very helpful for cleans, and the slow motion youtube video very helpful.
Getting under the bar used to be a crap shoot for me, and I compensated by just trying to get the bar higher. The hip thrust and shrug gets me under very naturally though.
I have two questions/problems. The big one, in trying to get a lot of hip action on the 3rd pull, my transitions feel very choppy and I lose my 1st stage momentum, which previously provided maybe 75% of my power. To really get the bar into a position where I can push out with my hips, in the second stage I feel I have to pull pretty hard backwards, which is awkward and slows the movement down because I have to redirect it.
Second, how do you reconcile pushing out with your hips and keeping the bar close to your body? The further you push out the bar, the further it is from your body when you swing it up. A lot of the videos don't look like they're pushing out that much.
On January 26 2012 22:45 KOVU wrote: How often did you guys stretch to achieve the flexiblity you are at now? I spend around 30 minutes, sometimes more, stretching every day and I still have significant "buttwink" (posterior pelvic tilt would be the correct term I guess) in the bottom of the squat and front squat position.
And that blog was really good Catch, thanks for posting!
I dont really stretch, i just warm up a bit and do my oly lifts (snatch, cj, fs, bs) I've always been pretty flexible (not trying to be a dick) though so you might need to do some additional stretching, i.e. Mobility WOD (google it) I wouldn't worry too much about butt wink. This guys got butt wink and i think he's doing alright
On January 28 2012 18:45 igotmyown wrote: The links are very helpful for cleans, and the slow motion youtube video very helpful.
Getting under the bar used to be a crap shoot for me, and I compensated by just trying to get the bar higher. The hip thrust and shrug gets me under very naturally though.
I have two questions/problems. The big one, in trying to get a lot of hip action on the 3rd pull, my transitions feel very choppy and I lose my 1st stage momentum, which previously provided maybe 75% of my power. To really get the bar into a position where I can push out with my hips, in the second stage I feel I have to pull pretty hard backwards, which is awkward and slows the movement down because I have to redirect it.
Second, how do you reconcile pushing out with your hips and keeping the bar close to your body? The further you push out the bar, the further it is from your body when you swing it up. A lot of the videos don't look like they're pushing out that much.
Hope that makes sense.
If you look at the vid i just posted, the first pull isn't really that important in terms of speed. IMO the first pull merely puts the bar in position for the second pull. I feel like you're thinking about the lift all wrong in terms of bar position. First pull should be "sweeping" the bar into your lap (via lats) then you should extend hips till you are roughly vertical/slightly past vertical, at which point you break the arms and drop/pull yourself under the bar. at no point should you be "pushing" the bar away from you, merely driving it vertically while getting under. This all obviously occurs in about half a second so you have to begin to tell yourself to descend before you even finish your first pull otherwise you wont get under fast enough due to the .2 seconds it takes for your brain to send the signal. Basically, it's fucking impossible to lift perfectly. I have recently been doing a lot of work from the high hang to work solely on getting under the bar, flattening my "S-curve" and breaking my arms at the proper time.
Don't think about the 2nd pull and 3rd pull separately, honestly they should blend together unnoticeably. Really, I dont think about the lift in terms of separate pulls at all really. When it's all said and done you start in a squat and you try to get back to that same squat position as soon as possible, just with the bar on your shoulders (or above you for a snatch) instead of on the floor. Train your form with light weights and when it gets heavier think less and don't let your mind get in way of your body. Muscle memory from your light weights should take over (over time). although i know I and dimsum and others have been coached very differently, this is just one philosophy.
The most difficult part about oly lifting is that there are so many opposing actions that have to happen in rapid succession. Almost every other sport focuses mostly on extension of the muscles (track and field, kicking, punching, shooting a basketball, swing a bat, etc) where in oly lifting you must extend and retract almost simultaneously. The more you train the better you get at this.
So given the advice and the dirty dancing video I've been trying to practice pushing the bar vertically with my hips with low weights (45 to 135 lbs, depending how bad my form looks)
Given how low the weight is, I'm trying to use solely my hips for power and demoting my shrugging/arms to more as a guide. That's not to say I'll do that with higher weights (power cleaning 135 with mostly arms isn't too difficult), but if my hips can't even provide enough power to propel a naked olympic bar above my shoulders, I'm not going to do any better than before.
Now I've been told by different people that I'm swinging the bar too far away from my body. However, they say it looks "better" when I do 135, because more weight means less translation. On the other hand, when they clean they never touch the bar to their hips and move the bar almost straight up, which coincidentally I is the way I did it before i saw this thread.
So, this vertically push with the hips, are you physically transferring a lot of the force through your hips to the bar (which I never used to do), or is most of the vertical displacement simply transferred through your arms/back? The physics of the former will always have some horizontal displacement unless your hips start pushing when your things are parallel to the ground, although maybe it's let's noticeable with higher weights.
And on a less important note, I find I can't sweep the bar smoothly if I start the clean with my back too upright, because the backwards pull coincides with my hips/back straightening to an upright position.
On January 29 2012 15:52 igotmyown wrote: So given the advice and the dirty dancing video I've been trying to practice pushing the bar vertically with my hips with low weights (45 to 135 lbs, depending how bad my form looks)
Given how low the weight is, I'm trying to use solely my hips for power and demoting my shrugging/arms to more as a guide. That's not to say I'll do that with higher weights (power cleaning 135 with mostly arms isn't too difficult), but if my hips can't even provide enough power to propel a naked olympic bar above my shoulders, I'm not going to do any better than before.
Now I've been told by different people that I'm swinging the bar too far away from my body. However, they say it looks "better" when I do 135, because more weight means less translation. On the other hand, when they clean they never touch the bar to their hips and move the bar almost straight up, which coincidentally I is the way I did it before i saw this thread.
So, this vertically push with the hips, are you physically transferring a lot of the force through your hips to the bar (which I never used to do), or is most of the vertical displacement simply transferred through your arms/back? The physics of the former will always have some horizontal displacement unless your hips start pushing when your things are parallel to the ground, although maybe it's let's noticeable with higher weights.
And on a less important note, I find I can't sweep the bar smoothly if I start the clean with my back too upright, because the backwards pull coincides with my hips/back straightening to an upright position.
Yes there are different ways to drive the bar up. Whether it is a "bang" or "brush" is up to you. As long as the bar keeps in contact with your hips, then it is fine.
I could be mistaken but it's almost like you're pulling the bar, then bending your arms, then finishing your pull (straightening your arms again), then getting under the bar. Perhaps more sweeping into your hips instead of bending your arms then pulling under?
Yeah, I have been trying to work that in. I pulled on that bar way too early. I was working on that after my workout with high pulls + power clean. I felt that I was sweeping the bar in better. I'm getting tired of m teammate saying my form sucks.
On January 30 2012 09:04 AoN.DimSum wrote: Yeah, I have been trying to work that in. I pulled on that bar way too early. I was working on that after my workout with high pulls + power clean. I felt that I was sweeping the bar in better. I'm getting tired of m teammate saying my form sucks.
Haha it's still way better than mine. I think training with bud for 4 months made me realize i wont deserve a compliment on my form for another couple years lol.
So you drop your hips before you push up with them? That explains the vertical push, but makes it more complicated. How far do you want to drop?
How far up do you pull the bar relative to your legs before you push with your hips? If I keep my arms straight, it's a quarter of the length down my thigh.
On January 30 2012 11:23 igotmyown wrote: So you drop your hips before you push up with them? That explains the vertical push, but makes it more complicated. How far do you want to drop?
How far up do you pull the bar relative to your legs before you push with your hips? If I keep my arms straight, it's a quarter of the length down my thigh.
Double knee bend (google it) lowers your hips into a position for you to drive the bar up.
I wouldnt worry about dropping your hips, that is done naturally. Try to get the bar to your upper thigh before you drive your hips. If you have longer arms, you might need to bend your arms to get to that position. I would need to see a video first.
All this talk about proper bar path and technique made me think about my own for the past week and luckily, I saw my coach for the first time in a month today. He ripped me a new one after seeing me snatch. Turns out trying to snatch with stiff elbows doesn't let the bar travel very closely to me no matter how I move my hips =p
On February 03 2012 02:45 Vanger wrote: Had a very tiring workout today. C&J for numerous sets of three take it out of me. Here is a 90kg C&J at the end of the workout
Pretty decent, with technique work you could be putting up ~120. You're basically powercleaning 90kg and then doing a full squat, where as if you look at dimsums vid he basically catches it below parallel. Jerk needs a lot of work, it's basically pure strength at this point.
On February 08 2012 01:56 Vanger wrote: Thanks for the feedback. My c&j pr is 100. Doubt i could put up 120 because my front squat 1 rm is 110. I guess i just pull kinda high
But i definitely have to push myself more aggressively under the bar in the jerk.
Yeah you definitely pull very high. Which means you could put on more weight and still pull it high enough to get under it! It's entirely possible to have a higher clean than your FS due to the mechanics of the clean.
I'm at work, and I had to go into this "closed section" to try the movement in the first video haha. Such a good move, I can do it pretty fast, and for sure, I know where the problem is in my clean.
Very good videos, recommended for everyone trying OLY Lifting .
I've been training to do proper cleans recently but run into an issue, and I think it might be a body thing. I have a friend who has been doing them for a long time, and he rests the bar on his chest, but I physically can't get the bar to my chest and keep my hands on it. I don't have big biceps, not that it should matter really. I've tried twisting my shoulders in all sorts of ways and not only is it agonising in my shoulder but I then hit the bar on those two boney bits at the bottom of your neck (painful!!!!).
I think I may look into getting a session with a personal trainer or something to see if I can do it. At the moment when I'm doing it all the weight is on my arms which I've heard is very bad.
EPT
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